ACDG5: Demogame, anyone (especially newbies)?

[vyeh]

This is the game organization thread for Alpha Centauri Democracy Game 5 ("ACDG5"). This thread is for all matters relating to the organization of the game.

Original message:

I received a PM from someone who would like to join "my" demogame.

I see two possibilities

(1) I could resume the Darsnan scenario Into the Hornets nest, which I had suspended a year ago, or

(2) if there is more general interest, we could do a relaxed demogame for anyone interested:

(a) beg Mart to recycle one of his maps and give us some sort of accelerated start (multiple colony pods and multiple explorers);
(b) standard rules except directed research;
(c) original SMAC 7 factions.

I would like to know if there are people interested. I wouldn't have any expectations on skill level.

Edit: Added reference to the ACDG5 index at the beginning of the message.

[Heraclitus]

Me.

[Nims]

Yep, interested.

[Bodissey]

I'd also be willing to give it a try.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by vyeh
(2) if there is more general interest, we could do a relaxed demogame for anyone interested:

(a) beg Mart to recycle one of his maps and give us some sort of accelerated start (multiple colony pods and multiple explorers);
(b) standard rules except directed research;
(c) original SMAC 7 factions.

I'm inclined to go with the above possibility. Having gone through the process of trying to get an agreement for a demogame through a process of polls, which failed after a great deal of posts, I'd like to follow this procedure:

(1) Introductions - Please post
(a) anything you'd like to say about yourself,
(b) what you would like to get out of a demogame, and
(c) any musts or must nots (e.g. you can't stand playing Morgan).

(2) Agreement on setup, rules, faction

(3) We ask Mart to set-up a game (I'd like it to be low maintenance for him, so I would suggest he re-use a set-up that none of you have seen)

I'll start the ball rolling.
(a) I joined AC Demogame III at the end with the Data Angels. It was a multiplayer game. I was the turnplayer when the game ended. After the game ended, the private fora were opened up to everybody and I saw how the other teams approached the game.

I tried to get an AC Demogame IV going, but it fell apart. I eventually got Darsnan to create a single player scenario "The Sword of the Righteous" and I played it with Flubber, Mart and Mead. After it finished, I started another Darsnan scenario, but I suspended it when no one else was interested.

I like careful strategic analysis. I enjoyed carefully planning the tech strategy and movement for The Sword of the Righteous.

(b) I like reading and writing early game strategic choices.

(c) I have only one must: mutual respect. Those with little experience or who haven't read every thread in this forum should never be put down (i.e. if someone suggest subverting a wild mindworm with a probe team, calling him an idiot is out of bounds).

I have only one must not: the experience can't be boring. Besides starting with multiple colony pods and multiple scouts, I want to avoid so much formality that the pace is too slow. For example, while I disapprove in general of restarting from a turn save, if a novice turn player hits the wrong key and attacks a mindworm with a colony pod, then we restart the turn.

[Kataphraktoi]

Fortunately you cannot attack mindworms with colony pods.

The problem always comes down to commitment. Veteran players are unlikely to commit without other veterans commiting and newbies are newbies because they stay on the fringe or dont heavily participate.

[timsup2nothin]

OK...I'm apparently a new guy since I don't know what 'demo game' means. I'll do a search for threads and find out, but I'm probably interested.

a) anything you'd like to say about yourself,
I'm retired. I play games a lot. I frequently mention SMAC/X as m favorite game of all time. I play a heavily modded version that I did myself, but have been considering going to the original just to see if I can still win.

(b) what you would like to get out of a demogame,

A good time.

(c) any musts or must nots (e.g. you can't stand playing Morgan).

Same as Vyeh. If you want to call me (or anyone else) an idiot, consider whether you would be willing to do it face to face. I'm retired, but not old, and retired from a very violent profession, so I usually get a certain amount of respect face to face.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
Fortunately you cannot attack mindworms with colony pods.

I know mindworms can attack non-combat units. What happens when a non-combat unit attempts to move into the square of a mindworm? Does the game just remain the same with the non-combat unit continuing to blink? (For some reason, I've never tried to attack a mindworm with a non-combat unit ...)

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
The problem always comes down to commitment. Veteran players are unlikely to commit without other veterans commiting and newbies are newbies because they stay on the fringe or dont heavily participate.

Veterans had a chance to continue the demogames a couple of years ago. I think demogames had run their course for veterans. So while I might envision veterans dropping in on the demo game from time to time and offering suggestions, I don't think there is a veteran player who would be interested even if another veteran player was interested.

The beauty of a demogame (unlike a multiplayer game) is that if a couple of newbies drop out, the game can still continue. I did a little search of the people responding. One respondent got involved in a newbie MP game which only went two turns before it petered out.

I think there may be a niche for newcomers that are tired of playing against the AI, but aren't comfortable with getting into MP.

At this point, I think the minimum commitment I need is:

(1) Mart to set-up (and I plan to make the specifications as CMN friendly as I can -- no enhanced AI, special units; I think a randomly generated map is fine as long as the factions are given extra CP's and scouts)

(2) myself for the knowledge of how to run a demogame and to fill in as needed

(3) at least one other player (it doesn't have to be the same one the whole game).

[vyeh]

Originally posted by timsup2nothin
OK...I'm apparently a new guy since I don't know what 'demo game' means. I'll do a search for threads and find out, but I'm probably interested.

The search function does not work in the archives, where the past AC Democracy Games reside.

In a demo game, two or more players collaborate in playing a single faction.

If you want to quickly browse through a sample demogame,

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showt...hreadid=158400

[Heraclitus]

I'm a big time fan of diplo gaming, love SMAC and have in the past considered joining Civ4 demo games.

Question: Will all the factions be human controled or do we have far too few players to do that?

[Kataphraktoi]

Veterans had a chance to continue the demogames a couple of years ago. I think demogames had run their course for veterans. So while I might envision veterans dropping in on the demo game from time to time and offering suggestions, I don't think there is a veteran player who would be interested even if another veteran player was interested.

Yes i recall that, i think if people really wanted to play it wouldnt have bogged down in polls. There was civ4 out, the future was uncertain, and nothing got done. If you can make this happen, major kudos Better make it fast and push it through before initial enthusiasm dampens, though. The civ4 DG was horrible for taking so long to start.


I always liked civ2DGs better myself, with everyone controlling one faction and certain posts and responsibilites. And voting to decide who gets what position. Prime minister, army commander, head diplomat, etc

[Nims]

What happens when a non-combat unit attempts to move into the square of a mindworm?

You simply can't move into it. Probes also get a message like "Probe teams can't affect native lifeforms".

I did a little search of the people responding. One respondent got involved in a newbie MP game which only went two turns before it petered out.

Guess that was me. That game went down pretty fast As you said, if only one guy drops out in MP, everything comes to a stall.

[Verrucosus]

After the recent polycast, this is an excellent time to try this, vyeh. I'm too busy at work at the moment to join, but I will certainly watch. Good luck!

Verrucosus

P.S.: If a democracy game should turn out too much work to organize with a limited number of participants, please consider trying a succession game instead (still lots of room for discussion, but no complex decision making - the Civ2 forum had a very enjoyable one a few months ago). Also using classic SMAC rather than SMAX would probably increase potential participation.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Heraclitus
Question: Will all the factions be human controled or do we have far too few players to do that?

My proposal is for one human controlled faction that we control jointly. There are way to few players for even two factions. The experience of ACDGIII is that there are dropouts.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
Better make it fast and push it through before initial enthusiasm dampens, though. The civ4 DG was horrible for taking so long to start.

Good advice. I kind of designed the intros (especially parts b and c) so we could quickly figure out what players wanted from the demo game and deal-breakers.

The next step is to put together a proposal for faction, rules & set-up and beg Mart for a set-up

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
I always liked civ2DGs better myself, with everyone controlling one faction and certain posts and responsibilites. And voting to decide who gets what position. Prime minister, army commander, head diplomat, etc

That is the way it will work, with the caveat that every functional position (military, tech, diplomat) should eventually be available to any player who wants it.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Verrucosus
After the recent polycast, this is an excellent time to try this, vyeh. I'm too busy at work at the moment to join, but I will certainly watch. Good luck!

I'd be happy if you watch and occasionally comment. I'd like to see an open thread where anyone can drop in, look at the current situation and offer suggestions. We might even get some general strategy discussions started.

The timing after the polycast is fortuitous, but maybe Illuminatus can swing us a short general announcement after we're up and running, inviting anyone interested to come by. Maybe we can get some Civ'er to dust off that copy of SMAC/SMAX in the closet.

Originally posted by Verrucosus
Also using classic SMAC rather than SMAX would probably increase potential participation.

I'm prepared to go SMAC if even one of the initially interested participants doesn't have the expansion.

If there is anyone who doesn't have SMAC, please say so.

[Mart]

I will setup the game and can do a new map. It is a Demo Game after all!

I would propose to start it in multiplayer - would run as "iron man" - you do only one turn at a time. Benefit is that you cannot open it in scenario editor.

map size? I would recommend standard size at most.
An option is to generate map 30x60, it can have still 10 minerals/nutrients per row (which I recommend due to social efects designed for this base row length) and this happens when map is declared custom size.

We play SMAC?

-------
Playing smaller maps is good for less micromanagement. Early game also develops faster. However, any size you prefer in majority will be done.

Demogame deserves special treatment, so I would enhance AI to give more interesting and meaningful late game.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Mart
I will setup the game and can do a new map. It is a Demo Game after all!

Thanks.

To make it easier for you, I'm using your format for a proposed set-up

ACDGV First Pass


SMAC game


Faction
Player


Gaians
 
 


Hive
 
 


University
 
 



Morgan
 
 

Spartans
 
 


Believers
 
 


Peacekeepers
 
 


---


CMN
Mart
marcin777TAgmailTODcom


---


Preference
Settings


Map Size
Custom, 30x60


Ocean Coverage
50-70


Erosion Forces
Average


Native Life
Average


Cloud Cover
Average


Difficulty
Transcend


---


Transcend
Yes


Conquest
Yes


Diplomatic
Yes


Economic
Yes


Cooperative
Yes


---


Do or Die
No


Flexible start
Yes


Tech stagnation
No


Spoils of war
No


Blind research
No


Intense riv
No


No survey
Yes


No scatter
No


No rnd events
No


Time Warp
No


Iron man
Yes


Rand person
No


Rand social
No

---


Beginning Units
3 CP, 3 Scouts, 3 Unity Supply Droids

Notes:
(1) On reflection, I agree with Verrucosus that SMAC increases potential participation.
(2) One faction will be played by us. The other six are AI. Interested players: please indicate which factions you DON'T want to play.
(3) Standard, 40x80 is also fine with me
(4) Ocean Coverage, Erosion Forces, Native Life and Cloud Cover are all average; I think the average setting gives the greatest diversity.
(5) Difficulty is transcend because the AI is very beatable at any lower level with all the strategies available on the forum.
(6) Rules are SMAC default except for Flexible Start (can move initial colony pods), No Blind Research (allows more tech strategy), Iron Man (no redoing mistakes).
(7) Usually random events are turned off for multiplayer games. I'm suggesting we keep it because it will make the game more fun.
(8) I am suggesting 3 CP, 3 Scouts and 3 Unity Supply Droids because it will give the game a faster start; I've noticed Mart gave some supply droids to the Empath World PBEM. The ability to have an extra nutrient, mineral or energy per base at the beginning of the game will lead to faster development.

Originally posted by Mart
I would propose to start it in multiplayer - would run as "iron man" - you do only one turn at a time. Benefit is that you cannot open it in scenario editor.

Does this mean you have to process each turn?

Originally posted by Mart
map size? I would recommend standard size at most.
An option is to generate map 30x60, it can have still 10 minerals/nutrients per row (which I recommend due to social efects designed for this base row length) and this happens when map is declared custom size.
...
-------
Playing smaller maps is good for less micromanagement. Early game also develops faster. However, any size you prefer in majority will be done.

40x80 (standard) or 30x60 are both fine. Mart's arguments about less micromanagement and faster development are persuasive.

Originally posted by Mart
We play SMAC?

Yes

Originally posted by Mart
Demogame deserves special treatment, so I would enhance AI to give more interesting and meaningful late game.

I appreciate that.

Potential participants should note that it takes time for a CMN to create a map, enhance the AI and do some playtesting.

We need to agree on the final chart so Mart can get started. In particular, we need to choose a faction. I think the easiest way to figure out the faction is for everyone to post the factions they DON'T want to play. Then we can discuss the ones left.

After we agree on a final chart and Mart has started the map, we'll organize. Some of my preliminary thoughts on organization:

It is important that everyone gets a chance to participate to the extent he (or she) wants to. If more than one person wants a particular role, then the role should be rotated.

There should be plenty of opportunity to discuss the faction's actions by everyone.

If I'm going too fast for anyone, please speak up. I've gone through the exercise of trying to set up a demogame after ACDG III, so I've seen some pitfalls. One is that people leave if it takes too long to get a game going.

[Mart]

When having only one human player in multiplayer, you can play turn after turn, no GM processing is needed. The drawback is no possibility to change anything in scenaio editor. In singleplayer, you can adjust things - but this may not feel right.

Since AI will be enhanced, attention to each turn would be advised.

[Mart]

The first thing is size of the map. I can create it before the actual faction is chosen. Less micromanagement is an advice from experience of playing games. Iirc from ACDG1 to ACDG3 size went down.

After you choose a faction, I would need maybe correct it slightly.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Mart
would propose to start it in multiplayer - would run as "iron man" - you do only one turn at a time. Benefit is that you cannot open it in scenario editor.

Originally posted by Mart
When having only one human player in multiplayer, you can play turn after turn, no GM processing is needed. The drawback is no possibility to change anything in scenaio editor. In singleplayer, you can adjust things - but this may not feel right.

If I understand correctly, there is a benefit under MP that a player can't open it in scenario editor and the drawback is that the CMN can't change anything in scenario editor.

Given that a group of players are investing time (and hopefully emotion) in the game, the drawback vastly outweighs the benefit. In addition, SP would allow interested people to poke around long after the demogame is finished.

What is your reasoning for suggesting "iron man?" I see benefit in preventing "save" and "restart," and drawback in novice turnplayer making mistake that ruins the game. ("guys I meant to quit, not quit after retiring!")

Originally posted by Mart
The first thing is size of the map. I can create it before the actual faction is chosen. Less micromanagement is an advice from experience of playing games. Iirc from ACDG1 to ACDG3 size went down.

At the end of ACDGIII, the Spartan turnplayer had to go through 50 bases every turn. The turnplayer was very unhappy when Data Angel turnplayer posted an unfixed file and Spartans couldn't save game and had to repeat their turn. That is another reason to play SP. In addition to myself, there is another potential player who apparently has a Mac (his belonging to 'poly Mac forum suggest this possibility).

So even with smaller ACDG3 map, there was quite a bit of micromanaging. (Those Spartans carried micromanaging to new heights with their battle simulators -- a case of life imitating role playing. As you recalled, the Data Angels chose to protect their data by razing their own bases including HQ when the Spartans sent over a recon invasion and forgot to build a new HQ. Somehow, that seems in character for a bunch of anarchic hackers.)

Everybody else, let's see if we can sign off on map size (currently 30x60) and Ocean Coverage (50-70), Erosion Forces (Average), Native Life (Average), and Cloud Cover (Average). If you have any issues with these, state them now.

After that we'll choose faction.

And then organize our democracy (DEMO means democracy, although it would be nice if it could serve as a demonstration game for a SMAC newcomer).

[JoeStalin]

Please count me in. I am a newbie in terms of playing with others. I dominate the AI however and am looking for something a little different. I've been playing smac for years and it's favorite game of all time.

Factions I'd reallly prefer NOT to play: Gaians, Believers- I've really never played either of these factions and wouldn't know best strategies.

I'd be up for any other faction though.

[Mart]

We can play without iron man, SP (singleplayer) game.

[vyeh]

ACDGV Second Pass


SMAC game


Faction
Player


Gaians
AI
 


Hive
 
 


University
 
 



Morgan
 
 

Spartans
 
 


Believers
AI
 


Peacekeepers
 
 


---


CMN
Mart
marcin777TAgmailTODcom


---


Preference
Settings


Map Size
Custom, 30x60


Ocean Coverage
50-70


Erosion Forces
Average


Native Life
Average


Cloud Cover
Average


Difficulty
Transcend


---


Transcend
Yes


Conquest
Yes


Diplomatic
Yes


Economic
Yes


Cooperative
Yes


---


Do or Die
No


Flexible start
Yes


Tech stagnation
No


Spoils of war
No


Blind research
No


Intense riv
No


No survey
Yes


No scatter
No


No rnd events
No


Time Warp
No


Iron man
No


Rand person
No


Rand social
No

---


Beginning Units
3 CP, 3 Scouts, 3 Unity Supply Droids

Notes:
(1) SMAC increases potential participation.
(2) One faction will be played by us. The other six are AI. Interested players: please indicate which factions you DON'T want to play.
(3) Standard, 40x80 is also an option.
(4) Ocean Coverage, Erosion Forces, Native Life and Cloud Cover are all average, which gives the greatest diversity.
(5) Difficulty is transcend because the AI is very beatable at any lower level with all the strategies available on the forum.
(6) Rules are SMAC default except for Flexible Start (can move initial colony pods) and No Blind Research (allows more tech strategy).
(7) Note random events are turned off for multiplayer games. I'm suggesting we keep it because it will make the game more fun.
(8) I am suggesting 3 CP, 3 Scouts and 3 Unity Supply Droids because it will give the game a faster start. The ability to have an extra nutrient, mineral or energy per base at the beginning of the game will lead to faster development.

People indicating interest (some comments are from other threads):
Bodissey
Heraclitus - favorite faction is University
JoeStalin - no to Gaians, Believers
Nims - favorite SP faction is Spartans
timsup2nothin
vyeh

CMN
Mart

Running checklist
(1) See if there are any objections to 30x60 map, average ocean coverage, erosion forces, native life and cloud cover. We should assume some posters only check the thread on weekdays, so we should know by Monday night if there are issues.
(2) Choose faction out of Hive, University, Morgan, Spartans and Peacekeepers. I'd like to finalize that by Friday. Better if it can be done sooner.
(3) Democracy Organization - I'd like to hear about Heraclitus' experience with diplo gaming and any good things we can incorporate.

[Mart]

I just have an idea of an option:

Some generated faction, taking place of a standard faction, its name would be changed, color and graphics would hold though.
The faction would have new:
- name
- parameters

A good one to replace is PK.
===
We could also mimic some expansion factions, e.g. create pseudo-Data Angels, Drones or Cycon. It would be within available smac limits.

Or some idea is to play a faction with no parameters at all - plain flat faction that would be shaped entirely by present philosophy players choose.
What comes to my mind is e.g.:
Unity Command
An officer from the ship takes over the command of the mission after Garland dies. Lal has to yield and live as a common citizen of the faction.

[Nims]

Nims - favorite SP faction is Spartans

Well, I really don't care what faction we play. Map and other Options seem fine.
And one comment regarding this comment by JoeStalin if I may:

I've really never played either of these factions and wouldn't know best strategies.

I don't think that it is necessary to know the best strategies in a demo game, as there will be discussion about almost anything anyway. At least as far as I could see from reading through that sample thread.

[vyeh]

Are factions imprinted into the save file or are we talking scenario?

Originally posted by Mart
I just have an idea of an option:

Some generated faction, taking place of a standard faction, its name would be changed, color and graphics would hold though.
The faction would have new:
- name
- parameters

A good one to replace is PK.
....
We could also mimic some expansion factions, e.g. create pseudo-Data Angels, Drones or Cycon. It would be within available smac limits.

You raise the issue: Should we run a new faction?
Pro: It might shake up some strategies.
Con: Players might prefer playing a familiar faction.

As you are aware, I proposed a demogame with a generated faction.

Since my reservation is with how players would accept a generated player faction, I'll leave it to them to speak on this issue.

Originally posted by Mart
Or some idea is to play a faction with no parameters at all - plain flat faction that would be shaped entirely by present philosophy players choose.
What comes to my mind is e.g.:
Unity Command
An officer from the ship takes over the command of the mission after Garland dies. Lal has to yield and live as a common citizen of the faction.

I like the idea of a flat faction. It reduces complexity. I particularly like having all Social Engineering options available.

A flat faction is the PK faction without:
(1) -1 efficiency;
(2) extra talent for every four citizens;
(3) the ability to exceed Hab Complex population requirements by 2;
(4) receiving double votes in elections for Planetary Governor and Supreme Leader;
(5) the inability to use Police State Politics; and
(6) Biogenetics starting tech.

I think you will have to add built in facility and/or additional units to balance the game, but I prefer to leave that detail to you rather than open it for general discussion. (In fact maybe those supply droids will be sufficient balancing - we'll probably use them more efficiently than the AI.)

What is open of general discussion is
(1) Is a 30x60 map and average ocean coverage, erosion forces, native life and cloud cover acceptable?
(2) Should we play a standard faction, a generated faction or a flat faction?


Edit: Added comment that the supply droids might be enough to balance a flat faction.

Edit: Remove discussion topic - misunderstood Mart.

[Maniac]

I think polls held before previous ACDGs always indicated the majority here had Alien Crossfire. Has that changed?

Besides, SMAX is available on the Underdogs I believe.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Maniac
I think polls held before previous ACDGs always indicated the majority here had Alien Crossfire. Has that changed?

There was a recent thread where the poster had lost Alien Crossfire and found replacing Alien Crossfire to be high.

With relatively few people interested and keeping in mind the dropout rate in any demogame, I think it is best to go for least common denominator rather than majority rule.

[Mart]

I know smax is available on underdogs. I have read their policy. Still I think not everyone would download a program from their site. However, it appears, developers would not mind, since the game is out of print. Overall smac is fine with me - fun to play almost the same as smax.

Yes, there are possibilities:
- print game again
- release as freeware
- sell as download for 5$
maybe we should write a petition indicating these above? when EA fate clears? next month?

I would rather keep for AI original personalities. Only human controlled faction would be generated, but if so we better play flat faction with no balancing, just my oppinion. I would though give AI additional parameters to make them competitive.
Small map is momentum play style inclined. To have more hybrid or builder style possible it is more difficult to achieve. But I would avoid making the game easy momentum win.