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Emperor
Rockville, MD
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Oct 1999
time: 17:39
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Ok, I compiled a list of all the civs & leaders used in Civ4 diplogames (not counting the ill-fated first two epic of man games):
England (Elizabeth) (Financial, Philosophic) - Deity
England (Elizabeth) (Financial, Philosophic) - LzPrst, Dacole, AI
England (Elizabeth) (Financial, Philosophic) - OzzyKP
England (Elizabeth) (Financial, Philosophic) - trev
England (Victoria) (Financial, Imperialistic) - MMC, Glohithia
England (Elizabeth) (Financial, Philosophic) - OmnipotentTrout
England (Elizabeth) (Financial, Philosophic) - vilemerchant
England (Victoria) (Financial, Imperialistic) - MMC
Inca (Huayna Capac) (Aggressive, Financial) - NicodaMax, condor223
Inca (Huayna Capac) (Industrial, Financial) - Anonymous
Inca (Huayna Capac) (Industrial, Financial) - Arvcan
Inca (Huayna Capac) (Industrial, Financial) - CyberShy
Inca (Huayna Capac) (Industrial, Financial) - Toni
Inca (Huayna Capac) (Industrial, Financial) - Dangime, Franski, Levi_the_Oracle, Dangime, kbarrett
Inca (Huayna Capac) (Industrial, Financial) - Anonymous
Germany (Bismarck) (Industrious, Expansive) - LzPrst, Omnipotent Trout
Germany (Bismarck) (Industrious, Expansive) - Frank Johnson
Germany (Bismarck) (Industrious, Expansive) - Toni
Germany (Bismarck) (Industrious, Expansive) - Frank Johnson, AI
Germany (Bismarck) (Industrious, Expansive) - deity
Russia (Catherine) (Creative, Financial) - KunojiLym
Russia (Catherine) (Creative, Financial) - Schtix
Russia (Stalin) (Aggressive, Industrious) - Anonymous
Russia (Stalin) (Aggressive, Industrious) - Mr. Lincoln, LzPrst, Mr. Lincoln
Russia (Peter) (Expansive, Philosophical) - Anonymous
America (Washington) (Organized, Financial) - CyberShy
America (Washington) (Charismatic, Expansive) - Anonymous
America (Lincoln) (Charismatic, Philosophical) - CyberShy
America (Roosevelt) (Industrious, Organized) - dacole
America (Roosevelt) (Industrious, Organized) - Anonymous
India (Gandhi) (Industrious, Spiritual) - OzzyKP
India (Gandhi) (Philosophical, Spiritual) - kbarrett
India (Gandhi) (Philosophical, Spiritual) - CyberShy
India (Asoka) (Organized, Spiritual) - OzzyKP
Mali (Mansa Musa) (Financial, Spiritual) - Anonymous
Mali (Mansa Musa) (Financial, Spiritual) - Glohithia
Mali (Mansa Musa) (Financial, Spiritual) - LzPrst
France (Louis XIV) (Industrious, Creative) - NPDragon, carved up by world and eliminated
France (Napoleon) (Charismatic, Organized) - Colonel_Treize, Conquistador45, AI
France (Napoleon) (Charismatic, Organized) - Anonymous
Carthage (Hannibal) (Charismatic, Financial) - The_Aussie_Lurker
Carthage (Hannibal) (Charismatic, Financial) - Subs, Rykoffe, (eliminated and handed over to Vikings)
Carthage (Hannibal) (Charismatic, Financial) - Beta
Egypt (Ramses) (Industrious, Spiritual) - condor223
Egypt (Ramses) (Industrious, Spiritual) - Nolan
Egypt (Ramses) (Industrious, Spiritual) - condor223
Rome (Julius Ceasar) (Imperialist, Organized) - AI, Moker (carved up by world and eliminated)
Rome (Augustus) (Imperialist, Industrial) - Beta
Rome (Julius Ceasar) (Imperialist, Organized) - Anonymous
Vikings (Ragnar Lodbrok) (Aggressive, Financial) - LzPrst, Rykoffe
Vikings (Ragnar Lodbrok) (Aggressive, Financial) - Dangime
Vikings (Ragnar Lodbrok) (Aggressive, Financial) - Anonymous
Korea (Wang Kong) (Protective, Financial) - Deity
Korea (Wang Kong) (Protective, Financial) - KunojiLym
Korea (Wang Kong) (Protective, Financial) - Anonymous
Spain (Isabella) (Spiritual, Expansive) - TheCapo
Spain (Isabella) (Spiritual, Expansive) - Conquistador45
Spain (Isabella) (Spiritual, Expansive) - Anonymous
Mongolia (Genghis Khan) (Aggressive, Expansive) - AI, carved up by world and eliminated
Mongolia (Kublai Khan) (Aggressive, Creative) - Anonymous
Arabs (Saladin) (Philosophical, Spiritual) - CyberShy
Arabs (Saladin) (Protective, Spiritual) - OzzyKP
China (Qin Shi Huang) (Industrious, Financial) - condor223, Frank 'Dangime' Johnson
China (Qin Shi Huang) (Industrious, Protective) - KunojiLym
Ottomans (Mehmed II) (Expansive, Organized) - Deity, Conquistador45
Ottomans (Suleiman) (Philosophical, Imperialist) - Anonymous
Holland (Willem van Oranje) (Creative, Financial) - Toni
Holland (Willem van Oranje) (Creative, Financial) - Anonymous
Celts (Brennus) (Spiritual, Charismatic) - OmnipotentTrout, AI, dacole, AI
Celts (Brennus) (Spiritual, Charismatic) - Anonymous
Persia (Cyrus I) (Charismatic, Imperialist) - Toni
Persia (Cyrus I) (Charismatic, Imperialist) - Anonymous
Portugal (Joao II) (Expansive, Imperialist) - Deity
Portugal (Joao II) (Expansive, Imperialist) - Anonymous
Native America (Sitting Bull) (Philosophical, Protective) - AI, Deity Dude, Asmodeous
Native America (Sitting Bull) (Philosophical, Protective) - Anonymous
Holy Roman Empire (Charlemagne) (Protective, Imperialist) - Anonymous
Holy Roman Empire (Charlemagne) (Protective, Imperialist) - Anonymous
Zulu (Shaka) (Aggressive, Expansive) - Levi, Deity Dude, Pinchak, AI (carved up by world and eliminated)
Ethiopia (Zara Yaqob) (Creative, Organized) - The_Aussie_lurker
Byzantine (Justinian I) (Spiritual, Imperialist)- Nolan
Greece (Pericles) (Creative, Philosophical) - Anonymous
Japan (Tokugawa) (Aggressive, Protective) - Anonymous
Khmer (Suryavarman) (Creative, Expansive) - Anonymous
Maya (Pacal II) (Expansive, Financial) - Anonymous
As you can see, some traits are more popular than others:
Financial---------34
Industrial--------23
Spiritual----------18
Expansive--------17
Philosophical-----15
Imperialistic-------13
Charismatic-------11
Aggressive--------10
Organized---------10
Protective----------10
Creative-----------9
For the purposes of this new Pitboss game, I'd recommend banning the financial and industrial traits just to get some more variety in civs. At the very least I think we should ban Elizabeth, Huana Capac and Bismark since they are chosen altogether too much in these games.
Variety is good.
These stats include the following games:
History of the World V
Civilization IV
History of the World 6
Civilization IV
History of the World VII
Civilization IV: Warlords
History of the World IX
Civilization IV: Warlords
History of the World VIII
Civilization IV: Warlords
History of the World XI
Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword
History of the World XII
Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword
Beyond the Pit
Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword
Last edited by OzzyKP on 21-08-2008 at 15:12
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Emperor
Parrot Towers, Killcare Heights, NSW, Australia
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May 1999
time: 10:39
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Interesting oz.
I think we might try to force a few changes, agree. But might be hard to agree on the actual restriction. If we get around 18 players it might take care of itself.
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Emperor
Parrot Towers, Killcare Heights, NSW, Australia
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May 1999
time: 10:39
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And I can't believe Joao isn't more popular - particularly on Terra maps.
And am very surprised about the creative trait being so low - philo too, yeah.
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Emperor
Parrot Towers, Killcare Heights, NSW, Australia
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May 1999
time: 10:39
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You can't really ban particular traits as that wipes out too many choices - definitely agree with Pincak on that.
I think we should ban Hyuana perhaps but the more I think about it let's just leave it be.
The fact that ozzy has drawn our attention to this is enough to encourage free thinking and choices on the matter without introducing draconian restrictions.
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Emperor
Parrot Towers, Killcare Heights, NSW, Australia
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May 1999
time: 10:39
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If you look at individuals choices and see that they vary their choice over time then that's good, e.g deity:
England (Elizabeth) (Financial, Philosophic) - Deity
Germany (Bismarck) (Industrious, Expansive) - deity
Korea (Wang Kong) (Protective, Financial) - Deity
Ottomans (Mehmed II) (Expansive, Organized) - Deity
Portugal (Joao II) (Expansive, Imperialist) - Deity
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Emperor
Rockville, MD
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Oct 1999
time: 17:39
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by CyberShy
code:
America Franklin D. Roosevelt
Celts Brennus
England Victoria
France Louis XIV
Greece Pericles
Inca Huayna Capac
India Asoka
Japan Tokugawa
Korea Wang Kon
Mali Mansa Musa
Maya Pacal II
Native America Sitting Bull
Persia Cyrus
Rome Julius Caesar
Russia Peter
Spain Isabella
Viking Ragnar
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FIN_:_6
SPI_:_4
EXP_:_3
IMP_:_3
ORG_:_3
PHI_:_3
PRO_:_3
IND_:_3
AGR_:_2
CHA_:_2
CRE_:_2
FIN is a little overpresent, but seems to be a list of great diversity. Only 3 IND, and no trait-monopoly. Nice pick everyone !  |
Ok, still have an excess of Financial, but at least the others are all in balance. Great to see less IND too.
Pacal, Tokugawa, Ashoka, Peter and Perecles are all making their diplogame debut with this pitboss game.
Sitting Bull, Cyrus, Caesar, Victoria, Brennus, Roosevelt, Louis XIV are all being picked for only the second time each.
Wang Kon 
Isabella
Ragnar
Mansa Musa
Huayna Capac (7th appearance in a diplogame...)
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King
John the Mad
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Apr 2001
time: 00:39
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let's play it out. who knows, maybe it was Raz, that chose Inca. but it is a very interesting analysis. I'm not 100% sure though if Inca are so great. consider this.
Inca techs to classical and starts building a wonder. nearby Aztecs tech up a bit and then use the same amount of time chopping poprushing and producing axemen.
Great Wall, meet Horde of Axemen.
a bit of ambition and balls will tend to keep wonderwhores down. we also have to keep in mind that Financial seems to be a very common trait, not to mention the most generic and easy to take advantage of. it's practically a passive bonus, as compared to Aggressive which is a bonus that you have to utilize actively way more. the same can be said for numerous other traits.
here's the clue, you have to play to your strengths. if your civ is aggressive or protective, you should be fighting wars. if you're philosophical, make better use of specialists. spiritual can be extremely neat, cheap temples and free vassalage for every war. expansive, throw out those workers and make sure you have granaries early. the advantage of Financial is that you don't have to play to financial's strength, cause it is so generic.
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Emperor
Rockville, MD
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Oct 1999
time: 17:39
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You are right, rushing wonder builders can certainly be done. But how often does it happen? Very rarely.
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King
John the Mad
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Apr 2001
time: 00:39
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who's to blame for that? the industrious civ for utilizing their advantage? or the slackers who could gain gold and more from raiding their lands?
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Emperor
Rockville, MD
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Oct 1999
time: 17:39
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The slackers. But that is a lot harder to change than by making rules about what traits certain people can have. It is an ingrained strategic mindset that is tough to change in these games. Players look poorly on aggressors. It gives you a bad rep and makes finding future alliances and friends more difficult. Plus everyone wants someone else to topple the leader, no one wants to do it themselves because there is too much risk. So no one does it.
Quite obviously the benefits of building a library greatly outweigh that of building a swordsman or two. So if you can play nice diplomatically with your neighbors and deemphasize the military you will be more successful. An early war against an opponent may cripple them long term, but it'll cripple you long term as well. So those who can avoid wars are the ones who excel in the game.
There are lots and lots of reasons why people don't attack. Generally attacking is not in their best interest.
That would be the best thing to address. But it isn't as easy as stopping certain players from using certain overpowered traits.
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Deity
Between Coast and Mountains
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May 1999
time: 09:39
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quote:
Originally posted by LzPrst
let's play it out. who knows, maybe it was Raz, that chose Inca. but it is a very interesting analysis. I'm not 100% sure though if Inca are so great. consider this. |
No never played as inca , dont know why. I guess shows my lack of understanding.
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Deity
Between Coast and Mountains
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May 1999
time: 09:39
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quote:
Originally posted by OzzyKP
The slackers. But that is a lot harder to change than by making rules about what traits certain people can have. It is an ingrained strategic mindset that is tough to change in these games. Players look poorly on aggressors. It gives you a bad rep and makes finding future alliances and friends more difficult. Plus everyone wants someone else to topple the leader, no one wants to do it themselves because there is too much risk. So no one does it.
Quite obviously the benefits of building a library greatly outweigh that of building a swordsman or two. So if you can play nice diplomatically with your neighbors and deemphasize the military you will be more successful. An early war against an opponent may cripple them long term, but it'll cripple you long term as well. So those who can avoid wars are the ones who excel in the game.
There are lots and lots of reasons why people don't attack. Generally attacking is not in their best interest.
That would be the best thing to address. But it isn't as easy as stopping certain players from using certain overpowered traits. |
Wars are not done a lot in diplo for a few reasons . the biggest of these is the traditional Vicotry Conditions. With space race still left in as a Victory, it means avoiding wars is a smart way to ensure you can tech your way to apollo and then utilize your econmy to produce the space ship parts without fear of having to a protracted war to support.
Other victoy conditions also support a non aggresive stance.
I have never palyed a MP Civ4 game so this will be interesting to see the differences, but in SP i have found i have won some games without ever having a single war. Just building away and launching a space ship or a Diplomatic UN victory.
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King
John the Mad
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Apr 2001
time: 00:39
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I suspect very much that this game will have plenty of war. I believe it should. There are of course risks, but the rewards are of course great. An important detail is of course that no war should leave a player wiped out, or unplayable. However, smashing an opponent and then turning him into a key ally, supporting him to make him a valuable partner is actually quite good business.
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King
of the wet little isle known as Britain
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Mar 2006
time: 23:39
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Considering it looks like England has been in more Civ4 Diplogames than any other civ, I'm surprised that I'm the only player to ever pick Victoria. Although in retrospect, I think Churchill might have supported my playstyle a little better.
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Emperor
Rockville, MD
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Oct 1999
time: 17:39
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Ok, I did a tally of the traits in Beyond the Pit and added all the info to the first post. Traits in this game are:
Financial---------5
Expansive--------5
Imperialistic-------5
Protective----------4
Philosophical-----3
Organized---------3
Spiritual----------3
Industrial--------2
Charismatic------2
Aggressive--------2
Creative-----------2
Also an examination of how adventurous everyone is with picking new leaders or leaders that get picked in every single game.
Inca (Huayna Capac) (Industrial, Financial) - Anonymous - 7 Times
Vikings (Ragnar Lodbrok) (Aggressive, Financial) - Anonymous - 3 Times
Korea (Wang Kong) (Protective, Financial) - Anonymous - 3 Times
Spain (Isabella) (Spiritual, Expansive) - Anonymous - 3 Times
Celts (Brennus) (Spiritual, Charismatic) - Anonymous - 2 Times
Persia (Cyrus I) (Charismatic, Imperialist) - Anonymous - 2 Times
England (Victoria) (Financial, Imperialistic) - MMC - 2 times
Portugal (Joao II) (Expansive, Imperialist) - Anonymous - 2 Times
Native America (Sitting Bull) (Philosophical, Protective) - Anonymous - 2 Times
Holy Roman Empire (Charlemagne) (Protective, Imperialist) - Anonymous - 2 Times
America (Roosevelt) (Industrious, Organized) - Anonymous - 2 Times
Rome (Julius Caesar) (Imperialist, Organized) - Anonymous - 2 Times
Russia (Peter) (Expansive, Philosophical) - Anonymous - 1 Time
India (Asoka) (Organized, Spiritual) - OzzyKP - 1 Time
Greece (Pericles) (Creative, Philosophical) - Anonymous - 1 Time
Japan (Tokugawa) (Aggressive, Protective) - Anonymous - 1 Time
Khmer (Suryavarman) (Creative, Expansive) - Anonymous - 1 Time
Maya (Pacal II) (Expansive, Financial) - Anonymous - 1 Time
While it is too late for this game, I think it would be a good idea to reward through the point system people who take a chance by taking new civs and those who pick the same civs over and over and over again.... like Inca...
But with the exception of the one guy who picked Inca...again... I am quite pleased to see the spread of leaders in this game. Six people tried a leader who has never been used before in a game, and another 8 people picked leaders who were only chosen once before.
Some ideas for giving points based on civ originality:
Trait points:
Financial---------1
Industrial--------2
Spiritual----------3
Expansive--------4
Philosophical-----5
Imperialistic-------6
Charismatic-------7
Aggressive--------10
Organized---------10
Protective----------10
Creative-----------11
Leader Originality:
Never chosen before: 5
Chosen once before: 4
Chosen twice before: 3
Chosen three times before: 2
Chosen four times before: 1
Chosen five or more times before: 0
Never chosen by you before: 5
Chosen by you once before: 2
Chosen by you more than once before: 0
Civ Originality:
Never chosen before: 5
Chosen once before: 4
Chosen twice before: 3
Chosen three times before: 2
Chosen four times before: 1
Chosen five or more times before: 0
Never chosen by you before: 5
Chosen by you once before: 2
Chosen by you more than once before: 0
Some of this may get tricky with anonymous, but it assumes we all reveal ourselves at the end of the game. So some examples, lets say in a future game I pick to be Gandhi. My points would be:
Trait points:
Industrious - 2
Spiritual - 3
Leader Originality:
Chosen three times before: 2
Chosen by you once before: 2
Civ Originality:
Chosen four times before: 1
Chosen by you more than once before: 0
So I'd have a total score of 10 points.
Now, lets look at if I were to choose Sumeria as my civ.
Trait points:
Protective----------10
Creative-----------11
Leader Originality:
Never chosen before: 5
Never chosen by you before: 5
Civ Originality:
Never chosen before: 5
Never chosen by you before: 5
I'd have 41 points. That is a sizeable difference, but not insurmountable. I think that'd give just enough incentive for people to pick creatively. I recommend we try it.
Last edited by OzzyKP on 21-08-2008 at 15:19
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