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Old December 22, 2007, 16:33   #1
DanQ
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In-House Preview Part 5: "Governing Yourselves"
With Civilization: Revolution’s background, victories, multiplayer and diplomacy and units covered already it’s time to examine the game’s culture system and government model in my multi-part preview of the game.

THE OTHER CULTURE CLUB

Washington’s cultural border outlined in blue
It starts with your shiny Palace, the first entity that generates this in CivRev: culture. It generates one culture point per population point per city. That’s no shiny to sneeze at. But just what is the concept effecting? Veterans of Civilization III and IV know that first and foremost culture determines the size of your border – no politicians cowering over pieces of paper or soldiers yelling threw gritted teeth here. If and when one's culture reaches a sufficient level, their civilization’s border will expand; if it is lame, as Firaxis Games Director of Creative Development and CivRev designer Sid Meier puts it, their border will shrink instead. The case then of cities in close proximity to one another and what affect that has on cultural borders is also found here. If the culture of one city’s civilization is being dwarfed by a next door neighbour, particularly where that disparity is reflected in those two cities themselves, the culturally dominated city may ‘flip’ to the dominator’s side.

Sid finds city flipping to be a fun mechanic found in modern-day Civ series titles and so do I. Of course, just how much ‘fun’ it is can depend on which side of the culture domination you’re on… But there seems to be even more to this now. I cannot recall a time in CivIV, for instance, where my cultural border shrank without the external factor of another encroaching civilization: in CivRev it seemingly can. In my opinion this will encourage players even more to not think they can play “catch up” on culture so easily in the late(r) game, especially where isolated starts are not going to be so isolated with generally smaller maps to play on. Another reason why culture may be shining brighter still here: the ability to convert city trade into happiness. Happiness is understandably a primary factor in determining the strength of your civilization’s culture. Sid continues:

We really wanted the borders to be dynamic, really represent your culture graphically. As we get later in the game, it [becomes] a non-military way to expand using culture and city-flipping.

WILL THE REAL GOVERNMENT PLEASE STAND UP?
You will not find CivIV’s five-tier Civics system in CivRev but rather a government model. If you don't build (or capture ) the Pyramids Wonder which opens up all government types to you as it did Government Civics in CivIV, they will as you advance through the technology tree. Governments have been in all Civ games to date save CivIV and CivRev’s seem a sort of middle-ground between the past government and the one Civics implementation. Like the first three Civs, you start off your games under Despotism. There are even more reasons to move away from your despotic ways as soon as possible than before. Your other government choices can become Monarchy, Communism, Democracy, Republic and Fundamentalism as your scientists make the necessary discoveries. Fundamentalism was first seen in Civilization II and not again until now. It took to the second CivIII expansion Conquests to see Fascism included in the series in an official capacity. It seems then that if one “F”-government is in a Civ title the other is not. [Enter conspiracy theorists quietly but feverously murmuring in the background here]. Similarly but not so severely to previous series incarnations, it takes just a turn of anarchy to change government types where production in all cities is halted.


Did you ever have to make up your mind…
Monarchy is the culture-based government in CivRev, doubling the bonus of the Palace found in the adopting civilization’s capital. Unless you’re fortunate enough to be in possession of the Pyramids early enough on, this is the first government type you can adopt to move away from Despotism. This is as it was in previous Civ games with this governance model. Conversely in a sense, Communism is production-oriented: an extra 50% production in all cities is applied but any Temples and Cathedrals you may have are shut down. There’s no point then in wasting turns in building any of these improvements either if and when you adopt this government type. As Sid puts it, you’re trading culture for production by going Commie. To me this suggests Communism is better suited to adopting in short intervals when you’re looking to build-up your military, add city improvements or rush some Wonders (though probably not the Pyramids at this point ). If the building of Temples and Cathedrals is not yet disabled under Communism, I recommend to Firaxis to do so – at least on the lower difficulty levels where new(er) players are apt to empire-build at.

Like Communism, Democracy has a defining advantage and disadvantage to it. Its plus is that it gives you 50% more commerce wherever trade is already being generated. This could mean the difference from incrementing your treasury marginally to considerably or even from deficit to balance turn-to-turn. This government’s potential drawback is a throwback to its CivII counterpart: you are not allowed to declare war on anyone – period. Further, if you are already at war with someone and they now offer you peace you must accept that offer. In CivII the peaceful Dove party was always in control of your Senate under Democracy and it seems they’re back with avengeance. When Sid describes this is a very interesting game situation, he must be purposefully making an understatement.

TAKING THIS, LEAVING THAT
To be clear, by throwback I do not mean setback when it comes to Democracy’s drawback. (Yes, I fit three words with the word “back” in them into one sentence – match that. ) There is balance here for this government’s commerce benefit is as extreme as is its consequence. The extremeness of its negative is quite obvious and so is the positive when you recall that a tile can only provide the benefit of food or commerce or hammers in CivRev. It could hold considerable value for landlocked civilizations as much commerce is generated by water terrain. Communism’s pro and con balance the gameplay scale too, particularly when you take into account how much more crucial culture has become to Civ since the concept was first introduced to the series in CivIII. However, I believe Monarchy needs a specific con applied to it: it seems considerably unbalanced as is. The importance and strength culture can command in a civilization’s internal and external affairs is considerable. Combined with the continued possibility of a Culture victory and the smaller maps with less room and opportunity for city founding, that Monarchy’s benefit is centered around a culturally-oriented building that must always be present in the game is quite powerful. Though I didn’t think it before possible, this makes its benefit as a government civic in CivIV even paler by comparison.

Fundamentalism is a military-oriented government type, giving your units +1 attack value but your Libraries and Universities are shut down. Sid describes the benefit here as a pretty powerful addition. Though it didn’t strike me at first, after some consideration I’m wondering if it is going to be quite that powerful throughout the entire game. As the game progresses, attack value boosts that are measured in absolute terms are more relative to base values than those that are percentage-based. The +1 is shaping up to give players a bigger bang for their attack buck in the earlier game. Using an example, +1 to a unit that has a base of 2 or 3 is a notable increase but only slightly so when their base is a 10 or 11. But it is also in the earlier game when keeping up if not exceeding your neighbours’ scientific progress is critical: it will greatly determine your ability to catch-up should you fall behind and just how far you have to catch-up… should you manage to avoid being mortally wounded or defeated before then. I presume that Fundamentalism will become a government option at around the middle of the game as it was in CivII; this is when percentage-based value boosts become start to come more into their own. For instance a 25% attack boost for a unit with a base value of 1 becomes 1.25 but with a base of 4 it becomes 5. Damage possibilities aside, that’s a substantive different. A change in the attack value bonus under Fundamentalism from an absolute to a percentage-based value would address this. Given comparable government and other CivRev bonuses towards the faster pace this gaming experience is to provide, I suggest that specific value be 25%: powerful without being overpowering. As is, Fundamentalism comes across as moderately unbalanced to me.

The Republican government type remains a question mark for the time being. Sid admits upfront that they are not actually sure what [it] does yet. While no government trait is yet finalized, as can be seen not all governments have traits just yet! For Civ, the approach to mix and match assessed best of previous Civ titles – for streamlined but not simplifying gameplay – has already been demonstrated to be working consistently well. In my view, one of the better differentiations between Republic and Democracy was in CivII and also seems appropriate for CivRev. The Republican Senate would only impose peace half of the time: the other half saw the Hawk party vetoing the Doves’ effort and approving any war declaration you made. For balance and continued consistency with Democracy’s offering, I propose Republic’s benefit be 25% more commerce wherever trade is already being generated.

GOVERNMENTS VS. CIVICS
When CivIV moved away from the government model and put Civics in its place, I was apprehensive. So much so that I tried to convince myself that at the time CivIV came out, the fact that my computer couldn’t support its graphics requirements was a good thing. Though a Civ player for more than 10 years already by that point, I saw the Civics model an unnecessarily complicated juggling act – that governments as seen in CivIII had matured to the point that movement to-and-from its different types served any number of short and long-term strategies well enough. Instead I found that better informing myself of my Civics choices, and then getting a feel for CivIV by actually playing several games, increased my comfort level with and appreciation for these choices greatly. (The graphics card upgrade I needed was very affordable.) Given this, an understandable knee-jerk reaction is that going back to a government model in CivRev is a mistake. Like having an object too close in your line of sight, such examinations can loose focus.

CivIV introduced a new integral concept to gameplay: Religion. Religion was also one of that game’s five Civics categories. In CivRev, religion is but an advance on the technology tree. This is but one case in point. CivIV’s Civics model would not lend itself so well to CivRev nor would governments have served as well in CivIV. Fortunately, CivRev’s government system is not a clone of any previous model. I hope I have conveyed how the uniqueness that CivIV’s Civics mixing-and-matching provided is being adapted into the make-up of government types in CivRev. These types should be a comfortable fit for many long or even short-term strategies on the part of the civilization that adopts them. Further, that governments can return to the Civ series without corruption (CivIV first discarded) or waste (CivRev is dumping) to tackle is minimizing a number of past headaches and improving their usefulness in the process. Sid himself said that they as developers have backed off a little bit from CivIV’s Civics in CivRev that though cool [were] more complex than this game would support. I concur.

TREAT YOU RIGHT
This installment of my CivRev preview has been a little longer in coming than previous ones to date. It’s also not as long as a number of them and that is because I have a video to share with you. Some screenshots from this game’s introductory movie have been previously published, including in an earlier part of this preview, and even the odd clip or two in passing. Apolyton Civilization Site is proud to bring footage of this entire movie to you for the first time. Encoded in Windows Media format, it runs just under 2½ minutes.





NEXT TIME IS STORYTIME
The sixth part of my Civilization: Revolution preview will be told in a narrative format as I focus in on how the game Sid and Firaxis Executive Producer and CivRev Lead Producer Barry Caudill played to demonstrate the game went.
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Old December 22, 2007, 18:38   #2
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I am a little bit drunk, small pre christmas party with my friends at my place, but seems full of information. Good write up, I will make a small update for Will tomorrow (sp?) when I am in better shape
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Old December 22, 2007, 20:24   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by waab
... seems full of information. Good write up,
Thanks!

Quote:
I will make a small update for Will tomorrow (sp?) when I am in better shape
Thanks in advance.
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Old December 24, 2007, 12:59   #4
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Any word on the release date yet. Thanks for all this previews they are great, but when will Fraxis themselves have a new preview with gameplay vids. It has been a while since they have not shown a preview.
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Old December 25, 2007, 07:32   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by DanQ
Thanks in advance.
Not much to say thanks about, I got a little bit delayed, will try to make the update later today (and I mean later).

Quote:
Originally posted by marinofan
Any word on the release date yet. Thanks for all this previews they are great, but when will Fraxis themselves have a new preview with gameplay vids. It has been a while since they have not shown a preview.
Nope, what we have is a vague spring 2008 from firaxis and that some sites have stated 28 of april.
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Old December 26, 2007, 16:07   #6
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I one question:

Do you need to deal with unhappiness in CivRev? I wonder because shutting down temples and Cathedrals might be very rough on the commie bastards if that is the case
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Old December 26, 2007, 22:48   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by marinofan
Thanks for all this previews they are great,
Welcome.

Quote:
but when will Fraxis themselves have a new preview with gameplay vids. It has been a while since they have not shown a preview.
I don't have an answer for that.

I'm hoping that in the next or at least some future parts of my preview I will be able to compliment my write-up with video of gameplay.

Quote:
Originally posted by waab
I one question:

Do you need to deal with unhappiness in CivRev? I wonder because shutting down temples and Cathedrals might be very rough on the commie bastards if that is the case
Good question.

I do not believe you will have to deal with unhappiness in CivRev.
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Old December 27, 2007, 05:49   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by DanQ
I do not believe you will have to deal with unhappiness in CivRev.
If that is true you might find Waab:s Red Army to be very very large
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Old December 27, 2007, 14:28   #9
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Thanks Dan, but I still wonder if the game is scheduled for an april release date I guess they should start promoting it more. I would love to read your next preview with some gameplay vids, you are the only source of info we have and that is not good marketing.
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Old December 27, 2007, 14:32   #10
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Dan have you been able to find out what I asked a while ago about being able to play multiplayer offline. Remember when I mentioned being able to play with buddies offline like a two on two like regular console games. Can you please ask if that option will be available because I never play online.
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Old December 28, 2007, 12:51   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by marinofan
Dan have you been able to find out what I asked a while ago about being able to play multiplayer offline. Remember when I mentioned being able to play with buddies offline like a two on two like regular console games. Can you please ask if that option will be available because I never play online.
Don't have you answer but I think this thread is a good place to ask your questions:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...0&pagenumber=1
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Old December 28, 2007, 14:06   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by waab
If that is true you might find Waab:s Red Army to be very very large


Quote:
Originally posted by marinofan
Thanks Dan...
Welcome.

Quote:
... being able to play multiplayer offline. Remember when I mentioned being able to play with buddies offline like a two on two like regular console games.
No hotseat, but you can play over a Local Area Network (LAN) including one-on-one.
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Old December 28, 2007, 22:24   #13
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Dan, tell me about game saves on the DS. I play a couple games (Age of Kings and Zelda: Phantom Hour Glass) atm on the DS, and their save features are not what I would want for CivRev on DS.

I would like the ability to save more than 2 game files.
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Old December 29, 2007, 00:40   #14
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I had very little time to playtest the DS version of this game and not much else of my time seeing the game was focused on it. I have no footage of any part of it being discussed so I'm going to have to rely on memory alone.

IIRC, you can save more than 2 game files on the DS version but I'm not sure how many more. I'm sorry I cannot provide more details than that at this point anyway.

Given this, I encourage you to ask that question in a related thread that 'waab' cited earlier.
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Old December 29, 2007, 06:48   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by dojoboy
Dan, tell me about game saves on the DS. I play a couple games (Age of Kings and Zelda: Phantom Hour Glass) atm on the DS, and their save features are not what I would want for CivRev on DS.

I would like the ability to save more than 2 game files.
I think I can say that much more than 3 games is out of the limit. The main problem is the size of the cartbridge which holds the save data. If I remember correctly the largest cart is 1 gigaBIT (= 128 MB) and on that you have to have the entire game plus the save files. A larger cart also means a more expensive game to make for the publisher, so I count on somewhere around 3-5 games at maximum.

(might point out that I am just playing around with the numbers that I can find on the internet. If Firaxis can make CivRev DS at 64 mb than sure we can have 10 or more save slots)

EDIT:
After some use of google I actualy found that there is a vague statment that it will be possible to use 256 MB carts from Nintendo. However I don't see any games that have used more than 128 MB. One of the first in using the 256 MB might be DQIX next fall.
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Old March 8, 2008, 18:50   #16
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Intro movie link is broken.
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Old March 8, 2008, 20:06   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stuie
Intro movie link is broken.
-- corrected. Appreciate the heads-up.

Enjoy.
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Old June 20, 2008, 15:45   #18
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I've been enjoying this read, catching up on all the old parts I missed, and I decided to register, maybe make some counterpoint for fun (and profit).

Regarding your criticism of Fundamentalism possibly being unbalanced, I believe it's hard to determine at this point.

In early game the bonus is comparable to ~25%, but you also have much smaller unit production. Perhaps they believe the benefits of higher population/production cities generating larger armies, multiple cities doing the generating, and everything that comes with capturing enemy cities outweighs the need for a %-age.

With the army system I think a % will break the mechanics because a tank army would get an immense bonus compared to it's level in the research tree.

This is excluding the fact that the 100% elite bonus applies to your +1 attack (per unit), and it isn't clear (to me) if an army gets one for each unit: +3 for an army (which would be +6 with 100% elite bonus and more with hill/forest bonus). In this game a slight military advantage can be a major advantage, especially if you can capture the right towns.

Hard to say whether it will be balanced compared to a palace culture bonus (that you could dominate), I won't know til I play.
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Old June 21, 2008, 14:54   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by PosSibley
I've been enjoying this read,
Thanks.

Quote:
catching up on all the old parts I missed, and I decided to register, maybe make some counterpoint for fun (and profit).


While my position on Fundamentalism's attack bonus value has not changed, it has softened as discussed below as you have outlined some good points for it to not be percentage-based as I've suggested.

Quote:
In early game the bonus is comparable to ~25%, but you also have much smaller unit production. Perhaps they believe the benefits of higher population/production cities generating larger armies, multiple cities doing the generating, and everything that comes with capturing enemy cities outweighs the need for a %-age.
In comparison to CivIV, we're most likely not going to have as many cities on average as the maps are smaller as is the possible number of workable tiles of each. Further, each terrain type carries one of food, hammers and commerce (save the occasional civ-based bonus). This strikes me as city specialization being even more desirable if not critical in CivRev and therefore you're not going to have as high a portion of your cities churning out military units at any one time.

Quote:
With the army system I think a % will break the mechanics because a tank army would get an immense bonus compared to it's level in the research tree.
Yes, a %-based attack value increase would be quite strong in the later game as in your example. Yet just as immense on the science side while you'd enjoy this benefit you take the immense hit of having both your Libraries and Universities shut down. Both are outrageous, at least as compared to Civ on the PC to date, but that's towards what CivRev is about in part -- all making for generally shorter gameplay.

That said, if you are able to continue playing after you have concluded your research -- especially if before a victor is determined -- than Fundamentalism's negative would need to be tweaked so that there is some other aspect affected that is just as costly.

I agree that it's all still hard to determine at this point, though our European peers who now have the full game probably have a better idea (darn them ).
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Old June 23, 2008, 15:45   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by DanQ
This strikes me as city specialization being even more desirable if not critical in CivRev and therefore you're not going to have as high a portion of your cities churning out military units at any one time.
Very good point, makes me rethink some of my views!

Quote:
Originally posted by DanQ Yes, a %-based attack value increase would be quite strong in the later game as in your example. Yet just as immense on the science side while you'd enjoy this benefit you take the immense hit of having both your Libraries and Universities shut down. Both are outrageous, at least as compared to Civ on the PC to date, but that's towards what CivRev is about in part -- all making for generally shorter gameplay.
At first in the demo I was surprised how powerful elite Knight Armies with fundamentalism and Samurai Castle was (especially on a hill), but then I played as egypt with a Colossus, Bank, East India Trade, Trade Fair, Trading Post, Courthouse and Democracy.

I wonder how well maxed production/attack power stacks up against maxed science or gold. One thing is for certain, it will definitely depend on which civilization you choose and which you are facing.

Notably more useful for Mongolia, Germany, Arabia, and towns without anarchy penalty and especially early-game, end-game, or against enemies with no specialist defense and bonus buildings/GP/wonder at the starting age (Egypt, France, America).

Quote:
Originally posted by DanQ That said, if you are able to continue playing after you have concluded your research -- especially if before a victor is determined -- than Fundamentalism's negative would need to be tweaked so that there is some other aspect affected that is just as costly.
Also you can get a little help using the Great Library, buying/threatening for tech, or exploring for Atlantis. Since it only affects your science buildings, you can still aim for gold or culture.

Quote:
Originally posted by DanQ
I agree that it's all still hard to determine at this point, though our European peers who now have the full game probably have a better idea (darn them ).
To quote futurama:
"Glurmo: No food or drink allowed on the tour. You'll have to wait until you're partying with Slurms MacKenzie.
Fry: When will that be?
Glurmo: Soon enough.
Fry: That's not soon enough!"

Thanks for the attentive responses, I'll find out for myself in a few weeks or so. In the end, I'm a science lover so I'll probably be spending a lot of time avoiding fundamentalism, but i'm curious how much I should fear it.
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