Beyond the Pit - Argument Thread

Pitboss Maya · July 4, 2008, 17:15

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No OOC posts that I remember, so Maya could take a leaf out of your book here.

My OOC is only in reply to OOC directed at me.

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Was he stronger than you because he cheated?

This is such a weak excuse for what happened. The real deal is that Corea had next to no defences, stupidly attacked at a disadvantage, then didn't even bother to evacuate it's worker.

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I would personally let go of the Copper.

It is gold, and you should.

Pitboss Korea · July 4, 2008, 18:34

Wow. Thanks for your support guys.

If anybody comes along now with some BS about my "faith in the community" they can just read through the last few posts.

The bottom line is I won't accept being put at a huge disadvantage because of someone else's cheap tactics. If he had written up a story to go along with his original attack and legitimately grabbed my worker in the process (not poached it when I was obviously not acknowledging the legitimacy of his action), then I would have played along in character. This includes letting him take the gold that's FIVE SQUARES FROM MY CAPITAL.

I don't accept that the invasion was a legitimate part of this game. I don't accept that his grabbing the worker was a legitimate part of this game. I don't accept that the 10+ turns of disadvantage that I've been without it (despite his agreeing to give it back!) are a legitimate part of this game.

This is why I want the issue to be resolved OOC and why I cannot accept just bending over and roleplaying along.

Rasputin · July 4, 2008, 20:30

all i can say is chooseyour playmates wisely. i certainly will if i ever return to MP gaming. At end of this game when we find out who hte mayans are, i will NEVER EVER play in a multi player game with them again.

They cheated folks, thry broke a rule of no double moving, then whilst the Koreans awaited the communitiys resolution of the cheating the cheater then stole a worker.

the community resolved that the worker shoudl be given back, this was not an in game agreement this was posted in her the organisation thread. It was agreed that this was fair.

over ten turns later the worker has not been given back.

Then people claim because the mmayan are stronger in game that the koreans need to obey their demands for a border.

if the mayans hadnt cheated this would never have arisen. The korenas would b egrowing and being competetive now.

As i said, we hav elearnt a lesson here, learnt the character of the mayan player, and i for one will never play in a game with him again. If any one has any DIPLO credibility left in them they too should not play with him. his OOC stories have changed from the original, :My explorer was attacked: to wehre we find he cheated by using a double move, caused the korean to panic and waste a warrier in attack, then whilst the community sat and wasted time, he stole a worker.

I hope all players remember this through out the game, but i fear it too late already.

Pitboss Maya · July 4, 2008, 21:15

Ok, I think it is now time to share some DIPLO knowledge with others.

How to play Diplogames like a Pro.

There are three types of diplo players.

1. The Noob
2. The Pro
3. The Veteran

The noob belives that there are no winners in this format. They think actions and stories should take fun into consideration first, winning second. They belive that "fairness" should and will rule the day. They have faith in the community to bring about justice. They honestly think whining OOC is taboo. They are clueless to the behind the scenes politics and manipulations of the Veteran players.

The pro realizes that there is no fun in being a vassle or not having power in game. All actions have the sole purpose of furthering their civilization, and stories are a means of justifiying said actions. They realize that "fairness" is for the most part subjective, and should be tested often. They realize that the only way anyone is going to step in and help another civ is if it benifits their own civ. They realize that whineing OOC is essential. They are wise to the manipulations of the Veteran players.

The Veteran enters a game expecting to come out on top (or close to it). Nothing infuriates a Vet more then the idea that they may wind up a mediocore civ or God forbid near the bottom. If a non-vet bests a vet, they must have somehow cheated. Vets like to keep the rules loose for this reason, realizing that rule interpertation is an invaluable tool that only they weild. They mention how whining OOC is looked down upon, but only to add emphisis to the ligitimacy of their argument when they do it (ie. what happened to ME is so unfair that I MUST say something OOC although it pains me to do so

). The balance between the Vets is delicate however, they both fear and back each other up at the same time. Above all, they promote the ideas that that are often held as truths by noobs. This maintains their advantage because the less people who play like they do, the less competition. Once your eyes are open to all of this, it is quite entertaining actually to observe opinions about the same situation change depending on who is involved.

Once you realize it is their game and we only play in it, you have busted your cherry.

I'm sure I'll catch alot of flack for writing this truth. The Vets will wholesale deny it, and the noobs won't want to belive it. Some however will know EXACTLY what I am talking about.

PS: I don't mean to make it sound like the Vets all get together and conspire. It is more of a passive thing. There are also exceptions among their ranks with regards to my observations of the group as a whole. Toni for instance generally has a very non-bias view of ingame situations. This isn't to say however that he isn't one of the most sneaky in other areas.

Rasputin · July 4, 2008, 22:11

And then there are the wannabes..

they can paly civ4 well, often winning in a normal civ4MP, but they imagine thmesleves able to play DIPLO the same way.

Yes this is our game, the DIPLO format founded by the originals was back when it was played in Civ2 . If you wanna play this style then paly the style. It is a community thing.

Yes the usual winners like to brag about winning, about how well they played, but the biggest buzz for any DIPLO player is the interaction.

Many Original DIPLO games never finsihed, there were no winners, as the game just faded away. Not till recently have DIPLO games actually been played through til end.

So yo wannbes, you can cheat or do whatever you want to break rules to beat the "VET" DIplo players but in the end DIPLO is a community and it not for everyone.

CyberShy · July 4, 2008, 22:18

This thread has been created for the sole purpose of argumentation.
People who are in the Beyond the Pit game can argumentate their issues here.

Have fun.

CyberShy · July 4, 2008, 22:38

@Japan: I also respected the Mayas, despite their faux pas with the double move (which I had forgiven them).
I was completely suprised by his post (moved to 'argumentation thread' where he suddenly started to 'group' and 'insult' all players.

Maybe it's the language, earlier today he was replying to deity and I got the idea that he misunderstood deity for 100%. deity was backing him up, but then the maya started to react in a negative manner to him....

anyway, enough with this OOC fighting.
Solve the thing in-game.

My civ won't accept the Mayas not giving the worker back.
My civ won't like a stubborn corea either.

Pitboss Japan · July 4, 2008, 22:46

why can't we all just agree that that mayans and raz are both right in some wierd way.

Rasputin · July 4, 2008, 23:08

i guess we both right cause i am the mayans too, playing under my double login ....

Pitboss Maya · July 4, 2008, 23:23

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didnt relaise people would alter the way they play due to a fun vote.

You REALLY need to read my guide on how to be a pro.

Rasputin · July 4, 2008, 23:24

no i prefer being a VET !!!!

Pitboss Maya · July 4, 2008, 23:29

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no i prefer being a VET

That is funnier then the one about Deity backing me up against himself.

Rasputin · July 4, 2008, 23:31

Veterans are vets by length of service.....

as one of the longest playing Diplo gamer here i must be a VET

Pitboss Japan · July 4, 2008, 23:49

no ur not i know who the mayans are and they aint you

Rasputin · July 4, 2008, 23:57

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Originally posted by Pitboss Japan
no ur not i know who the mayans are and they aint you

probably why you so supportive of their actions then.

Pitboss Japan · July 5, 2008, 00:09

look pro, vet, noob whatever we need to just forgive and move on. i know everyone is pissed but the mayans are saying but if you put aside you pride you would see that a small part of what the mayans said was true and what ras said is also true. i think it should be up to each indavidual to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong. lets just drop this before the rift that is growing between us all so early in the game.

Pitboss Korea · July 5, 2008, 00:25

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Originally posted by CyberShy
Once again, Corea, Maya didn't cheat.
He ignored/forgot about a rule, but didn't got any advantage from that.
You got into problems when you attacked his warrior and lost.

You should go In Character and discuss the borders with the mayans.
As soon as you start doing that the community will back you up in your request to get back your worker.

We HAD an agreement. He has yet to honor it. Where is the community in backing that up?

I'm more than happy to come to a fair settlement of this issue. I just have absolutely zero confidence in Maya's ability to bargain in good faith. I don't have much confidence in the community's willingness to make him do so, either. We'll see how it goes.

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But remember that you didn't lose your worker because anybody cheated. You just lost it because you didn't defend it very well.

This point is absolutely not true and, frankly, insulting. I left the worker sitting there because I was contesting his double-move. He used that as an opportunity to gain an advantage. That's what this whole argument has been about, and moving posts to another thread won't make that disappear.

Pitboss Japan · July 5, 2008, 00:25

i dont agree with him but i see where he is comming from. to tell the truth i agree more with u then him but at the same time i'm not blind to what is going on at the same time.

deity · July 5, 2008, 05:14

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Originally posted by Pitboss Maya
My OOC is only in reply to OOC directed at me.

This is such a weak excuse for what happened. The real deal is that Corea had next to no defences, stupidly attacked at a disadvantage, then didn't even bother to evacuate it's worker.

It is gold, and you should.

I should!

I will.

I love Maya the player

deity · July 5, 2008, 05:18

So a bastard pro picked a Fin Civ?

Kill him.

deity · July 5, 2008, 05:59

I just read the arguing thread and must say I'm totally confused.

I'm surprised that we are hung up on who is a pro etc. And I think some players are making IC decisions based on OOC assumptions - right or wrong.

And I don't understand the under current of, what looks like, bad feeling based on these assumptions

Have I done something wrong? Maya have an attitude here that is not in game.

And if deity is Corea he acts one way; if Raz is Corea he will act another way??!!