Operation Joshua

[regoarrarr]

As RB Chief Thread-Spammer, I decided that Operation Joshua was too awesome of a name to not get its own thread :lol:

First post is the copy of sunrise's plan from the Cape Town thread. Next I will post my sit-rep from T146.

*Pink Dot is almost totally undefended, so we had better hope the Templar units retreat towards Jericho rather than press up on Pink.
*Any units we use from the Cape Town garrison will be visible by Templars the turn before we move them in. We should discuss which tile looks the most like a simple repositioning rather than a prelude to an advance.
*We would need 9 cats to fully bombard down Jericho's defenses for a t147 attack, leaving Cape Town with only a single cat.

I think an attack on turn 149 might work.
*T144 - Jericho's defenses stand at 42%.
*T145 - Jericho's defenses stand at 38%.
*T146 - Jericho's defenses stand at 34%.
*T147 - Jericho's defenses stand at 30%. Units from Pink Dot move NE onto the desert road tile between the peaks. 2 cats from Cape Town move south along the road no later than this turn....we may want to move them south and then past Jericho earlier to disguise what we're doing though.
*T148 - Jericho's defenses stand at 26%. 2 workers, 5 maces and 4 cats from Pink Dot, 2 knights and 2 cats from Cape Town, and all of our 2-movers from the central garrison move into the Jericho forest. Also as of t148 we need at least three knights to have been produced and stationed south of Upper Burgundy in order to relieve the Pink Dot defenders sent north.
*T149 - Bombard defenses with 6 cats down to 2%. Sacrifice 1 cat attacking the city. Maces attack (only the one attacking the healthy crossbow at 9.6v11.7 won't have odds) and capture/burn Jericho. Workers road the Jericho forest.
*T150 - Chariots/horse archers cut any roads connecting Templars to Jericho or the city ruins. Any cats not needed for a counterattack return north, and can hit Imperio attacks on turn 151. Likewise any horse archers unused in the battle can head south should Templars advance on Pink Dot, and can attack Templar units on t151.

Here's what our armies would look like if we go with a T149 attack. This assumes we'll configure Pink Dot, Airstrip 1, and Something Fishy as necessary to produce three knights before we move in, and that Cape Town will produce a pair of knights itself.
*Cape Dot army - 9 strength-8 units, 2 pikes, 1 axe, 2 cats, 4 archers.
*Pink Dot army - 3 knights, 1 elephant, 2 pikes, 1 longbow, 2 archers.
*Jericho army - 2 knights, 6 maces, 7 horse archers, 1 pike, 7 cats, 2 chariots.

The touchiest situation would be if Templars move their entire force against Pink Dot on t148. They could hit the city on turn 150 before any other RB units could make it inside the city. However, we will have odds with all three of our horse archers and the elephant attacking out against the Templar stack. If we manage four victories, that will only leave the Templars a horse archer, crossbow, sword, and three chariots to kill a longbow, 2 pikes, and 2 archers in Pink. Even with three cats, that isn't happening against a 40% city on a hill. And remember, if Templars wait a turn to bombard our horse archers are back in the fight.

All that said, I'm very confident about this plan, provided Templars don't reinforce their southern army with 2-3 more high-strength units before turn 148. If they do we're going to need to either delay the attack or be willing to slave an equal number of units of our own in the south.

@Swiss - As long as we pillage the roads connecting Jericho to the Templar land I hope they try to retake the city. With all of the cats we'll have on hand and our 2-movers at more or less full health we'll crush their stack of maces and crossbows. It would be touchier if they could hit us on turn 149, but they can't due to a lack of roads.

[regoarrarr]

And of course we start with the running Krill gag :lol:


So on what turn will Pink Dot be totally undefended?


I logged in today to get a sit-rep of our armies. Here is the various armies, the tiles they are on as of T146, and which of our 3 armies they belong to

Strike Force Jericho (J)
Pink Dot Defense (P)
Cape Town Defense (C)
Unassigned or it was unclear to me (U)



On the tile N-NW of Pink Dot, we have 4 cats (J), 5 maces (J), 1 Ele (P). The Jericho armies will move to the signed desert tile on T147, and to the forest NW of Jericho on T148
On the forest NW of Jericho we have a mace, pike and cat (all J) - these guys are already in place and have already completed 5 circuits around the city walls :viking:
In Cape Town, there are 2 pikes, 1 ax, and 4 archers (C) and 1 knight (J)
On the tile 1S of Cape Town, 4 maces (C), 5 elephants (C), and 6 cats (2C, 2J and 2U)
On the hill ESE of Pink Dot, 1 longbow on a hill (P)
3 North of Pink Dot, 1 Horse Archer (J)
Near Upper Burgundy, 6 Horse Archers (J). All 7 horse archers will move to the desert tile on T147 and to the forest NW of Jericho on T148
In Pink Dot, 2 pikes and 2 archers (P)
2 west of Pink Dot, 2 chariots (P)
Knight due to be whipped in Pink Dot on T147 (U)
Knight due in Airstrip One on T148/9(U)
Knight due in Something Fishy in T150 if not whipped(U)
Knight due in Cape Town on T148 (J)


So, if I add correctly,

Strike Force Jericho (J) - 7 cats, 6 maces, 1 pike, 2 knights, 7 horse archers
Pink Dot Defense (P) - 1 ele, 1 longbow, 2 pikes, 2 chariots, 2 archers
Cape Town Defense (C) - 2 pikes, 1 ax, 4 archers, 4 maces, 5 elephants, 2 cats
Unassigned or it was unclear to me (U) - 2 cats, 3 knights


I know we talked about moving those knights to Pink Dot for defense, but we can play it by ear if we need them in Jericho or not. Also, there were 2 extra cats that I was not sure if they were desired at Jericho or if they should stay at Cape Town for defense vs. Imperio if necessary.

T147 - the Jericho strike force should all congregate on the desert tile

If we need the knight out of A1 on T148, we have to swap off the cottage back to the mine.

--Lieutenant keek

[Krill]

So on what turn will Pink Dot be totally undefended?

I approve of this posters straightforwardness in the face of adversity. :b:

[Swiss Pauli]

This thread seems as good a place as any for this:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/apostolicpalace.php

Pertinent Points

- The Apostolic Palace is located in Damascus, and is Christian.

- We are a Voting Member (Pink Dot, and, potentially, Jericho).

- Banana doesn't have a Christian city (yet), so a vote for Diplo Win is not possible. If it were possible then at least one other civ must vote for the winner in order for a Religious Victory to be won.

- Defying an AP resolution will cost 5 :mad: for 20 turns in each Christian city. This penalty can be shortened (number of turns unknown) by having other religions in cities with Christianity.

- The vote to 'assign City N from Civ X to Y' can only happen if civ X & Y aren't at war.

- AP votes are held every 10 turns, starting with a vote for the Resident. Four votes can then be proposed by the Resident until the next election.

[sooooo]

Good work regoarrarr, I'll take a more detailed look tonight.

If we need the knight out of A1 on T148, we have to swap off the cottage back to the mine.

Done.

[dsplaisted]

Can we name one of our knights Joshua?

[Sullla]

Hey, we can't have one of these threads without some snazzy pictures! :D

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=162182&stc=1&d=1243102619

Well one, anyway. (More to come on succeeding turns as we move forward.) I labeled our forces with the same nomenclature that regoarrarr used above, J for the Jericho strike team, P for the Pink Dot defense, and C for the Cape Town defense (which is off screen to the north). The yellow arrows provide a visual illustration of our attack plan to reach Jericho.

I put in two additional features. First, the two black Xs mark forest tiles that we will want to road (and probably chop as well) should we be successful in capturing Jericho. There are Templar soldiers all over the place at the moment, so we certainly can't build them in the immediate future. I am expecting the Templars to retreat these units when they see our attack, which may potentially open up the opportunity for some more aggressive road building in this area. We will have to play this by ear, obviously, but it helps to start thinking about this ahead of time. The Templar road network is not up to par, and that's going to cost them! Failure to road the tile NW of their Pink Dot stack in the south is just criminally negligent, because it prevents that stack from being able to defend Jericho if needed. They're going to lose a city as a result of that error. :cool:

Secondly, while this is something that sunrise is assuredly thinking about, I want to bring it to the rest of the team's attention. Again assuming that we are successful at Jericho, we may have the potential to raze Constantinople in a lightning raid with double-movers. Constantinople is well behind the Templar lines, and it's entirely possible that they have just an archer in there. (Certainly look at our backline cities for comparison!) Depending on what we see in Jericho, we could possibly move a couple of units SE-SE on T149, and then SE-E on T150 and be in the city before they can shift units to react. Again, this assumes that we are successful at Jericho, remember. Keep in mind that the Templars are not in Slavery civic http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Smilies/smoke.gif http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Smilies/smoke.gif http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Smilies/smoke.gif and cannot react quickly to our moves. Plus, they're the Templars, the same team that asked if we had Literature after building the Great Library.

I'm not saying this *WILL* happen, but it's a possibility if our attack goes well, and we should indeed be thinking about it. That's why sunrise is sending those 7 horse archers along with the maces and cats. Anyway, one last comment: the initial plan called for sending 2 knights along with the Joshua forces. Do we want to send a third one instead, and keep 2 knights back to defend Pink? sunrise, what are your thoughts on this now that we get closer to the actual attack? I also concur that we should try to avoid whipping the knight at Something Fishy if possible; maybe send 2 knights to Jericho, and rely on the SF knight to defend Pink?

[ruff_hi]

the tile marked 't147' ... that is visible to templars ... isn't it? As such, they will see us park a large number of units on that tile. Is this time for some diplomatic mis-direction ... something like ...

"Dear Templars,

While we are seeking peace deals, Imperio is moving to attack us in the North. I thought you were talking to them about peace too. We are not a team that will sit by and talk while other teams attack us.

Can you please double your efforts to bring Imperio to the peace table?

Regards"

Or is that a little too obvious?

[sunrise089]

They do not have visibility on the T147 tile.

[regoarrarr]

My (no MP experience) thoughts would be that we could send the PD knight (in addition to the 2 CT knights) in Strike Force Jericho, counting on the SF knight and the one from A1 to guard Pink Dot.

My other concern is the 3 new Imperio knights - if Cape Town defense needs any knights up there

[sunrise089]

The Pink Dot and Something Fishy knights should stay in the south. If the A1 knight is done on turn 148 it can participate on the attack on Jericho. Of course we need to be open to the possibility of emergency whips in any of our southern or central cities.

3 Imperio knights are no threat in the short term. However with our current number of elephants essentially our only supply and with pikes being weak units, the best counter will be to keep pumping knights of our own. Until we can build Oromos we need to just pump knights and cats, which should do a fine job at keeping pace with anything Imperio is building.

[regoarrarr]

The A1 knight will be done on T148, so it will be ready. We may even be able to swap back over to the cottage from the mine next turn and still have it due on T148.

[mostly-harmless]

My other concern is the 3 new Imperio knights - if Cape Town defense needs any knights up there

Don't be concerned, there are no Imperio knights yet.
I was assuming that Imperios recent 90hammer builds were Knights, especially since they were started right after they got Guilds.
However, Imperio decided that they are better off with a couple of Libraries and a Colosseum (Ball Court UB). What was I thinking. :scared::D

mh

[Sullla]

Updated picture of the attack in progress for T147:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=162198&stc=1&d=1243264996

Also note the two workers (circled in red) who finished chopping at Upper Burgundy this turn, and who will presumably go along with the army next turn to road our passage into Jericho. Nice planning! :b:

Bonus from the C&D thread: Soldier count analysis of Templars, to try and give us an idea of what we'll face when we attack.

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=162199&stc=1&d=1243264996

First the numbers on the bar graphs. It should be clear that we've continued to increase our military forces, while Templars and (especially) Imperio have slowed down dramatically. Now for the numbers game:

Templars Soldier Points = 327k

Population: 32 pop points = 16k

Technology: Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry (2k each) = 8k
Wheel, Alphabet, Metal Casting, Compass, Construction (4k each) = 20k
Mathematics, Archery (6k each) = 12k
Bronze Working, Machinery (8k each) = 16k
Horseback Riding, Iron Working (10k each) = 20k
Total = 76k

City Improvements/Wonders
Jerusalem: Barracks, Forge = 5k
Constantinople: Barracks (?), Forge (?) almost certain = 5k
Damascus: Barracks, Forge = 5k
Jericho: Walls, Forge = 4k
Acre: nothing
Total = 19k

This leaves 216k Soldier points for units.

Visible/Known units:

Quechua in extreme south = 2k

Pink Dot stack:
2 maces (9k each) = 19k
1 horse archer = 6k
2 crossbows (7k each) = 14k
1 sword = 6k
3 cats (5k each) = 15k
3 chariots (4k each) = 12k
1 spear = 4k
Total = 76k

Central stack:
1 crossbow = 7k
1 axe = 5k
Total = 12k

Jericho defense:
1 mace = 9k
1 horse archer = 6k
1 crossbow = 7k
1 axe = 5k
3 spears (4k each) = 12k
Total = 39k

Total visible = 129k
Missing = 87k

Figure 25-30k for defense garrisons in other cities, and that leaves roughly 50-60k worth of units unaccounted for. Templars likely have a moderate-sized stack of units somewhere in their territory, although where is anyone's guess. Hopefully a lot of un-upgraded swords, spears, and axes. ;)

[sunrise089]

Hmmm.....well that's actually a pretty decent behind-the-scenes stack. However the beauty of the Joshua plan is our units sit in defensive terrain until they actually attack the city, so if Templars don't have the units in Jericho on T149 we're still in good shape.

I guess we'll know later this week.

PS - Nice work calculating all of this Sullla.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Hmmm.....well that's actually a pretty decent behind-the-scenes stack. However the beauty of the Joshua plan is our units sit in defensive terrain until they actually attack the city, so if Templars don't have the units in Jericho on T149 we're still in good shape.
You mean we will still be in good shape taking Jericho, right? But how do we deal with that potential hidden stack afterwards?

What I mean is, I think the plan is to take and not to raze Jericho, so can we really hope to hold it? Reading up on your plan, any surviving cats and horse archers return to the northern/southern armies to defend against the existing stacks. So in the worst case, a 60k stack could easily retake Jericho, correct?

It's not my intention to play Cassandra here, and I'm still in favor of Operation Joshua, but I'm not clear on our plans how to deal with Jericho after we successfully killed the garrison. :)

-Kylearan

[sooooo]

I predict that Templars' remaining troops will be split between Jerusalem (defend capital against naval assault) and Acre (defend against banana). I think the plan is to use chariots and horse archers to cut the roads off. That way the counterattacking stacks will have to spend a turn in open territory outside the city, where we will still have 6 healthy catapults to hit them with.

But I share your concern and clearly razing the city is still an option to consider.

[sunrise089]

Yes Soooo, as long as we can cut roads (and we have 8 mounted units in play) Templars can only hit our city with 2-movers or by moving off the road network. With the obsolete units they have they will be absolutely wiped out by 6 cats. Without elephants or knights, horse archers along can crush anything the Templars can throw at us as long as we can cat the stack.

The biggest concern will be if Templars try to retake the city with their "hidden army" and simultaneously advance on Pink Dot. In that case we won't be able to pull units from Jericho to cover Pink and will have to slave units, but that still isn't the end of the world.

[sunrise089]

Guys, make sure to check back here early during T149. I'll post the play-by-play of the Jericho attack and we can discuss whether to keep or raze the city as casualty reports come in. Therefore expect me to spend a lot of time logged in during T149.

Sorry for the double post.

[sooooo]

Just a FYI: The grass tile 1SW of Jericho was unroaded when we misclicked the horse archer into the adjacent forest. So unless they have roaded it in the meantime the catapult/axeman mini stack on the hill will not be able to reach the city in time.

[ruff_hi]

Guys, make sure to check back here early during T149. I'll post the play-by-play of the Jericho attack and we can discuss whether to keep or raze the city as casualty reports come in. Therefore expect me to spend a lot of time logged in during T149.What is the ETA on this battle (Edit: Looks like Friday morning)? Do we want to set up some real time chat (ie via Y! messenger) or telephone (skype?) hook up to streamline this?

[sunrise089]

Doesn't matter does it Sooooo? The hill the 2 units are on isn't roaded, right?

What is the ETA on this battle? Do we want to set up some real time chat (ie via Y! messenger) or telephone (skype?) hook up to streamline this?

I plan to start attacking right when the timer ticks over, that way we'll have time for some discussion.

I'd be happy to hang out on a messaging chat room, or you could use my clan's TeamSpeak server if you have a mic.

Realistically though using the forum is probably the best to ensure enough people can comment. I plan to make my first post "how many cats should be bombard with and how many should we attack with," but we need to know how many total defenders we'll face before we can ask that.

[regoarrarr]

In the meantime, can you post (I'm sure you probably have already), what the current city defense % is, and how much (4%?) it goes down per cat?

Maybe what odds we currently have with various combinations?

I know I read someone (Memphus @ CFC maybe?) who creates test saves to do battles, and runs them through various simulations to figure out where the best odds are.

Does something like that make sense?

[sunrise089]

I've made some test saves, it's just tedious with so many units in play.

The city currently stands at 26% defenses and each cat lowers defenses 4%. We have 7 cats, so next turn we can totally lower the defenses if we want.

I can tell you right now that every cat will make the city more likely to be captured with minimal losses to our maces and knights by attacking rather than bombarding. BUT we'll loose most or all of the cats.

My feeling is that we should bombard with 5-6 cats and attack with 1-2. That will leave the defenses at 2-6% and the defenders lightly damaged. Our knights have 35% odds on the city right now, and that should change to about 50/50 or better once the defenses are knocked the rest of the way down. Our maces, if promoted to city raider, will have odds versus every unit except for the crossbow.

[regoarrarr]

Okay - so let's use this time before we have to attack next turn to narrow down our options.

#1 - we have to decide how many of our 7 cats to bombard with
#2 - what are the options on what units to start the attack with?
#3 - how many units (of which type) would we say is "too much"?

[mostly-harmless]

I would use 4 cats for bombard and 3 cats to attack.
Unless Templar pull lots of units our from Constantinople (and I personally think that there is no "hidden army", the missing soldier points are just spread across their land) we should be fully committed to the attack. If the battle is too bloody, we raze the city.

mh

[kjara]

I've finally caught up with most of the recent history:

It seems to me that how many cats we should use depends on if we want to try to keep the town? I believe the current plan is to keep it?

It seems to me that if we keep the town, that we won't be able culturally take the square one se of jericho, and thus won't be able to hit a force with cats before it hits us from templars. [Edit I guess we could burn the road if we have an extra turn in there and want to risk sacrificing a unit?]. Thus we would want to use more cats, and try to preserve the rest of our force both in numbers and in health to eat the collateral from the few cats that they have(I believe the latest count was ~4?). However, the cats could be useful against the imperio force at mutal if imperio tries to combine forces(aka templar cries for help and imperio sees it as a chance to kill a stack of ours) and tries to attack from the ne rather than spending the turns to circle to the se. We can raze the road that I'm expecting is one ne of jericho(it could be that we know no road exists, which also works) and be able to cat this stack as it attacks(since desert means they can't offensively road it and attack on the same turn?). Thus it seems that we should be willing to sacrifice an extra cat or 2 if we are going to try to hold the city, since we will only be able to use them against a imperio army and will want the higher odds for less damage and less losses. [Edit: ok I've relooked at some things, and realized I don't have a good grasp where the templar harassing force is. Do we know how many turns away from jericho is it?--some of this only holds if it can hit us the turn after we take the town.]

Do we plan on making one of the horse archers a medic if one of them hits 5 xp?

[sunrise089]

@kjara - It is very unlikely the Templars would be able to hit us with their southern stack in two turns. They would need about 3 workers already in place to do it, and they would need to have that plains hill south of Jerico roaded, which I don't think is the case.

Certainly though, we do want to make it hard on Templars to re-road the desert tile 1SE of Jericho if we keep the city. In the short term we can keep a mace and knight there, but in the long term we desperately need to control at least the city's first ring of tiles.

[sooooo]

The last time we saw the tiles 1NE and 1SW of Jericho they were unroaded. I predict their only road to Jericho is the desert 1SE. However, we should remember that they are in serfdom so need only 1 worker to lay down a normal road and 2 workers to road a desert tile.

[sunrise089]

The last time we saw the tiles 1NE and 1SW of Jericho, they were unroaded. I predict their only road to Jericho is the desert 1SE. However, we should remember that they are in serfdom so need only 1 worker to lay down a normal road and 2 workers to road a desert tile.

Sadly, they still need infinite worker turns to make up for loosing cities due to the inability to slave units.

Serfdom anytime other than the turn of an attack is so silly.... ;)

[kjara]

If you don't think the group can get there in 2 turns, then my main concern would be if imperio brings part of their stack down to help the templars take the town back. Their main stack is about 4 1-mover turns away from jericho(I think).

I guess the sw route is also a concern until the town comes out of revolt. It should be easier to take cultural control of, but since its a grassland, they can offensive road it easier until we do.

[sooooo]

Thankfully our spy should be able to track Imperio's movements. Frankly I'd be very pleased if they did send the stack down to help templars. That way we could follow and hit it with pretty much all of the Cape Town defence force and the Jericho forces combined. That stack of ours in the north is pretty darn big.

[T-hawk]

However, we should remember that they are in serfdom so need only 1 worker to lay down a normal road and 2 workers to road a desert tile.

That's only true for Quick speed, right? On Normal speed, to get a road in 1 worker turn, you need both Serfdom and Hagia Sophia/Steam Power.

[kjara]

The capetown stack is decent sized, but isn't theirs still about 1.3x the size of it or so? I would think that if they came down, and they actually coordinated reasonably with the templars they could do some damage, but I lack the multiplayer experience that some of you have.

[Dreylin]

I would think that if <snip> they actually coordinated reasonably with the templars

Ahahahahahahaha! :lol:

[sunrise089]

Ahahahahahahaha! :lol:

If both stacks coordinated then the attacker has an enormous advantage. Our Cape Town stack and our Jericho stack have a combined total of 36 units, and Imperio and Templars together have about 42 units they can put in the field. But if we can hit first with 11 cats...well the next 25 battles are victories and we'd flank every enemy cat (15 of them) leaving them with....2 units :)

Of course that battle will never happen.

[sooooo]

That's only true for Quick speed, right? On Normal speed, to get a road in 1 worker turn, you need both Serfdom and Hagia Sophia/Steam Power.
Oh, good point.

[kjara]

Ah, was thinking they had slightly higher number odds than that, but yeh, if we can keep them from getting a road from deep in templar territory where they can strike from beyond our range with cats, we should be fine against those odds.

Edit: @sunrise, do those numbers count in the losses from taking jericho? (I know they don't on our side, as we are going to lose at least 1-2 cats taking it, but does the 36 estimate for them count the current jericho defenders?)

[Sullla]

Bullet points on our main points of discussion:

- I totally agree with sunrise on the catapults. 5-6 cats to bombard, 1-2 to suicide for collateral damage. The exact number for each depends on what odds our units are getting.

- Depending on the matchup odds, we should be able to take the city with pretty minimal losses. Now *IF* we can do that, and *IF* Templars don't move lots of units into Jericho on their turn, we should definitely keep the city. It gets us iron (no more need to borrow from Banana), fits well with our dotmap, and gives us a very strong defensive position in the center of the map. Only raze if there is absolutely no other option.

- I also don't think the Templars are in any position to respond; I really think we've caught them with their pants down here. Let's hope they forget to promote their units too, heh! :D

Since we have visibility on the main Imperio stack, I'm going to run the Soldier count tally for them tomorrow and see how it compares to their known units. I should also be able to be logged in when we roll over to the next turn (unless it's in the middle of the night US time) and take part in any forum discussion here.

Everything looking really solid thus far. No Slavery for Templars = fatal mistake. :hammer:

[Dreylin]

If both stacks coordinated then the attacker has an enormous advantage.
Of course that battle will never happen.

Yeah, it was the chances of them actually coordinating that I was laughing at, noit the consequences of such. We'd be hosed if the two tams actually managed to coordinate (and build troops durin wartime).

[Kylearan]

After reading all the responses and clarifications on the plan, I agree chances are not bad the we will be able to hold Jericho, assuming no abysmal combat luck. I think there is a small fast response stack of some kind hidden somewhere, but not the whole 60k and thus not enough to drive us out.

Looking very much forward to our first real battle! :hammer:

[sooooo]

A picture of the defenders copied here for reference:

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/9199/jericho.jpg

Note that they don't have an archer that they could upgrade to a longbow. I expect them to upgrade their axe to a maceman or their spear to a pikeman. If they borrow money from Imperio then they could do both.

[mostly-harmless]

Upgrading units fall under the 16hours rule, right? So if Imperio only grants the money after Templars 16hours are up, they can't (or should not) upgrade.

We will have a very hard time flipping the tile SE of Jericho.
It sits in Jerichos 1st ring. But it also sits in Constantinoples 2nd ring and Const is about to pop its 4th ring soon.

Question regarding walls & castles. Do they become obsolete when the attacker or the defender has Gunpowder?

mh

[sooooo]

Upgrading units fall under the 16hours rule, right? So if Imperio only grants the money after Templars 16hours are up, they can't (or should not) upgrade.

Technically yes. I only hope that Templars do upgrade in their 18 hours to avoid the arguments that could ensue if they don't.

We will have a very hard time flipping the tile SE of Jericho.
It sits in Jerichos 1st ring. But it also sits in Constantinoples 2nd ring and Const is about to pop its 4th ring soon.

Not if Constantinople is razed by mounted units on turn 150 or 151 :)
Is Jerusalem exerting any culture on the tile?

Question regarding walls & castles. Do they become obsolete when the attacker or the defender has Gunpowder?

I thought that it wasn't having the technology that was important, but the fact that the units are gunpowder units (eg musketmen, cavalry). I could be wrong though.

[mostly-harmless]

Not if Constantinople is razed by mounted units on turn 150 or 151 :)
Is Jerusalem exerting any culture on the tile?

Jerusalem's 4th ring hugs the mined hill 2S of Jericho.

mh

[MyOtherCar]

I recall from some (much) earlier post that Templars even had one of their coastal cities undefended. So either they have not many units or have all they have focused on us.

[T-hawk]

I thought that it wasn't having the technology that was important, but the fact that the units are gunpowder units (eg musketmen, cavalry). I could be wrong though.

This is correct. The Castle mouseover says "Obsolete with Economics (except defensive bonus)". Whether the defense is applied depends on what unit is attacking. The game shows it clearly - the defense number for a city will update according to the unit you have selected.

Also, although Cuirassiers and Cavalry are mounted units (not gunpowder), there's an exception so that the Castle defense doesn't apply to them.

On another note, I think we can be sure that the plains tile 1SW of Jericho is unroaded. We have visibility to the roaded tile 2W of Jericho, but the road in that square shows no connections. If 1SW were roaded, the 2W tile would show its road extending to the lower-right corner of the square.

The same effect goes for the plains and hill tiles 2S and 2S 1W of Jericho which show no connection to the visible hill 3S 1W.

edit: bugger the clumsy text, here's an image pointing out the lack of road connections.

[Sullla]

You're right T-Hawk, I don't think those tiles are roaded either. Bugger of a job by the Templars to have only one road connection to their front line city - what were they thinking?! http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Smilies/smoke.gif http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Smilies/pipe.gif http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Smilies/smoke.gif Anyway, I wanted to cross-post the info on the Imperio Soldier count from the C&D thread, since it's highly relevant here:

As of last turn (T148), Imperio soldier count was 384 and Templars were still at 318k. Our Soldier count was 492k (which increased to 522k this turn with triple knight builds! We will get a major power increase on the graph next turn.) On the current turn (T149), Imperio did not increase their Soldier count, so they did not build any new units this turn. We will have to wait until next turn to see the Templar response. They added a crossbow in Jericho, but that may have been moved into the city, not trained there.

Imperio Soldier Points = 384k

Population: 49 pop points = 24k

Technology: Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry (2k each) = 8k
Wheel, Alphabet, Metal Casting, Compass, Construction (4k each) = 20k
Mathematics, Archery (6k each) = 12k
Guilds, Bronze Working, Machinery (8k each) = 24k
Horseback Riding, Iron Working (10k each) = 20k
Total = 84k

City Improvements/Wonders
Mutal: Barracks (3k), Forge (2k) = 5k
Lakamha: Barracks (3k) = 3k
Chichen Itza: Barracks (3k) = 3k
Uxmal: Barracks (3k), Statue of Zeus (4k) = 7k
Mayapan: Barracks (3k) = 3k
Calakmul: Barracks (3k) = 3k
Total = 24k

This leaves 252k Soldier points for units.

Visible/Known units:

Chichen Itza defense
1 mace = 9k
1 pike = 6k
6 longbows (6k each) = 36k
1 galley = 2k
Total = 53k

Imperio main stack
6 maces (9k each) = 54k
3 elephants (8k each) = 24k
4 horse archers (6k each) = 24k
2 pikes (6k each) = 12k
11 cats (5k each) = 55k
Total = 169k

Total = 222k

This only leaves 30k available for garrison duty, which isn't even enough for one longbow per city. We can therefore state with extremely high certainty (99%) that Imperio has no other attack force. So long as we keep visual contact on their main giant stack, we can stay one step ahead of them.

Needless to say, this is extremely good news! :D Furthermore, I slightly overestimated Templar military strength in my previous C&D analysis. I was using the data for the current turn with the bar graphs instead of the data for the past turn, and this led to a minor error. As I said at the top of this post, the Templar Soldier count is actually 318k, and not 327k as I estimated previously. This means that we are missing about 75k worth of units, which - while still formidable - is not as bad we had feared. If 30k of that is tied up in garrisons, we are looking at 40-50k worth of units in the Templars mobile reserve. Guess we'll find out what they have in reserve soon enough...

[mostly-harmless]

The Xbow at Jericho was finished this turn.

mh

[regoarrarr]

Okay. Hopefully the team will not be mad at me but I was talking to Memphus who posts usually over at CFC. He is on team SANCTA in that demo game along with myself and a bunch of the rest of us. So I had seen him mention at one point that he has a combat spreadsheet that he uses to simulate out battles in cases like this. So after verifying that he was not on any of the teams in our game and swearing him to secrecy, I shared the situations for this battle. (Though I guess none of this is secret as long as the Templars are actually paying attention to the tile 1NW of one of their cities :dunno:)

Still, if consensus is that I should not do this, in the future I won't. I did invite him to join our team, and he also said that the spreadsheet uses some sort of AI from where he works so he can't just share the spreadsheet.

This is what he said


Ok first results are in:


You have a 93% chance of taking that city this turn.



You have two paths: (all other ones die out more than 1/3rd of the time and in my books that is too high)


1. Mounted First (as you suggested) I.E. Knights, HA then ground units

2. Maces First



Drills downs are now computing.


and then


Sending in your HA first with flanking is looking more promising.

But it depends how well the bombard does.


The info is telling me (so far) you threats are:


X-Bows. (but knights eat them up)

Pikes (this is what stops your knights above)

Your Cat’s are going to hit the X-Bows so it s telling me that they should have CR1 (fodder they die anyway but the more you hurt those units….)

It is also telling me that bombarding all the way to 0% ISNT the best option. That one extra collateral damage should be kept.


So basically:

If your Cats hurt the X-Bows you go maces first.

If they don’t you Go HA (to hit the pikes and withdraw) then knights to rip through X-Bows, then clean up with maces

[sunrise089]

Ok, interesting analysis.

What he forgets is that these units aren't only going to be used to attack this city. Promoting our horses to flanking and then using them before the knights might make sense if this was going to knock Templars out of the game, but Combat I is clearly the better promo for the long-term.

I'm not even sure about going city raider on the cat rather than collateral. There are more anti-mounted defenders in the city than anti-melee, so using the collateral promo to weaken those spears sure appeals to me.

[regoarrarr]

Do HAs have an inherent retreat capability, or is that just with Flanking?

Certainly at some probability P of retreating, it would make sense, right? After all a live HA with flanking is certainly better than a dead Combat 1 HA... And at least the first 1 or 2 that go up against a pike are all but certainly going to the glue factory

Has anyone used this mod for test odds?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=310415

[sunrise089]

There isn't a pike in the city though, right?

My thought is this: 3 knights will fight the city defender crossbow, the mace, and then probably one spear.

The 6 maces will fight the other crossbow, the axe, and then the three spears.

With two collateral hits with cats It's not even certain we'll loose one battle. So why send strength 6 or 6.6 HAs to attack strength 8 or 8.4 spears when every other unit would attack with odds?

[sooooo]

Don't think we should waste HAs. I normally give my cats CR, but I'll bow to your generalling Sunrise. I'd send the maces in first. On instinct I'd send 2 cats in, maybe even 3.

[regoarrarr]

You are correct there are no pikes in the city. I'll have him re-sim

[sunrise089]

Don't think we should waste HAs. I normally give my cats CR, but I'll bow to your generalling Sunrise. I'd send the maces in first. On instinct I'd send 2 cats in, maybe even 3.

I do as well sometimes. Against weak defenders who the cats can actually have decent odds against, or against a city with a few defensive units and mostly mounted units and other cats inside it can make sense. But with 8 defenders all getting bonuses, and with our stack having primarily mounted units, I think it's important to weaken the spears.

[regoarrarr]

So am I correct in my thinking of how collateral works is that once we send in one cat, all the units (besides the unit that defends against the cat) will be weakened 10%? So the spears will be 3.6, the maces 7.2, etc? And then a 2nd cat would take them to 3.2, 6.4, etc?

[sunrise089]

I don't know the formula at all. My sense is that the collateral bonus like doubles the amount of collateral per attack, but I really have no idea.

[regoarrarr]

I meant just a straight cat attack - w/o the promotion.

[Zeviz]

Another reason to put collateral instead of CR on suicide cats is that we don't want them to damage crossbow so badly that spears start defending first against knights. (Unless they damage it so much that it stops being a threat to maces.)

[ruff_hi]

from reading this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615, sure it is old but it sounds about right ... might have changed a bit in the patches, expansions but I don't think so), collateral damage is based on attack str v defend str (with no bonuses except barrage)

Barrage I +20%
Barrage II +30%
Barrage III +50%

So, a cat with Barrage I is str 6 v (say) longbow ... dig out the damage calculator and work out the collateral damage.

The battle order is ...
A) Cat damages 1 unit eligible for collateral damage (unit chosen at random, selected defender not eligible)
repeat for other 4 rounds of collateral
B) fight as per normal against defender

Note: Treb at Str 4 with Barrage I is 4 +20% rounded down ... ie 4. So Barrage I is pointless for a Treb.

See also here - http://home.comcast.net/~proc/civ4/combat.htm
and here http://home.comcast.net/~proc/civ4/combat_calc.htm

[Swiss Pauli]

I think sunrise has it spot on: we're not facing an AI who generally has an über-defender or two then a load of cannon fodder (only the axe falls into that category here), so we don't need CR cats to give the best chance taking down the top defender a notch or two. What we need is collateral against the spears to be able to get our Knights against the CBs/Mace.

I think I'd go for 4 bombard cats, see how much collateral 2 cats inflict then decide what to do with the final cat - bombard if we can afford to save it for the future, collateral if we need to inflict more damage at Jericho.

utterly ninja'd whilst I typed but what the hey!

[Sullla]

So Templars have added a few more units to Jericho:

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/8914/temp1.jpg

They built a crossbow this turn, upgraded a spear to a pike, and pulled a second maceman out of somewhere. sunrise, any thoughts on how this changes the tactical situation? I'm pretty sure we can still win, but it may alter our decision on keeping vs. razing.

For the record, I'm still in favor of keeping Jericho if it is at all possible to do so.

[sunrise089]

We'll see how strong their units are after 2 cats attack I guess. The main change this might require is attacking with three cats rather than two.

With three cats attacking, I think we should attack with knights first. I imagine one will die to the pike, but the other two should kill the city defender crossbow and the fortified mace. Our maces will then be in good shape against the second crossbow, second mace, horse archer, axe, and 2 spears.

That's all just a sketch though...we'll take the battle slow and make decisions as they come up.

One possibility - since the southern Templar stack didn't move it might not be totally insane to attack over two turns. If, for instance, our maces do well but a pair of spears are left alive we may consider waiting a turn rather than wasting 2-3 horse archers taking out the last spears.

[Strow]

I will second that if its possible keep that city and the iron it has under it.

[Dreylin]

The central force is also marooned on its hill, so wouldn't be able to get back to defend on the second turn.

Based on Sullla'a estimate of 40-50K in their reserve, the Mace that arrived this turn is ~25% of that so there aren't many more units out there that can arrive to help.

[sunrise089]

Ok, I don't mind the time...I'm going to worldbuild a test and try out some combinations. I'll post my results soon.

[regoarrarr]

@sunrise - can you post your save so we can all try some stuff?

[sunrise089]

Ok, some results.

I created a wordbuilder file with our stack and the Templar units properly promoted. The Templar city has 20% culture and all of the units have 25% fortification, so the top defender is a tiny bit underpowered and the new units are a little overpowered.

First, let's just put city raider on every cat and attack with all of them. Result - 7 dead cats, no other losses :)

Second, let's try suiciding every cat and using the collareral promo. Result - 7 dead cats, but not only no other losses, but no battle below 99% :)

Trying the same thing but with attacking with three cats and bombarding with the rest. Result - 3 dead cats, one dead mace at 96% odds.

Attacking with only two cats - 2 dead cats, 1 dead knight, but odds were a lot worse (several battles in the 55-75% range).

Conclusion - Other than deliberately trying to loose, in my sim I can't really create a scenario where we loose more than four units. BUT if we want to remove RNG craziness we can always suicide greater number of cats and be very confident of not loosing our other units.

[sooooo]

Well. That's pretty convincing. I guess we bombard with 4 cats and suicide 3. Nice work!

Could you either post the save or run through the battles in more detail assuming 3 cats suicide? I'd be interested as to what order you attack and which units defend.

[sunrise089]

The save is posted, but generally I found you have to attack with maces first. I kept seeing knight versus pike battles at 30-45% odds versus mace versus crossbow battles at 50-70% odds. Once the first crossbow was attacked it was generally smooth (80%+) sailing for the other maces.

[regoarrarr]

A few things that are different from the save vs. the real game:

* I believe I saw that the pike does not have the 25% fortify bonus, which makes sense if it was just upgraded this turn, right?

* The city defense percentages don't line up. If we only bombard with 4 cats, we'll be at 10% bonus still

So, in the test save, I bombarded with 1 cat (dropped it to 12% - close enough), then attacked with 3 CR cats.

At that point I had knight at 51.2% vs. a 4.4/6 pike (though that would be higher odds because he shouldn't have the 25% fortify he has in the test save) and the C2 mace at 45.9% vs. a 4.9 Xbow (the one w/o CG).

At that point, I agree with sunrise that you have to go with the mace, because even if the knight beats the pike, the xbow will not defend against anything but a mace, so you're still going to have to take that 45.9% battle.

Seems like CR on the cats is the way to go - the difference between barrage and not was only 1-2HP per unit - vs/ an 8.2% chance of retreating with barrage and a 19.8% if it's CR1

[regoarrarr]

A few things that are different from the save vs. the real game:

* I believe I saw that the pike does not have the 25% fortify bonus, which makes sense if it was just upgraded this turn, right?

* The city defense percentages don't line up. If we only bombard with 4 cats, we'll be at 10% bonus still

So, in the test save, I bombarded with 1 cat (dropped it to 12% - close enough), then attacked with 3 CR cats.

At that point I had knight at 51.2% vs. a 4.4/6 pike (though that would be higher odds because he shouldn't have the 25% fortify he has in the test save) and the C2 mace at 45.9% vs. a 4.9 Xbow (the one w/o CG).

At that point, I agree with sunrise that you have to go with the mace, because even if the knight beats the pike, the xbow will not defend against anything but a mace, so you're still going to have to take that 45.9% battle.

Seems like CR on the cats is the way to go - the difference between barrage and not was only 1-2HP per unit - vs/ an 8.2% chance of retreating with barrage and a 19.8% if it's CR1

[regoarrarr]

So I'm getting a little worried about our ability to hold the city.

In the sims I was running - I had very few if any defense units (i.e. maces) available to secure the city. We can move in the (injured) knights and HAs but will that be enough to hold the city against any kind of counterattack?

[Dreylin]

Well I think that we're expecting them to have (at most) 3-4 units in reserve. We know that one is the offending Mace and the rest may be spread across Templars territory. Since they haven't moves the "harassing" stack off that hill, they wouldn't be able to get back to the city so I'm starting to agree with whomever suggested we take it slow over and attack over two turns. Any additional units they add to the city would not get fortification bonuses, and would also be vulnerable to any CR promos we have added.

Jericho finished a Crossbow this turn, what units would they be able to whip out next turn?

[Swiss Pauli]

Jericho finished a Crossbow this turn, what units would they be able to whip out next turn?

None: they're in serfdom :dizzy:

[Dreylin]

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten we were making fun of them for that earlier in the week. :)

[sunrise089]

Actually, we really shouldn't have protested the mace. The mace will have good odds attacking whatever unit we sit in the city, whereas we'd have good odds against in post-catapult attacks. Sorry for not being quicker to clarify that.

[Sullla]

I know... I was going to post something to that effect, but Apolyton's forums have been extremely unreliable the last 12 hours. (There's a reason why I prefer CivFanatics, let's just leave it at that.)

Anyway, it's also the principle of the thing. Once we all agree on rules for the turn order, Templars shouldn't get to violate them just because they are sloppy and disorganized. We keep making excuses for this team, when the reality is that they lied to us, broke their agreements, declared war, and then knowingly violated the turn order rules. At some point you have to draw the line.

I was looking forward to chatting online during the Joshua attack this morning, but now it seems that we're on indefinite hold. :(

[sunrise089]

For what it's worth I'll be traveling via RV with some friends to an amusement park in Ohio as of 7:00am EST tomorrow. If the turn isn't reloaded and ticked over by then I'll just post some detailed instructions about how I'd handle things. It will be a pity though, I wanted to get to kill some units.

[T-hawk]

For what it's worth I'll be traveling via RV with some friends to an amusement park in Ohio as of 7:00am EST tomorrow.

Ooh, Cedar Point? I'm heading there last week of June. Millennium's still the best coaster in the world...

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Actually, we really shouldn't have protested the mace. The mace will have good odds attacking whatever unit we sit in the city, whereas we'd have good odds against in post-catapult attacks.
I understand your reasoning, but I think we shouldn't mix in-game and meta-game tactics, i.e. only protest against rule violations if it suits us in-game and let it pass otherwise. That mace shouldn't be in the city according to the rules, and if we won't be able to hold the city because of the reload, then this was a strategic mistake/failed gambit on our part because we didn't anticipate the mace near the city, and we should accept that. Not protesting against a rule violation because we gain an advantage in-game sounds exploitative to me, and is something Realms Beyond of all teams shouldn't do.

Just my .02g,

-Kylearan

[sunrise089]

@Kylearan - Oh, we can certainly hold the city assuming the RNG isn't unkind, but in realpolitik terms I'd rather have a dead Templar mace than a dead RB horse archer.

I take your point about consistency though, the reload or unit move will be fine if Templars can hurry up and just respond.

[Zeviz]

Hi,


I understand your reasoning, but I think we shouldn't mix in-game and meta-game tactics, i.e. only protest against rule violations if it suits us in-game and let it pass otherwise. That mace shouldn't be in the city according to the rules, and if we won't be able to hold the city because of the reload, then this was a strategic mistake/failed gambit on our part because we didn't anticipate the mace near the city, and we should accept that. Not protesting against a rule violation because we gain an advantage in-game sounds exploitative to me, and is something Realms Beyond of all teams shouldn't do.

Just my .02g,

-Kylearan
I agree that we should have filed a formal complaint. However, if Templar move was a mistake, forcing them to keep it seems like a good enough punishment. Otherwise, they are benefiting from illegal move. (Move mace on time - mace dies. Move mace late - you get a chance to move it back.) So filing a complaint and saying that "as a punishment we'll kill your mace" sounds like a good compromise to me. :)

PS How many hours from now will the attack happen?

[Swiss Pauli]

Just to clear this up: we did lodge a protest in the disputes thread http://apolyton.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5610441&postcount=177

That we asked the referee to play advantage to us isn't inconsistent with the rules. The referee could pull the game back to an earlier autosave as his judgement is binding, but that also opens another can of worms: i.e. we have to trust that Templars don't move unseen units illegally right after they've just made a visible illegal move.

[sunrise089]

@Zevis - If it isn't right when the turn timer ticks over (I do have dinner plans) than I'll post the time.

[Sullla]

Alright, well since Templars and Imperio will never, ever end their turns early it looks like we're going to start the new turn sometime around 9-10pm EST (in the very early hours of the morning GMT). I'll see if I can hang around these forums when we get ready to start the turn. If there's a chat room or voice chat place where we can set up, that might work too.

Only 12 hours late is about par for the course with this Demogame. :p

[sooooo]

We should probably sim the battle with the extra mace. We may have to consider sacrificing 4 catapults. Even delaying the attack for a turn should be considered.

[ruff_hi]

My view re our 7 cats ...

Bombarding Cats
reduces the ability of all defenders to defend by 4%
survives the action at full strength
doesn't gain any XPs

Suicide Cats
reduces the ability of 6 defenders to defend by approx 10%
might damage primary defender
most likely dies
can gain XPs

I am leaning towards suiciding at least 3 cats (with barrage promotion) and bombing the rest. Or spreading the attack over 2 turns.

[Dreylin]

The biggest problem I see with waiting a second turn is how Imperio react, since Templars seem to be stuck in neutral and at max could get a couple more units to defend. Last I checked their stack had not moved, but I think the longer we spend at Jericho the more we open ourselves to a prospective counter-attack at Cape Town.

[kjara]

@sullla Can find/create an irc room somewhere perhaps for chatting?

Edit: e.g. something like this http://webchat.xs4all.nl/index.php has browser-based connecting, so no software for people to dl, I'm pretty sure if we created a room with some random name, it would be secure enough.

[sunrise089]

If you want to download TeamSpeak, for free, my clan's server ID is 64.237.38.194:9535

Just log in as Anonymous but choose a nickname.

I can log into a chat room as well, but it's easier to talk. Others can at least listen in and you can also right-click to text.

[Kodii]

sunrise, are you planning to begin right when the clock ticks over? (~3.5 hours from now)

[sooooo]

Right, it sounds a bit weird but I've had success with:

Send in 4 city raider cats. Two of them did no damage to their macemen defenders, the other two both wounded macemen to 4-5 health out of 8. All died, but the last two did have 21% withdraw odds. If you only send in 3 cats then the first knight only has 51% against the pike. The fourth gives you 71%.

Then all 3 knights. The first knight had 71% odds on the single pike and won. The second kills a spearman at 88%. Then, importantly, the third one fights a crossbow and easily wins (94%)

Then send in a horse archer against the last spearman. Mine withdrew, but had 41% odds to win. Spear wounded to 1.1/4. Now a crossbow defends against a horse archer! The second horse archer loses to the crossbow but fatally injures it.

Once they have no good crossbows, we send in 3 macemen (all won at >85% odds) and 3 horse archers (all won easily). The last battle is won by our pikeman and we took the city.

We occupy the city with 3 full-health macemen and all of the mounted units that survived. We have 2 horse archers left to cut supply lines.

This is only a loss of 4 cats and 1 horse archer, though I was lucky not to lose another HA and the first knight was only 70%.

----

Obviously I won a lot of 80-90% battles, but I think the key is to send in mounted troops, lose 1 or two but kill the 2 crossbows while doing so. They defended higher than macemen because the macemen were injured by the catapults and also one of the crossbows has CD1.

Once the mounted troops have killed or injured the crossbows, send in the macemen to kill the 3 wounded macemen. Then the horse archers to kill the axe and other injured troops.

[ruff_hi]

city raider cats? I would think that the +20% collateral damage (Barrage I) is more important that increasing the odds of the cats surviving.

[sooooo]

Barrage is a very minimal increase to the amount of collateral they do. Regoarrarr did some investigating further up the thread.

It's not the odds of the cats surviving that is important, it's the wounding of the macemen (who defend against the cats) enough to become worse defenders than crossbows when mounted units attack. The mounted units kill the crossbows after they have killed/wounded the pike and the spears, leaving our str 8 city raider macemen to kill all 3 of the wounded (4-6 health) macemen and the axe.

[sunrise089]

Ok, that sounds fine Sooooo. I leaned towards sending in 4 cats myself, though I still think the collateral promo is better I take your point about keeping maces healthy.

[sooooo]

I think another advantage of the knights before maces strategy is that I had 3 fully healthy macemen to move in and defend the city which should be more than enough to hold it. I probably had more wounded (and dead) mounted units, but they can make it inside the city (or retreat) on the same turn. I predict we will lose all 4 cats, 0-1 knights, and 1-3 HAs.

[regoarrarr]

Barrage vs. no barrage gains us about 1-2 HP. A pike hit by a no barrage cat was 5.5/6, vs. 5.4/6 for one with barrage 1.

I am leaning towards suiciding at least 4, if not 5, 6 or 7 cats. I think it is most important that we minimize loss of our maces and knights, even at the point of sacrificing cats.

[sooooo]

The problem is that we need cats to take on the southern Templar stack (either if they advance on pink dot or the head north to jericho). Leaving 3 catapults will just about be OK. Leaving no catapults leaves us vulnerable. Remember that we have mounted reserves at Upper Burgundy (1 knight, 2 chariots and I think 2 HAs). We have no reserves of catapults.

[kjara]

@so, how do the odds change if you do 5 cr cats rather than 4? I guess the concern is that 2 cats won't be enough for def, but can we put cape town on building cats for the next few turns as well(and get them to jericho in what, 2 or 3 turns) or even start down 1-2 of the capetown cats with a defender now and build to replace them.

I have to agree that keeping a few maces for def is good, but do we also want to keep one healthy knight for def? What if we start with 2 knights and start throwing the ha's in after the knights take down/out the pike and one spear? Edit: Would follow so's plan for this, so keep throwing ha's till the xbows are eliminated or fatally hurt, then start with the maces.

[sooooo]

We'll have to play it by ear because the pikeman in the sim has a +25% fortify bonus which he does not actually have in the game. But the collateral to the pike is not the same every time, it relies on luck.

It's hard to sim 5 vs 4 cats. With 5 cats I still had 70% on the pike with the first knight, but that's because I left the defences at 20% (in reality they are 18%, the above was fought at 12% when they should be at 14% - complicated by the fact that the sim doesn't have walls and it's a pain to set them up and have them at the right defence).

Strangely it works out worse to hit with 5 cats. 4 cats is just enough to make the CD crossbow better defenders than macemen. So the 5th cat hits the crossbow.

The knight goes in and loses to the pike at 70%. We haven't got enough macemen to run through the other troops and kill the pike and still occupy the city with a healthy mace, so there is no avoiding a knight vs pike matchup.

However, the problem is that because the crossbow was wounded slightly below the mace by the fifth catapult, the remaining mounted units can only strike against spears and then macemen, and never fight a crossbow. The macemen still have 50-60% odds on the remaining 2 crossbows (both at 3.5/6 health).

If we hit with 5 cats instead of 4 we (a) lose another cat and (b) stop the ability of our mounted units to kill crossbows, exposing our macemen to 50-65% battles.


But all of this will be slightly different in the game because of the RNG.

I would say do this: bombard with 2 cats. Send in CR cats until a crossbow is the top defender, then stop. Hopefully the knight should have good (>70% odds) on the pike. Bombard with the remaining cat if there is one. Or we could bombard with all 3 cats first and rely on injuring the maces enough. Probably the first option is better.

Send in the knights and then HAs until all the pikes, spears and crossbows die or are fatally wounded (we take some losses). Send in the macemen to kill the wounded maces, spears and the axeman.

[sooooo]

I have to agree that keeping a few maces for def is good, but do we also want to keep one healthy knight for def?

Only the first knight (up against the pike) should either die or get seriously injured. The second and third knight have good odds and shouldn't take much damage. They can defend too because they can move into the city on the same turn as they kill someone.

[sooooo]

Unfortunately I cannot stay awake and watch the battle unfold. I'll check it out in the morning (my birthday!) and see the presents General Sunrise will provide.

P.S: When asked, select "Taj Mahal" at Bluebell Woods :)
P.P.S: Watch out for an Imperio log in as the timer runs down.

[Zeviz]

...
Send in the knights and then HAs until all the pikes, spears and crossbows die or are fatally wounded (we take some losses). Send in the macemen to kill the wounded maces, spears and the axeman.
Do spears always defend ahead of the unpromoted crossbow? Because if they don't we can save some HAs by switching to maces earler. Even if we have fewer maces left for defence, we don't expect an immediate massive counterattack, and saving a couple HAs sounds good.

Also, using fewer cats to bombard means that CR cats will cause less damage to maces, so maybe we should bombard with all 3 cats first.

[sunrise089]

FYI, I'm heading for dinner in about 20 minutes. As soon as I'm back I'll log in and start attacking based on Soooo's suggestions. I'll stop attacking and make a post if topics for discussion come up. I'll also be on my clan's TeamSpeak server AND in any chat room that someone creates and links to here.

[kjara]

I've created(and am idling in) a room named #RB-Joshua behind http://webchat.xs4all.nl/index.php. All you need to do is choose a username, drop the chatchannel down to other, then type in RB-Joshua after the #.

[Strow]

Im in the chat room waiting to hear. The forum has been running poorly tonight so hopefully if its down we can hear results chat in there.

[sooooo]

Does anyone have a copy of the chatroom log? I'd love to hear how it happened or failing that a report from sunrise.

[dsplaisted]

Does anyone have a copy of the chatroom log? I'd love to hear how it happened or failing that a report from sunrise.

Ask and you shall receive...

[19:21] *** dsplaisted [4b5cd5cb@webchat.xs4all.nl] has joined #rb-joshua
[19:21] *** dsplaisted Strow @Kjara
[19:22] *** dsplaisted changed the topic to: Joshua fit the battle of Jericho!
[19:22] &lt;Kjara> eheh
[19:23] &lt;dsplaisted&gt; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EipAzFBQ3pM&feature=related
[19:23] &lt;Kjara&gt; I have to agree with your post strow, the forum fails to connect at least 1/2 of the time
[19:25] &lt;Strow&gt; its amazing that RB player agreed to play at that site
[19:28] &lt;Kjara&gt; I wonder if its a primetime thing or something, usually I have no problems connecting, but us evening it seems to just choke and die
[19:29] &lt;Strow&gt; Don't know but it doesn't seem to run poorly at night.
[19:32] &lt;Strow&gt; If anyone sees anything in the forum pass it on
[19:33] &lt;Kjara&gt; Your post is the latest one in any thread, so nothing yet.
[19:44] *** regoarrarr [41b90794@webchat.xs4all.nl] has joined #RB-Joshua
[19:44] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; hello?
[19:44] &lt;Strow&gt; hi
[19:45] &lt;Strow&gt; the forum running poorly for you too?
[19:45] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; so it looks like nobody has logged in yet?
[19:45] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; i just got in
[19:45] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; (to find this link)
[19:45] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; but it had been slow for awhile
[19:46] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; i just got back from a roller skating birthday party
[19:47] &lt;Strow&gt; Ya we are waiting for sunrise to get back from dinner I guess. The forum just isn't working up to par so we can here
[19:47] &lt;Strow&gt; "came here
[19:48] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; well unfortunately it's looking like i too will miss this
[19:48] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; as i'm awful tired
[19:49] &lt;Strow&gt; Ya Its getting to the point where who knows when this will happen and if the game is even up right now
[19:51] &lt;Kjara&gt; Its too bad we paused it, would have been able to play it at a decent time otherwise, ah well
[19:53] &lt;Strow&gt; had too we set up the rules and we needed to point out there where broken.
[19:56] *** Sullla [4851ffa1@webchat.xs4all.nl] has joined #RB-Joshua
[19:57] &lt;Kjara&gt; Oh i know, just commenting that would have been nice
[19:57] &lt;Sullla&gt; hi all, nice to join you here
[19:57] &lt;Kjara&gt; howdy
[19:57] &lt;Strow&gt; This is true but I feel Sunrise will get the job done when he is back and ready to go
[19:58] &lt;Sullla&gt; I'm on sunrise's voice chat server, so I can direct him here when he gets back
[19:58] &lt;Strow&gt; cool the MP voice set up? I hear good things about it
[19:59] &lt;Sullla&gt; works great for Multiplayer, including Civ MP
[20:00] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; so sullla how do we get that
[20:00] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; i think i have the teamspeak client st up
[20:00] &lt;Strow&gt; I believe its free.
[20:00] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; still from our "axis vs. allies" game
[20:00] &lt;Strow&gt; I just don't have a mic to listen in.
[20:02] &lt;Sullla&gt; first download the Teamspeak application if you don't already have it
[20:02] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; i went to 64.237.38.194:9535 - am i in the right place? I'm hearing someone talking about metal and zero forests chopped
[20:02] &lt;Sullla&gt; that is indeed the right IP
[20:02] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; i do see your and sunrise's names
[20:03] &lt;Sullla&gt; I have no idea if my microphone with work, as I've never used it with this laptop before
[20:03] &lt;Sullla&gt; but I can listen in
[20:04] &lt;Strow&gt; if sunrise uses the teamspeak can you post updates on this for us?
[20:04] &lt;Sullla&gt; yeah
[20:04] &lt;Strow&gt; thanks
[20:04] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; how do i get on to your channel?
[20:04] &lt;Sullla&gt; double-click the room we are in
[20:05] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; different password?
[20:06] &lt;Strow&gt; was it at all possible to time bananas to make a move on one of the templars back line cities?
[20:08] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; okay i'm in and i think sunrise is in too?
[20:08] &lt;Sullla&gt; yes, can you hear sunrise?
[20:08] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; no
[20:08] &lt;Sullla&gt; I can't either
[20:09] &lt;Strow&gt; laugh
[20:09] *** User468 [~User@c-69-143-203-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #RB-Joshua
[20:09] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; shoot my mic is not working
[20:09] *** User468 [~User@c-69-143-203-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
[20:09] *** sunrise [~sunrise@c-69-143-203-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #RB-Joshua
[20:09] &lt;sunrise&gt; hi
[20:09] &lt;Strow&gt; welcome
[20:09] &lt;Kjara&gt; howdy
[20:10] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; my mic is not working grr
[20:10] &lt;sunrise&gt; no problem, i'll see text here
[20:10] &lt;sunrise&gt; and I'll still talk so you can listen
[20:10] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; and the templars have 40 maces now
[20:10] &lt;Strow&gt; HA
[20:11] &lt;Strow&gt; anyone else wondering why PAL asked Krill to check out there private forum
[20:11] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; our spy was captured
[20:11] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; imperio galley is still there
[20:11] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; hasn't moved
[20:12] &lt;Strow&gt; that was bound to happen with our spy
[20:12] &lt;Kjara&gt; Bad timing on the spy, but yeh bound to happen
[20:12] &lt;Kjara&gt; could have been worse
[20:12] &lt;sunrise&gt; ok, in game
[20:12] &lt;Strow&gt; do they know it was our spy
[20:12] &lt;Strow&gt; ?
[20:12] &lt;sunrise&gt; yeah, spy died, no other units moved
[20:13] &lt;Strow&gt; oh well.
[20:13] &lt;sunrise&gt; "spy stumbled upon"
[20:13] &lt;sunrise&gt; does that mean they know about it?
[20:13] &lt;Kjara&gt; Is there different messages for us?
[20:13] &lt;Strow&gt; I believe it does not mean they know but I don't use spy's all that much
[20:13] &lt;sunrise&gt; I'm not sure
[20:13] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; i think it will tell imperio that a RB spy was caught operating near &lt;city&gt;
[20:13] &lt;Sullla&gt; we can double-check that tomorrow
[20:13] &lt;sunrise&gt; The text says "An Ethopian Nikita has been stumped upon near the city of...."
[20:14] &lt;Strow&gt; Ya then they will know most likely.
[20:14] &lt;sunrise&gt; ok, so I'm going to start by combarding with three cats
[20:14] &lt;Strow&gt; go get em!
[20:15] &lt;sunrise&gt; ok, defenses down to 14%
[20:15] &lt;Strow&gt; not bad, you going city raider on the rest of the cats?
[20:15] &lt;sunrise&gt; 26.4% on the pike with a knight
[20:16] &lt;sunrise&gt; 17% with a mace
[20:17] &lt;sunrise&gt; sneding in city raider cats now
[20:18] &lt;sunrise&gt; heh....crossbow is top defender after 1 cat
[20:18] &lt;Strow&gt; nice
[20:18] &lt;sunrise&gt; I still think I should attack with three though
[20:18] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; what did the cat weaken its defender to?
[20:19] &lt;Strow&gt; I agree it saves more of our guys in the long run
[20:19] &lt;sunrise&gt; escellent
[20:19] &lt;Strow&gt; I feel once you get a % your happy with go for it
[20:19] &lt;sunrise&gt; 3 dead cats, crossbow is top defender to a cat
[20:20] &lt;sunrise&gt; AND the kinhgt has 70% vs the Pike
[20:20] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; what are the healths on the top defenders?
[20:20] &lt;Sullla&gt; perfect
[20:20] &lt;Kjara&gt; Nice
[20:20] &lt;Strow&gt; lets hope the RNG doesn't screw us now.
[20:20] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; wait
[20:20] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; can we bombard with one more cat?
[20:20] &lt;sunrise&gt; knight wins
[20:20] &lt;sunrise&gt; yes, forgot
[20:20] &lt;Strow&gt; NICE
[20:20] &lt;Sullla&gt;
[20:20] &lt;sunrise&gt; i guess I'll bomb with the 4th
[20:20] &lt;Strow&gt; knight over pike?
[20:20] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; yes that was the battle
[20:21] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; unless we want to move it into the city
[20:21] &lt;Strow&gt; sweet. Save the cat to move into the city incase there is a stack waiting for us?
[20:21] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; to possibly attack out?
[20:21] &lt;sunrise&gt; 71.7% with the next knight on a spear
[20:21] &lt;sunrise&gt; no, i bonbarded with the cat
[20:21] &lt;sunrise&gt; they cant have enough in reserve to threaten us I dont think
[20:21] &lt;Kjara&gt; should be ok
[20:21] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; what is left in the city?
[20:22] &lt;Strow&gt; lets hope not, I have a bad feeling PAL or IMperio might gift them units
[20:22] &lt;sunrise&gt; 2nd kinght lives
[20:22] &lt;sunrise&gt; GG born in A1
[20:22] &lt;Sullla&gt;
[20:22] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; woo
[20:22] &lt;sunrise&gt; 88% with third knight on the crossbow
[20:22] &lt;Strow&gt; super medic is what everyone wanted right?
[20:23] &lt;sunrise&gt; knight looses to crossbow
[20:23] &lt;Kjara&gt; I think most people agreed on that yeh
[20:23] &lt;Sullla&gt; yes, but we have a whole turn to discuss it further
[20:23] &lt;sunrise&gt; so the RNG is about even with us
[20:23] &lt;Strow&gt; Yikes
[20:23] &lt;Kjara&gt; what % did it get it down to?
[20:23] &lt;sunrise&gt; ok, 83% with the mace on a wounded crossbow
[20:23] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; so the HAs now?
[20:23] &lt;sunrise&gt; 45% with our HA
[20:23] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; ok
[20:24] &lt;sunrise&gt; 83% mace wins
[20:24] &lt;Sullla&gt;
[20:24] &lt;Strow&gt; very good.
[20:24] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; so there are 2 maces, a HA, an axe and a xbow left?
[20:24] &lt;sunrise&gt; 2nd mace is 84%, attacking
[20:24] &lt;sunrise&gt; left:
[20:24] &lt;sunrise&gt; 3 maces, axe, spear, crossbow, HA
[20:24] &lt;sunrise&gt; 2nd mace wins
[20:24] &lt;Sullla&gt; reat
[20:25] &lt;Sullla&gt; great
[20:25] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; health on the defenders?
[20:25] &lt;sunrise&gt; ok, time for a question
[20:25] &lt;sunrise&gt; we've attacked with our combat II maces
[20:25] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; i'd say any time we can attack with a HA with good odds we do it
[20:25] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; or anything but a mace - to leave full strength maces able to move into the city
[20:25] &lt;sunrise&gt; remaining maces have one promo, and the top defender is an 83% battle with a combat I mace
[20:25] &lt;Kjara&gt; or do we want to try to save ha's for a run on constanople?
[20:25] &lt;sunrise&gt; So do we want to make a city raider mace?
[20:25] &lt;Kjara&gt; have to figure the mace came from there
[20:26] &lt;sunrise&gt; it will have better odds, right? but it also wont defend as well
[20:26] &lt;Kjara&gt; have to remember that city raider reduces them rather than bumping us
[20:26] &lt;Strow&gt; It will face at worst a combat one mace once we take the city right?
[20:26] &lt;Kjara&gt; so, not sure how that factors in with them being hurt and having defensive bonuses
[20:26] &lt;Strow&gt; and won't defend until two turns from now
[20:27] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; yeah i say make it a city raider
[20:27] &lt;sunrise&gt; 86% with a city raider
[20:27] &lt;sunrise&gt; as sullla and I discussed, city raider isnt a good defender, but an awesome rifle upgrade down the road
[20:27] &lt;sunrise&gt; CR mace wins
[20:27] &lt;Strow&gt; oh hell ya
[20:28] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; so 2 maces, axe, spear, xbow and a HA left
[20:28] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; and what do we have?
[20:28] &lt;Strow&gt; I believe grey fox said city raider rifle pwns.
[20:28] &lt;sunrise&gt; 67% with an HA attack if we want it
[20:28] &lt;Strow&gt; thats a close call
[20:28] &lt;Strow&gt; against a spear?
[20:28] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; what is the mace attacking against?
[20:28] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; and what is the HA?
[20:29] &lt;sunrise&gt; HA and mace are attacking a mace
[20:29] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; here's another question
[20:29] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; do we just NOT promote
[20:29] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; so we can promote after, for healing?
[20:30] &lt;sunrise&gt; naw...we'll get a promo anyeways
[20:30] &lt;sunrise&gt; and the one mover will sit in the forest behind the city
[20:30] &lt;Strow&gt; and they will be outta the city for one turn so any counter attack coming next turn if any will be what ever we can move into the city
[20:31] &lt;sunrise&gt; right
[20:31] &lt;sunrise&gt; ok, 89% with our second CR Mace
[20:31] &lt;sunrise&gt; wins
[20:31] &lt;Sullla&gt; alright
[20:31] &lt;Strow&gt; sounds good then save our last mace to protect for a turn right?
[20:31] &lt;sunrise&gt; 68% with a ha on a spear
[20:32] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; i think we still have 2 maces
[20:32] &lt;sunrise&gt; 2 healthy maces left
[20:32] &lt;Strow&gt; see what the booze does to you
[20:32] &lt;Kjara&gt; would the mace hit the spear as well?
[20:32] &lt;sunrise&gt; 2 star HA wins
[20:32] &lt;Kjara&gt; hah ok
[20:32] &lt;Kjara&gt; that works too
[20:32] &lt;sunrise&gt; no, mace would have fought axe
[20:32] &lt;Strow&gt; thats great
[20:32] &lt;Kjara&gt; ahh ok
[20:33] &lt;sunrise&gt; 67% against axe with combat 1 HA
[20:33] &lt;sunrise&gt; wins
[20:33] &lt;Strow&gt; do we have a medic ready to go into that city or near enought for it to heal our troops.
[20:33] &lt;Strow&gt; WOOOT
[20:33] &lt;sunrise&gt; 87% vs enemy HA
[20:33] &lt;Kjara&gt; we have had what, 1 loss at 90%?
[20:33] &lt;Sullla&gt; it's all gravy from here
[20:34] &lt;sunrise&gt; we dont have a promo this turn for medic, but we will next turn
[20:34] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; here's a little somethin for ya
[20:34] &lt;Kjara&gt; yeh, worst case we have one more unlucky loss really
[20:34] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; http://www.cts.edu/ImageLibrary/Images/Numbers_Joshua/tisjeric.jpg
[20:34] &lt;sunrise&gt; HA looses at 87%
[20:34] &lt;Strow&gt; Right so in two turns it will be ready?
[20:34] &lt;Strow&gt; damn
[20:34] &lt;Kjara&gt; well, the way the odds had went, that was to be expected
[20:34] &lt;sunrise&gt; HA wins 99% vs crossboe
[20:34] &lt;sunrise&gt; next battle will take the city
[20:34] &lt;sunrise&gt; I think we're keeping it
[20:35] &lt;Strow&gt; its all over but the crying
[20:35] &lt;Strow&gt; great finally iron!
[20:35] &lt;Kjara&gt; We could move in 2 knights(at what %'s?), 2 maces, and how many has?
[20:35] &lt;sunrise&gt; city captured
[20:35] &lt;Strow&gt; can anyone say ormos and cannons?
[20:35] &lt;Strow&gt; sure ya can
[20:35] &lt;Sullla&gt; excellent, mwa ha ha!
[20:35] &lt;Strow&gt; well done
[20:35] &lt;sunrise&gt; city roaded
[20:35] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; eggggscellent
[20:35] &lt;sunrise&gt; and one HA left over to cut a road
[20:36] &lt;Kjara&gt; vnice
[20:36] &lt;sunrise&gt; road cut
[20:36] &lt;Strow&gt; lets see what Herc has to say now.
[20:36] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; can we see into constantinople at all?
[20:36] &lt;sunrise&gt; no enemy units within range of our HA
[20:36] &lt;Strow&gt; well play and well carried out sunrise
[20:37] &lt;sunrise&gt; question
[20:37] &lt;sunrise&gt; we have several wounded knights and hAs
[20:37] &lt;sunrise&gt; do we want them 1 SE of Jericho?
[20:37] &lt;sunrise&gt; if so they can hit constantinople post-promos enxt turn
[20:37] &lt;sunrise&gt; otherwise no
[20:37] &lt;sunrise&gt; sulla make a good point
[20:37] &lt;Strow&gt; what is in constantinople?
[20:38] &lt;Kjara&gt; can't see it i assume?
[20:38] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; we don't know, i think?
[20:38] &lt;Kjara&gt; the mace likely came from it though
[20:38] &lt;Strow&gt; what is sullas point?
[20:38] &lt;Sullla&gt; we have a very good chance to capture Constantinople with a raid next turn (T150)
[20:38] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; his point was that we don't have to decide that now
[20:39] &lt;Sullla&gt; but we'll discuss it in the forums tomorrow
[20:39] &lt;Strow&gt; how many knights would we have and whats the cultural def. on that city?
[20:39] &lt;regoarrarr&gt; so we put all the units in jericho, and if we decide to, we can put the 2 movers on the tile 1 SE
[20:39] *** regoarrarr [41b90794@webchat.xs4all.nl] has quit ["http://webchat.xs4all.nl "]
[20:39] &lt;Sullla&gt; we have 2 knights, 4 HAs
[20:39] &lt;Sullla&gt; Constantinople has 40% cultural defense, I think
[20:39] &lt;Kjara&gt; its up to the 2nd or 3rd tier culture wise?
[20:39] &lt;Strow&gt; and they don't have many units in the back lines? How about the stack they have can it get back in time to defend?
[20:40] &lt;Sullla&gt; the key question is what's in there - if it's a single archer, we've got it
[20:40] *** sunrise655 [~sunrise@c-69-143-203-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #RB-Joshua
[20:40] &lt;sunrise655&gt; power surge
[20:40] &lt;Kjara&gt; our stack should be able to take up to 3 archers?
[20:40] &lt;sunrise655&gt; and i have a UPS
[20:40] &lt;Strow&gt; or can they hit our units if we move them the one se?
[20:40] &lt;sunrise655&gt; what are the frieken odds
[20:41] *** sunrise [~sunrise@c-69-143-203-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Broken pipe]
[20:42] *** sunrise [~sunrise@c-69-143-203-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #RB-Joshua
[20:43] &lt;sunrise&gt; ok, in the city we haveL
[20:43] &lt;sunrise&gt; strength 6, strength 4.6 knights
[20:43] *** sunrise655 [~sunrise@c-69-143-203-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
[20:43] &lt;sunrise&gt; full health maces, C1 and forest 1
[20:44] &lt;sunrise&gt; and HAs, 6, 6, 2,6, 1.0
[20:44] &lt;sunrise&gt; +1 strength 6 HA 1SE
[20:44] &lt;Strow&gt; if we move on constantinople can our units get hit by the stack or can the stack move back to protect there city?
[20:45] &lt;Strow&gt; If not lets go for it and raise the city
[20:46] &lt;Kjara&gt; I feel that its probably worth it. Since they sent a mace(which wasn't nearly enough to help hold the town) foward, it feels like they couldn't have much in constanople
[20:47] &lt;sunrise&gt; yes, i agree
[20:47] &lt;sunrise&gt; but we can post on the forumsa and discuss
[20:47] &lt;Kjara&gt; oh, agreed
[20:47] &lt;Kjara&gt; waiting for the forum to actually work for me
[20:47] &lt;sunrise&gt; Sullla or Sooo is going to play the rest of the turn
[20:47] &lt;Strow&gt; once the forum works
[20:47] &lt;sunrise&gt; the only other thing I did is assign the workboat to the second clam tile in the north
[20:48] &lt;Strow&gt; well done and nice work time for me to get some sleep its getting late on the east coast
[20:48] &lt;Kjara&gt; anyhow, wellplayed, looking good.
[20:49] &lt;dsplaisted&gt; yay
[20:49] * dsplaisted missed the battle but caught up now
[20:51] &lt;sunrise&gt; ok guys
[20:51] &lt;Sullla&gt; ok, that's about it for tonight
[20:51] &lt;sunrise&gt; turns out three of our maces that attacked suffered no damage s well
[20:51] &lt;Sullla&gt; much to discuss tomorrow, drink a beer and celebrate tonight!
[20:51] &lt;sunrise&gt; so we now hope Imperio moives in
[20:52] &lt;sunrise&gt; anyway guys, this was fun./...I'll stick aroundf longer next time when I dont have to drive 7 hours at 7:00am
[20:52] &lt;sunrise&gt; anyways, goodnight all, good victory
[20:52] *** sunrise [~sunrise@c-69-143-203-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
[20:53] &lt;Sullla&gt; I'm heading off too in a minute
[20:53] &lt;Sullla&gt; one quick stat for you
[20:54] &lt;Sullla&gt; we killed 66k worth of Templar units, and lost 31k doing it - while attacking into one of their core cities
[20:54] &lt;Sullla&gt; have a good night!
[20:56] *** Strow left #RB-Joshua []
[21:07] &lt;Kjara&gt; siege is generally just too good, wonder what it would take to balance the game so that it isn't worth throwing away siege like that with pretty much 0 odds, prob just reduceing the amount of collateral damage to some fraction of what it currently is might do it
[21:07] &lt;Kjara&gt; or rather than not worth it, not so 1 sided to do so
[21:08] &lt;Kjara&gt; also might make trebs used a bit more if cats weren't the non-city stack killers they are now
[21:10] &lt;Kjara&gt; ah well, g'night folks, im out too I think

[ruff_hi]

great plan sunrise and brilliantly executed.