About beelining to Industrial Automation...

[Action]

I get Industrial Base, Industrial Economics, Planetary Networks, Information Networks, all the pre reqs but usually it doesn't let me research Industrial Automation until I research 1-2 more, seemingly random techs.

I get all the pre reqs, but I still can't always research it.

Why not?

[Flubber]

As you will note, you do not get the option of all available techs, each turn. In fact, I have seen situations where I was only given the choice of 1 tech, even though I was only in the middle of the tech tree.

I have never quite understood all the mechanics of it and instead just threw centauri ecology in as one of my first techs and then found ind auto appeared.

I have seen theories on how techs are presented . For example one person claimed that one of the tech selections is a " joker" selection and will ALWAYS appear until you acquire it while the others will appear or not.

Sorry-- this was a long-winded way of saying I don't know

[joncnunn]

The number that appear also have something to do with which difficulty level your on. (The higher your difficulty level, the fewer the options)

[Jac de Molay]

It is kind of weird. I just started to play with directed tech, and noticed how quickly it throws up some pretty serious mid-game techs, but it takes a while to get the prereqs for Env. Economics, which is my personal "holy grail"

[Lazerus]

Its a real killer when you beeline for something and it doesnt appear, and your tech rate starts to slow down dragging out the time it takes to get it even more.

[Fazdaar]

At least with the university, if you research centauri ecology first, you can then go straight to industrial automation without pausing. I'm not sure if this is the same for other factions or not.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Fazdaar
At least with the university, if you research centauri ecology first, you can then go straight to industrial automation without pausing. I'm not sure if this is the same for other factions or not.

I have found the same with the morganites-- having experienced this, I go centauri ecology first

[Action]

I should have mentioned, I always get Centauri Ecology before I start beelining.

But this has still happened with the Cyborgs and the Hive on Transcend.

Mainly I just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong. If thats just how the game works it's fine.

Thanks

[Minute Mirage]

What's this I've heard about the turn-order affecting the given choices? That is, if your faction is in the #1 slot you always get the same choices, but if it's in another slot the choices might be different. Any confirmation for this?

[Curiosity]

AFAIK, the way the tech choices work is as follows;

A given tech has an associated number, t, which refers to it's position in the list of techs in Alphax.txt. These go from 0-73 (or whatever the number of techs is.)

If n is the number of techs the player has acquired, then a tech can be researched providing :-

(n + t) mod 3 !=0

or, if it's explore, build, discover and conquer values, added together, are the lowest of any available choice. (The Joker Tech)

This is largely the same as in CivII.

I can't remember if starting techs count towards n.

Oh, and on the first try you can research any available tech, unless it's a scenario start.

The result is that you can follow any beeline you want, providing you can use strategic trading of techs. At least, if you can be bothered... :) It's annoying to work it all out.

[Snowflake]

A simple rule that I heard, not sure if it is true, is that sometimes the game would not allow you to research two techs in same color consecutively.

[CEO Aaron]

My Morgan tech progression is typically thus:
Biogenics (So I can put my 100 EC's seed money to work right away).
Centauri Ecology (Formers, duhy).
Industry Economics (For switch to FM)
Information Networks
Planetary Networks
Industrial Automation

So clearly, the 'no 2 same-color techs' theory is invalid, as you can see, I've got 2 discover techs in a row in this beeline, and I never fail to get these choices, provided I don't have any other techs from other sources (pods, trade, etc). For this reason, I typically avoid contact with other factions, and turn down trades, until I can get IA under my belt. From that point forward, things get a bit more loose, but the following beeline is pretty common for me:

Social Psych (Rec. Commons and access to...)
Secrets of the Human Brain (This almost never yields the free tech, but if you're running FM, trance is your FRIEND).
Ethical Calculus (Creches and access to...)
Gene Splicing (Raises Nut restrictions)
Ecological Engineering (Raises Mineral Restrictions)
Environmental Economics (Tree Farms, Raises Energy Restrictions)

In most games, you'll be unable to grab all of these in a row, which is why I have a list of 'branch techs' that I know I'll want soon after Tree Farms. Some good branch techs are:

Neural Grafting (Great tech for Free Marketeers, since it gives The Neural Amplifier, and access to...)
Bio-Engineering (Clean Reactors. Need I say more?)

If you find yourself in a military pinch, and in need of superior firpower, these are the branch techs you'll also want to develop:

Applied Physics (Lasers, and leads to...)
High Energy Chemistry (Plasma Steel and introducing...)
Synthetic Fossil Feuls (Missiles, and Air Power on the way)

Finally, if you're on a peaceful bent, and don't feel threatened by your neighbors, consider the following additions to your tech beeline:

Progenitor Psych (Uninspiring by itself, but with the addition of...)
Adaptive Economics (Gives you the Planetary Energy Grid, every Free Marketeer's wet-dream project.)

As you can see, Environmental Economics is only 13 techs deep on the tech tree, 12 if you start with one of the pre-requisite techs at the beginning of the game. Not really too far to go, if you keep your priorities in mind. If you're planning a builder strategy, you should ALWAYS keep these critical techs in mind when you advance.

[Kody]

Thanks,

Your information is most helpful.

When numbered 1 to 74(not sure of end number), and counting the starting tech the formula works.

[johndmuller]

Originally posted by Curiosity
AFAIK, the way the tech choices work is as follows:
A given tech has an associated number, t, which refers to it's position in the list of techs in Alphax.txt ...; n is the number of techs the player has acquired, then a tech can be researched providing :-
(n + t) mod 3 !=0

or, if it's explore, build, discover and conquer values, added together, are the lowest of any available choice. (The Joker Tech)
...
Very Nice post Curiosity :b:

Your presentation seems to be consistent with (not to mention simpler and more direct than) some of the old CIV II posts I've read on this, although this is the first time I can recall seeing an exact formulation of the determination of the Joker/Wildcard tech. Thank you.

Do you know how it handles ties in the category totals?

I wonder if it explains the reported differences in bee-lines between factions (and perhaps less credibly between turn order slots) - it might, due to differences in starting techs, or there might be an additional factor, such as the factions' own power/tech/wealth/growth entries in the faction files. Have you checked that out?

[HeymlicH]

Start a game. Save it as scenario. Start the Scenario. You will always be able to choose from all techs in the scenario. (I don't like this)

[Minute Mirage]

Thank you for the information Curiosity, I'm trying to test it out.

Observations: I'm not sure if the joker tech part is correct. Consider the following scenario: I'm playing the Gaians on transcend difficulty, 1st slot. The techs I've researched so far are

Centauri Ecology
Information Networks
Planetary Networks
Industrial Base
Doctrine: Mobility
Progenitor Psych.

According to your formula, the following techs should be available:

Field Modulation
Polymorphic Software
Social Psych.

However, Doctrine: Flexibility is also available, even though the sum of its explore, build, discover and conquer values is 7 and the equivalent number for both Social Psych and Polymorphic Software is 6.

Another example a bit later from the same game:

Researched Technologies:

Centauri Ecology
Information Networks
Planetary Networks
Industrial Base
Doctrine: Mobility
Progenitor Psych
Doctrine: Flexibility
Social Psych

Choices:

Applied Physics
Biogenetics
Ethical Calculus
Industrial Economics

Polymorphic Software doesn't appear now, even though the sum of its explore, build, discover and conquer values is 6, which is the minimum of all techs available.

[HeymlicH]

@curiosity:

the good thing with the modulo is, they can be added. This means, you have nothing more to do then dividing the techs into 3 large groups. The modulo 1 group techs can't be researched if you already have k*3+2 techs.

I remember there was a big plan in the box - it would be a good idea to note in that plan for each tech the value 3 - (t mod 3).

then you start to work out your research plan. The first tech gets number 1 you continue with 2,3, then start again with 1. Whenever a tech gets the number noted in the big plan it is not available at this time.

So it is not difficult to work out the plan. However, it might be difficult to understand my explanation. Maybe someone who is able to figure out what I mean can explain it better :D

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by HeymlicH

I remember there was a big plan in the box - it would be a good idea to note in that plan for each tech the value 3 - (t mod 3).



You mean the technology tree? Yes, I suppose that could work. What I personally did was to create an excel worksheet that shows the choices you have depending on the techs you have researched. Unfortunately, I've got trouble with the joker techs as mentioned in my previous post.

[Curiosity]

John,

I only did this research because my tech path was screwing up in a multi-faction game, so I stopped when I knew enough to trade techs around without screwing everything up. So, my knowledge of this has some gaps in it.

I will check out how the factions differ - I hadn't given this much credibility myself, but from a game the other night I suspect it may well be the faction's slot which makes a difference, since I wasn't able to go straight to IA with the UoP - something which never happened to me before. I'd guess at a formula of
(slotID + n + t) mod 3 != 0,
if this is the case.

I think ties are broken by order in the tech tree (resulting in always being able to research T. thought, which is handy.) I'll have to modify alphax.txt to check it out.

[Minute Mirage]

I think I've got the basic formula figured out now. This is what seems to work for me:

t = position of tech in alphax.txt (0-88)
n = total number of technologies for the faction
b = number of technologies at the beginning of the game for the faction
s= slot number of the faction

The condition is

(n + t + s - b) mod 3 != 0

Worth noting here is "b", which for normal factions (Gaians) is 1, for some others (University, Pirates) 2 and for the Progenitors 5.

In addition to this come the joker techs, the formula to which I haven't been able to figure out yet. I'm afraid Curiosity's suggestion doesn't work for me.

[Kody]

I've noticed that it usually likes green techs. In fact a few months ago I was trying to figure out the way it caculated available techs and I noticed it always showed a green tech, except when there were no green techs available.

Another interesting point to make the Joker tech seems to always be the first in the listing of techs.

Edit:
From what I can see the joker tech is the first green tech available in the alphax.txt list.

[Kody]

You had to join the University Minute Mirage. *sniffs sadly* So many missed strategy discussions.

[Kody]

The joker tech seems to be the first green tech in the alphax.txt you have the pre-reqs for.

If you research all the green techs I think there is no joker tech.

I haven't figured out what happens if all the green techs are gone, but I think there's no joker tech. The problem I'm having is SMAX crashes when I try to change the pre-reqs of certain techs.

Edit:

Been thinking about it, and I'm guessing the joker tech is the first that would appear in the available tech to research list. The listing of techs appear to work in the order of Green, White, Yellow and Red.

So it first finds out all the green techs and lists them in the order it appears in the alphax.txt and then finds all the white techs, and so on. To prevent the case of being unable to choose a tech, the game always enables the first tech it can list that you have preqs for.

I have yet to test this by disabling all the green techs. However, this kind of setup would make sense.

[Curiosity]

Kody's correct; my explaination for the Joker tech was biased by the fact that Mobility, Flexibility and Initiative all have low combined values, and they're normally the Jokers. A less perverse mind than mine would have realized that they're all Explore techs first. :)

I've tested Kody's explaination through the Explore, Discover and Build techs, so it's pretty solid.


MM,

Though my testing of this was limited, I'd say you have it there. :b:

[johndmuller]

I've never really tried to nail down the determination of the joker tech, but I have collected data for a while in my PBEMS as to what was offered, mostly with an eye to confirming the rotation of the withheld techs - the mod 3 thing in this threads language. Unfortunately, trading, stealing, popping or whatever other ways there are to get techs besides researching them tend to cloud the issue, making it hard enough to monitor the 1 in 3 thing, let alone the joker, which you have to studiously avoid getting it for some time if you are going to establish that it really is appearing in all 3 groups; like if you make one trade, then you have to get 2 more techs to get back on that group again.

Anyway, I do have a collection of data, limited to some extent by the effect of trades, etc, and sometimes by forgetting to record the choices in the excitement of finally getting a long awaited tech; at some point I will try to analyze it in the context here and see if anything pops up.

I'm pretty sure I've seen ProgenPsych as a wild card, but I think I've also seen it skipped under similar, but not I imagine quite identical circumstances, where I think that EthicalCalc was the wild card instead. The same with Centauri Ecology; I know I have seen that skipped and it is a really bad way to start the game. I don't have any recollections regarding Doc:Mobility, but wouldn't one of them be a candidate for the el primo joker according to the earliest green theory?

My notion is that with the possible exception of some sort of factional adjustment, the whole tech offering thing is controlled by the Tech Tree section of the Alpha(x).txt file(s), without the need for the program to go hunting through very much other stuff. According to that theory, the Tech Tree (in conjunction with the techs you already have, to determine what you are eliible for) would have some rule applied to it, like first available green tech (an entry whose ai-colonize value was higher than the other categories) - that particular rule would make Doc:Mobility the ultimate wild card, then Centauri Ecology. Highest green value available tech would give the nod to ProgenPsych.

The particular column it looked at might depend on the faction's (factionname).txt file; such a variation would make Morgan look for a build tech, as that is the only category he cares about. The Spartans would go for Conquer or Discover I suppose. I don't really know how it would hanclle ties in the faction file, but if green is an observed priority, then perhaps it is just the reverse order of categories, i.e. Explore, Build, Discover, Conquer.

BTW, there are a couple of strange looking factions in there - ever heard of the Outlaws? (They can't use 'Controlled Protocols')

[Minute Mirage]

Well, I think we've got pretty much everything figured out now. The joker tech seems to be determined by the method Kody described: If there are any Explore techs with both the prerequisites researched, it's the Explore tech that is the highest in alphax.txt. If there are no Explore techs, it's a Discover tech. If there are no Explore or Discover techs, it's a Build tech. If there are no other techs, it's a Conquer tech.

While there's no specific column in alphax.txt that specifies the category a given tech belongs to, the category can be determined from the maximum value of the ai-mil, ai-tech, ai-infra and ai-colonize values of the tech, just like johndmuller said. That is, if a tech has the following values: 2, 3, 2, 0, its maximum value is 3, which is on the ai-tech column. Thus, it is an explore tech. If I'm not mistaken, the only technology that has its maximum value in two columns instead of one is Ethical Calculus. Otherwise its very easy to determine the category of a technology just by these four values.

What I did was to copy alphax.txt into Excel, after which the technologies available to research can be determined as long as the following information is known: technologies researched, # of starting techs and the slot number of the faction.

[Snowflake]

Good work guys! :b: Would it be possible for you to attach the excel file here?

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by HongHu
Would it be possible for you to attach the excel file here?

I suppose I can do it, once I've finished it. I'm still making some cosmetic enhancements and adding macros to make adding new technologies to the list of researched technologies easier.

[johndmuller]

MinuteMirage, I think that ai-tech is equivalent to Discover, not explore.

I think the corresponcences within alpha(x).txt are are :
ai-mil = Conquer .... aka Power in some contexts
ai-tech = Discover .... aka Knowledge
ai-infra = Build ........ aka Wealth
ai-colonize = Explore ... aka Growth

I am still not sure that the scheme is always the same; there have been reports that certain factions cannot follow the same beelines, thus the various alternatives that I tossed out above. In order to establish that it was always the same, some games would have to be played (carefully, to make sure you establish the joker tech) with a variety of factions. Many of the factions feature colonize/growth/explore in their faction files category biases as either the favorite or co-favorite, so if ties go to Explore, then many of the factions would behave the same, possibly leading a would be theorist down a garden path - thus a good test should include some factions which favor other categories, like Morgan and Infra/Build/Wealth or Sparta, with Conquer or Discover bias. This could be a rather tedious test, so it is probably more fun to just talk about it instead.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by johndmuller
MinuteMirage, I think that ai-tech is equivalent to Discover, not explore.

That's true, I meant Discover but typed Explore instead.

Originally posted by johndmuller
I think the corresponcences within alpha(x).txt are are :
ai-mil = Conquer .... aka Power in some contexts
ai-tech = Discover .... aka Knowledge
ai-infra = Build ........ aka Wealth
ai-colonize = Explore ... aka Growth


I agree.

Originally posted by johndmuller
I am still not sure that the scheme is always the same; there have been reports that certain factions cannot follow the same beelines, thus the various alternatives that I tossed out above. In order to establish that it was always the same, some games would have to be played (carefully, to make sure you establish the joker tech) with a variety of factions. Many of the factions feature colonize/growth/explore in their faction files category biases as either the favorite or co-favorite, so if ties go to Explore, then many of the factions would behave the same, possibly leading a would be theorist down a garden path - thus a good test should include some factions which favor other categories, like Morgan and Infra/Build/Wealth or Sparta, with Conquer or Discover bias. This could be a rather tedious test, so it is probably more fun to just talk about it instead.

I can do some more testing with the different factions. It's not that tedious when you activate the scenario editor and obtain a new tech by pressing SHIFT+F2.

[Minute Mirage]

Here is the excel file. If you have problems with it let me know. I've included macros to facilitate inserting new technologies, but the worksheet should work even if they are disabled.


johndmuller:

I just made a test with the Morgans and the joker tech seems to be determined just like with all the others factions. Basically, the joker tech is always the first one of the available choices.

EDIT: Removed the file, there's a newer version available later in the thread.

[Kody]

Minute Mirage,

I have to say that is very very impressive work with the excel file.
Makes my attempts at using Excel look like preschooler stuff.

[Kody]

Minute Mirage,

While you have 1-7 for the slot numbers. I believe the actual effect on the forumla is 0-6. If that is true then your mod is +1 more than what it should be.

Can you double check my answer to see whether or not I made a mistake?

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by Kody
Minute Mirage,

While you have 1-7 for the slot numbers. I believe the actual effect on the forumla is 0-6. If that is true then your mod is +1 more than what it should be.

Can you double check my answer to see whether or not I made a mistake?

How have you numbered the tech positions in alphax.txt? I numbered them starting with 0 (Biogenetics), and this seems to work for me. If you start the numbering with 1 for Biogenetics, then you have to reduce 1 from the slot numbers, if I'm not mistaken.

Originally posted by Kody
Minute Mirage,

I have to say that is very very impressive work with the excel file.
Makes my attempts at using Excel look like preschooler stuff.



Thank you for the compliment. Nevertheless, I'm not very experienced in Excel, so there might be bugs left in the file and there's certainly bound to be room for improvement. So any comments are welcome.

[Kody]

Hrmm maybe we haven't solved it.....

It's got something to do with tech skipping or trading.
I'm trying to figure out what's causing the problem now.

Edit:
It appears the formula changes when you make your first tech trade.
I remember having to toggle one of the techs in the simulator to make it simulate the tech availability. I don't know why that never occurred to me when we were discussing it.

[Kody]

Well I figured it the last bit.

It crossed my mind that I could be a bastard and not tell anyone the final peice of the puzzle. However, if others had kept quiet I wouldn't have been able to get to where I currently am in understanding.

Basically I believe the starting tech adjustment only works until you do your first tech trade. After you have traded techs the starting tech adjustment is no longer used in the formula.

You need to do a Ctrl-F2 change tech to switch to remove the starting tech part of the formula.

[Kody]

Yep I think I've hit the head of the nail.

After you've traded techs the starting techs is no-longer part of the formula. I've tested it with the Hive and University, after toggling a tech it switched to a different formula. That formula didn't subtract the starting tech from the mod.

Sneaky. I think they specifically did that to stop people from figuring out how the tech availability was calculated.

[Minute Mirage]

Kody's explanation appears to be correct, at least in the scenario editor. I'd still like to test this in actual game play and I'm also wondering if it makes any difference whether the game is single- or multiplayer.

Anyway, I modified the file to take Kody's observation into account. There's now a "Traded technologies" Yes/No switch, which should provide the effect Kody described.

EDIT: Removed the file, there's a newer version available later in the thread.

[Snowflake]

Tested it out, works great. It may be better if instead of yes/no for traded tech, a combo box could be inserted where people can add traded tech there. I will also start some SP games and look at my pbem to see if it works right.

I have one question. Now everybody could edit alpha.txt, so if in a case a tech you desired is not available to you, wouldn't it be easy to solve if you simply edit the txt file and change the order of the techs? That would be a cheat though. Just wondering if this means that.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by HongHu
Tested it out, works great. It may be better if instead of yes/no for traded tech, a combo box could be inserted where people can add traded tech there. I will also start some SP games and look at my pbem to see if it works right.

You can already add the traded techs in the "Add new technology box". The only time the "Traded technologies" switch needs to be changed is when you receive the first traded tech. I could of course edit the Add_Tech macro so that it changes this switch to "Yes" automatically when a tech is added with the "Add" button. However, I like to use the "Add" button for adding other than traded technologies too, e.g. Doctrine: Loyalty when I'm testing the Hive.

Originally posted by HongHu
I have one question. Now everybody could edit alpha.txt, so if in a case a tech you desired is not available to you, wouldn't it be easy to solve if you simply edit the txt file and change the order of the techs? That would be a cheat though. Just wondering if this means that.

I suppose so, assuming that changing the order doesn't break anything. It would indeed be a cheat, though.

[Snowflake]

I wonder if different orders of tech exist for a multiplayer game what kind of disruption could be brought about.

For the add tech stuff, what you have now a user has to type the tech in right? Also, what is the significance of Doc Loyalty? Couse in a game I was Hive and seems the formula needs to be changed be reducing 1, or something like that. Is that because of the level 2 pregiven tech?

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by HongHu

For the add tech stuff, what you have now a user has to type the tech in right? Also, what is the significance of Doc Loyalty? Couse in a game I was Hive and seems the formula needs to be changed be reducing 1, or something like that. Is that because of the level 2 pregiven tech?

No, you don't have to type in anything. When you select the "Add new technology" square (G20) or any of the squares in the "Researched technology" list (A3:A100) an arrow will appear to the right of the square. When you click that arrow a dropdown box will appear, where you can select the desired tech by clicking it.

The reason I mentioned Doctrine:Loyalty, is that it can't normally be researched at the beginning of the game before its prerequisites have been discovered. This means that I can't add the tech by clicking any of the "Research" buttons which is what I normally do.

Could you explain more closely the situation where the formula didn't work? Since you were the Hive, you had probably selected the number of starting techs as 1? Was the slot number correct as well as the "Traded technologies" switch? According to my experience the level of the starting tech shouldn't matter (and it's not specified in alphax.txt either).

[johndmuller]

:b: Minute Mirage: Very impressive spreadsheet indeed.

Haven't had a chance to do much with it, but just wanted to give you the requisite kudos for the extremely professional looking job.

Regarding differences between SP and MP - I think that you may find some differences between games started by a Scenario versus games started by the regular game process. Tech offerings in the ACDG PBEM were definitely a little different (for the Pirates at least) than with a non-scenario PBEN with the same cast in the same turn order (same slots). There is a bit of a discussion in our <strike>Death to the Unauthorized Viewer</strike> confidential forum, and maybe somewhere else also. Generating a scenario with the same cast as in the ACDG seemed to create the same tech choices (although with only a half dozen tests or so).

In a task force similar to this one which did the definitive analysis leading to the current understanding of ecodamage and the remedial effects of various GoodFacs etc, the initial barrier we faced was massive skepticism based on prior extensive testing using the Scenario Editor, which showed no benefits. It turns out that GoodFacs placed by the Scenario Editor do not have the beneficial effects that GoodFacs actually Built in-game (apparently the game engine juggles some counters that the Scenario Editor does not).

That is not to say that the Scenario Editor is not accurate in this case, I only mention that to suggest caution in generalizing results based on the ScenEd. In order for them to always track in lockstep, they would both have to be updated whenever a game tweak were made and that would require a level of professionalism like that of Minute Mirage's spreadsheet, which would be expecting a lot and no doubt more than even Firaxis themselves would want to claim in their puffiest marketing fluff.

The difference between Scenario'd games and regular ones may quite well be just a matter of the tech counter not being updated when techs are added by the Scenario Editor when the CMN sets up the game (t seems that a Scenario starts with no techs in any faction and thus all are added manually by the creator) while the counter may be upated by the game itself when it initializes the factions. For openers, there would be a difference of 1 tech in the count of techs (2 for those factions which start out with 2 techs); I imagine that just that difference (let alone the 2 tech faction thing) would effect a shift in the beelines.

Other subtle things may occur also; like the SP's that give you new techs may not update the counter - there may be some dumb omissions like not counting techs that the Borg get if they conquer a base, or ones that come from pods - who knows. I can't say that I have experienced any odd stuff with one faction versus another, but I haven't really tried to keep track of the jokers or even the beelines (a probable flaw in my game), I've only been dealing with the rotation of the unavailable group among the three groups of techs and to my knowledge, have been one of the few people interested in even that until now.

Anyway, I would expect some difference with games started using the Scenario Editor, and it could be either a 2nd set of beelines due to having the starting counter off by 1, or it could be several different sets based on how many starting techs a faction has. BTW, in a regular game the Uni's second tech is given out by the game and I think that most CMN's if not all, request Uni's 2nd tech from the player in advance and plug it in with the Scenario editor, either because it has to be done that way, or because the CMN needs to play out a turn to set passwords and timker with the AI's first turn manually by running it in the ScenEd.

[Kody]

They request the 2nd tech from the university in advance mainly because they need to set the passwords and you can't delay choosing the 1 free tech for a turn.

Whether the starting techs have an effect depends on whether the CMN has tinkered with the techs using the ctrl-F12 method. If the CMN used ctrl-F12 to adjust the techs, that seems to anull the effect of the starting techs from the equation as if the faction had already traded techs.

I'm guessing there are really only two different ways the techs are added to a faction. Either via normal research, this would probably include researching normalying, bonus techs that the player gets to choose and shift-F12 in the scenerio editor. Then there would be specifically added techs which aren't choosen through the normal research screen. These would include tech steal, probe tech steal, pod popping techs, AA techs, tech trading, and ctrl-F12 in the scenerio editor.

I haven't tested the possibilities, but I'm guessing the game has two different ways to add techs. The way which adds specific techs forces a recalculate of the tech counter. While the way that researchs techs via the research screen doesn't recalcualte the tech counter just adds one. Which is why the tech counter seem to start at 0 not counting the starting techs and then updates to the correct number of techs when you do your first trade.

Of course this is all theory until someone attempts to apply the formula and finds a discrepency. However, it looks like we've covered many of the possibilities. When I complained about the formula being wrong back in this post (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=2336034#post2336034). It was because I was double checking the forumla in two PBEM games I have access to. One which Googlie set up (but didn't get very far), and another I setup (seems stalled too).

So that's 2 PBEM games where the forumla appears to work. HongHu asked me to double check one of her PBEM games, and it appeared to apply there too. The cases where there may still be problems would be in the case of techs via probes and CyCon tech steal. However I'm fairly certain those would work the same as tech trading.

[Minute Mirage]

The only exception I've found to Kody's theory is with the University in the democracy game. I don't want to bore you with unnecessary details about the technologies we have researched, but the choices are off by 1 regardless of whether I assume that Googlie has used CTRL+F2 or SHIFT+F2. That means that the choices are incorrect both when I set "Traded technologies" to "Yes" and when I set it to "No". If I want the choices to be correct I have to change the slot number away from "2".

This would suggest that there's still something that changes the numbering of techs and I'm trying to do some additional testing to find out what it could be.

[Snowflake]

Right now in my pbem it seems that when the mod is 2 then the tech would not be available for me. This may have something to do with how the game was set up. I am Hive and only had one given tech but cent ecology was not among the first batch of available techs.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by HongHu
Right now in my pbem it seems that when the mod is 2 then the tech would not be available for me. This may have something to do with how the game was set up. I am Hive and only had one given tech but cent ecology was not among the first batch of available techs.

So you mean that you currently have Doctrine:Loyalty and when you chose your first tech to be researched, Centauri Ecology wasn't in the list? I assumed that all the techs should be available in the first choice, but I guess that is not the case.

[Snowflake]

That's right. Isn't that odd? Never figured out what is the reason. What I know for sure is that Darsnan had made a change so that flexibility was not required before you build sea colony pod. In the game we had to add a rule so that nobody would build sea bases before flex. Don't know if that means anything.

[johndmuller]

As I understand the theory to date, it is a variaation of the basic equation published by Minute Mirage - I'm quoting the basic version below so we can look at it on this page of the thread and to be sure we are talking about the same thing.

Originally posted by Minute Mirage

t = position of tech in alphax.txt (0-88)
n = total number of technologies for the faction
b = number of technologies at the beginning of the game for the faction
s= slot number of the faction (1-7)

The condition is

(n + t + s - b) mod 3 != 0

Worth noting here is "b", which for normal factions (Gaians) is 1, for some others (University, Pirates) 2 and for the Progenitors 5.


If I understood the variation correctly, once the faction trades a tech for the first time (or if the game had been originally set up by the Scenario Editor and the CMN had inserted techs in there) then the "b" term is zero. (I think I got that straight, if I got it backwards, perhaps Kody or MM will point that out.)

There is still a problem with the University needing an additional +1 adjustment.

--------------------------------

This is purported to have worked for SP and for PBEM's started both by the built in "NewGame" mechanism and by utilizing the Scenario Editor.

As I understand it, the spreadsheet is supposed to work for the initial choices as well; if so, ther may be a problem, at least with the Pirates, having 2 starting techs, slot 5, for which the spreadsheet offers CentEcol. ProgenPsych, Biogen, InfoNets, and AppPhysics, withholding IndBase and SocPsych, whereas the actual initial offering (assuming my test notes are accurate, and I am reasonably confident of that) is instead all 7 possible techs in an SP or "New Game" generated PBEM. No combination of slot numbers or initial tech settings seemed to make it show all 7. I know you'all mentioned the initial offerings earlier in the thread, but I thought that you said that you had that covered; that does not seem to be the case here, maybe I misunderstood something, or maybe there is a problem.

With the "Traded" toggle on, it offers CentEcol. ProgenPsych, Biogen, IndBase, SocPsych, and AppPhysics, withholding InfoNets, which is correct for a Scenario Generated version. I doubt that it matters, but if you're interested anyway, the other factions were set up to mimic the ACDG cast and turn order in all cases and the Scenario Generated version was either the ACDG itself or a similar verion I created adding the techs in manually via the ScenEd.

-----------------------------------

I couldn't see in the macros where the formula was applied or how the "traded" button changed it or where the program stored which techs were discovered or its other variables, but they are obviously in there somewhere.

If I might suggest an improvement or 2:
- I would find it helpful if the techs that were otherwise available but for the floating mod 3 withholding were also listed, differentiated somehow, like with a different color scheme or in a separate table
- a "Reset" button to clear the tech list would also be nice
- if it were possible to present the Researched Technologies column in a different sequence from the current one (which appears to be in Alpha(x).txt order), that could be helpful too. Ideally, there would be several alternatives, including: the order they were researched; alphabetically; a Tech Tree form (like Build 1-n, Conquer 1-n, Discover 1-n, Explore1-n); and the Alpha(x).txt order. I imagine this could be a PIA, so don't bother unless you feel inspired.
- when I run the spreadsheet I get a message that says that a document by that name is already open ... cannot open two docs blah blah. Perhaps it is due to my old version of excel (form office 97) or perhaps it is something interesting I am blowing off when I click OK (like the variables, etc. I couldn't find) or some cosmetic thing you could easily correct.

On the whole, it looks like it could be a very useful tool - very good work.

Edit, I see now that the basic order of the techs is not exactly that of the Tech Tree in Alpha(x).txt, but what I suppose is the order of joker selection - earliest Green first, then rest of greens; then Discover from earliest to latest; etc. I see also those 'Only-a-mother-could-love-them' horrible expressions in the preqs_ok columns and I suppose that is where the bulk of the action occurs, a fine example of 'self documenting' code if I ever saw one, although truth be told it looks decipherable enough given a couple of aspirins. I'd still rather ask you how the details work than figure them our for myself, given a choice and god forbid having to debug it - counting parens is ever so much fun, even with the would be helpful color coding.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by johndmuller
As I understand the theory to date, it is a variaation of the basic equation published by Minute Mirage - I'm quoting the basic version below so we can look at it on this page of the thread and to be sure we are talking about the same thing.



If I understood the variation correctly, once the faction trades a tech for the first time (or if the game had been originally set up by the Scenario Editor and the CMN had inserted techs in there) then the "b" term is zero. (I think I got that straight, if I got it backwards, perhaps Kody or MM will point that out.)

Yes, that is the current theory.

Originally posted by johndmuller
There is still a problem with the University needing an additional +1 adjustment.

Is this something you have observed yourself or do you mean my post concerning the DG? If you mean the latter than I must note that it has been the first time I have seen this effect, and IIRC I actually had to make a -1 adjustment.

Originally posted by johndmuller

As I understand it, the spreadsheet is supposed to work for the initial choices as well; if so, ther may be a problem, at least with the Pirates, having 2 starting techs, slot 5, for which the spreadsheet offers CentEcol. ProgenPsych, Biogen, InfoNets, and AppPhysics, withholding IndBase and SocPsych, whereas the actual initial offering (assuming my test notes are accurate, and I am reasonably confident of that) is instead all 7 possible techs in an SP or "New Game" generated PBEM. No combination of slot numbers or initial tech settings seemed to make it show all 7. I know you'all mentioned the initial offerings earlier in the thread, but I thought that you said that you had that covered; that does not seem to be the case here, maybe I misunderstood something, or maybe there is a problem.

With the "Traded" toggle on, it offers CentEcol. ProgenPsych, Biogen, IndBase, SocPsych, and AppPhysics, withholding InfoNets, which is correct for a Scenario Generated version. I doubt that it matters, but if you're interested anyway, the other factions were set up to mimic the ACDG cast and turn order in all cases and the Scenario Generated version was either the ACDG itself or a similar verion I created adding the techs in manually via the ScenEd.


What the spreadsheet currently does is only to check how many techs have been researched and if no techs or only 1 tech have been researched, then all the choices are available. I could of course change it so that it is dependant on the number of starting techs so that all the choices are available when only the starting techs have been researched. I actually meant to do this, but left it for later because I experienced some discrepancies when the number of starting techs was 2 or larger. That is, I didn't always get all the choices even though it was my first tech selection.

Having said that, I wonder if I encountered the problems only when I was testing the University? I think it's possible that with the Uni the choosing of the free tech is considered as the first selection.

In addition to this is the problem HongHu pointed out: not all the choices were available even though it was the initial selection. I think more research is needed in this regard, especially checking the differences between scenario started and normal games.

Would you like me to add a new "Initial choice: Yes/No" switch until we've figured this out? When we do get this sorted out I can incorporate the switch into the formulas but until then this would be an easier choice.

Originally posted by johndmuller
I couldn't see in the macros where the formula was applied or how the "traded" button changed it or where the program stored which techs were discovered or its other variables, but they are obviously in there somewhere.

All the information is basically on the second sheet of the workbook, titled "Techs". More precisely, the formulas on column N ("preqs ok?") check whether both the prerequisites of the tech on that row have been researched, and returns a boolean value (TRUE/FALSE). The formulas on column O ("other ok?") deal with the issues we have been researching so I might give them a brief explanation. Here's what's in cell O2:

={IF(MATCH(TRUE();$N$2:$N$90;0)=ROW(B2)-1;TRUE();IF(SUM(IF(NOT(EXACT(Main!$A$3:$A$100;""));1;0))>1;NOT(MOD(SUM(IF(NOT(EXACT(Main!$A$3:$A$100;""));1;0))+Techs!C2+Main!$H$21-IF(EXACT(Main!$H$22;"No");Main!$H$20;0);3)=0);TRUE()))}

The logical test in the first IF-clause ( "MATCH(TRUE();$N$2:$N$90;0)=ROW(B2)-1" ) checks whether the tech in the current row is the joker tech. The way this is done is checking where the first TRUE value is on the N-column and checking if that value happens to be on the same row. The reason this works is that the Techs on the "Techs" sheet have been sorted first by their type (Explore, Dicover, Build, Conquer) and then by their line number in alphax.txt. This is incidentally the same order in which the techs appear for choocing in SMAX, which has two consequences:

1) The first tech (in the top left corner) in the "Choose new technology to research"- screen in SMAX is always the joker tech.

2) The tech order in my "Available choices" list is the same as in SMAX, which is quite handy.

Anyway, if the tech is indeed the joker tech then TRUE is returned, otherwise we have to check for the other condition. Next comes:

IF(SUM(IF(NOT(EXACT(Main!$A$3:$A$100;""));1;0))>1

This checks how many techs have already been researched, and if the number is not greater then one, then TRUE is returned. This is the "Initial choice" clause which needs to be changed.

Finally:

NOT(MOD(SUM(IF(NOT(EXACT(Main!$A$3:$A$100;""));1;0))+Techs!C2+Main!$H$21-IF(EXACT(Main!$H$22;"No");Main!$H$20;0);3)=0)

Here we calculate the number of techs researched:
SUM(IF(NOT(EXACT(Main!$A$3:$A$100;""));1;0))

Add the line number in alphax.txt to it:

+Techs!C2

Add the slot number to it:

+Main!$H$21

And subtract the number of starting techs, depending on whether techs have been traded or not:

-IF(EXACT(Main!$H$22;"No");Main!$H$20;0)

From all this we take the modulo 3 and see whether it is equal to 0 or not.

Worth noting are also the braces ( {} ) around the whole formula, which means that it's an array formula. If the formula is edited, you have to remember to press Ctrl+Shift+Enter to add the braces.

Originally posted by johndmuller
If I might suggest an improvement or 2:
- I would find it helpful if the techs that were otherwise available but for the floating mod 3 withholding were also listed, differentiated somehow, like with a different color scheme or in a separate table

I actually had all the "possibly available" techs in another list next to the "Available choices" when I was testing my formulas so it will be easy to add. In fact, I could also add the mod 3 numbers next to the techs.

Originally posted by johndmuller
- a "Reset" button to clear the tech list would also be nice


I was actually thinking of doing this and it shouldn't be too hard.

Originally posted by johndmuller

- if it were possible to present the Researched Technologies column in a different sequence from the current one (which appears to be in Alpha(x).txt order), that could be helpful too. Ideally, there would be several alternatives, including: the order they were researched; alphabetically; a Tech Tree form (like Build 1-n, Conquer 1-n, Discover 1-n, Explore1-n); and the Alpha(x).txt order. I imagine this could be a PIA, so don't bother unless you feel inspired.


The current order is the same as in the listing in the F2 screen in SMAX. That is, the technologies are first sorted by their Level, then by their Type and then by their order in alphax.txt.

I think I can add the different sorting options if I can figure how to add an IF-statement to a macro. Surely that can't be too hard (*knocks on wood*). In fact, if I can figure that out, I think I could also add a button that removes the last addition from the Technology list. This would be useful since you can't undo the effects of a macro.

Could you clarify the Tech tree form a bit? Should I first sort the techs by Type, then by Level and then alphabetically?

Originally posted by johndmuller
- when I run the spreadsheet I get a message that says that a document by that name is already open ... cannot open two docs blah blah. Perhaps it is due to my old version of excel (form office 97) or perhaps it is something interesting I am blowing off when I click OK (like the variables, etc. I couldn't find) or some cosmetic thing you could easily correct.

I don't really know what could be causing this since I don't get the message. Weird.

Originally posted by johndmuller

On the whole, it looks like it could be a very useful tool - very good work.

Thanks, let's hope I can make it better still.

[johndmuller]

MM, We had a bit of a cross-post (see the trailing edit to my last post), but I'll try to tie up whatever loose ends there might be, although given that you said that you weren't really trying to emulate the SP/AutoGenreatedPNEM initial tech selections, there is probably no substantive problem on the table from my side.

I take it that a ScenarioEditor generated game (with the manual tech insertion) is equivalent to an Autogenerated game where a trade has taken place - is that the official theory? In that case, some mention of Scenarios might be a good idea in the context of that toggle.

As to my mention of the University adjuustment, I was just feeding that back from yours or Kody's post earlier, that was not something I had personally experienced - my business with the Pirates was covered by your initial selection disclaimer. As near I can tell, the ACDG Pirates selections, including the initial selection, are what is shown in the spreadsheet if the trade toggle is on from the beginning.

When it comes to the initial selections, I can't say I know what the "correct" selection should be - whether the version generated in SP games (I'm going to stop mentioning autogenerated PBEMs, as most of the PBEMs seem to be manually generated anyway) where I take it that all the techs are available (I couldn't personally testify to that, but I have no problem believing it either) - or the version of the initial selection you get with a manually created PBEM where the tech selection is limited according to the post-trade logic. There also seems to be another version possible, in the spreadsheet at least, where the selection is limited by the pre-trade logic - which, in the case of the Pirates at least, does not correspond to any actual initial selection AFAIK; is this the part you are still working on? Anyway, that aside, I don't know what a supposed "correct" initial selection would be, so I guess that either the Complete, or the Scenario Generated PBEM limited one should be supported (if there is another possible set of starting choices, then that too, I suppose). Basically, the idea would be to have the spreadsheet start out showing the initial view as the player would see it, with maybe a toggle or two to adjust between SP and PBEM (possibly just the current 'trade' toggle. I imagine you already had something like this in mind and are just waiting to make sure that the rest of the logic is OK before making those formulae even more complicated.

Having discovered that it was 'safe' to just delete the Researched Techs from their column, the reset button became less pressing, but still nice. Along the same lines, when a tech is removed from that column, say to see what the effect of researching something else would be, if the sheet were recalculated then, it would probably clean up the column to get rid of the disquieting gap in the column - again, nice, but not necessary as it turns out. You seem to be already thinking along those lines with you thoughts on another button to remove the last addition - they would each make it more user friendly, as one might otherwise be afraid to mess with the cells and/or not be particularly adept at excel.

I meanwhile noticed that the spreadsheets order was not exactly the Tech Tree order, but was actuallly the 'joker' order - the fact that it is the order used by the program displays is an indication that the whole joker theory is correct. This is indeed a very uiseful ordering.

The other order I was talking about was indeed the categories (types) and levels (rows on the poster) as you guessed. At the time, I was thinking it more complicated than it actually is (I was thinking that each one had a unique index, but acually they repeat the same identifier (E1, B2, ... whatever) if there are more than one of a particular type on the same level. In any case, you seem to have already suplemented the Tech Tree data with the necessary info, so that should be easy.

I would be happy to see the 'might-have-been' techs displayed somehow, as I think that is useful practical info - showing as it does, what would become available if an optional trade is made before the current tech is researched. By the same token, some way of easily seeing which set of currently offered techs are the next to be withheld would also be helpful - just having the mod 3 groupings identified would probably be enough, although there may be more interesting ways to display the distinctions between the 3 groups and the joker.

A fact that is becomming clear if we are indeed on the right track, is that the joker is not necessarily going to be around if the prereqs for an earlier joker tech become available - for example Doc:AP could replace Ethical Calc if you traded for an intermediate tech or two, so thinking of the joker as being there until you decide to research it is not necessarily true.

I am getting convinced that this is going to be right on; It doesn't look like there are any more hidden zingers to be tripped over. Where exactly are the problem areas anyway. I'm not sure I understand the University problem; I gather it revolves around the extra tech, but what exactly is it? Is the problem that it only offers a subset of the possible techs for tech #3 when we want it to offer all of them? If so, perhaps it needs its own special button or toggle. Or is it something to do with the exact subsets offered, where there are seemingly only a few possibilities, like it is counting or not counting the extra tech and it either triggers the trade logic or it doesn't; if we figured out what is was doing that we didn't like, if it was strictly University driven, then that same (regretably tacky, but maybe necessary) toggle could be a part of the solution. One approach to any uniqueness issues like that would be to just to allow/require the user identify the faction and have the program set up the initial conditions and any special flags that might apply. The user could still add or remove techs or change toggles, just that it wouldn't be necessary to know all the wrinkles to be able to use it.

[jtsisyoda]

I programmed computers for 4 years, an experience which tells me nothing stops the developers from putting dozens of little conditions in there to slightly randomize it or change the formula altogether in an arbitrary situation. Normal programming practice is to keep it simple, so the mechanisms (and problems) are easily traced from the results. But if your objective is to complicate and appear random, that's completely different.

Once you guys confirmed that the formula is complicated and can even change depending on events, all bets are off as to just how complex it will finally be. These are things that would take extremely exhaustive testing to reverse-engineer. The game does not lend itself to quick tests of all conditions.

I don't mean to be a party pooper. I just think there are areas of the game that can benefit more from all that brainpower.

We could get philosophical here and say this formula refining is a metaphor for science. Newton thought he had gravity figured out, but people came along later with more information that changed the formula. The old formula works in certain situations, but that doesn't make it "correct". Someday Einstein will likewise be corrected/refined.

This complexity springs from fundamentally simple rules (conventional wisdom AFAIK). The code of SMAX is not fundamentally simple. It's as complicated as the developers wanted it to be. I'll stop short of saying SMAX will one day become sentient and start discussing its secrets with you ("I display techs i like"), but the possible number of outcomes of SMAX games are astronomical. That's nice, but then consider that the complexity itself can feedback into the rules, and from here we should all read "Goedel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter-- sentience is the logical extreme of feedback loops.

***

This confirms my theory that I'm most bizarre when I have a fever... days like today.

[Minute Mirage]

Well, I've finally made a new version of the spread sheet. I was somewhat busy with my studies, which is why this took a lot longer than expected. Here's what's changed:

Added "All choices"- list, which lists all the techs the prerequisites of which have been researched.

Added "Remainder"- list next to the "All choices"- techs. There are three possible values here -- 0, 1 and 2. If the value is 0, the tech is not displayed in the "Available choices"- list, unless it is the first tech in the "All choices"- list (the joker tech).

Added "Remove Latest Addition"- and "Remove All"- buttons.

Changed "Add"- button to "Add/del" so that the same button can be used to both adding and deleting technologies from the "Researched Technologies"- list, depending on whether the desired technology is already in the list or not.

Added a "Sort"- button and included four sorting options: Alphabetical, Order of research, SMAX order and Tech tree order. The "Researched Technologies"- list is automatically sorted according to the selected sorting option whenever technologies are added or removed.

Added the "Initial selection"- switch, which makes all the choices available if set to "Yes".

Technologies can no longer be entered manually, so I made the sheet protected. There's no password, so the sheet can be unprotected if need be.


Any comments are welcome.

Originally posted by johndmuller
I'm not sure I understand the University problem; I gather it revolves around the extra tech, but what exactly is it? Is the problem that it only offers a subset of the possible techs for tech #3 when we want it to offer all of them? If so, perhaps it needs its own special button or toggle. Or is it something to do with the exact subsets offered, where there are seemingly only a few possibilities, like it is counting or not counting the extra tech and it either triggers the trade logic or it doesn't; if we figured out what is was doing that we didn't like, if it was strictly University driven, then that same (regretably tacky, but maybe necessary) toggle could be a part of the solution.

The problem is that even though Uni's slot position is two, the tech choices are correct if I select three as the slot number. This means that somehow the remainders are off by one.

EDIT: Removed the file, there's a newer version available later in the thread.

[Kody]

Since nobody else is commenting, I'll just say I've downloaded your new spreadsheet and I am using it.

It's very good, and I like the addition of the "remove last", and the addition of "All choices".

[Minute Mirage]

Well, I don't think we've got the formula wholly figured out yet. Like I said, I'm having problems with the University's choices in the ACDG and now I've also got problems in the 'Blind Leaders' PBEM game where johndmuller is the CMN.

The problem in both the games is that even though my faction is in slot #2, I get the choices I should get if the slot was #1. What makes the whole thing more weird, is that I've tried replicating the Blind Leaders game technology- wise, and I've gotten the choices I should get according to theory, but not the choices I got in the actual game. Therefore, there must still be a hidden rule somewhere. Maybe it's related to how the CMN started the game, or how the turns are passed to different players.

Has anyone else experienced similar problems in PBEM (HongHu seemed to have some troubles)?

[johndmuller]

I don't know if it will help you or not, but as best as I recall, the way I started out the University in the Blind Leaders game was to assign Centaur Ecology (adding the tech in the Scenario Editor to an otherwise blank slate) as the initial tech and to select Infomation Networks during the 1st turn, which I played in the Scenario Editor while assigning passwords and making sure that the Chairman did certain things with his first turn. (If I assigned InfoNets, as you might have expected me to have done, the game didn't offer CentEcology in the next turn, so I had to do it the other way.)

I still think this is a really great package and I haven't personally noticed any problems to date, but neither have I tried checking it too closely against existing games, in part because some of them are SMAC, with its slightly different tech tree (a SMAC or SMAX option would be another useful enhancement btw), but mostly because I haven't had the occasion to do any serious tech planning/worrying in those games yet.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by johndmuller
I don't know if it will help you or not, but as best as I recall, the way I started out the University in the Blind Leaders game was to assign Centaur Ecology (adding the tech in the Scenario Editor to an otherwise blank slate) as the initial tech and to select Infomation Networks during the 1st turn, which I played in the Scenario Editor while assigning passwords and making sure that the Chairman did certain things with his first turn. (If I assigned InfoNets, as you might have expected me to have done, the game didn't offer CentEcology in the next turn, so I had to do it the other way.)

Do you remember how exactly did you assign the techs? Did you use Ctrl+F2 or Shift+F2? If you used Shift+F2, how did you set the technology to be researched to none? Also, since I'm not very experienced with the scenario editor, how exactly do you play a turn there?

Originally posted by johndmuller
I still think this is a really great package and I haven't personally noticed any problems to date, but neither have I tried checking it too closely against existing games, in part because some of them are SMAC, with its slightly different tech tree (a SMAC or SMAX option would be another useful enhancement btw), but mostly because I haven't had the occasion to do any serious tech planning/worrying in those games yet.

Adding the SMAC tech tree is a good idea and it should be quite easy since the necessary information is in alpha.txt.

[johndmuller]

Originally posted by Minute Mirage
Do you remember how exactly did you assign the techs? Did you use Ctrl+F2 or Shift+F2? If you used Shift+F2, how did you set the technology to be researched to none? Also, since I'm not very experienced with the scenario editor, how exactly do you play a turn there? . . .
I think I used the (Scenario) Menu to add the techs (there's a selection that opens the Technology sub-window); I'm not familiar off-hand with the keyboard variations or what the difference might be. I didn't consciously set the tech-to-be-researched to "None", perhaps it 'researched' your second tech during the turn I played getting Yang ready and so when your first turn came about it was ready for another selection. I don't remember exactly how I set up the Uni - I think I was just happy that the number of techs came out right (and with the right 2) and that it looked more or less like an actual Uni startup, asking for the other tech - sometimes I end up with 1 or 3 techs with the Uni. I don't set up so many scenarios that I have the Uni setup down pat, plus I had the problem of not getting offered CentEcol as the extra tech - the workaround for that used up whatever academic interest in the Uni setup there might have been.

To play the turn 'within the Scneario Editor', the sequence was more or less like this (much of the necessary info is in Googlies guide (http://www.civgaming.net/smac/acad_scened.shtml):
Preliminaries:
--Start up a new game with the desired cast of SMAX factions, play it briefly and save it (this primarily creates the appropriate faction list in the AlphaCentauri.ini file - I think you could just do this manually, but this way is just as easy and you don't have to worry about spelling mistakes).
--Create a map and figure out where each of the factions will be located, what they should have in the way of units, etc.
Basic Scenario setup:
--Start a new scenario and load in the map. Without 'activating' the Scenario Editor, do the initial setup things like the techs, energy,year, personalities, etc and put in all the units at the locations you liked from before (it's a good idea to save the scenario occasionally - especially if you are placing a lot of units - as it sometimes crashes; sometimes I get effed up scenarios that leave the map partly visible or worse, so I use a lot of different filenames in case my last one(s) is/are bad).
Playing a turn or two:
--Using the Scenario menu (or some keystroke if there is one), select the item (something like) "Set Player / Change Faction"; select the sub-item (something like) "Play All Factions".
--Hit Ctrl-K (or use menu) to 'activate' the Scenario Editor; you will now have a seemingly live game (hopefully with the first faction in control. You can now play turns for each faction, doing whatever things you might want to do - like found bases (to make sure the AI puts them where you want), give orders to bases and individual units (some of this may be futile if the AI overrules you right away as soon as you go away). Play through to some reasonable stoppinig point (like to the the beginning (or end maybe) of a round of turns) - I don't know it matters or not where you stop playing, but I wouldn't be surprised if the resulting game will start from wherever you leave off - or not.
--'DeActivate' the Scenario Editor (I think this is very important) and save the Scenario - it should be good to go. It may be possible to further edit the scenario details here, but I can't say for sure; by this time, I'm usually happy enough if it works OK.

[vitamin j]

you guys are way too hard-core for me... :)

[Straybow]

In SP I always play blind research. Otherwise it is too easy.

[gwillybj]

HongHu: I have one question. Now everybody could edit alpha.txt, so if in a case a tech you desired is not available to you, wouldn't it be easy to solve if you simply edit the txt file and change the order of the techs? That would be a cheat though. Just wondering if this means that.
Minute Mirage: I suppose so, assuming that changing the order doesn't break anything. It would indeed be a cheat, though.
The order of the techs in alpha.txt is extremely important. The "line numbers" (which begin with zero) are keyed to every other part of the game that is keyed back to a tech's "line number" - some of which is hard-coded. If the order is changed, it will break many, many things.

[Minute Mirage]

Here's the 1.03 version of the file. I included the SMAC tech tree like johndmuller recommended. You can select which version (SMAX or SMAC) you want to use by selecting the approriate worksheet. If there are any bugs or such, please let me know.

EDIT: File removed, newer version available later in the thread.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by johndmuller

I think I used the (Scenario) Menu to add the techs (there's a selection that opens the Technology sub-window); I'm not familiar off-hand with the keyboard variations or what the difference might be. <snip>

I tried some of the things you mentioned, and I still got a different set of techs for my choice than in the actual game. Like jtsisyoda said, there are a lot of possible variables that can affect the choices, and finding them can be really hard.

[jtsisyoda]

You mean my feverish tirade was not just a bunch of malarkey? You made my day. :D

[johndmuller]

I checked out the program against a SMAC PBEM (presumably scenario generated) for which (I thought) I had very good research-offering notes about tech offerings. As it turned out, I had been rather remiss about entering all the trades and gifts, but I did have much of the missing info in my regular notes on the game. After correcting my research-offering notes for the missing additional tech acquisitions I was able to replicate with the program all but one of the offerings I had noted and I believe that I must have incorrectly captured the offerings (as the ones I had listed were inconsistent with the mod3 principle). I did have to make some assumptions to deal with contradictory information during my reconstruction of the missing data from the other file, but I would consider this effort a validation :b: of this spreadsheet, at least for this game (I was the Spaartans, BTW). Unfortunately, if this game is typical of my accuracy and completeness at taking notes, I will not be able to definitively verify or disprove the program without a lot more work going back into save-game files to check my notes (and I don't think I am going to do very much of that).

Speaking of the work, it seemed that I was too often having to select techs in the drop-down list (which is considerably more a PIA than clicking the 'research' button) to add techs that were 'temporarily' unavailable due to the Mod3 rule. This was because there was quite a lot of trading going on in this game and also because in practice it is quite likely that trading partners will be working on the same set of techs, more or less, and 1/3 of them might be unavailable. So, it would be nice if there were an 'easy' way to select the unavailable techs, like an 'acquire' button for them in the rightmost column. Of course, if I was saving this spreadsheet and adding the techs as a game progressed, I wouldn't really mind the extra work selecting the tech from the drop down list, but for doing a lot of entries at one setting, it would be helpful to have a single button selection process for the 'unavailable' techs.

In this game (a partnership game), the CMN had given me my partner's starting tech as well as my own - this apparently translated into a 'trade' as far as the spreadsheet was concerned - as I was required to set it up that way to get the correect offerings at the beginning.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by johndmuller

Speaking of the work, it seemed that I was too often having to select techs in the drop-down list (which is considerably more a PIA than clicking the 'research' button) to add techs that were 'temporarily' unavailable due to the Mod3 rule. This was because there was quite a lot of trading going on in this game and also because in practice it is quite likely that trading partners will be working on the same set of techs, more or less, and 1/3 of them might be unavailable. So, it would be nice if there were an 'easy' way to select the unavailable techs, like an 'acquire' button for them in the rightmost column. Of course, if I was saving this spreadsheet and adding the techs as a game progressed, I wouldn't really mind the extra work selecting the tech from the drop down list, but for doing a lot of entries at one setting, it would be helpful to have a single button selection process for the 'unavailable' techs.



One solution to that would be to set the "Initial selection"- switch to "Yes", which makes all the techs to become available. Of course, if you're constantly checking whether the choices are correct, you would have to set it to "No" to be able to do that. So I guess an "acquire" button could be added.

Originally posted by johndmuller
In this game (a partnership game), the CMN had given me my partner's starting tech as well as my own - this apparently translated into a 'trade' as far as the spreadsheet was concerned - as I was required to set it up that way to get the correect offerings at the beginning.

My understanding is that using Ctrl+F2 to give techs to a faction in the scenario editor will count as a trade. Apparently most CMNs (including you) do it this way.

[johndmuller]

The 'initial tech' setting would have saved me a lot of trouble if I had thought to use it (I guess it just enables all the possible techs without doing anything else), particularly if I wasn't interested in seeing whether or not I could research the particular techs at that particular time (like when I was entering a string of 3 or 4 trades and didn't need to check the offerings against my records from the game). On a frequent basis though, such as switching back and forth between the initial and regular settings, the yes/no dropdowns are still considerably more cumbersome to operate (at least with my mouse) than just a single button click button. The part that seems to add the most effort is having to first click on the cells to reveal the dropdown arrow, then moving to click the arrow, then back to select the option; if the drowdown arrow were always there, it might not be so bad (although selecting a tech way down the list is also time consuming).

I know this seems kind of petty and whiney, but I'm just trying to help fine-tune this potentially very useful product.

I guess I'll have to play the Blind Leaders game again to see what the techs are doing compared to the spreadsheet's program. I did notice something that struck me as strange in the BL tech offerings (but I don't want to telll you what it was since you're playing the game - you know, if you knew that everyone else got offered Industrial Auto on the first round, you might be really upset ;) ), but I thought it was just a coincidence, perhaps having to do with the particular slots and starting techs that went with each faction (I still haven't completely let go of the possibility that different factions get different offerings sometimes, possibly related to their faction.txt file's tech preferences). As best as I recall, I didn't do any 'cute' things with the techs (except for Yang, and even with him no really radical stuff like giving him AdvSpaceflight so I could give him hundreds of missiles, and then removing it) so I wouldn't think there were any side effects from that sort of thing. Except for the University, where I had to supply the techs backwards, I just doled out the techs, with no false starts, with no mistakes that I had to undo or any other anomalies that I can remember.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by johndmuller
The 'initial tech' setting would have saved me a lot of trouble if I had thought to use it (I guess it just enables all the possible techs without doing anything else), particularly if I wasn't interested in seeing whether or not I could research the particular techs at that particular time (like when I was entering a string of 3 or 4 trades and didn't need to check the offerings against my records from the game). On a frequent basis though, such as switching back and forth between the initial and regular settings, the yes/no dropdowns are still considerably more cumbersome to operate (at least with my mouse) than just a single button click button. The part that seems to add the most effort is having to first click on the cells to reveal the dropdown arrow, then moving to click the arrow, then back to select the option; if the drowdown arrow were always there, it might not be so bad (although selecting a tech way down the list is also time consuming).

I know this seems kind of petty and whiney, but I'm just trying to help fine-tune this potentially very useful product.

I do agree that selecting a tech from the drop-down box is time-consuming. I added the "Acquire" buttons like you requested.

Originally posted by johndmuller
I guess I'll have to play the Blind Leaders game again to see what the techs are doing compared to the program.
If you want to, I can send you some of my save files where I got the unexpected choices.

Originally posted by johndmuller
if you knew that everyone else got offered Industrial Auto on the first round, you might be really upset ;)

Hey! :mad:

EDIT: File removed, newer version available later in the thread.

[Minute Mirage]

Here's version 1.05 of the spreadsheet. There are no big changes, but I removed the "Initial selection" switch (which I think was useless) and corrected a few mistakes.

EDIT: File removed, newer version available later in the thread.

[Net Warrior]

v1.06 seems to be working very well for SMAC as far as I can tell. A nice addition to my bag of tricks. Thanks.
Net Warrior

[johndmuller]

MM,
I'm a little puzzled as to what the mod3 column is supposed to show - I would have thought that some tag for the "mod3 group" that the tech belonged to, like group 0, 1 or 2, for the actual mod3 value of the tech (it is just the sequence # of the tech mod3'd, right?, and so would stay the same), but as the numbers in that column seem to change each time a tech is added of subtracted (although the groupings stay the same), it must be something else. Perhaps if I knew the system it would make sense to me, but so far it is confusing. I am referring to your latest version a couple of posts above (1.06, that is; I don't seem to have downloaded - 1.05 if it is/was up there).

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by johndmuller
MM,
I'm a little puzzled as to what the mod3 column is supposed to show - I would have thought that some tag for the "mod3 group" that the tech belonged to, like group 0, 1 or 2, for the actual mod3 value of the tech (it is just the sequence # of the tech mod3'd, right?, and so would stay the same), but as the numbers in that column seem to change each time a tech is added of subtracted (although the groupings stay the same), it must be something else. Perhaps if I knew the system it would make sense to me, but so far it is confusing. I am referring to your latest version a couple of posts above (1.06, that is; I don't seem to have downloaded - 1.05 if it is/was up there).

The "mod 2" is the current remainder of the techs, that is, the ones that are currently not available as choices have 0 in the column. The value increases by one for every added tech (more precicely, it goes from 0 to 1, 1 to 2 and 2 to 0). This means that you can tell which techs are going not to be available next turn by checking which techs have 2 in the column (with the exception of the joker tech).

[johndmuller]

Thanks for explaining that; I suppose it would have been obvious if I didn't have a preconception as to what was going to be in there. The sequence of disappearance is indeed useful information; I'm glad I didn't suggest that improvement at the same time asking you what was going on in that column :hmmm: . If it isn't already in there somewhere, you might consider adding some indication of how that works as a help item in any future version you might make.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by johndmuller
If it isn't already in there somewhere, you might consider adding some indication of how that works as a help item in any future version you might make.

Yes, I guess I should do that. I can see how a simple "Mod 3" could be considered not informative enough. ;)

[johndmuller]

I found a couple of more things that seem to be a little more significant.

I thought that saving the spreadsheet would let me return to it later so that if I save the version that had a particular PBEM's techs already in it, it would let me pick up where I left off when the next tech choice came around without having to enter in all the techs again; but there seemed to be some problems with that - perhaps there is some initialization routine or something, but it loses some stuff, for example, the ability to unload the last tech, but not just that.

Regarding undoing techs, there seemed to be several problems with that too. Particularly if it were a previously saved file, but IIRC, some of this stuff was problematic in a new file too - the various remove buttons do not always work properly, all three kinds, the "all", the "most recent" and the "specified". It seemed to be losing track of what &/or how many entries were in there. In addition, it hassled me about clearing the tech cells manually too, as they seemed to be protected or locked or something.

Just so it doesn't get lost in the negative stuff, I still think that this is a very fine and useful spredsheet :b: .

[Kody]

Don't work him too hard.

hehe

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by johndmuller
I found a couple of more things that seem to be a little more significant.

I thought that saving the spreadsheet would let me return to it later so that if I save the version that had a particular PBEM's techs already in it, it would let me pick up where I left off when the next tech choice came around without having to enter in all the techs again; but there seemed to be some problems with that - perhaps there is some initialization routine or something, but it loses some stuff, for example, the ability to unload the last tech, but not just that.

Regarding undoing techs, there seemed to be several problems with that too. Particularly if it were a previously saved file, but IIRC, some of this stuff was problematic in a new file too - the various remove buttons do not always work properly, all three kinds, the "all", the "most recent" and the "specified". It seemed to be losing track of what &/or how many entries were in there. In addition, it hassled me about clearing the tech cells manually too, as they seemed to be protected or locked or something.

Just so it doesn't get lost in the negative stuff, I still think that this is a very fine and useful spredsheet :b: .

That's probably got something to do with how Excel handles the variables in the macro code when it's closed. I suppose it resets the variables, so I'll have to store them in a cell somewhere in the actual spreadsheet. I'll look into it during the weekend.

[Minute Mirage]

OK, I didn't wait until the weekend after all. I hope the problem johndmuller mentioned is fixed now. I also added explanations for the columns (they're in the comment in cell A2), and a new sorting order "Reverse order of research" that has the newest technology on top.

Once again, comments and suggestions for improvement are welcome.

[MrWhereItsAt]

What is this 'mod 3' stuff? It's nothing to do with 'mod' in the mathematical sense, is it? Since all values are positive integers anyway that would not make any difference.

[Minute Mirage]

It's in the mathematical sense that I use the mod (modulo) 3, which means dividing the number by three and taking the remainder. This essentially separates the integers and thus the techs in the game into three groups, depending on whether the remainder is 0, 1 or 2. Some simple examples:

5 mod 3 = 2
9 mod 3 = 0
25 mod 3 = 1.

[timotheus4]

Originally posted by Jac de Molay
It is kind of weird. I just started to play with directed tech, and noticed how quickly it throws up some pretty serious mid-game techs, but it takes a while to get the prereqs for Env. Economics, which is my personal "holy grail"

Oyah.

[Maniac]

I just wanted to say thanks to Minute Mirage for his impressive work. :):b:

[Net Warrior]

I was just singing the praises of v1.07 to some folks here so I thought I'd give the thread a bump.

bump....

[Snowflake]

Ok I was using the last version to look at beeline to IA for Gaians (SMAX). I set slot number to be 1. Is it correct? It didn't give me IN as first available tech and I seem to remember you'd get both IN and IB as first available choice.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by HongHu
Ok I was using the last version to look at beeline to IA for Gaians (SMAX). I set slot number to be 1. Is it correct? It didn't give me IN as first available tech and I seem to remember you'd get both IN and IB as first available choice.

The slot number depends on that particular game, so I don't know if it's correct. To be more precise, the slot numbered is determined from the order of the seven factions you choose when starting the game.

IIRC, the chart doesn't list all the techs as available when you choose your first tech. However, usually it's the case that all techs are available for choosing when you choose your first tech. There are some exceptions to this, especially if you're playing a MP game created by a CMN.

So basically, the first tech choise can very well be in different in the game than it is in the chart. It should also be noted that the slot number seems to differ in some CMN started MP games, so the best way to use the chart is to select a slot number that gives you to the same choices that you see in the game when you are making your second tech choice.

[Kody]

Honghu,

I think you need to add ecology then it'll show the correct tech availability

Reply to below:

No clue anymore.

[Snowflake]

Yes I did add Centuri Ecology as the pregiven tech I think. :hmmm:

[Hercules]

Yeah I think a bit of twiddling is needed at the outset.

[Enigma_Nova]

Traded techs Y/N ?

[Snowflake]

Not traded because I was looking at first available tech. You know, at turn one.

[Dis]

I still don't do this, I know I should beeline for IA.

But I'm silly. I still always go for secrets of the human brain first. Although that depends on which faction I am. If I'm playing against the University I usually don't even try. I have no chance.

[johndmuller]

Originally posted by HongHu
Not traded because I was looking at first available tech. You know, at turn one.
If you're talking about a PBEM, at least one generated by the Scenario Editor, I think the traded-techs thing needs to be set to 'Yes' (even) at the beginning; apparently the action of a CMN assigning the starting techs is equivalent to trading in the game's lights. I think the spreadsheet just cycles the tech counter once or twice anyway, like modifying the slot number.

Although in my experience the spreadsheet generally works just fine, I think that sometimes, like when using the University, for example, it might be necessary to lie about some of the settings to get the spreadsheet to work right; it's just a matter of getting it to focus once on the right group of techs to withhold when you first start using it for a particular game, the rest of if (namely the joker tech and all the misc mechanics like the prereq's and all the subsequent tech choices) seems to be OK without the need to jigger at all once it has been tuned in. If there seems to be trouble, just mess with the slot number til the techs withheld match what is actually the case in the game in question, then everything will be alright after that.

[GeoModder]

Frankly, I don't understand what you're talking about.

A game/scenario creator giving techs to a faction in the scenario editor is considered as traded techs between factions?
Or are you saying that the tech <i>cost</i> will increase more then it should by giving techs pré-game to the factions?

Is this solved if you only give starting or free choice techs to factions then?

[Enigma_Nova]

Is it CTRL-F2 or SHIFT-F2?
Do you force a tech breakthrough or assign the techs via the big tech list?
Or, like me, do you generate a game, open the scenario editor, clear the map and take it from there?

There will be a different mod shift on each one.

[Snowflake]

I don't think we are talking about tech cost here Geo. Only tech availability.

[smacksim]

Originally posted by gwillybj

{referring to HongHu's and Minute Mirage's question/answer about twiddling the alpha.txt during an MP game}

The order of the techs in alpha.txt is extremely important. The "line numbers" (which begin with zero) are keyed to every other part of the game that is keyed back to a tech's "line number" - some of which is hard-coded. If the order is changed, it will break many, many things.

Three things.

One, if you know what you are doing you will break nothing. This is a large part of mod making. The text isn't hard to understand. You must follow the rules though. IE, techs need prerequisites that exist. Spelling / syntax must be accurate. Other than that, it's a fun and powerful way to change the game. Just be sure you keep a backup and use it for MP games that you start.

Two, changes made to the alpha(x).txt are 'picked up' by the scenario editor in scenario games and likewise in regular MP games. Thus, whoever creates the game determines these things for the whole game. So don't start a game with a tweaked alpha.txt and then expect to be able to change it back mid-game.

Three, I'm not 100% positive about number 2 :dizzy: .However, I can say I've played a few modded games and scenarios in which the changes (made by the creator) took effect irregardless of anything I did or didn't do with my local copy of the text. I'd need to do more thorough testing to see if this is always true. If it is, as I suspect, then MP games are nicely vaulted against this sort of tampering or accidental mis-match of texts.

-Smack

[Hydro]

B-lines and directed research are for whimps!:)

[Snowflake]

Perhaps ACDGIV could be blind research. ;)

[Illuminatus]

Indeed.

[johndmuller]

Originally posted by smacksim
. . . . Two, changes made to the alpha(x).txt are 'picked up' by the scenario editor in scenario games and likewise in regular MP games. Thus, whoever creates the game determines these things for the whole game. So don't start a game with a tweaked alpha.txt and then expect to be able to change it back mid-game.

Three, I'm not 100% positive about number 2 :dizzy: .However, I can say I've played a few modded games and scenarios in which the changes (made by the creator) took effect irregardless of anything I did or didn't do with my local copy of the text. I'd need to do more thorough testing to see if this is always true. If it is, as I suspect, then MP games are nicely vaulted against this sort of tampering or accidental mis-match of texts.
-Smack

I can give a strong "YesNo" to that, or a "BooRay" if you prefer :confused: .

Some stuff is 'captured' in the scenario (like the #Units list) but most stuff isn't. For example, if you change the chopper speed in the #Chasis table (so they don't go as far) in your alpha(x).txt, and then play a PBEM, your choppers will be affected in the PBEM (but later players with a normal alpha(x).txt will not). Some stuff from the faction.txt files is also captured, like maybe everything up to (and I think including) the #BaseNameLists, but again, some is not, like probably the #Datalinks and beyond - don't know about the #Blurb, but if it only shows when you are starting a game, it wouldn't make sense for them to have gone out of their way to store it.

Regarding Blind Research, it is quite likely that it behaves in a similarly predictable way (presumably more complicated though); if we used that in the next ACDG, it would no doubt interest someone in doing the legwork necessary to figure it out. OTOH, perhaps there is a weighted randomness involved in the Blind Research algorithm, which would keep it from being as predictable (although that imperfect predictability is anathema to some :p ).

[smacksim]

BooRay indeed ;)

Glad to see you've taken up the creative end of things JohnD. And whatever is 'picked up' or not, it is wise not to meddle unless you are confident of your file-swapping abilities.

-S

[Chaos Theory]

Actually, in my experience, the base name list is not only not attached to saves and scenarios, it's not even in memory in the current game! I was tinkering with a faction file's base name list during a game, and although I kept saving the faction file, I didn't reload SMAX. However, one of the bases I subsequently founded had a new name. It's ridiculously inefficient to reparse the faction file every time a base is founded, but you can get away with that in UIs...

[Maniac]

*BUMP*

After for a time fruitlessly seeking out why the tech choices the tech choice simulator gave me didn't match the real choices, I finally discovered the "Starting techs" setting in the simulator doesn't seem to work, does't have an effect on what techs will be available: it doesn't matter whether I have 1, 2 or 10 starting techs set. Am I the only one with this problem, or is it a programming error in the excel file?

In any case, once again a big thumbs up for Minute Mirage and his tech choice simulator. :b: :b:

[Maniac]

More specifically, the "b" doesn't seem to be calculated in.

I think I've got the basic formula figured out now. This is what seems to work for me:

t = position of tech in alphax.txt (0-88)
n = total number of technologies for the faction
b = number of technologies at the beginning of the game for the faction
s= slot number of the faction

The condition is

(n + t + s - b) mod 3 != 0

[Hercules]

I found that the slot number has a significant effect.

[Dis]

I have something I've been neglecting to admit.

but here it goes.

I really don't like using crawlers.

Does this make me strange?

[Chaos Theory]

If it's because you don't think they're good enough, yes. If it's because you think they're too good, no.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by Maniac

After for a time fruitlessly seeking out why the tech choices the tech choice simulator gave me didn't match the real choices, I finally discovered the "Starting techs" setting in the simulator doesn't seem to work, does't have an effect on what techs will be available: it doesn't matter whether I have 1, 2 or 10 starting techs set. Am I the only one with this problem, or is it a programming error in the excel file?



That's odd, "Starting techs" seems to work for me. Do you have the latest 1.07 version?

[Illuminatus]

You are the only one with this problem Maniac. Sheet works perfect for me.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
If it's because you don't think they're good enough, yes. If it's because you think they're too good, no.

perhaps it's because civ didn't have units like these. I still tend to play this game too much like civ. I know it hampers my strategy too much, but oh well.

[Maniac]

After some further investigation it appears the excel sheet worked perfectly after all. The problem lied elsewhere. :)

Sorry for needlessly bothering you, MM. :(

[binTravkin]

The problem lied elsewhere.

Didn't your mother teach you to not play with macros?:rolleyes:

[livid imp]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Didn't your mother teach you to not play with macros?:rolleyes:

If you keep playing with your macros like that you'll go blind :cool:

[Commy]

I'm not even going to ask...

[vyeh]

I downloaded the file SMAC(X)_Technology_Choices_v1.07.xls.

I was trying to use OpenOffice.org 3.0 Beta (Mac OSX Power PC).

After I set slot number to 7 and traded technologies to yes, I added Centauri Ecology through the drop down menu. When I hit add/del. I got the error message, "BASIC runtime error. Object variable not set." and "ActiveSheet.Unprotect" was highlighted under the Sub Add_Del ().

Has anyone has managed to get the Technology Choices spreadsheet to work under OpenOffice.org?

[Minute Mirage]

I assume the problem is that the Excel macros don't work in OpenOffice. Unless there is a way of automatically converting the macros to a format OpenOffice understands, one would have to do it by hand. Unfortunately, my code has essentially no comments, but it doesn't do anything too fancy, so it could be possible for someone to go through it and convert it. If anyone wants to do this, feel free.

[vyeh]

Besides what is posted in this thread, are there any other notes, links about your spreadsheet?

[Minute Mirage]

As far as I know, this thread has the relevant information concerning the spreadsheet.

[vyeh]

In the ACDG5 game, we only got one tech choice (http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=5398717#post5398717), Centauri Empathy, the joker tech, between MY 2131 and MY 2132.

I had followed the procedure (http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=5398591#post5398591) in this thread and predicted we should also have had Polymorphic Software and Doctrine: Loyalty to choose from.

Has anyone encountered this problem before?

[Hercules]

Hmmm I 'll check it later. I usually found it a reliable indicator.

[vyeh]

Download the 2131 save and see if you get more than one choice. Maybe its a Mac problem.

[Mart]

One of the difficult things is that Unity Mission had no techs in the beginning, now the excel file has no such option. We tried various things.
I checked excel in windows.
If the settings are:
1 starting tech
7 slot
Yes for trading techs
then the option is given to research only Centauri Empathy.

Maybe here is the difference, somehow method gives now correct answers when starting techs are now set to 1?

[vyeh]

I explained (http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=5326375#post5326375) that once tech has been traded, starting tech value is irrelevant.

Are you saying the excel file did NOT give Polymorphic Software and Doctrine: Loyalty as well as Centauri Empathy with

1 starting tech
7 slot
the techs listed in this post (http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=5398591#post5398591)
Yes for trading techs?

[Mart]

Yes, I got only Cent. Empathy.
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7346/acdg5techs2132co6.jpg
there seem to be problems with thumbnail size:
[img=http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7346/acdg5techs2132co6.th.jpg] (http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=acdg5techs2132co6.jpg)

[vyeh]

Thanks. I added up 16 + 22 + 7 and got 35 instead of the correct value of 45 for t+n+s for Polymorphic Software and I used n=44 instead of the correct n=43 for Doctrine: Loyalty (the correct value of t+n+s is 66, not 67).

After I corrected my errors, both Polymorphic Software and Doctrine: Loyalty are eliminated, so the only tech available was the joker tech, which would not have been available except for its joker status.

Obviously, there are advantages to having the computer do the calculations.

Thanks, Mart.

[vyeh]

Originally posted by Kody
After you've traded techs the starting techs is no-longer part of the formula. I've tested it with the Hive and University, after toggling a tech it switched to a different formula. That formula didn't subtract the starting tech from the mod.


I discovered (http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5500620&t=6818#post5500620) a slight subtlety in ACDG6 (http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=182549) (a SMAniaC (http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134088) mod).

If a faction demands a tech and you suggest an exchange, it does not count as trading techs (you still need to subtract the starting tech).