Team Info and Contacts - Rabbits

[ruff_hi]

The Rabbits of Caerbannog

AdamTG02
Chuckman
Dale
Dave_Shack
fed1943
FeMme
GeoModder
Giwi
Kiwallabok
Lancer
Methos from CFC
Ms_Summer
Nugog (TL)
RobWorham (TL)
RP21
theViking
zed64
Zoid

Team Email : cuddly dotty killers atta gmail dotty com

Note: I have sent them a greetings email from our googlemail account.

[Swiss Pauli]

I want to contact them again along the lines of:

Hi Rabbits,

TeamRB wonders whether you're interested in discussions before we meet in-game? We're particularly concerned about the balance of power on your continent.

If you don't reply, we'll assume you're not interested in discussion, but we'd prefer to get a reply stating your position.

yours etc

We could make this more leading by talking about imbalance of power, but maybe that would be too much?

[sunrise089]

I think that's as leading as would be prudent if they consider communication before contact a faux-pas.

[Zeviz]

This text is good, but should we explicitly mention that long-term alliances are already being formed, but we'd like to at least talk to the teams we haven't met before committing? (This should show to them that this isn't just idle curiosity and that we are doing them a favor by initiating contact.)

[mostly-harmless]

I am strictly against contact before we meet in-game.
Rabbits will be well aware of PALs power, because they will see yellow borders all over the place.
We have a scouting mission under way already.
So I don't see the need to rush this.
We won't take action against PAL anytime soon and I doubt Rabbits and Banana will throw away theri plans and DOW PAL just because we hint on their power now.

Establishing in-game contact first seems to be more in-tune with the game. And don't forget what soooo said in the other thread, we can deal with PAL because we are awesome. ;-)

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

As mentioned by mh in the turnplayer thread, Rabbits seem to be throwing in the towel...

Originally posted by Zoid
Meh... Recent events has made this point rather moot for the Rabbits...

[mostly-harmless]

We could make the dreaded Amphibious-warrior-from-the-sea-captures-last-Rabbits-city-right-from-under-PALs-nose move.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

Actually, we'd be better off razing PAL's undefended backwater cities with our warrior of doom, but I don't see much chance of that happening...

[ruff_hi]

draft email - should get this off to them quickly.


Well Met Rabbits,

We have met in game and so I would like to say 'hello'. We have heard (in-game) that you are at war with PAL. We would be interested to gather information on your dealings with PAL as you have had longer and more detailed contacts with them.

Is there any thing else that you would like to discuss ... trade / comments / etc.

Cheers,

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[Dreylin]

Looks good to me, Ruff.

[Zeviz]

Looks good. Let's send it as soon as we can.

[Swiss Pauli]

I've sent the draft ruff had saved.

[sooooo]

Do the rabbits have anything to trade? I can't log in right now to check.

[sooooo]

OK, I logged in. Check it out: Rabbits don't have archery.

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/9081/rabbitsto9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

We could ship it to them. Thoughts?

[T-hawk]

I say definitely ship it. Zero cost to us, we have other trade bait if they somehow do come up with a potential trade. And anything that slows PAL will help us in the long run.

Of course, expect another round of biatching in the discussion forum that Rabbits is playing differently after the reload...

[ruff_hi]

are you kidding! Are these guys roll playing too - research mining and farming and that it is? If we flick them archery, there isn't a way for PAL to work that out is there?

[Zeviz]

If Rabbits mysteriously get Archery the turn they meet us, PAL might get suspicious. Especially if they have enough EP against them to see research.

[sooooo]

I am in favour of gifting archery to the rabbits. There's a chance PAL would find out, but I think the pros outweigh the cons.

[ruff_hi]

I, too, agree that we should flick Archery to rabbits.

[sunrise089]

I have mixed feelings. I definitely favor it if it will actually help the Rabbits, but I wonder if the war isn't already decided and this is merely a potential diplo faux pas with little upside.

I also have questions about the appropriateness of this whole series of events. Rabbits moving their unit differently resulting in contact and then a military tech trade seems shady to me.

EDIT: Since Krill says it's OK to have made contact this go round, I'm cool with the trade.

[sooooo]

OK, we have 3 votes for making the trade, 2 against. What do other team members think?

[Krill]

Don't worry about the appropriateness. I'm on it already. And go back and win the CCC sunrise, I'm suprised Met could spare you for the 2 minutes it took to write that post ;)

[sunrise089]

Don't worry about the appropriateness. I'm on it already. And go back and win the CCC sunrise, I'm suprised Met could spare you for the 2 minutes it took to write that post ;)

Third place oh great lurker. Lost by 6 points to the $&#^ Germans, we'll get them next time.

[mostly-harmless]

I think Rabbits are finished- Not sure it would be any help to them, if they get archery from us now.
We may as well ask them per email.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

We can always tell PAL that Rabbits asked for Archery to combat their barb problems ;)

And they are completely farked as far as I can see. Did they chase religions and fail to get any of them? Quite why they were going in this direction when they neighbour a team full of MP guys I don't know...

[Sullla]

I am in favor of sending Rabbits Archery, for what it's worth. PAL told us they needed horses to fight "barbs", then turned around and whipped a dozen War Chariots in order to destroy a neighbor. In light of that, they can't really complain too hard about us gifting a very inexpensive military tech to Rabbits.

In a larger sense, I'd REALLY like to know how much crack the Rabbits were smoking in this game. How could they ignore even the most basic military technologies when next to PAL?!?! :doitnow!: It's inconceivable. My ex-girlfriend who used to play on Chieftan had better sense than that.

Lord save us from the idiots on the other teams in this game. :rolleyes:

[regoarrarr]

I logged in last night and it looked like the trade (gift) of Archery went down. There was a message from Rabbits saying "Thanks! :-)". I told them good luck.

[Sullla]

Yes, Rabbits score went from 204 to 210 on CivStats, so they accepted our offer of Archery. We'll see how closely PAL has been paying attention to things, if they notice or not.

It's equally possible that either our team or Imperio could have gifted them Archery - but Imperio's general diplomatic inaction does make us the likely suspect. :cute:

[mostly-harmless]

Well, we get a big fat +4 "Our trade relations have been fair" on the foreign relationship screen. Hard to cover up.
Anyway, the archery against barb threat statement is solid.

mh

[Zeviz]

Should we ask them to research math and we'll pay them monarchy? (Presumably our next tech.)

[mostly-harmless]

I would like to from Rabbits just how many war chariots they were facing, to get an idea how many of our horses were "abused".

mh

[ruff_hi]

email from the Wabbits ...


Realms Beyond,

Thank you for the generous gift of technology. Being able to strike at our enemy accurately from a distance has greatly improved our morale. We also welcome the travels into our lands of any of your citizens, whether simply explorers or merchants who wish to engage in trade.

Our own situation is less than good. The nation known as PAL attacked us while we were in the middle of a negotiated agreement. Our survival will most likely depend on us finding a protector and benefactor. That benefactor would earn our loyalty and devotion toward the demise of PAL.

Sincerely,
Wabbits of Caerbannog

[mostly-harmless]

Hmmm, good to have a reply, but what can we realistically do to support the Rabbits, other than opening up trade routes (they don't have open borders with Imperio for some reasons).

As they are clearly role playing, this calls for a "Templar" style answer.
If possible we could try to get direction towards Banana land from them.

mh

[sunrise089]

I guess maybe Rabbits think that if RB or Imperio became an official ally we could broker some sort of peace with PAL. Surely they don't think we can land troops and defeat Egypt with horses in the classical era, right?

[T-hawk]

MH makes a really good point - we should ask for directions to contact Banana, which they should be happy to give. But yes, we can't really do much to support then other than gift techs, and I don't think there's any other relevant military tech to give.

[Zeviz]

Yes, let's ask for directions to Banana land while explaining that we are on the opposite end of the world, so can't send enough of a military force to pose a threat to PAL, but are open to any trade deals.

[Sullla]

Based on what our scout Sharon has revealed this turn, I think we should send an immediate email to Rabbits. PAL is vulnerable this turn:

http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Civ4/ADG-111.jpg

PAL has no units in Heliopolis, and Rabbits have a unit that can reach the city this turn! I think we should tell them that if they move their Great General chariot SW - SW - SW - W, then can raze Heliopolis - the PAL holy city! :D Doesn't Rabbits always get to move first in the initial 24 hours of their war? If we can get them to strike quickly, we can deal a HUGE blow to PAL's power!

Do you guys concur? We have to move FAST on this!

EDIT: Additional screenshot from the turn, to demonstrate the Heliopolis is empty:

http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Civ4/ADG-110.jpg

[mostly-harmless]

Scratches head ... the Rabbbits would have to defeat the PAL war chariot first though with another unit. They can't utilize the roads in enemy territotry, so your suggest movement pattern won't get them to capture the city this turn, right?

mh

[mostly-harmless]

Dear Rabbits,
we are interested in a stable world in balance.
To find back to that balance we are happy to help friends in need.
However, you must understand, that our explorers have traveled a very far distance to speak to you on this fine day.
Any direct military intervention from Realms Beyond is therefore not practicable.
That is not to say we can't help you otherwise.
If your Spearman "Forest Gum" were to attack the PAL war chariot 1W+1SW he might find a very rewarding sight, especially considering your Great Caerbannog Chariot is nearby.

You might want to consider such action to even out the score a bit.

On a different topic, would you please be so kind as to point us into the general direction of the legendary Banana civ? We are keen to see their big pyramid.

RB


How about that?
As Sullla said we have to send this in the next hours to have an effect.

mh

[sooooo]

Cannot log in, but m_h is right I think. Do Rabbits have a handy spear that could kill the chariot?

[mostly-harmless]

I logged out, take a look soooo.

mh

[sooooo]

M-H, I like your message but I think we should be more explicit. Say that their holy city is undefended and razable if they act right now, and give exact instructions for both of their units.

[sooooo]

Haha, I cannot log in because I am at work and don't have civ.

[mostly-harmless]

Haha, indeed.

Yes, there is a spearman (Forest Gum) on that roaded forested hill at full strength. He should be able to take out the war chariot.
What I am not so sure is, whether the Rabbit chariot has enough movement points to reach Heliopolis this turn, coming from a tile behind the spear.
Dear Rabbits,
we are interested in a stable world in balance.
To find back to that balance we are happy to help friends in need.
However, you must understand, that our explorers have traveled a very far distance to speak to you on this fine day.
Any direct military intervention from Realms Beyond is therefore not practicable.
That is not to say we can't help you otherwise.
If your Spearman "Forest Gum" were to attack the PAL war chariot 1W+1SW (at 95+% odds) he might find a very rewarding sight, namely PALs undefended Holy City, especially considering your Great Caerbannog Chariot is nearby, which should be able to reach it with your +1 movement promotion.

You might want to consider such action to even out the score a bit.

On a different topic, would you please be so kind as to point us into the general direction of the legendary Banana civ? We are keen to see their big pyramid.

RB
mh

[sooooo]

Oh, the chariot is not on the same tile as the spear? Then no, I don't think it will work. Worth checking in worldbuilder, but the chariot is too far away. It can only move 1 square in the templars' territory.

[mostly-harmless]

Ha, it works, the Great General Chariot has the +1 movement promotion!
I just test-ran it worldbuilder.
The spear takes out the war chariot at 96% odds, the Great General Chariot defeats the Great General at Heliopolis and takes the city.

mh

[sooooo]

Sweet, nice work. Add the movement instructions and the odds, send it off to rabbits asap I think.

[mostly-harmless]

Message (see above) sent.
If that works out, it would be quite a coup.
Lets hope PAL does not figure out we bent the no scouting clause a bit.

mh

[ruff_hi]

nice work team! just don't send this message to PAL by accident!

[Sullla]

Yes, sorry if I was not clear. The Great General chariot (with Mobility promotion, or whatever it's called) has 3 movement points. That's why it can go SW - SW - SW - W and raze Heliopolis without ever fighting a battle. Suicide mission, to be sure, but I think the Rabbits would happily go for it.

Nice work getting off a message so quickly. :D Now the ball is in their court... (If any of us would happen to see them in-game in the next few hours, please do pass the word along there as well.)

[Swiss Pauli]

I'm slightly too late, but I think we have plausible deniability: Rabbits' spear can see the chariot, and once it kills the chariot it can seee the undefended city.

We don't want PAL to nix the CS deal by figuring out that we prompted Rabbits after our unauthorised scouting.

[Zeviz]

EDIT: Never mind. If they read our message, they'll see the important part. And if they don't, they will not.

[ruff_hi]

Well - the warbits logged in various times and have finished their turn without moving any units. Seems they might have missed an opportunity.

[sooooo]

Maybe they had moved their units before Sullla logged in?

[ruff_hi]

no - units still showed movement available (if I am reading the game info correctly).

[Zeviz]

Can we PM some of their leaders? Perhpas they don't check their diplo email very often.

EDIT: Although it might be too late by now.

[ruff_hi]

opportunity lost - the PAL chariot has gone - I would assume that it has retired to Heliopolis.

[Sullla]

Rabbits are idiots, sadly. They had a golden opportunity to raze a PAL city, and did nothing about it. I can't believe they logged into the game multiple times and didn't attack! :rolleyes:

It's hard not to be fatalistic about this game when PAL is on an island with two teams that clearly don't have the faintest clue what they are doing...

[mostly-harmless]

Hold on a second. I am not sure we would see if foreign units have spent their movement points. I think the available movement points are always displayed by default.
It might just be that all their units move already before we spotted the opportunity.

mh

[ruff_hi]

info from the wabbits ...


Hi Realms Beyond,

Our team thanks you for the information, but unfortunately our moves were already done so we could act on it only from 350 BC onwards, while PAL still had to play its turn. So we expect this war chariot will retreat to Heliopolis.
However, it could be useful to us to confirm this situation at the onset of 350 BC. Could we therefore request a screenshot of the immediate area around Heliopolis?

As on you ongoing quest to search for the Pyramids, we advise your scout to backtrack towards Heliopolis, head south as long as you're in PAL lands and then go a few turns southeast.

With thanks,
Warbit of the Rabbits

[Dreylin]

Hmmm, a screenshot seems like an awful lot ... and a bit beyond our "subtle influence" - not to mention evidence.

If we are heading back that way as suggested to reach the Bananas, we could send a discretely worded e-mail.

[mostly-harmless]

Yep, no screenshot. If that screenshot get somehow passed to PAL, we are screwed.

mh

[Zeviz]

Yes, we can't send them anything that would be as damaging as a screenshot. Besides, we can't even scout PAL cities for them, because of the "no scouting" clause in our NAP.

[mostly-harmless]

Exactly, also we kind of agreed earlier to wait for World Map trading ingame before exchanging screenshots, I believe.

mh

[sunrise089]

Can the Rabbit GG chariot still hit PAL's war chariot in the city? If the war chariot is the only defender the 20% or whatnot battle will be worthwhile. Remember, the Rabbit chariot has the anti-horse promotion to boot.

[Dreylin]

However the likelyhood is that the GG we saw waiting in Heliopolis is now joined to the War Chariot and promoted accordingly...

[mostly-harmless]

We will know next turn what Rabbits decided to do, when our scout has to move north again.

mh

[ruff_hi]

draft response ...


Warbit of the Rabbits,

Its a pity that your units had used their moves - it would have been a wonderful coup. We were not able to get an update of the situation at the onset of 350BC and I am not sure if we can get an update for future turns. Further, our team made a decision ages ago not to share screenshots that we are going to stick to.

That said, we will try to assist your survival as we have done over the past few turns.

Thanks for the info re the Pyramids. It seems that your land mass is even more screwed than ours.

Regards,

Team RB

[mostly-harmless]

Warbit of the Rabbits,

Its a pity that your units had used their moves - it would have been a wonderful coup. We were not able to get an update of the situation at the onset of 350BC and I am not sure if we can get an update for future turns. Further, our team made a decision ages ago not to share screenshots that we are going to stick to until map trading is allowed ingame

That said, we will try to assist your survival as we have done over the past few turns.

Thanks for the info re the Pyramids. It seems that your land mass is even more screwed than ours.

Regards,

Team RB

I am wondering whether we should relay a message to Banana via Rabbits, asking them to try to meet us in Rabbits lands. Assuming they have fully open borders with PAL, of course.

mh

[sunrise089]

However the likelyhood is that the GG we saw waiting in Heliopolis is now joined to the War Chariot and promoted accordingly...

That isn't the normal MP move though. Normally you make a 2-move axe to send with your chariot/horse archer stack and remove the threat of spears.

[Zeviz]

It's a good idea to ask them to relay to Banana invitation to meet us in Rabbit lands. (However, chances of Banana having a full Open Borders with PAL are pretty low.)

[ruff_hi]

email sent

[sooooo]

What about sending them a message to see what they are researching. Something like:

Hi Rabbits,

We'd like to help you out and notice you lack iron working, a tech we could potentially get to you. We were wondering - what tech are you researching at the moment?

Realms Beyond

[Zeviz]

We can also tell them about PAL's drop in power and that "PAL might be currently running max cash".

[mostly-harmless]

Rabbits are aware of PALs power drop. They have enough Espionage points to see PALs demo stats.

mh

[sunrise089]

That's assuming they check the screen. Anyone want to put money on that? :)

[mostly-harmless]

Hi Rabbits,
We'd like to help you out and noticed you lack iron working, a tech we could potentially get to you. We were wondering - what tech are you researching at the moment and what is your estimated completion date.

We recognize your temporary difficulties to maintain a competitive research rate due to your conflict with PAL, which makes coordinated research even more important.

Realms Beyond


Ideally we have Rabbits research smaller techs for us. I have no problem giving them tech deals that are in their favor beaker wise.

mh

[Zeviz]

The message looks good. (Aside from a couple typos.)

[sooooo]

Message looks good, change "our" to "your" in first paragraph.

[mostly-harmless]

Someone please send it, I am away from my computer for the next 24 hours.

mh

[ruff_hi]

email sent as is except I changed "Realms Beyond" to "Team RB"

[mostly-harmless]

Rabbits started a conversation ingame. They are 1 turn away from Iron Working, but are interested in coordinated research.
We should decide quickly which tech route we want them to follow.

mh

[Sullla]

If they're going to research anything useful for us, we'll probably have to gift them techs.

Maybe they can research Horseback Riding next for us? We could cut them a really nice deal for it, something like Polytheism + Monarchy. Then we would be free to go after Construction (for defense) or Drama (to trade to PAL). I assuming that this is after making a pit stop for Mathematics, naturally. Math has to be our next research.

[mostly-harmless]

I am just worried that their slow research rate means they won't get HBR in ages.

mh

[mostly-harmless]

Hi Rabbits,
following up from our little in game chat, what would be your ETA for Horse Back Riding? We would be able to offer you Monarchy in return.
And we would waive the difference in beaker costs.

TRB


I don't think we can offer Polytheism as we did not research it ourselves.

We should send this message this turn.
Comments?

mh

[Dreylin]

I'd just send the first sentence; don't bother mentioning the beaker difference.

Only hiccough is that we've tentatively agreed with Pal to trade HBR to them ... but I guess we could go back to Drama as tech3 in that trade....

[mostly-harmless]

Ah, right, PAL. The problem is that Rabbits research rate really sucks and they can only get us HBR and Math at the moment. And I don't think we want to delay math any longer.

mh

[Dreylin]

Well, we can still use Drama as the other third of the Pal trade ... or if we go straight through to Construction, we could ammend that one in.

I think it's definitely worth asking Rabbits what their ETA on HBR would be.

[sunrise089]

Agree, lets just find out the HBR ETA.

[mostly-harmless]

I think it is save to assume that Rabbits are last in the GNP ranking.
That would mean 37 GNP. We have a pretty good view into their 2 city empire and can split it up into:
4 espionage
9 culture
24 gold

So that means 24 beakers if they can run 100% (which they can't sustain due to massive military spending & support.
That means HBR in ~13 turns!

We can ask them to confirm, but I believe it is not an option for us.

mh

[mostly-harmless]

Hi Rabbits,
following up from our little in game chat, what would be your ETA for Horse Back Riding? We would be able to offer you Monarchy in return.

TRB

message sent.

mh

[Sullla]

In-game chat with Rabbits:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=159934&stc=1&d=1233695567

The one line had to be edited in because the Rabbits person spoke to "All" instead of just us, for some reason in there. It was pretty important, so I added it back in!

I hate these in-game chats, because I'm always afraid I will say something stupid and damage relations. Anyway, I think it's safe to say that we definitely do not want to be waiting around for 25 turns to get Horseback Riding. We'll either be past our crisis or dead at that point. Is there any other way we could potentially be useful to Rabbits? Like, we give them a tech now, and then they research something for us in return?

Maybe something like Calendar tech? What about this: we tell Rabbits that they run zero science for the moment. We gift them Monarchy, then Math, as we complete research on them. Then, they start plowing that cash surplus into 100% research on Calendar, and knock it out in ~15 turns while we research Construction/Horseback Riding/whatever.

Would that work, or am I completely crazy? :p I feel like we have to try and get something out of this horribly backwards team that poses no threat to us.

[Swiss Pauli]

It can't hurt to propose something like that deal to Rabbits. However, we must have CS from PAL before we start gifting Rabbits techs...

[regoarrarr]

Yeah - I think that would work and would definitely agree to wait till we have CS before we do anything.

Though they couldn't be sure it was us that gifted anything, right?

[Dreylin]

Well "No Tech Brokering" would allow them to narrow it down to us and Imperio (assuming Banana are as useless as we suspect) and unless we are deliberately misleading on the timings, I think they'd quickly decide that it was us.

Particularly since we're trying to sell them on the idea of "maintaining balance" on this continent...

[regoarrarr]

Just to probably confirm, they are probably building a settler in the capital since they mentioned in-game I believe that their research would be dropping due to re-settling a city soon.

[Swiss Pauli]

My proposal:
Hi Rabbits,
Further to our in-game chat we have some ideas and advice for you:

Firstly, we all know you're in a tech hole. So were Templars until they landed an interesting monopoly tech (Metalcasting). We propose that you do something similar, and target Calendar. We have a couple of Calendar resources to hook up, and we'll happily pay you in advance with Maths & the rest of Monarchy (in roughly 10 turns). Templars have two or three Calendar resources (and would surely give you MC in return), Imperio has none (but they do have Marble and may well be interested in the Mausoleum), but we haven't met Banana, so you'll need to fill in the blank here. You would need to go to 0% research now to stockpile cash for a run at Calendar. It's a rather left-field proposal, but desperate times means desperate measures.

We've noticed that PAL's pop has just dropped considerably, and as they've recently traded for Construction, we advise you to expect incoming Catapults.

One tip for your next city: if you can settle a city on the north coast then it will allow trades routes with our continent which would give a welcome shot in the arm to your economy.

We look forward to your feedback.

[ruff_hi]

nice but change 'whole' to 'hole'.

[regoarrarr]

Looks good - send it!

[Sullla]

I agree that we should send the message. Not at all sure that we would have a trade route with Rabbits should they settle the north coast, however; wouldn't it have to go through PAL borders, and be blocked by their war against Rabbits (?) Maybe not. Anyway, we have no clue where they're going to settle, so it doesn't hurt to mention it.

PAL will probably roll up Rabbits in the next dozen turns and this will come to nothing, but hey, it doesn't hurt to try something with the game's most pathetic civ. ;)

[Swiss Pauli]

Unless PAL have settled on the north coast since we passed through then Rabbits can get trade routes with our continent.

I'll send Rabbits the email in the next couple of hours.

[sunrise089]

Are we just trying to be nice to the Rabbits here? Otherwise I see no reason to orchestrate their tech trades for them. In my mind, simply the prospect of RB gifting them 2 techs up front should be more than enough motivation to get them researching whatever we want without the need to direct them to improve the Templars via a trade.

[Swiss Pauli]

Email sent.

@sunrise - our main aim is to slow down PAL's domination of their continent whilst getting something for ourselves, and for that we need to boost Rabbits. Let's not forget we're asking them to research a peaceful tech whilst their at war, so we need to make a strong case for the benefits of doing so. Templars would get a couple of sugars, and the banana (if they bother settlling near it), so we're not exactly giving them a edge (we gain dyes which fit well with our cheap theatres).

[mostly-harmless]

Ah, a bit too late.
There is no contact between Templars & Rabbits!
And who said Banana is useless. They really gained momentum lately and have comparable population to Imperio and us!
They also tech traded a lot with Templars lately.

mh

[Zeviz]

Let's ask them to ask Banana how they met Templars, just in case we can arrange Banana's boat to meet us.

[mostly-harmless]

We should not mention Templars to them at all, as they have not met that civilisation yet.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

I think we can talk to them about Templars as much as we like, the only restriction is on them contacting Templars before meeting them in-game.

[Zeviz]

Yes, the only restriction is in-game contact. Us trying to pass messages through other civs is exactly in the spirit of roleplaying lack of direct contact.

[mostly-harmless]

Hi Rabbits,
can you do us a little favor and relay a message from us to Banana, please?
Message:
Rumours have it you are allowed to sail north with your workboat. Be assured our envoys are waiting to spot your sails on the horizon. We are currently enjoying the hospitality of the Rabbits.

Thanks a lot.
We feel that we can work closer together against any foreign aggressor if we can coordinate contact with all civs.

RB


That should go out soon.

Btw. Banana is back to one man team again.

mh

[ruff_hi]

email from the wabbits ...


It seems this was the last mail received.

To give an update: PAL appearantly traded extensively with at least Imperio, and so gave them the ability to field Maceman on top of catapults. I suppose I don't need to draw out there's nothing Caerbannog can put against those kind of units. In short, without either the ability to train landsknechts or crossbows (or perhaps longbows) our civ is history in 20 turns max.
Any chance you can help us get one of those types of units? And what would be the price (speaken in long term then)?

Cheers,
Team Caerbannog

[Sullla]

Obviously we're the wrong civ for them to be talking to here...

The best we can do is tell them that Imperio is the civ that has Feudalism, and Banana has Machinery - except that they can't even gift them Machinery, since Templars were the ones to discover that, and Templars don't have contact with Rabbits.

Yeah, Rabbits are goin' down in a hurry. PAL's enormous spike on the Power graph over the last five turns kinda hinted at that.

[regoarrarr]

Worth giving them any MP advice?

[Swiss Pauli]

email sent:

Hi Rabbits,

Templars hold the key to Crossbows as they are the civ who researched Metalcasting, so there's no chance of you getting Machinery from Banana.

Imperio is the only civ with Feudalism, so you'd have to ask them to trade it to you.

It doesn't look good for you, I'm afraid.

Cheers,

Swiss Pauli

I was tempted to ask them wtf their gameplan was, but I couldn't be bothered, as I feared their answer would reduce me to tears of laughter.

[mostly-harmless]

Hi Rabbits,
can we agree to stop spending espionage points at each other?
We suggest you invest one more ept to see our demographics (current cost 42 - you have 41, we have 43) and we refrain from raising the cost by spending ept against you. This way we are both happy and can spend our espionage points against more "pressing" civs.
What do you say?

TRB
I just don't want us spending epts against a team that might be history soon.

mh

[Zeviz]

Sounds good.

[mostly-harmless]

Message sent. Espionage points adjusted.
If they refuse we can always catch up again next turn.

mh

[mostly-harmless]

Head over to the Disputes thread in the main forum.
Looks like Rabbits quit the game.
I am having a look what effects that can have (apart from PAL having free reign on 3/4 of a 4 civ continent!!!!).

EDIT: I am not even sure how you can set your civ to be controlled by AI. Any ideas?

mh

[sunrise089]

In normal MP you just exit the game...but in Pitboss? Maybe just auto-everything and alt-build archers everywhere.

[ruff_hi]

my understanding (PBEM supported) is that Ctrl-Q will retire you from the game and that an AI steps in.

[mostly-harmless]

EDIT: Zoid confirmed it.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

New turn, new Rabbits: they're back playing again which doesn't help our cause...

[mostly-harmless]

Message sent.
Hi Rabbits,
to come back to that topic as we have not received an answer to this:

Can we agree to stop spending espionage points at each other?
We have currently equal amounts spent and can see our demographics so there is no point in "wasting" small investments of epts.

This way we are both happy and can spend our espionage points against more "pressing" civs.
What do you say?

TeamRealmsBeyond

[Sullla]

OK, now that we have Currency (see Imperio thread), we actually have a use for Rabbits again: selling them techs at absurdly discounted prices to fuel our own deficit research. You'd think that one of the other teams would have tried this already, but PAL is at war with them, Templars/Banana lack Currency, and Imperio are idiots. How about we offer to sell them Monarchy or Math for something crazy cheap, like 100g?

Of course, the one risk we run is offending PAL. But we could probably get away with selling non-military techs like Monarchy or Aesthetics for cash, right? And Rabbits are so completely and utterly finished, they'll have to snatch at the deal... right?

Too bad that they ARE back as human players - we could have snookered the AI on some tech sales! ;)

[Swiss Pauli]

email in:
RB,
My apologies for the delay in answering, the hutch is undergoing a bit of a reshuffle at the moment. We agree with your reasoning and will action it it the immediate future.
Cheers,
Rabbits

mh will be pleased ;)

[mostly-harmless]

mh is indeed pleased. ;)

mh

[Zeviz]

I like Sulla's idea. Can we suggest it today?

[sunrise089]

Sullla's idea is great. We should definitely ask them to just run 0% science until we've given them as much as we can.

[Swiss Pauli]

They've got 42g as of T114. No idea how much they'd pull in per turn at 0%, but I'm sure mh can come up with a good estimate.

We've got three in favour. I'm a bit concerned that trading Maths will upset PAL at the wrong moment, but I'm fine with Monarchy, or Aesthetics. I'd really like some more votes tonight. I may not be around later, so someone else should send the email if we want to get it out tonight.

[Sullla]

I say no military techs going to Rabbits; if PAL comes complaining, we can tell them that we deliberately avoided aiding their enemies with anything military related. That means no Math, Horseback Riding, or Construction.

I don't PAL can really get too upset if we sell techs like Monarchy and Aesthetics to Rabbits. As if they wouldn't be doing the same thing in our place! ;)

[Dreylin]

Of course what Rabbits really need are military technologies, so do we really think they're going to put their own military research on hold for the promise of non-military technologies ... oh yeah, this is Rabbits! :lol:

How about:

Rabbits,

Now that we have (surprisingly) obtained currency from Imperio, would you be interested in buying (gold) some technologies from us on the cheap? We could make Monarchy available to you for a very reasonable discount price in Gold, and would consider other offers you might have.

TeamRB

I don't think Pal could get too upset with us trading them military techs like HBR - they haven't even tried to negotiate an embargo, and have bee actively doing the same with our competitor....

[Zeviz]

Sounds good.

[Swiss Pauli]

Rabbits,

Now that we have obtained currency, would you be interested in buying (gold) some technologies from us? We could make Monarchy available to you for a very reasonable 100g, and would consider other offers you might have.

TeamRB

Let's keep it simple, as we need a quick reply before Rabbits ascend to the great hutch in the sky ;)

[mostly-harmless]

I don't think Rabbits will see 100gold again.
I will look into this in a few hours.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

Yeah, when I logged in this morning Mountain Hutch was no more.

[Sullla]

I don't think Rabbits will see 100gold again.
I will look into this in a few hours.

mh


I don't either, but we may as well attempt it. :)

[mostly-harmless]

Rabbits are listed with 27 GNP
-7 epts (4[palace]+3[settled spy])
-9 culture (3[Diggers Burrow{Monument1000years & Islam}] + 6[Caerbannog{Palace & GreatWall1000years}]
=11 beakers/gold per turn.

I figure they will loose Diggers Burrow in T118 and Caerbannog around T125. They might get lucky and get a border pop from Diggers Burrow soon giving them 20% more cultural defense.

In any case it will take them another 6 turns to accumulate 100 gold. They might have given up by then loosing Diggers Burrow and the AI might not remember, that it owes us money.

So we either settle for 50 gold next turn or we forget about it. 50 gold is just one turn of 100% research for us, so not that much.

mh

[Zeviz]

Let's ask them for 50 gold. Free cash is free cash. :)

[Swiss Pauli]

Offer made.

[mostly-harmless]

mh is no longer pleased:

Rabbits keep spending epts towards us, raising the cost for visible demographics, despite agreeing not to do so couple of turns ago.

Its a minor thing, compared to the problems they are facing, but still an agreement is an agreement and it is annoying for us to divert epts towards Rabbits.

Swiss, can you please send a polite but firm reminder to them? Thanks.

mh

[Sullla]

I'd rather get info on Banana now than Rabbits, so I would vote to stop spending EP with Rabbits right now. Since Rabbits are last in basically every category, I can estimate their GNP/Food/Production numbers from the "Rival Worst" stat.

The one place I can't do this is with the Power stat, since Banana is lower than Rabbits. Still, we don't have a lot of EP to go around, and getting info on Banana is more important.

Also, Rabbits are just idiots. Maybe they don't even know how to open up the Espionage Screen? :o

[mostly-harmless]

Well, we are not spending any epts on Rabbits since we got the no-espionage agreement with them from T114. If they don't comply with the agreement, we will loose their demograph next couple of turns.
I totally agree, it's not worth wasting epts on them anymore.

mh

[mostly-harmless]

Reminder sent.

mh

[Zeviz]

Should we just offer the a deal in-game? (Worked for Imperio.)

[Sullla]

Would anyone be against sending Rabbits a message like this:

We would like to help the brave people of Caerbannog in their ongoing struggle. As such, we will offer to sell your team any of our tradeable technologies for the discount price of 50g. Please let us know if any of them interest you.


Rabbits lost their horses, so it's not like selling them Horseback Riding would do anything (even assuming that they would pick that tech). And 50g is 50g, worth a full turn of deficit research. What do you think?

[regoarrarr]

I'd be for that - 50g is 50g.

[Kylearan]

Aye, let's go for some cash. It's like selling an AI some outdated tech, which I have a lot of good experience with. :)

[Zeviz]

I thought we already offered this to them a while ago. If we didn't, let's do it now.

[Swiss Pauli]

@zeviz - we limited the previous offer to Aesth or Monarchy.

Email sent:


Hi Rabbits,

We would like to help the brave people of Caerbannog in their ongoing struggle. As such, we will offer to sell your team any of our tradeable technologies for the discount price of 50g. Please let us know if any of them interest you.

Cheers,

Team RB

[mostly-harmless]

Hi Rabbits,
how is it going? We see you manage quite admirable to hold on against some overwhelming numbers. Are you making efforts towards a peace treaty with PAL?

Regards
TRB
For the unlikely chance that they survive we should stay in contact.
Also we could try to mediate a peace between PAL and Rabbits.

Thoughts?

mh

[Zeviz]

Sounds good. Trying to mediate peace with PAL wouldn't work, because PAL has nothing to gain from it. However, we can still offer them tech for all of their cash in game. (We can even offer them to run 100% cash and buy techs from us once in a while.)

[Swiss Pauli]

Rabbits didn't reply to our last emails IIRC, and seem be only logging in for the minimal amount of time each turn, so don't expect much from them any more.

[mostly-harmless]

True, but then again they are putting up quite a fight. PAL got a big drop in their power rating but Diggers Burrow still stands.

mh

[Sullla]

I would definitely stay in contact with them, and re-offer that we will sell them any of our technologies for 50g. That's a free turn at 100% research for us.

Just because Rabbits have no chance to win the game doesn't mean to ignore them. Even nations with only one supply center can still wreck havoc in Diplomacy. ;)

[mostly-harmless]

Hi Rabbits,
how is it going? We see you manage quite admirable to hold on against some overwhelming numbers. Are you making efforts towards a peace treaty with PAL?
Our offer to sell you techs for a discount price still stands.

Regards
Team RB

eMail sent

[Zeviz]

Thanks.

Hopefully they will take an opportunity to get a few critical techs.

[ruff_hi]

reply ...


RB,
Things are holding up well in the warren and we're doing what rabbits do best! It seems that our lapine tactics are working nicely, and we haven't even unleashed our secret weapon yet.....
Regarding trading, we would love to strengthen our relationship with another exchange. What can you offer for the princely sum of 35gp??
Looking forward to a long and prosperous partnership. Once we put Project Daucus Carota in action and see to our pestering neighbour, we can forge ahead towards mutual gratification.
Most sincere regards,
Da Wabbit Envoy

[Kylearan]

At least they haven't lost their humor! :D :b:

[mostly-harmless]

I don't think we have anything of immediate value to them, and we don't want to anger PAL.
So I suggest we trade them Monotheism for their 36 gold now with the promise to make similar deals in the future.

mh

[regoarrarr]

Sounds good to me!

[Sullla]

Yep, I agree that that sounds good. They have an official state religion, so it's possible that they could even get some use out of Organized Religion. Theoretically, anyway...

And hey, 35g is 35g. :b:

[sunrise089]

RB,
Things are holding up well in the warren and we're doing what rabbits do best! ...

They're breeding?!?

[Zeviz]

We can offer them any ancient tech. Considering how badly behind they are, PAL shouldn't object.


Hi Rabbits,

It's good to see that you are still holding on. You can pick any tech you want for now, although we'd prefer payments of 50$ in the future. Just make an offer in game.

Team RB

[sooooo]

They haven't done so yet, so I have offered them monotheism for 40 gold in-game.

[sooooo]

From civstats it appears that they accepted the deal. I'd like to send this email:


Rabbits,

Thanks for the trade :). If you reduce your science to 0%, we are sure we can sell you techs at at a faster rate than you can research them. We can offer mathematics or aesthetics for 50 gold if you like.

Keep up the good fight :b:

Realms Beyond.

[Zeviz]

The email sounds good. Every bit of gold they save us helps.

[sunrise089]

Rabitts must be kicking themselves that they spent 40 gold for the near-useless Monotheism and will be getting Math for only 10-gold more :)

[ruff_hi]

Rabitts must be kicking themselves that they spent 40 gold for the near-useless Monotheism and will be getting Math for only 10-gold more :)roflmao

[sooooo]

Email sent.

[mostly-harmless]

Hi Rabbits,
we are facing a war ourselves now any minute. Imperio has ignored our cries for negotiations and has moved a sizable army near one of our core cities.
Should hostilities break out between Imperio and TeamRB, we would ask you to cancel your open border agreement with Imperio to send a clear sign, that you do not approve of their actions.

Thanks
Team RB

Every little helps. Closed border from Rabbits and Banana will hurt Imperio a bit.

mh

[sunrise089]

I'd ask them to, and also ask PAL to at least cancel the Ivory trade to Templars and Imperio.

[sooooo]

IMO we should wait to see if a war declaration occurs before sending anything out.

[ruff_hi]

email from the wabbits ...

Greetings,

Thanks for the offer. We would indeed be interested to trade Mathematics for 50 gold. We'll assemble the sum as soon as possible.

The Rabbits
should we tell them to just offer the trade when they have the money? What about future tech? I don't think we can keep selling them every tech we have for 50 gold. If they only take 2 turns to gather 50 gold, we could end up selling them 5 techs over 10 turns.

[mostly-harmless]

Its more like 12 turns for them to get 50g at their current empire.

mh

[Zeviz]

Perhaps we should discuss this in meta-game thread, because we either ask everybody or nobody to cancel the OB with Imperio.

[mostly-harmless]

Proposal

Hi Rabbits,
we see you have strengthen you relation to Imperio with some very cheap tech deals and gold transfers.
To let you know: there is a very high chance that both Imperio and Templars will declare war on us in the next hours. We are therefore a bit concerned about your cooperation, especially the gold transfers to Imperio.
Team RB and Rabbits have maintained good relationships from the beginning started with our gift of archery to you in your times of need.
We would therefore ask you to cancel your deals with Imperio. We are sure we can work out a good deal for both our team's needs.

mh


Comments?

mh

[Zeviz]

I'd prefer to use Rabbit-Imperio deal as an argument against Imperio in our email to PAL. 4gpt will make no difference for us, but evidence that Imperio is feeding tech to rabbits should anger PAL.

[mostly-harmless]

Needless to say your behaviour is deeply annoying.
We regret that we gifted you Archery in your times of need.

May you rot in your hutches.

TRB


Obviously a draft.
:)

mh

[Zeviz]

It's better to be more polite:
Rabbits,

When we first met, you were in danger of being crushed by PAL's unstoppable might, so we immediately gifted you Archery, which saved your skin. Now you pay us back by allying with our enemies and closing borders to us. Is this how you show the gratitude for helping you survive to this point?

Team RB

[mostly-harmless]

It's better to be more polite:
Especially in the case of Rabbits: Why is it better to be more polite? :huh:

I am very much in favor of marching our diplo corps to the recruitment office around the corner. :D

mh

[Zeviz]

Especially in the case of Rabbits: Why is it better to be more polite? :huh:

I am very much in favor of marching our diplo corps to the recruitment office around the corner. :D

mh
Remember how we managed to get several important tech trades from neighbors that were about to attack us? If we had been throwing insults at them at that time, we wouldn't have gotten anything from them. So never write off diplomacy.

Also, being polite is just better in general and insulting your opponents is unsportsmanlike and immature. You'd never insult your competitors during a chess tournament, or during a sports game (if I am not mistaken), so the only reason insults are acceptable in multiplayer CIV is that Internet is a rude place in general, but RB is better that that, so let's show it in our communication.

[mostly-harmless]

Remember how we managed to get several important tech trades from neighbors that were about to attack us? If we had been throwing insults at them at that time, we wouldn't have gotten anything from them. So never write off diplomacy.
I believe it was very much established, that despite bad reputation, bad diplo climate (Templars BA, anyone) teams are going to jump on a tech trade if they see any benefit. That whole tech trading between us and Imp and Tem, went ahead in virtually no time and was not accompanied by any diplo talk iirc.

Also, being polite is just better in general and insulting your opponents is unsportsmanlike and immature. You'd never insult your competitors during a chess tournament, or during a sports game (if I am not mistaken), so the only reason insults are acceptable in multiplayer CIV is that Internet is a rude place in general, but RB is better that that, so let's show it in our communication.
That comparison is not entirely valid, as there is very little chance of betrayal and backstabbing in sports and chess.
Insults in world politics on the other hand are going on all the time. :)

mh

[sunrise089]

Remember how we managed to get several important tech trades from neighbors that were about to attack us? If we had been throwing insults at them at that time, we wouldn't have gotten anything from them. So never write off diplomacy.

Also, being polite is just better in general and insulting your opponents is unsportsmanlike and immature. You'd never insult your competitors during a chess tournament, or during a sports game (if I am not mistaken), so the only reason insults are acceptable in multiplayer CIV is that Internet is a rude place in general, but RB is better that that, so let's show it in our communication.
I remain totally unconvinced the bolded passage is true. Remember, the converse is totally false - civs have traded with civs when they have no in-character diplo reason to do so.

I also think people act impolite in sports all the time. I'm a big F1 racing fan, which is supposedly a lot classier and more civilized than US-based NASCAR. Yet drivers give each other the finger on the TV feed all the time. Those same drivers however will be the best of friends if they later join the same team. Why? Because just like in real life and civ, people can say whatever they want and generally not suffer consequences because other people will pursue their best interests.

[mostly-harmless]

I want to comment on this one more time.
Also, being polite is just better in general and insulting your opponents is unsportsmanlike and immature. You'd never insult your competitors during a chess tournament, or during a sports game (if I am not mistaken), so the only reason insults are acceptable in multiplayer CIV is that Internet is a rude place in general, but RB is better that that, so let's show it in our communication.

I believe you mix up two different things here, Zeviz.
One thing is RB's high standards regarding politeness, fairness and general good behaviour. And you will find me stepping in for those values like you do.
I believe, we have shown a very civilised behaviour in our posts during the organization phase and while discussing off topic or on ruling issues in the general forums. (We might have to censor some of our remarks regarding the map maker once the team forums go public, though) :cool:

On the other hand we are playing a game simulating the rise and fall and interaction of civilisations over the course of history. Diplomacy is part of this game. Insulting and taunting your enemy is not off the table in this game of diplomacy. Look at the diplo screens available in CIV. The statements accompanying war declarations are not polite. Imagine Civ5 ships with a diplo model that does not need out of game communication but is so complete that it includes all possible options and dialogs of diplomacy. I ensure you insulting your opponent will be an option there. (Have a look at Europa Universalis for an example of insults being a core part of the diplo model). Now, we have never decided that we will roleplay a turn-the-other-cheek-ignore-the-multiple-daggers-in-the-back-always-be-polite civ in this particular game. After all we will have no problem with razing cities, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of civilians while doing so or spying on our opponents or slaving our own people to become military units which we send into their certain deaths on the frontline.

So I believe "unsportsmanlike", "immature" and "RB is better than that" are wrongly applied here.

mh

[Zeviz]

Admittedly, I have no CIV multiplayer experience, so if insulting opponents is considered part of the game, I can't object. I was thinking more about MMORPGs, where some people seem to have nothing but insults in their vocabulary. If everybody else doesn't have a problem with insulting opponents, I was wrong in that post and withdraw objections to your messages.

And I wasn't suggesting to turn the other cheek all the time. (Or any time for that matter.) I just don't like insults whether directed at me or at others.

[ruff_hi]

I don't find "may you rot in your hutches" insulting. I think it accurately reflects my (the teams?) frustration / annoyance with The Rabbits at this point in time. If our relations improve, we can easily say ...

"Sorry about the Hutch comment".

At which time, I expect they will say ...

"No problem - it was actually pretty funny!"

[sooooo]

Wait, no one actually send the "may you rot in your hutches" email did they?

*checks gmail account*

No, no one sent it. We shouldn't send it either. As far as I know, no one has actively insulted the other teams to their faces.

[Zeviz]

I still think we should send this:

Rabbits,

When we first met, you were in danger of being crushed by PAL, so we immediately gifted you Archery, which saved your skin. (While Imperio didn't gift you any techs in your hour of greatest need.) Now you pay us back by allying with our enemies and closing borders to us. Is this how you show the gratitude for helping you survive to this point?

Team RB

[ruff_hi]

We all know that Rabbits are a lost cause. Why not just express our disappointment ...


Rabbits,

When we first met, you were in danger of being crushed by PAL, so we immediately gifted you Archery, which saved your skin. (While Imperio didn't gift you any techs in your hour of greatest need.) Now you pay us back by allying with our enemies and closing borders to us. We are very disappointed in you.

Team RB


Honestly, we have nothing to gain from The Wabbits and plenty to lose (Rabbits complain publically that TRB said our hutches stink!). Lets just send this off and then ignore them.

[mostly-harmless]

Sounds good.

mh

[Zeviz]

Either version is fine, as long as we send something.

[Sullla]

I would like to see us send either Zeviz's or Ruff's message (both are essentially the same). Not the angry one proposed earlier. It's not a matter of trying to be above sending insults or anything like that; from a pure perspective of personal gain, we don't benefit in any way from closing off the avenues of communication. Better to make our anger and disappointment felt in a responsible manner. I think Zeviz's message said it best.

Rabbits,

When we first met, you were in danger of being crushed by PAL, so we immediately gifted you Archery, which saved your skin. (While Imperio didn't gift you any techs in your hour of greatest need.) Now you pay us back by allying with our enemies and closing borders to us. Is this how you show the gratitude for helping you survive to this point?

Team RB

[sooooo]

Email in Sullla's post sent.

[Dreylin]

Am logged in ATM ... Rabbits have offered Open Borders with no message.

Should I accept?

[sunrise089]

Err....my sense is "no." Doesn't the war block trade routes to the other continent anyways?

[Dreylin]

I rejected. There was no message with it, and nothing in the e-mail account.

I think only they would get the benefit, so I say no unless they send us a damn good explanation for why they cancelled in the first place!

[Strow]

Do we gain anything with OB? I'd wait for a message and an explanation.

[Zeviz]

OB doesn't currently benefit us, but it will if we make peace with Imeprio or capture a couple of their cities. It doesn't really benefit them either, since they can get intercontinental trade from Imperio instead.

[sunrise089]

Rabbits logged in while I was in game. I tried to talk to them and they ignored me. How rude.

[mostly-harmless]

OB with Rabbits does not benefit us unless we have OB with Imp or Tem and have OB with PAL. PALs city of Navajo blocks all trade to Rabbits.

For now I agree to not accept OB from Rabbits, if it comes with no explanation.

mh

[sooooo]

Rabbits logged in while I was in game. I tried to talk to them and they ignored me. How rude.

I've had the same thing in the past. Also when rabbits log in I always get a "rabbits are using a different version of the game files, is this OK?" pop-up.

[sooooo]

Email from Rabbits:

RB,
Not sure what is going on here. None of our boys knew anything about the canceled deal until your email arrived.

According to our records the open borders deal was canceled in 520AD. We had 4 logins during 520AD and no-one canceled open borders from our end.
Are you 100% sure that none of your teams 17 logins during 520AD accidently canceled the deal??
Please clarify the situation as soon as possible.
In the meantime we have offered open borders again to get our relationship back on track.......
Cheers,
Rabbits

Personally I think we should re-open borders with them. They gain very little from it with their 4 or 5 cities. We, of course, gain nothing at the moment but at least we could repair our relationship and possibly make some trades/sell techs in the future. Also rabbits seem to be the most vocal players, with people like Rob Warham in their team. We would probably like them on our side in case any public disputes occur. [EDIT: And when we get paper we could do with their map because it will have more PAL cities than we know about for the C&D department. We could give them a tech for it.]

[mostly-harmless]

Agree to re-open borders.

mh

[Zeviz]

Yes, let's re-open borders.

[sooooo]

Here's an email draft:


Dear Rabbits,

OK, let's re-open borders. None of our team closed borders - not sure what happened but let's forget about it.

Congratulations for adding a new city to your warren and keep fighting the good fight against PAL. If you need anything let us know. And don't trust those mayans!

Cheers,

Realms Beyond

[mostly-harmless]

Actually two cities. Eisenburg (self founded) & Magyar (captured barb).

We would like them to cancel their gold gifting to Imperio and come back to tech trade with us, like they agreed initially.
Furthermore we might tell them that we are also at war with Templars (which they have not even met yet!)

mh

[ruff_hi]

I closed borders with PAL and then m-h (?) said that they were still open. I could have closed borders with Rabbits by mistake ... pretty sure I didn't, but I might have. Or m-h (?) could have seen the OB with Rabbits and thought they were PAL ...

either way - OB is ok by me.

[mostly-harmless]

No, when I logged in, we already had closed borders with PAL but the Gems deal was still active despite Ruff saying he canceled it. Then I went ahead and canceled the deal. I don't recall opening any diplo screens with Rabbits.

mh

[Sullla]

Well, I think we can all agree it was a good idea not to send that "rot in your hutches" email now. :D

[mostly-harmless]

Yes. :D:D

[mostly-harmless]

We cold really do with their 135g cash reserve in exchange for HBR.

mh

[Strow]

Can we ask why they are giving gold to Imperio? Can we say something like we will reopen boards if you stop giving gold to Imeprio or can we say we will open boards if you give us 135 gold for HBR.

[ruff_hi]

No, when I logged in, we already had closed borders with PAL but the Gems deal was still active despite Ruff saying he canceled it. Then I went ahead and canceled the deal. I don't recall opening any diplo screens with Rabbits.

mhYou canceled deals via diplo screen. I typically use the F4 'Active' tab which shows all of the leaders. So, it was probably me - eek sorry. I wish they would change leader heads to 'Banana', 'Rabbit' and the like instead of Civ4 leaderheads.

[Dreylin]

So how about:

Rabbits,

Sorry, you're right that there's a good chance it was one of our many logins which accidentally canceled OB; then the rest of us saw your gpt deal with Imperio and jumped to the conclusion you had allied yourselves with them. BTW, what's up with that?

Since Pal have started feeding military techs to our enemies, we have no qualms about continuing to offer ours to you. We have HBR available if you happened to have, say 135g? ;)

TeamRB.

[sooooo]

Looks good. I would add a "sorry" in the first paragraph if it was indeed ruff-hi that cancelled the open borders.

[mostly-harmless]

Sounds good. Send it as soon as possible.
btw. I offered OB in game when I was logged in.

mh

[sunrise089]

I'm cool with the open borders I suppose, but lets not loose sight of the fact that despite them not closing borders Rabbits are still feeding gold to our enemy. The situation isn't a total misunderstanding.

[sooooo]

Email sent.

[ruff_hi]

last week we had no one who was sending emails ... now we have two people. Are we going to continue with this feast or famine role? I'm more than happy to leave it with sooooo.

[Zeviz]

Missed last page.

[Zeviz]

We should work hard on getting Rabbits on our side. There is absolutely no downside and a potential upside of saving a turn of building cash every 15 turns, and denying that cash to Imperio.

Here is a proposed email:

Hi Rabbits,

We will give you any tech (or pair of techs) you want for your 135$, even HBR+Engineering.

Also, whatever deal you have with Imperio, we can offer you a better one. For example, if you cancel your gpt payment to them and instead direct it to us, we'll give you EVERY tech we can sell either as soon as we research it, or in packages at pre-arranged time, and might convince Banana to do the same thing.

TeamRB

[regoarrarr]

I like it - anything we can get to make this even 2 1/2 vs. 3 is good

[darrelljs]

I dunno...it feels a little desparate. Zeviz is right, if this is the best deal we can get it is worth it. I just think laying all your cards on the table at the outset is a bit too weak for our situation.

Darrell

P.S. Did they ever respond to sooooo's e-mail from 4/29?

[sunrise089]

Perhaps a simple "Rabbits, name your price to deal with us instead of Imperio" might work?

[mostly-harmless]

I like sunrises approach.

mh

[Zeviz]

They might hesitate to break an existing agreement, so I am trying to offer them a deal that's too good to refuse. The main reason is that not only does it cost us nothing, but the more we help them the more we hurt PAL.

EDIT: Although Sunrize's approach instead of my paragraph could work too. We should send something today, before they spend the cash, so here is a version incorporating Sunrize's suggestion:

Hi Rabbits,

We will give you any tech you want for your 135$, even Engineering.

Also, whatever deal Imperio offered you for that gpt payment, we can give a better one. Just name your price.

TeamRB

EDIT: Removed HBR reference, as suggested by Ruff.
EDIT2: As sooooo suggested, just Engineering and nothing else.

[sooooo]

When I was last logged in I thought about making the HBR for 135 gold offer. But then I realised that they don't have horses so didn't bother.

[Zeviz]

If nobody objects, I'll send the version from my last post late this evening. (In about 5 or 6 hours.) Otherwise, Rabbits might spend the money, or pay them to Imperio.

[ruff_hi]

if they don't have horses, take out the reference to HBR.

[sooooo]

Engineering for 125 gold :eek:

Errr.. OK! But let's just make it engineering, not anything else.

[Zeviz]

Message sent. (With removals suggested by Ruff and Sooooo.)

EDIT: Can somebody offer them Engineering in game?

As for the generosity of offer, it helps us cut 2.5 turns from Operation Bloodbath, costs us nothing, and helps against PAL. I'd gift them all techs we and Banana have if they asked.

[sooooo]

Looks like we forgot something!

Greetings,

We certainly took note of your offer to sell us Engineering, but we like to confirm that you realize that in order to sell us this technology you need to give us Metal Casting and Machinery too. Would that be appropriate for the sum you asked?

Sincerely,
The Rabbits

Oops. We cannot give them those techs.

[mostly-harmless]

Yes, I was wondering abou this briefly.
There are two techs we can trade them. HBR is on of them, dunno what the 2nd is.
We can of course not give them three techs for 135.

How about we offer those two available techs for 135gold?
Anyone care to log in and check and offer?

mh

[regoarrarr]

The 2 techs we can offer for $135 is good to me. But I'd also follow up about the gpt to Imperio, which they did not mention in their email

[sooooo]

I think we need to be more firm with rabbits. We can say that we can provide some techs, but they need to tell us what their deal is with imperio and work as a double-agent for us.

[Zeviz]

That's what I get for not checking in game. What techs can we offer them?

And we should re-ask them what the deal with Imperio is. 135$ is good for a single tech, but if they want more they'll have to cancel the deal with Imperio and re-sign it with us.

[sooooo]

BTW the other tech we can offer Rabbits is AEsthetics.

[mostly-harmless]

We can either offer Rabbits both techs for 138gold or just HBR with the option to provide horses to them as well for a period of time (next 5 turns, before we have Guilds, or do we need horses for stable building?), IF they cancel their deal with Imperio.

mh

[sooooo]

I don't want to offer them horses since the minimum turns is 10 and both ourselves and Banana need them.

I offered both techs for 138 gold in-game.

Email draft:


Dear Rabbits,

Sorry, a mix-up on our part, we forgot about the intervening techs for engineering. We cannot give you them because we did not research them. However, we have offered you HBR and aesthetics for your gold in-game.

You did not reply to our question about Imperio - what is your deal with them and how can we persuade you alter it?

Cheers,

Realms Beyond

[Zeviz]

Sounds good.

[mostly-harmless]

Good.

EDIT: Rabbits did not take the deal in-game.

mh

[sooooo]

I sent the following mail:

Dear Rabbits,

Sorry, a mix-up on our part, we forgot about the intervening techs for engineering. We cannot give you them because we did not research them. However, we have offered you HBR and aesthetics for your gold in-game.

Cheers,

Realms Beyond


I did not include the part about Imperio because I didn't paste all of the last email by mistake. I missed out the P.S:

PS: the Imperio gpt deal is cancelable in a few turns. Still need to confirm with the turnplayer what it was about.

[mostly-harmless]

PS: the Imperio gpt deal is cancelable in a few turns. Still need to confirm with the turnplayer what it was about.
So their diplo guy is not up to date with their agreed deals? Huh.

Also, there are two different deals going on with 1gpt and 3gpt towards Imperio.

mh

[Zeviz]

Proposed new message:

Rabbits,

1. What can we give you for your cash?

2. If you cancel gpt deal with Imeprio we can try to persuade Banana to donate/sell to you Metal Casting and Machinery. (Perhaps as part of agreement to get your cash.)

TeamRB

[sooooo]

Banana can't trade metal casting - it's templars that researched that one. I don't see us persuading them :)

[Zeviz]

Oh well. In that case the only thing we can do is send the two questions. (What they want for cash and what they want to cancel deal with Imperio.)

[Zeviz]

If nobody objects, I'll send the following this evening:

Dear Rabbits,

What can we give you for your cash?

If you can convince Templars to donate you Metal Casting, we'll try to convince Banana to donate you Machinery, so we can sell Engineering, but the Machinery and Engineering trades can happen only if you cancel the deal with Imperio. And talking about that deal, what can we offer you to make the deal with us instead?

TeamRB

[sooooo]

Hmm, not sure about that. Why would templars give metal casting for free when rabbits have 135 gold in the bank?

I would offer aesthetics + drama.

EDIT:


Rabbits,

A final offer for your gold: Aesthetics and Drama. It will have to be done over 2 turns. Let us know either way,

Realms Beyond

[Zeviz]

Instead of "final offer" you can say "another offer". I personally am open to giving them any tech or combination of techs they ask for.

[sooooo]

Email sent with Zeviz's ammendment.

[mostly-harmless]

Rabbits accepted our trade of Aesthetics & HBR for 100 gold (why did we not ask for all their gold?).
I suggest to offer them Literature for their remaining 48gold.
This allows us to stay on Nationalism 100% for the next 3 turns.

We might also start to ask for a potential iron vs horses trade, should we be asked by Banana to give back the iron.

mh