Dale/Snoopy PatchMod (Bug-fixes and more) - Page 6

Refar · October 7, 2008, 16:01

I put the CvGamecore.dll over the original one, Python and XML in CustomAssets.

snoopy369 · October 7, 2008, 16:05

The CvGameCore.dll needs to be in customassets also, I think ... but really you're better off putting it all in as a mod rather than putting it in as a normal game. Safer, anyway.

Dale · October 7, 2008, 16:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Refar
I put the CvGamecore.dll over the original one, Python and XML in CustomAssets.

Just set it up as you described, played your save, and the MM appeared in the west.

Refar · October 7, 2008, 16:17

Unless they changed something with Col, Overwriting the .dll and putting the rest in Custom Assets does work. If it didn't i would have a lot more trouble too.

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Yes now loas up the same save and send the MM back to East - it will still come back West.

Dale · October 7, 2008, 16:33

Hmm.... there's something very screwy with setting it up like that. Yes, I noticed the wierd behaviour, and that's not present when playing the mod as an actual mod.

I've done testing just now inside the mod as an actual mod (so C:\Program Files\Sid Meiers Colonization\Mods\PatchMod\) and it works there as intended.

As I recommended up top, I wouldn't put over original files just yet.

Refar · October 7, 2008, 16:48

Hmmm that's odd. Because in the other game (where i complained about coming back at "random" location) it worked in exactly the same setup...

But since the problem is not reproducible in the setup you suggested, it must be something on my side.

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I don't use mods (even if i play them) because i want all the games to be in the same Hall of Fame (mods will display they own listings).

Allways did it that way with BTS - even on modular - so i have some experience doing it.
It causing trouble now is a bit odd.

Dale · October 7, 2008, 17:51

Only reason we suggest running it as a mod at the moment is during development. A lot of targets are moving at the moment. Later on, when everything is settled the last version will be a replacement of the original files, not a mod.

Refar · October 7, 2008, 17:54

And here i am again... Sorry... :-S

Cleaned out Custom Assets, reverted the original .dll from backup. Didn't reinstall but i am not as retard as i look like - i am sure it's completely clean now.
Set it up as a Mod as you suggested in the first post.

Can't load up the old saves this way of course, but made a new game (A_New_World, Tiny) - still the same issue.

http://rapidshare.com/files/151870790/Test1.zip.html

Save set up as before - MM in Europe. Send back West or East - allways arrive West.

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Two things left that are not exactly the same:
- My Game is installed on E:\Games\Civ4Col rather than C:\Program Files\
So Mod went to E:\Games\Civ4Col\Mods
- I loaded the mod via Mod = Mods\PatchMod from the .ini so i don't need to restart.

If these are causing the problem... then there is something brocken with gow the game accesses the files if not installed in default folders.

The Rusty Gamer · October 7, 2008, 18:25

If you are returning a ship back to the side of the map it came from, it should always end up in approx the same place it left. That is one of the core elements of Col gameplay and shouldn't be changed IMO. Hance, no third button.

Hmmm...I suppose you could create a founding father that gives more flexibility in sailing from Europe...being able to go north east, east, south east, north west, west, south west.

that reminds me, I noticed when looking through some of the code that you are suppose to also be able to sail north or south to get to Europe. Of course, some maps don't allow for that I think since the land blocks north and south. But does it work? Are there maps scripts out there that allow for north or south sailing to Europe?

The Rusty Gamer · October 7, 2008, 18:40

Interesting that you have increased the prices fo horses. If I therefore mod the cost of wagon trains to add horses, that would perhaps address any wagon train balance problem.

Dale · October 7, 2008, 18:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Refar
And here i am again... Sorry... :-S

Cleaned out Custom Assets, reverted the original .dll from backup. Didn't reinstall but i am not as retard as i look like - i am sure it's completely clean now.
Set it up as a Mod as you suggested in the first post.

Can't load up the old saves this way of course, but made a new game (A_New_World, Tiny) - still the same issue.

http://rapidshare.com/files/151870790/Test1.zip.html

Save set up as before - MM in Europe. Send back West or East - allways arrive West.

-----

Two things left that are not exactly the same:
- My Game is installed on E:\Games\Civ4Col rather than C:\Program Files\
So Mod went to E:\Games\Civ4Col\Mods
- I loaded the mod via Mod = Mods\PatchMod from the .ini so i don't need to restart.

If these are causing the problem... then there is something brocken with gow the game accesses the files if not installed in default folders.

Will look at it later (at work now). It's wierd that it's doing this, I tested this pretty extensively.

And I have my setup as C:\Games\.... and load from a modified shortcut on the desktop, so I wouldn't point at those things causing an issue.

Dale · October 7, 2008, 18:42

Quote:

Originally posted by The Rusty Gamer
If you are returning a ship back to the side of the map it came from, it should always end up in approx the same place it left. That is one of the core elements of Col gameplay and shouldn't be changed IMO. Hance, no third button.

Hmmm...I suppose you could create a founding father that gives more flexibility in sailing from Europe...being able to go north east, east, south east, north west, west, south west.

that reminds me, I noticed when looking through some of the code that you are suppose to also be able to sail north or south to get to Europe. Of course, some maps don't allow for that I think since the land blocks north and south. But does it work? Are there maps scripts out there that allow for north or south sailing to Europe?

Yeah, I'll be changing it back so if you return to the same side, you return to where you left. But if you switch sides (or first trip after being bought in Europe) then the ship will go to the average closeness to your colonies as it is doing now.

The Rusty Gamer · October 7, 2008, 22:46

Since you have increased the cost of horses, do you think it would be right, for game balance, to increase tool prices as well. I notice that the raw material (ore) has a higher price than the finished product (tools). This doesn't seem right to me. You can get more from selling ore than making the effort of turning it into tools first. Either increase tool price or decrease ore price or a mixture of both. As long as the buying/selling price of tools is more than ore, that seems right to me.

rf_900 · October 8, 2008, 05:19

Quote:

Since you have increased the cost of horses, do you think it would be right, for game balance, to increase tool prices as well. I notice that the raw material (ore) has a higher price than the finished product (tools). This doesn't seem right to me. You can get more from selling ore than making the effort of turning it into tools first.

Ore should be lower, like in the original game, both wood and ore were nearly worthless in Europe. Tools should be higher, maybe like horses and surely lower than muskets.

Now that horses are more expensive a good way to get money and troops is lost. Wouldn't this make the game much harder, less things to trade with indians and the need for the pesky ranch.

Maybe now it will be better to have foot troops than dragoons?

Refar · October 8, 2008, 06:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Dale Will look at it later (at work now). It's wierd that it's doing this, I tested this pretty extensively.

I am really very sure, i set it up now exactly like you recommend.
I wouldnt bother you in the first place if i wouldn't be fairly certain that nothing i did - at least as far as i am aware of - causing the trouble.

I think it is somehing with the World generation process - perhaps something got screwed up when the map was generated.

I also wonder if someone else run into this. No one say something, but then again - i think most of the time people play at one coast... Might go unnoticed in many games...
(I wouln't notice too, but i started experimenting, because on the one map i was playing, where it actually worked the ship come back in the unexpected spot)

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Could someone else please try this - its really fast:

Create a Tiny "A_New_World" Map.
Play as Dutch with the Merchantman.
Sail west (Drop the 2 dudes you have out, if you happen to hit land, i think it doesn't matter.)

Once you found the west passage to europe send the MM back home.
When it arrives in Europe, Save.

Now from that savegame, send the Ship back using the button on top, wait till it arrives.

The reload and send it back with the button on the bottom, and wait till it arrives.

For me it arrives both times on the same side.

Dale · October 8, 2008, 06:58

Yeah I've been able to recreate this. Bug hunting it now. Thanks for the good pickup.

Dale · October 8, 2008, 07:21

Bug found and squished.

Refar · October 8, 2008, 08:03

Cool.

Out of curiousity - what made the difference why it work or not ?

Dale · October 8, 2008, 08:40

My stupidity.

Seriously, I had the incorrect base value when locating the best return plot. As such, it would find one in some cases causing the ship to return where it came from instead of switching sides.

Refar · October 8, 2008, 09:18

I see - this might explain why it was broken on qiuck tests rushing west right away, while in "normal gameplay" it worked - exploring more of the map before discovering/using the west passage.

N35t0r · October 8, 2008, 11:21

Okay, playing on marathon, huge america map. I just sent some treasure (roughly 5k) using the king's delivery service, and a couple of turns later (it's now turn 20) the king asks me for the other 2.5k as tax.

Shouldn't 'transport fees' count as tax?

Refar · October 8, 2008, 12:46

The lump sum he's asking for is not tax. And you will not loose goods by refusing it, so just refuse. (Tho i too think it's annoying. I.e. the English King seem to be the most annoying virtual Character ever)

snoopy369 · October 8, 2008, 14:36

Dale - one thing we probably need to add to the "to be fixed reasonably soon" side is figuring out how to address the REF not coming over quickly enough for a victory (REF units remaining overseas and not coming over by the final turn), like in Fleme's thread etc.

My proposed options, I think:

1. Fix the AI to know how long is left and send things based on that - ie, if you DoI with 80 turns left, send the REF evenly spaced out over turns left 80-30, say (or some reasonable ending number), if not faster (for whatever other reasons it sends the REF out at particular times). Easier, but requires AI coding

2. Fix the ending point to be non-static, and simply require the DoI by turn 300 (or adjust that to an earlier date). Harder, and affects other things, but is also something several people have asked for (presumably would be a popular request).

3. Leave it as is, and have a warning at a certain point that the REF may not entirely come over if you don't DoI by a certain point.

snoopy369 · October 8, 2008, 14:40

Quote:

Originally posted by N35t0r
Okay, playing on marathon, huge america map. I just sent some treasure (roughly 5k) using the king's delivery service, and a couple of turns later (it's now turn 20) the king asks me for the other 2.5k as tax.

Shouldn't 'transport fees' count as tax?

They're actually not directly related. The second request is just a normal lump-sum tax, not related to the treasure except in that he asks for your lump-sum based on your current gold holdings (so it's a similar amount because, well, you have that much gold ...)

If you're playing unpatched, it does virtually nothing to decline. If you are playing with the patch, accepting the request will cause the REF to increase much slower.

Refar · October 8, 2008, 14:47

There might be 4) Adjust the the victory condition - if the Player Declared Inependance and the time Run out, he win Time Victory (Rather than loosing Europe Loss) as the King failed to Kill him in time. So (Assuming Indy and Europe victory is on, as per Default):

If you don't DoI at all and time runs out, you loose Europe.
If you DoI and time runs out, you win Europe.
If you DoI and kill Kings troops, you win Independance.

It leaves space for a Victory DoIng on the last turn, but the Time victory will give you puny score anyway, so i think it is not a real Exploit.

snoopy369 · October 8, 2008, 16:27

I think that requires a fundamental change - "Win = Independent" is the current mindset, and that would be a more fundamental shift than I'd prefer in a patch (even though it's probably simpler than most of the above suggestions...)

I'd like to have a few victory conditions, really, but I'm not sure that is patch-level modifications, unless it turns out Firaxis likes it ...

Refar · October 8, 2008, 17:50

On another note... Do you guys consider adressing price change mechanics ? Or is is too much on the Mod side ?

There are some threads on CFC about Prices droping and never recovering being uncool.

Also Firaxis put a "Market Correlation" parameter in the XML, but left it zero - so i suppose they were planing on a more elaborate system, but did not get it done.

I am thinking along this lines:

Highly Correlate European Markets (75 - 100 %)
Make prices fluctuate faster (i.e. after less goods being sold/bought)
But make Prices recover over time (By slowly decaying the Goods Sold counters)

MontyLaremane · October 8, 2008, 18:19

I've taken another look at the REF reduction stuff (see posts 87-90 on page 3) and added some logging into the code to see it's effect at that level (diff attached, against version 1.05).

From the numbers dumped out, it looks like the iKingUnitThresholdPercent is not having the desired effect because of the rounding to integers. When iKingUnitThresholdPercent = 90 (on hardest difficulty) the bellRateMultiplier is 0 (when I think you expect it to be 9). That will have some effect on the REF, but I don't think it'll be what's expected and might end up a lot more drastic!

I think a similar problem affects the gold based REF reduction, but that's harder to test because auto-running the AI means the king doesn't demand any money from you. Cheating AI?!

Quote:

Originally posted by Ellestar

Now, my question is why do you bother with getRevolutionEuropeUnitThresholdMultiplier() at all? If i understand it correctly, it doesn't significantly change REF size, as it just defines when units will start to be added in batches of 2,3,4... units. Actually, with your approach you may as well increase REF, since REF increase triggers with a smaller getRevolutionEuropeUnitThresholdMultiplier() and a number of units added in that increase will happen with a bigger getRevolutionEuropeUnitThresholdMultiplier()

Looking deeper into getRevolutionEuropeUnitThresholdMultiplier() I agree with Ellestar's post that this multiplier won't have the effect we're craving. Increasing that modifier will increase the time between the next REF change but will also increase the number of units added at those changes, so overall the effect isn't as big (and I think it's difficult to measure nicely as it's a weird exponential progression).

An easier number to play with might be the variable passed to changeBellsStored(). An alternative handicap modifier could be applied to that so at easier levels something like 75% of the bells created in your colonies count towards increasing the REF, but at harder levels that's increased to 120%. Does that sound plausible?

That's about as much calculation as my brain can take for one evening . . . don't know how you guys manage all the modding and stay sane!

Refar · October 8, 2008, 18:26

There is another REF Related thing: The Units you buy from the King via Diplo do add a lot (The Price You paid) to your BellsStored counte (and hence the REF).

So from buying a few units you will get a huge increase in BellsStored.

snoopy369 · October 8, 2008, 19:13

Hmm, Monty, thanks for the analysis... I'm fairly sure Dale's change has some effect, because he ran quite a few runs to make sure it was a smaller REF on the easier levels, but I'll take a look at it when I have a chance (possibly today, possibly no) ...

Refar, buying units from the king SHOULD add to your REF as far as I'm concerned.