Team Info and Contacts - Templars

[ruff_hi]

Templars

Aidun
Beta (TL)
CerberusIV
classical_hero
conmcb25
GodKing
Hercules (TL)
joncnunn
Locutus
McMeadows
Proviisori
scaeva
Thud
Wittlich

email: templars . btsdg @ gmail . com

[mostly-harmless]

Some info from the Cloak & Dagger thread about our new neighbours.

Settled coastal spot on initial turn 0.
First build was another Quecha. (turn 8)
Research went into Meditation. Buddhism founded on turn 11. But they did not switch to it.
Their capital grows to size 2. (turn 15)
Templars built a third Quecha. (turn 17)
Templars met RealmsBeyond. (turn 17)
Second tech researched. (turn 21)
Popped either one of Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry from a hut. (turn 21)
Templars built a fourth Quecha. (turn 24)
I will keep that post updated as we know more about them.

mh

Update (Oct. 28)

T1 Building quechua
T7 Quechua (#2) -> quechua
T17 Quechua (#3) -> quechua
T24 Quechua (#4) -> worker
T36 Worker -> settler
T48 Settler should be due this turn
T50 Quechua (#5) -> quechua.
T54 Quechua #6 finished. Second worker probably next?
T67 Chariot (Con.) and barracks (Jer.) completed
T71 Axeman trained
T72 Archer trained
T73 Quechua (#7) finished

T55 Settle Constantinople (city #2)

Begin with Mysticism and Agriculture
T1 Researching Polytheism
T11 Polytheism -> Masonry [now it makes sense!]
T21 Pop AH from hut, Masonry -> Monotheism
T34 Monotheism -> Mining
T40 Mining -> Wheel
T47 Wheel -> Bronze Working
T58 Bronze Working discovered
T64 Discover tech with no Soldier points - most likely Pottery
T66 Hunting discovered
T70 Archery discovered


- Sullla

[mostly-harmless]

As for the strategy:

Although they have three Quechas running around, I doubt theywill go on an all out attack on us.
Their units are most likely scattered on scouting missions.

Alternatively, they might have met someone else already and are threating them with Quechas?

I think they are not the worse neighbours to have.
They certainly do not have an outstanding starting position nor are they bending their research towards an early rush.

As founder of a religion, we have the opportunity to team up with them early on. I like Kylearans idea of coming to some peace-ensuring agreement with our neighbours.
We might consider giving them some Cloak & Dagger infos should they for example border next to Imperio.

Obviously we have to expand southward to claim some contested land. That mountain range and the desert look like natural borders.

mh

[Sullla]

Since this thread is a gathering place for info on the Templars, here's some more stuff from various places.

Beta's short explanation of their team philosophy in the public team signup thread: (http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174450)

This is the sign-up thread for the Templars. The team started out as the Children of the Gods, and by post #45 we were the Templars.

Welcome. Keep the Faith!

Our intent is not to insult or ridicule anyone's RL faith. Our intent is solely to have a religious based team for game direction and roleplaying purposes. I apologize now if any affront is taken; please believe that none is intended. If any posts or comments do cause issues, please PM me and I will address them. Thank you.

After reading through their team thread - wow, a tremendous amount of spam in there - I definitely think role-playing more than winning is the team focus. Note that Aidun is on their team, who specifically called out the rest of the team for not being aggressive enough:

In anycase, I'll join this team, and my character shall have no other character than that of the meaning of my name, Aidun, Aidan, Aedan, Aodh: fire. A knight whose passion is with the sword.

[...]Thank you Sir McMeadows for your warm welcome. Pacifism brings me in terrible moods and I am very relieved to meet a fellow knight who understands the sword. I already look forward to ride out to the field of battle with you. The world is harsh, its soil thirsty for blood. Unless we defend the holy truth and our treasures, and all that is holy in this world, those who refuse to pick up their arms will replenish the thirst.

Let the peace of our order spread like a fire, let all armoured men kneel down before our lord and let the divine light shine upon us another day!

However, Unorthodox did not join this team, who was another highly aggressive player.

Returning to our own posters, Swiss Pauli's early assessment of the team:

Templars - Inca - FIN/IND - Quechua

Rush chance: low. Strategy: tech lead via FIN and selected Wonders => Win (Space/Dom/Culture)

My take:

Templars/Inca: This is a good civ to rush with, but I agree with Swiss Pauli's characterization. The list of Templar players doesn't seem to fit the mold of early aggression at all (Locutus is on there, and he was one of the most peaceful players in testing. Spent most of his time modding, of course.) I'm pretty sure that this team picked the Inca for their traits and not their unique unit.

With early research into Meditation and a religious-based theme, it's unlikely that the Templars are going on the offensive early. There's nothing to say that they won't become more warlike later on, however.

[Zeviz]

I agree that we should contact Templars early and try to befriend them. Since they appear to be more interested in RP than in winning, we might be able to befriend them using religious diplomacy. Perhaps even opening borders and inviting them to spread their faith to us. (In BtS religion doesn't give line of sight, so there is no disadvantage.)

In terms of the tone of our diplomatic messages, I'd caution against too much 1984 flavor. Since they are role-playing crusaders, they might decide to "rid the world of our evil". :) So I'd suggest more generic messages, staying in character as much as possible, but downplaying the dystopian part of it. (Especially since we aren't role playing a dystopia anyway, as far as I can see.)

[mostly-harmless]

Time to get ruff back to the game, as he volunteered to be chief diplomat. I wrote him a pm.

I suggest we approach them with a friendly hello.
Polytheism is still out there, so Templars religious aggressiveness can be directed towards the founder of the second faith.

Getting a religion is probably a good idea, as we only have wine and silk as happy resources.
mh

[ruff_hi]

I'll dig out their email and send them a hello. I've already sent other teams a general 'hi' but no-one has responded. I guess they don't know us unless they know us in-game.

Suggested email ...

"Well met Good Sir! It is my outstanding pleasure to meet you and to find you well and good. I look forward to many years of fruitful contact between our great nations.

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team"

[mostly-harmless]

Sounds good.
Lets make sure we send it before this turn is over.

Are you using our team's gmail account?

How would in game contact work? I assume both parties have to be online at the same time to initiate trades etc.?
mh

[ruff_hi]

MP trades (PBEM or pitboss) are really bad and can take several turns. Much better to arrange via email or civstats and then do the deal in-game.

Yes - will be using our gmail account. Draft is in our gmail account - will be sending the email in about 8 hours.

[darrelljs]

Did they respond?

Darrell

[mostly-harmless]

Not to the gmail account up to now. Is it worth to initiate contact in-game via the chat maybe?

mh

[darrelljs]

At the least I would PM someone to let them know they need to check their e-mail.

Darrell

[sooooo]

I sent them an in-game message to check their email.

[Zeviz]

Aidun has just PMed me asking about our official contacts. I directed him towards Ruff and our gmail account, and reposted into PM the email Ruff sent Templars.

So their posted team email might be outdated, or not checked by the right people.

[Zeviz]

We got a reply yesterday:

Dear Ruff, Voice of the Realms Beyond,

We are pleased to have made contact with your Realms. This message is intended to establish formal diplomatic relations. We hope this contact will prove mutually fruitful and that through peaceful coexistance we can together build a glorious future for both our teams.

Until we meet again.

Sincerely,

Sir Aidun
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar
I'd suggest just sending a generic "we come in peace" message and leaving it at that for now. (It seems too early to discuss any serious cooperation, unless you want to already express willingness to accept their religion.)

PS Since we've determined that they don't have contact with anybody else, we probably shouldn't share our knowledge of Imperio's strategy with them.

[mostly-harmless]

I agree with Zeviz.
A basic peaceful message.
I would not mention the religion yet.
And don't give away any other info.

mh

[ruff_hi]

I'll put up a short draft reply in our gmail acct tonight. To be sent tomorrow if everyone is ok with it.

[sooooo]

Contact from the Templars:

Dear Ruff,

Your scout was moved right beside a lion. We are not sure whether this was done intentionally to gain xp, or that it is an accident. We have a quecha on a hill southwest of your scout and would like to come to your aid. For this reason we will move our quecha onto the same (forested) tile as your scout in order to defend him. If your move was intended for xp purposes, you can (assuming, the lion attacks and will be defeated) move southwest. Three tiles exactly in that direction, away from your scout's current position there is another lion.

Something else we would like to share with you is that we have discovered a yellow civ to our northeast, straight east from your scout's current position. We have not yet moved in such a way that we can see its territory, because we wish not to announce our presence to them and do not want them to know of our presence. Therefore, should you have a desire to explore in that direction, please to not inform that civ of our presence.

Also, in your email of 19 May, you mentioned something about exchange of ideas and stories. What did you have in mind about that?

Until we meet gain,

Sir Aidun,
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar

[sooooo]

This is very useful information methinks. Tracy is planning on moving eastwards but will be heading into open ground so it is useful to know that there is another lion out there. Also it is extremely valuable infomation that there is another yellow civ to the east of Tracy.

I do not know what information we could offer in return. We could tell them that we know of no other civs and are at the end of a peninsular. That would give them less incentive to scout our land which I think would be a good thing. If they scout our land early they could be tempted to settle in our direction.

Perhaps we could suggest that we could look to adopt and spread their religion in the future.

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by sooooo
We could tell them that we know of no other civs and are at the end of a peninsular. That would give them less incentive to scout our land which I think would be a good thing. If they scout our land early they could be tempted to settle in our direction.

Perhaps we could suggest that we could look to adopt and spread their religion in the future.

Wow...those guys are really nice. They'll probably finish last. I agree with both of sooooo's ideas. It gives the illusion of quid pro quo while actually serving our interests.

Darrell

[Sullla]

Originally posted by sooooo
I do not know what information we could offer in return. We could tell them that we know of no other civs and are at the end of a peninsular. That would give them less incentive to scout our land which I think would be a good thing. If they scout our land early they could be tempted to settle in our direction.

I would definitely mention something along these lines in the response. It gives little information away while sounding magnanimous. I wouldn't mention their religion though, since we should continue to pretend that we don't know that they have it. (Wait until they raise the issue first.) I would also make sure to thank them for moving their quechua to help defend Tracy. :)

The "yellow civ" to the east is clearly PAL. That's somewhat bad news; I was hoping we would draw Banana or Rabbits as the other civ on our island (especially Rabbits, since they have a history of feuding with Templars). Unlike the Templars, I think we should push on with our scout and try to meet them immediately. Since contact will happen sooner or later anyway, it's generally to our advantage to make it happen sooner. (With the Templars in the unenviable "middle" part of the continent, they would be the ones to be attacked first in the event of an early rush. We should be far enough away to be safe for now.)

Also note that we would gain 1 beaker/turn in bonus research on techs known by both Templars and PAL, simply for meeting them. While that is ultimately minor, every little bit helps (11 -> 12 beakers/turn is significant at this point in the game.)

EDIT: darrell and I cross-posted with essentially the same ideas. :D

[mostly-harmless]

I was looking for Ruff's draft but could not find it.
Then saw the Templars message and headed over here.

I agree that they leave a good first impression.
About telling them what our land looks like:
We approached them from the west deliberately, trying to disguise our whereabouts.
I am against giving away map info to them at the moment.
Also, don't mention the religion, yet.

I would tell them that we are generally open minded and will meet the other civ. We can then disclose the identity of the new neighbours back to the Templars.

The yellow civ could be either PAL or Rabbits.
I think we should go ahead and meet them soonest.
We can again try our trick with approaching them from the southwest maybe. (from the Templar direction, luring their interest towards the Templars.)

I would hold back on embracing the Templars as best buddies until we met the other civ.
We are likely to compete with the Templars over land tiles, so might be better off teaming up with someone else.

These are of course the paranoid opinions of the hawks in the Ministry of Truth.

mh

[sooooo]

We approached them from the west deliberately, trying to disguise our whereabouts.
I am against giving away map info to them at the moment.

This is not really a trick. We kind of are west of them. Approaching them from the west is not going to make them think we are due west, they will think we are over there somewhere which we are. Do you disagree with the benefits of saying that we are on a peninsular and do not know any other civs, trying to put them off scouting our land and making them like us for giving information? I don't see any downsides and see many upsides to telling them this.

I agree with thanking them for protecting our scout and for their map info.

[mostly-harmless]

I agree with thanking them for their map info, although seeing our scout is headed east anyway, the value is not very high.
Furthermore I believe our scout did not need protection, but appreciate their gesture. Against animals the scout stands as good a chance as a Quecha I think.

I am against giving away the map info.
First of all for the info to be meaningful to them, we need to also provide a rough location and direction of the peninsula.

Their units scouting around our territory is not necessarily a bad thing as it reduces the barb threat.

Furthermore, the Templars will recognize our need to push towards the south, especially the spot Sullla has identified, if they know we are coming from the cold north, being cut off good lands on at least two sides.

I rather have their 1 move Quechas jogging around land we already scouted than have them jogging around land with potential goodie huts.

mh

[Zeviz]

I would also vote for giving them map info.

Looking like nice guys could be the best defense. With this single friendly gesture, Templars made us think that they aren't a threat. Similarly, if we seem completely open, we'll give them the same feeling.

And if we establish a good relationship with them, we might be able to get Sulla's spot without a military confrontation. (Since they are hiding from their other neighbor, they are not interested in conflict with us. So we could push them pretty hard peacefully, as long as we promise not to ally with their enemy.)

[ruff_hi]

draft reply in gmail account for your comments.

"Sir Aidun,

Thank you very much for the help that you provided Tracy (our scout). My understanding is that the lion contact was unintentional and we thank you for the cover that your unit provided.

The information about the civilization that is to your Northeast is very generous. I am not sure if we have similar information that we can share. We will certainly not explicitly mention your presence to this other civilization. Would you like us to inform you regarding their nature if we do meet them?

Our contact of May 19th ... "We look forward to meeting you 'in-game' and building an open and free exchange of information, ideas and stories." ... was not intended as exchanging explicit items, but rather an expression of our desire and intentions.

Regards,

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team"

[mostly-harmless]

The draft reply looks good.
I am in favor.
This being a democracy game, I will bow to the decision of the majority of course.
See my reluctance to give away infos as a necessary trait to run the ministry of truth. ;-)

mh

[Zeviz]

Ruff, thanks for the draft. It is well-written, but I would prefer a more cooperative message:

I'd suggest a more open "unfortunately, we don't have information about any other civilizations" instead of "I am not sure if we have similar information that we can share." The way you phrased it, sounds like we are hiding something.

Similarly, I wouldn't include the last paragraph with its disclaimer. (It sounds very bad when after they did something nice for us we say "never mind, our offer of cooperation shouldn't be taken literally".)

The tone of this message seems to me like it's politely telling them that we aren't interested in cooperation, which is the opposite of the impression we want to make.

[ruff_hi]

edited draft:

Sir Aidun,

Thank you very much for the help that you provided Tracy (our scout). My understanding is that the lion contact was unintentional and we thank you for the cover that your unit provided.

The information about the civilization that is to your Northeast is very generous. Currently, your civilization is the only one that we have contacted. Regarding the 'yellow civ', we will certainly not explicitly mention your presence to this other civilization. Would you like us to inform you regarding their nature if we do meet them?

Our contact of May 19th ... "We look forward to meeting you 'in-game' and building an open and free exchange of information, ideas and stories." ... was not intended as exchanging explicit items, but rather an expression of our desire and intentions. It is our hope that as our mutual civilizations grow, we can share to our mutual benefit.

Regards,

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[darrelljs]

I like the edited version very much!

Darrell

[Zeviz]

I like this draft much better, but I still don't understand the need for the disclaimer paragraph. Why do we have to include this disclaimer?

[Sullla]

I like the edited version as well, and am not concerned about the disclaimer Zeviz mentioned. (I didn't even notice it until re-reading a second time.) As far as one of Zeviz's other suggestions:

And if we establish a good relationship with them, we might be able to get Sulla's spot without a military confrontation. (Since they are hiding from their other neighbor, they are not interested in conflict with us. So we could push them pretty hard peacefully, as long as we promise not to ally with their enemy.)

I like the idea very much. :) Remember, the Templars picked a Financial/Industrious civ (Inca). That, along with what we know of their player roster and religious focus, suggests that they aren't interested in being aggressive. In fact, I'd give good odds that they will try to go for Stonehenge or the Oracle early on, to get a Prophet for their shrine. That would give us the green light to push expansion towards their capital early on, without needing to fear too much about defense.

Remember, possession is 90% of the law. We are Creative, and we can stake a powerful claim to the land with those rapid-expanding borders. Unless we grant them Open Borders, the Templars cannot see inside our cities. So long as our power graph is roughly equal to theirs on the Demographics screen, they almost certainly won't attack. While they are off founding religions and building wonders, we should go into Civ3 settler spam mode, and claim everything not nailed down! :D

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Originally posted by darrelljs
Wow...those guys are really nice. They'll probably finish last.
Not necessarily. Making friends is key in a demogame, and it's not that they gifted us a city or something like that. It's little actions and friendly wordings like this that builds up trust and might lead to something like a research pact later, if desired. For that reason, I like Ruff's second wording much better - I think we should come across friendly and open-minded. I even would go so far to offer them some info in return soon. Nothing major, ideally something that looks more valuable than it is in reality, but which leaves open the possibility for getting an ally if needed.

We can still backstab them later, if needed. ;)

-Kylearan

[Zeviz]

What about giving them a hint to research AH after we know where copper is? It will look very helpful, but will direct their expansion away from us, and chances are they'll learn the tech soon anyway, so this advice will have little practical value.

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by Zeviz
What about giving them a hint to research AH after we know where copper is? It will look very helpful, but will direct their expansion away from us, and chances are they'll learn the tech soon anyway, so this advice will have little practical value.

That's very sneaky :eek:. If we are going to hint, might as well tell them the exact location.

Darrell

[mostly-harmless]

Can we wait until we have secured a source of copper before handing them chariots & horse archers on a plate?

mh

[sunrise089]

Wow, lots of responses here.

I'm not sure why the map info isn't included in Ruff's draft. My understanding is that the consensus leads towards including it.

My suggestion would be to offer the map info now, and then later send an email with the name of the Yellow Civ and the Animal Husbandry reccomendation and then ask for the religion spread. To me, that seems very quid pro quo and the timing allows us to have spotted the religion in their capital without revealing our Ministry of Truth info.

[sooooo]

Yes, it would be nice to offer them the location of some steeds (they are knights templar after all!) and ask in return for a few missionaries when they get the technology. Then settle the nice spot Sullla was talking about!

BTW, the second draft Ruff put up is already sent. Saying that we do not know any other civs in kind of the same as saying we are on a peninsular.

[ruff_hi]

check those that you agree with ... next email to templars after our contact with yellow civ should include the following:

1) general map info, peninsular, etc
2) our knowledge of their religion
3) request for religion if and when they discover it
4) horses near their capital
5) location of horses
6) particulars of yellow civ

[Zeviz]

1. Yes, as that will explain why we want to expand towards them.

2. Only if we see it in their city.

3. Yes, only if including 2.

4. Yes, adding a role playing element of "our scout, thankful for her rescue, reports that she has seen some strange animals north-east of your capital. These animals might help you deal with [incert the name of "yellow civ" here].

5. See above. (Not exact location, but the fact that they are north-east of the capital.)

6. Yes.

[sunrise089]

Agree 100% w/ Zevis

[Kylearan]

I agree with Zeviz on all points as well. I very much like the idea about hinting about the horses, even if it won't work (they could go for BW/copper nonetheless, and/or might have delayed AH for a little while longer if not for our hint). If it does though, it would be a fantastic case of subtle diplomatic manipulation. :D

-Kylearan

[mostly-harmless]

Since we will wait until meeting yellow civ, that buys us some time.
Maybe we can trade screenshots of the map between Templars & yellow civ, and subtle hint on the horses.

mh

[sooooo]

We now know for sure that the Templars have founded Buddhism.

1) That we are on a peninsular with no contact with other civs yet.
2) Yes
3) Yes, ask for a missionary or two in the future
4) Yes
5) Say it's shortly north of the capital
6) Maybe in the future when we meet that civ

I would send the email this turn, and thank the brave quechua for saving our scout.

[ruff_hi]

draft email:

Sir Aidun,

Our scout, Tracy, would like to thank your brave Quecha for his actions regarding the lion by offering the following local knowledge: "There are some large four legged animals to your city's North East. They look particularly fast and might make good steeds in the future."

If you don't mind, we took a quick peek at Jerusalem and saw that you landed a religion - congratulations. We would be interested in a missionary at your convenience.

I'll let you know 'yellow civ' details when we find them. Would you be interested in a map of their location? [Out of Character: a screenshot, not an in-game trade of maps - what are the rules for this?]

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[Zeviz]

Good message.

Is it possible to rewrite second paragraph to be more in character?

Something like "When passing by Jerusalem, Tracy heard sounds of distant prayer and saw signs of magnificent ceremonies. Our people were so impressed by her stories, that they would gladly hear more from your wise men, if they wish to visit our cities."

[sunrise089]

Originally posted by Zeviz
Good message.

Is it possible to rewrite second paragraph to be more in character?

Something like "When passing by Jerusalem, Tracy heard sounds of distant prayer and saw signs of magnificent ceremonies. Our people were so impressed by her stories, that they would gladly hear more from your wise men, if they wish to visit our cities."

I also favor the line about being on a peninsula with no other civs contacted.

[mostly-harmless]

Do we want to send a screenshot with this eMail to show them the horses?
I think it is a nice idea.
We can make it a bit in a style of an ancient map.

Otherwise, I agree with the draft.

mh

[sooooo]

I think a screenshot may show too much information about how we've scouted. They could purposely reveal the tiles we haven't revealed to find more huts.

[mostly-harmless]

Yep, right. I meant like a local screenshot showing their surroundings with the horses and then an arrow pointing north west annotated "Realms Beyond up there".

mh

[sooooo]

Yes, that's what I thought you meant. But still a local map of their surroundings will show where we haven't scouted yet.

[ruff_hi]

updated draft ... I plan to send it later this evening (about 6 hrs time)


Sir Aidun,

Our scout, Tracy, would like to thank your brave Quecha for his actions regarding the lion by offering the following local knowledge: "There are some large four legged animals to your city's North East. They look particularly fast and might make good steeds in the future."

When passing by Jerusalem, Tracy heard sounds of prayer and signs of some type of ceremonies. She was impressed and included this information in her reports back to our people. We, too, are impressed and would like to hear more from you about these occurrences.

I'll let you know 'yellow civ' details when we find them.

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[darrelljs]

I'll place my rubber stamp on that draft ;).

Darrell

[sooooo]

Sound great, Ruff!

[Zeviz]

This draft looks good.

[mostly-harmless]

Reply looks good.
mh

[Sullla]

Since we're in a quiet period right now between turns, I'll ask the obvious question: did the Templars ever respond to our last message? And if not, maybe we should remind them to check their email again... ;)

[mostly-harmless]

No they have not replied, yet. That is around 80 years (three days) since our messenger set out. I will leave the reminding to Ruff.

mh

[ruff_hi]

no reply as of this afternoon - who did we 'bump' last time?

[Zeviz]

Originally posted by ruff_hi
no reply as of this afternoon - who did we 'bump' last time?
Aidun is their ambassador. (And probably one of the most active players on the team.)

Since it took us several days to formulate our reply, despite not running any formal votes, we shouldn't expect a response in less than a week. Can you imagine how long our reply would have taken if we required a vote by every team member on each draft? So I wouldn't push them unless they are taking over a week.

[ruff_hi]

wasn't going to push - just request a 'got it' sort of note back. I think I will put that on the bottom of each of our outgoing emails from now on.

[mostly-harmless]

Interestingly the Templars message about mentioning a yellow civ nearby misled us into believing the yellow civ would be on the same continent and in fact produced statements like this from leading chieftains of our tribe:
"I am glad we aren't on the same continent with Imperio.", Zeviz

mh

[mostly-harmless]

Is it worth informing Templars about Imperio before they met next turn to gain additional plus points with them?
If so we have to react quickly, as only the Templars have to finish the current turn.

mh

[Zeviz]

Might as well send them a quick note. It is another of those little things that don't cost us anything, but look very nice.

[mostly-harmless]

Too late now as they have met, but we can still inform them about yellow civ being PAL.
Still no reply from them, btw.

mh

[ruff_hi]

email sent to templar re PAL

Sorry for being a bit tardy here ... I was working on the wife's web site all of yesterday, who knew that trying to get a book published would involve so much work? Well, actually ... I suppose that I did.

[ruff_hi]

new email draft ready ...

Sir Aidun,

Its been a while and I wanted to check that you were still there. We at Realms Beyond are wondering how you are progressing and if you have any news to exchange? Lets keep in regular contact.

Cheers,

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[Sullla]

Pretty good, but I would add a sentence congratulating them on their new faith. Probably done in some sort of hokey role-playing way. :)

[mostly-harmless]

Please also request a notification that they have received the message.

mh

[ruff_hi]

Will include request. Did I miss something - they got another religion? It's hard keeping up with what is going on - might log into the game tonight and have a poke around.

[sooooo]

A reply from the Templars:

Dear Ruff,

It has been quite some time ago since we last had contact, due to my holiday and other things. I hope your team has fared well. Do you have any plans for a holiday? Many thanks for supplying us with information about the 'yellow civ', PAL.

Ingame a lot of things have happened since we last exchanged emails. As you have seen, we have found your team's location and as we did, we coincidentally got in touch with Imperio, which we have located since. Imperio is located east of you, northeast of us and northwest of PAL. We assume you have noticed that Imperio has built Stonehenge.

We were wondering how you feel about Imperio. Did the diplomacy fare well so far? Do you know something about them that you might like to share with us? Do you perhaps have any knowledge of other teams aside from Imperio and PAL?

Best,

Sir Aidun
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar

[ruff_hi]

have a quick draft that is ready to go ... Sir Aidun,

Thanks for the follow-up. Only a short note at the moment - will need to discuss with team. However, it seems that the 3 people on our land mass have all met. We've met PAL (as you know). We noted the building of Stonehenge but were a bit surprised that it wasn't your city that built it.

Beginnings can be difficult times.

Cheers,

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[Zeviz]

I don't think we should tell them that we were expecting them to go for stonehenge. Aside from that, the draft looks good.

[sooooo]

We were wondering how you feel about Imperio. Did the diplomacy fare well so far? Do you know something about them that you might like to share with us?

What do we think the point of this question is? I'm wondering if they've noticed that Imperio are skipping turns and plan to go on the offensive against them in the future. That would be one reason to ask how our relations with them are. If they do attack Imperio, we may wish to dogpile them and negotiate with the Templars who gets to keep which cities (this is obviously for the future and not to be mentioned in emails).

What about thethe following Paragraph:

Regarding your questions, we do not know of any other civs other than the ones you mentioned. Thanks for the information on Imperio - we have located them too. We can tell you that their capital has floodplains and gold. Contact with them has been sparse. Why do you ask?

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by Zeviz
I don't think we should tell them that we were expecting them to go for stonehenge.I added Sooooo's comment and question. I actually like the reference to stonehenge, just trying to keep them on their feet regarding our ability to read the game, work out things, etc. Did they get a cash bump when Imp finished the 'henge? Can we tell if they got a cash bump?

[mostly-harmless]

Originally posted by ruff_hi
I added Sooooo's comment and question. I actually like the reference to stonehenge, just trying to keep them on their feet regarding our ability to read the game, work out things, etc. Did they get a cash bump when Imp finished the 'henge? Can we tell if they got a cash bump?

I am against the Stonehenge reference.
We (C&D) are 95% certain that Templars never attempted Stonehenge.

Perhaps make the statement less specific:
"We are following with interest the religious focus of our neighbours."

mh

[sooooo]

It's not a particularly wild thought to think Templars were building stonehenge. They are industrious and founded a religion. You don't need a ministry of truth to postulate that.

[ruff_hi]

draft updated ...Sir Aidun,

Thanks for the follow-up. Only a short note at the moment - will need to discuss with team. However, it seems that the 3 people on our land mass have all met. We've met PAL (as you know). We noted the building of Stonehenge and are following with interest the religious focus of our neighbours.

Regarding your questions, we do not know of any other civs other than the ones you mentioned. Thanks for the information on Imperio - we have located them too. We can tell you that their capital has floodplains and gold. Contact with them has been sparse. Why do you ask?

Beginnings can be difficult times.

Cheers,

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[Zeviz]

Sounds good.

[mostly-harmless]

Originally posted by sooooo
It's not a particularly wild thought to think Templars were building stonehenge. They are industrious and founded a religion.
True, but there are two more industrious civs out there, plus two more civs which started with Mysticism and Imperio the only civ that can chop at the moment.
We know it would have taken Templars ca. 23 turns to complete Stonehenge, considerably stalling their expansion.

You don't need a ministry of truth to postulate that.
Correct, the ministry of truth is on record for doubting the "Stonehenge next" theory right from the beginning.

Anyway, I like the draft message, but would replace "3 people" with "3 civs".

mh

[ruff_hi]

changed people to civs and sent the email.

[ruff_hi]

reply ...Dear Ruff,

I'm not sure what you mean by "will need to discuss with team" - do you refer to a discussion of my previous email, or just ordinary team discussion? In the case of the former, we'll wait with interest.

The reason I asked about your team's diplomatic contact with Imperio is because ours is somewhat hindered by a language barrier. We speak no Spanish and they speak little English. Just like your team's contact with them, ours has been sparse too.

Thanks for the info about Imperio's capital. The combination of floodplains, gold and some nice hills and forest around seems like a good combination.

As for our religious focus, we are the Knights Templar, a religious order, and so religion plays an important role in our lives. Religion can unite and divide. Since, however, we do not associate ourselves with one religion in particular, we are openminded and hope religion can help unite rather than divide the world in which we live.

Best,

Sir Aidun

[regoarrarr]

Thoughts on how should we respond to their recent reply about our settling in the south?

[ruff_hi]

from Templar

Dear Ruff,

We feel we need to contact your team urgently because of your plans of building a new city south of your capitol. We realize that it is every team's right to build new cities, and we have no intention at all, to deny you that right, but we do question the wisdom of your current settlement plan. Likewise, your team is not obliged to inform its neighbors of any settlement plans, but in some cases it is perhaps better to do so. We find it peculiar that you have not informed us and attempted to settle in secrecy while we have a quecha nearby. We are deeply concerned and alarmed by the unexpectedness of your move and we are considering how to respond. In great part this depends on your reply.

The mapmaker placed our civs close to each other and we have to live with that, but we assume that you understand that the territory between our capitols is for that reason a disputed one. Your decision to settle straight into the direction of our capital is in that light remarkable. What do we have to think of it? Is it an act of agression, a forward base from which to deploy units?

We ask ourselves what we have done wrong to deserve agression? Or do we perhaps misunderstand intentions you have as of yet not communicated to us? We have peaceful intentions, especially with your people, and would like to continue the mutually beneficial ad-hoc cooperation that has characterized our relations since the start. If possible, we would love to enter in more formal cooperation, but we have so far waited to announce this, trusting on the aforementioned ad-hoc cooperation.

We certainly hope that we will not have to resort to military means to solve this problem.

We urge you, in the name of peace, friendship and our good intentions to your team to respond to this message as soon as possible, at least before next turn, and to propose a solution to the problem at hand. Let us please continue the cooperation thusfar and possibly expand it.

Regards,


Aidun
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar

[ruff_hi]

Initial response ...

Email received. I'm just a spokesman for TRB and will need to get information from the team planners regarding some of your issues. I'll get back to you as soon as possible.


fuller response ... really need team input on this ...

Thanks for reaching out regarding our settler and presentation of your concerns. As you know, we have quite a number of scouts out and have a good view of the land. The land to our North is (by and large) a ice wasteland. The land to our West and East has some attractions but nothing major. The land to our South, while towards your Capital, does hold our desired second city site. We have specifically identified a site that contains no strategic resources (metal, horses, stone, ivory, marble) so as to pose as small a threat as possible.

We too have peaceful intentions, thus the careful site selection. We also were not trying to hide our settler (you will note that he did stop within site of your unit), rather to avoid barbarians as he was unprotected for some of his journey.

Further, we expected that your first expansion would be towards the strategic resources to your North East and that the site we have selected was not in dispute.

[Sullla]

Heh. Templars are full of bullsh*t, is what they are. ;) "Oh, I'm sorry, we'll just sit around in our desert/tundra wasteland, which has no resources whatsoever, and leave you all of that lush grassland in the south. Feel free to take as much time playing around with religions as you like." Bah! :rolleyes:

More seriously, Ruff's initial draft seems pretty good. I would add something like this in there somewhere:

"I'm sure you have discovered by now that our continent is fairly small; there are few directions that we could move our settler that would NOT be towards your capital."

We should also stress multiple times that we do not intend this as an aggressive act, but only as a means to claim a fair share of the land for ourselves. I think the draft does an adequate job of that, just could be even stronger. I don't think it's out of line either to state (politely) that we are under no obligation to tell the Templars where we plan on settling cities. After all, they haven't informed us of any of their plans, have they?

We can also mention that we contacted them several times without getting much of a response. We've desired close cooperation all along, but this is the first time that they've seemed to take any kind of interest in replying promptly. If that southern region was supposed to be "their" land, why didn't they tell us sooner? We could have worked out an agreement had our team known. [A total lie, but they don't have to know that!] Since we received no messages on the issue, our team assumed that each civ was free to settle as they saw fit. Tell that something like that...

I personally think they're a bunch of whiners who are complaining only because they picked a lousy opening strategy. But we don't have to tell them THAT. :cute:

If the Templars are going to freak out about this, we should step up our diplomacy with Imperio proptly. I know we mostly envisioned working together with the Templars, but we can swap that around fairly easily to the other team on the continent. At the very least, I think we should inform Imperio (en Espanol) of what is going on, so that the Templars don't try to poison them against us. We can present their demands as unreasonable and flip it around so that ye old religious team comes off as the bad guys. darrell, is that something you might be able to draw up? :)

[darrelljs]

I'd go one step further and offer a pact of non-aggression for, say, 100 turns. I'd suggest the continent is only large enough for two civs and offer to divy it up accordingly, ceding all lands east and offering to help claim those lands from Imperio.

Of course, we don't plan on keeping to this pact past the 50 turns and all the land is ours, but they don't need to know that until we have Iron :evilgrin:.

Darrell

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by Sullla
At the very least, I think we should inform Imperio (en Espanol) of what is going on, so that the Templars don't try to poison them against us. We can present their demands as unreasonable and flip it around so that ye old religious team comes off as the bad guys. darrell, is that something you might be able to draw up? :)

Sure, but it wouldn't be until Sunday probably; my daughter's birthday is today and we have a party on Saturday. Just a list of the points to make in the message and I should be able to cook something decent up.

Darrell

[ruff_hi]

draft in our gmail acct - not sent

I've always tried to couch my words as if I am on their team, but actually positioned on TRB. Thus build the trust between myself and their team and maybe gather some information that they didn't want to let slip. Hence some of my comments below ...
Sir Aidun,

Thanks for reaching out regarding our settler and presentation of your concerns. Firstly, this is not an aggressive act, it is not intended to be read as an aggressive act and (truth be told) our team has tried very hard to ensure that it is not observed as an aggressive act.

I'm sure you have discovered by now that our continent is fairly small; there are few directions that we could move our settler that would NOT be towards your capital. Also, we have quite a number of scouts out and have a good view of the land. The land to our North is (by and large) a ice wasteland. The land to our West and East has some attractions but nothing major. The land to our South, while towards your Capital, does hold our desired second city site. We have specifically identified a site that contains no strategic resources (metal, horses, stone, ivory, marble) so as to pose as small a threat as possible. Again, our actions are not designed to be an aggressive act in any way.

We too have peaceful intentions, thus the careful site selection and the attempt to open discussion with you. It gladdens us that you have responded so quickly rather than the usual response time that we have grown accustom to with you. Further, we also were not trying to hide our settler (you will note that he did stop within sight of your unit), rather our aim was to avoid barbarians as he was unprotected for some of his journey.

Finally, we expected that your first expansion would be towards the strategic resources to your North East and that the site we have selected was not in dispute.

Regarding the future: your communication implies that we should be sharing our plans with you? Personally, I'm not convinced that you actually meant this, but my Team has asked for clarification. Truth be told, members of my team were actually very upset about this statement and there were heated comments about "are we meant to be there vassal?". Some saner heads poured water on this but I was asked to ask for clarification.

Also, some members of my team raised the possibility of a non-aggressive pact between our two teams. We would like to discuss this with you, including the meaning of 'non-aggression', the pact timetable, renewal options, etc.

I didn't know how true this was when I wrote it but ... beginnings can be difficult times.

Cheers,

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[Zeviz]

Ruff, the draft looks very good.

I'd also mention the desert to our south, saying something like this: "As you might have seen by now, our capital is stuck on a narrow fertile strip between tundra to the north and desert to the south, with only a few viable city sites between the ocean to the east and west. So the only good city sites close to us are in the south-western corner of the continent. You, on the other hand, have plenty of good land on 3 sides."

By the way, was the misspelling in the vassals "quote" intentional? :p

EDIT: Please remove the comment about not trying to hide our settler. Such obviously false statements damage our credibility without any benefit in return.

If we were just trying to protect the settler, he should have joined the warrior in the spot where it was fortified, instead of losing warrior's fortification bonus just to move him out of sight. It's obvious to Templars that there were no animals nearby, because they can see all the spots that could threaten our warrior. So the statement about hiding from animals is obviously false, and damages the credibility of the rest of our message. If there is no good response, it's best to avoid the issue.

EDIT2: Or you could just be completely honest and say that our original movement plan would have a settler spend a turn on flat ground next to their quecha, and we didn't want to test their friendhip in such a way. There is no reason to hide the truth when the truth is far better that what people will think if the lie is caught.

Originally posted by darrelljs
I'd go one step further and offer a pact of non-aggression for, say, 100 turns. I'd suggest the continent is only large enough for two civs and offer to divy it up accordingly, ceding all lands east and offering to help claim those lands from Imperio.

Of course, we don't plan on keeping to this pact past the 50 turns and all the land is ours, but they don't need to know that until we have Iron :evilgrin:.

Darrell
No. It might be necessary to rush a neighbor when you are in the corner, but this kind of backstubbing adds nothing to the game except steering up anger. I might understand this if we were pushed into a corner with no other way out, but this is not the case here. Are we really afraid that we can't defeat even a team of roleplayers and a semi-inactive team without having to resort to backstubs?

EDIT3 (I am on a roll here :) )
Think of what our move must have looked like to Templars: We are by far #1 on power graph, and now we are trying to sneak a settler almost directly towards their capital. We also felt confident enough about our power to point out the location of their horses. So they are probably as worried about us as we were worried about Imperio.

[Sullla]

Regarding the future: your communication implies that we should be sharing our plans with you? Personally, I'm not convinced that you actually meant this, but my Team has asked for clarification. Truth be told, members of my team were actually very upset about this statement and there were heated comments about "are we meant to be there vassal?". Some saner heads poured water on this but I was asked to ask for clarification.

:lol: I really like this for some reason. Whether it was a mistake or not, definitely keep the "there" misspelling in place. That's priceless. :D Nothing like making your foes think there is dissention where none exists.

I'll also add that I like Zeviz's edit #2 as far as explaining the conduct of our settler. We trust the Templars, but we're not taking any silly risks with our first settler either.

We should *NOT* enter into any agreements we flagrantly don't intend to keep. We definitely don't want to be known as the team who can't be trusted, or the "backstabbing" team. I certainly don't want to see us pinned down with some sort of inflexible 100 turn agreement. Better to keep things nice and vague, so we can claim later that we were never really allied with the Templars...

Someone else is going to have to handle the dealings with Imperio, as I'll be away all next week on vacation. Sorry! :)

[ruff_hi]

updated draft retaining the unintentional spelling mistake :D
Sir Aidun,

Thanks for reaching out regarding our settler and presentation of your concerns. Firstly, this is not an aggressive act, it is not intended to be read as an aggressive act and (truth be told) our team has tried very hard to ensure that it is not observed as an aggressive act.

I'm sure you have discovered by now that our continent is fairly small; there are few directions that we could move our settler that would NOT be towards your capital. Also, we have quite a number of scouts out and have a good view of the land. The land to our North is (by and large) a ice wasteland. The land to our West and East has some attractions but nothing major. The land to our South, while towards your Capital, does hold our desired second city site. We have specifically identified a site that contains no strategic resources (metal, horses, stone, ivory, marble) so as to pose as small a threat as possible. Again, our actions are not designed to be an aggressive act in any way.

We too have peaceful intentions, thus the careful site selection and the attempt to open discussion with you. It gladdens us that you have responded so quickly rather than the usual response time that we have grown accustom to with you.

Regarding our settler movement, our original movement plan would have put him on flat ground next to your quecha for a turn and we didn't want to test our friendship in such a way.

Finally, we expected that your first expansion would be towards the strategic resources to your North East and that the site we have selected was not in dispute.

Regarding the future: your communication implies that we should be sharing our plans with you? Personally, I'm not convinced that you actually meant this, but my Team has asked for clarification. Truth be told, members of my team were actually very upset about this statement and there were heated comments about "are we meant to be there vassal?". Some saner heads poured water on this but I was asked to ask for clarification.

Also, some members of my team raised the possibility of a non-aggressive pact between our two teams. We would like to discuss this with you, including the meaning of 'non-aggression', the pact timetable, renewal options, etc.

I didn't know how true this was when I wrote it but ... beginnings can be difficult times.

Cheers,

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[Zeviz]

Looks good. :)

[ruff_hi]

above version sent.

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by darrelljs
I'd go one step further and offer a pact of non-aggression for, say, 100 turns. I'd suggest the continent is only large enough for two civs and offer to divy it up accordingly, ceding all lands east and offering to help claim those lands from Imperio.

Of course, we don't plan on keeping to this pact past the 50 turns and all the land is ours, but they don't need to know that until we have Iron :evilgrin:.

Hmm...I actually meant we keep the pact; I changed the suggested duration from 100 to 50 in the second paragraph but not the first. As evidence to my innocence I point out the phrasing "we don't plan on keeping the pact past the 50 turns". If I had meant to break the pact I would have said "we don't plan on keeping the pact past 50 turns" ;).

Darrell

[ruff_hi]

new email from templars ...
Dear Ruff,

I will send you a message shortly. Unnecessary to say, but we have of course had fierce debate and discussion and it is now my duty to form of that a coherent proposal. I am waiting for the final comments from the team on my proposal, as our democracy requires, before I can send it away. You will receive a letter from me shortly.

Regards,


Sir Aidun
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar.

[ruff_hi]

email from templars ... I'm going to mark it up with paragraph numbers (the little <?>s) for better discussion ...

Dear Ruff,

<1> Thank you for your very informative letter, the information has provided us a better understanding of the situation and especially how your team has also considered our interests when deciding on the location of your new city. First in this letter I want to address two issues with respect to the current situation. Second, I will touch upon your suggestions for future cooperation.

<2> One thing I wish to clarify now already is that my team does not demand that you share (all) your plans with us. We do not expect such from an equal and fully sovereign neighboring team. What I have tried to say, and which I should perhaps have clarified better, is that in some occasions, depending on your own judgement, not ours, you might want to share information about your plans, on your own initiative, not per our request. The same is true for us. Such sharing of information between our teams could have avoided the little crisis we have at this moment, and will likely help to avoid potential future crises.

<3> We suppose your intention is to settle on the hill towards which your settler seems to be heading, to build a city that has the combined benefits of the cow and rice. We would rather see that you would settle closer to your capital, but that decision is not up to us. Despite your explanation, we still think that your plan to build your new city far to the south challenges us in a way we had not expected from your team. We will, however, not respond to it militarily.

<4> As a solution to the crisis you have offered a Non Agression Pact. We think this is a good initiative, but it does not really solve the issue of the land problem. Therefore we think such a NAP should be accompanied by a border agreement as well, so we can evenly divide the land on this island. There is, however, a problem: we do not have full information about the land that surrounds you, mainly to the west and southeast. We need such information first before we can sign a border agreement and a NAP.

<5> The general issue of settlement and land of course plays against the background of competition on this island and the chances of winning in the game. Just like yourselves we cannot afford a neighboring team, no matter how friendly, to get more and better land than we (can) get. We also cannot afford them to build cities on strategic spots. That whole matter would be less a problem when this friendly neighboring team would be a long-term ally, perhaps for the rest of the game. Under such conditions, we would profit from the well-bing of our ally, for which land division and settlement are essential. Such an alliance would take more or less the shape our cooperation has taken so far, only in a more coordinated way. Besides, we would agree to defend each other in case one of us is attacked by another team. The goal of the alliance would be to turn the current competition between our civs in a structured cooperation from which we can both benefit more than the current competition. My team would be positive to such an alliance and we would like to hear your ideas regarding it.

Beginnings can be difficult times indeed, very true and well written.


Best,

Sir Aidun
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar

I've acknowledged receipt.

Sir Aidun,

Just a short note to acknowledge receipt of your communication. I have circulated it to our government and we are discussing it.

Ruff

My comments ... re <2> in response to my vassal comment - we win the diplomatic game as they have acknowledged us as equals. I feel this is important since they are role playing so heavily.

re <3>, note the last sentence. Thank you Sullla and his bluff!

<4> is, I feel, a backwards way of asking us to share maps. Maybe we can show them what is to their East.

<5> is a complete ramble and hard to pick apart - guess they are asking about the possibility of a long term plan.

I wonder where Impala (the other civ on our land) figures in their calculation ... hmmn

[Zeviz]

#5 sounds like an offer of either a Defensive Pact, or a Permanent Alliance. (To translate it into in-game terms.) To be very blunt about it, I'd prefer a long-term ally who is more committed to winning the game. (Even if we have to fight our ally in the end, it's better to have strong partner with whom we can be the last 2 teams standing, than to have a weak partner we have to defend all the time.)

#4 says (quite reasonably) that they are unwilling to sign NAP without negotiating the borders first, and are unable to negotiate the borders without full map information.

In response, perhaps we can let them know that the southern "half" of the continent contains most of the cottageable land, while our start is on a peninsula with room for only a couple cottage locations. I'd be very non-committal about possibilities of an alliance, perhaps saying directly that we need to better understand long-term diplomatic picture before we can make any long-term decisions.

[Sullla]

Let's see... (thanks for conveniently numbering paragraphs!)

#1 is pure diplomatic pleasantries and can be ignored. #2 is pretty much the same. What we can deduce is that the Templars realize they overstepped their boundaries with their last heated message, and have backed off. This is good, because it was our goal with the last message. :)

#3 states that they are unhappy with our current move, but don't plan to challenge it militarily (good). Of course, there's always the possibility that they're lying. ;) While the Templars don't seem like the kind of team that would do that, let's not push it. Trust, but verify.

As I mentioned about a month ago, possession is 90% of the law. Whether they like it or not, the Templars are just going to have to deal with our presence in the south.

#4 says that they want some kind of agreement on dividing up the land. It also reveals that the Templars haven't done a particularly good job of scouting... which means that our push to the south was even MORE important, because that's where they were planning on settling first! Can you imagine how dire our situation would be if we were locked out of all that land, and they could later move to the east at their leisure? Good thing we pushed aggressively in their direction at the start, eh?

I don't think we should give them any information for free. Maybe give them some vague information about there being some excellent land to the east of Jerusalem (which is true), and suggesting that this would be a good area to settle. We could say that we will not contest their control of this region, which sounds good - and also happens to reflect the strategic reality that we can't possibly get over there anytime soon. We could potentially promise not to settle any more cities right on their doorstep, although I don't like locking ourselves into a committment like that. Better to be vague on the subject.

Another suggestion we might send them is that they should move towards Imperio quickly, because there are some important resources between their capitals. This is both true and would potentially foster ill-will between their civs. Remember, Templars still do not have Bronze Working and do not know where the copper resources are located...

#5 is pretty vague, but it sounds like they want a full defensive alliance with us. We probably DON'T want to make any kind of committment like that, but what we can do is string them along with some vague statements that sound supportive without actually agreeing to anything. Diplomats have been doing that for centuries, right?

Anyway, I think we played things well so far with this team. We bluffed in their direction and got them to stand down. Obviously, the Cloak and Dagger info helps a lot here. We need to determine our standing with Imperio before we can make any more substantial agreements with the Templars. If Imperio wants to commit to our side, I would also favor sticking with them over what seems to be an incompetent team.

[Zeviz]

I like Sulla's suggestion, as usual. We can say something like the following:
"We were surprised by your interest in the south-western part of the continent, considering that the area to the east of your capital contains just as much grassland, hills, and food, and almost no annoying jungle. And your strategic resources are located to the north-east of your capital. In fact, the only sources of Copper and Horses we've seen in the eastern half of the continent are located to your north-east. While Imperio might have one military resource in the area south of their capital we haven't seen yet, they have nothing to their west and immediate north, so they might be interested in the resources located closer to you."

How is that for trying to stir up trouble between Templars and Imperio? :)

[mostly-harmless]

Huh! Seems the settler stirred up quite some diplomacy action.
My opinion on the matter is, that I don't like handing out map info to them for free. It might be ok to do so with PAL, which is not a short term rival, but Templars should scout for themselves and get eaten by barbs! We got scouts from huts and they risked their necks out there revealing the map. Templars definitively popped an important tech from a hut and most likely some cash. I don't hear them offering that for free!
I think I was against revealing the location of horses to them. I would also have voted against the phrase in our reply stating Pink Dot will have no strategic resources in reach. Templars do not have BW, why give them hints on location or non-location of metal???
So needless to say I am against offering them map info so they can decide on a border pact. The facts are, that we will settle 8 tiles away from their capital. Both cities will have cultural production. So somewhere in between is where the border will go. What does it matter if we have lands of plenty in our backyard.
There is also no rush in signing any agreement yet. Our gamble will pay off in a couple of turns and then we will really negotiate from a position of strength.
If they want an agreement, the first thing I want to see is those Quechas moved out of an area defined by culture+1 as a sign of good will.

I have drawn up a first line in-game which could mark a potential agreed border.

Just read Zeviz reply and I am against revealing that much info.
We have not seen a single Quecha moving northwards and contact Imperio-Templars was initiated by the Imperio warrior moving southward.

To come back to my stance on the rush discussion. I am still against an all out rush but have no problem in dismembering the Templars early on and have them as a vassal throughout the game.

Any future reply to the Templars should remind them of us revealing horses to them and maybe say something along the line:
"From your isolationistic attitude towards yellow civ, and your focus on spiritual matters, we assumed a lack of interest in acquiring large lands."

EDIT: it just occurred to me that Templars are expecting us to settle on the bare grassland hill the settler is on now (turn41). In fact, we will settle even more aggressively. Should be fun! :)

mh

[Zeviz]

The reason I want to reveal this information to Templars is to push them towards conflict with Imperio. If the copper was in SW, I wouln't have mentioned it. In fact, if we do find copper near Imperio's lands later, I would suggest "forgetting" to update Templars on that info. :)

So in summary, I support revealing information only when it is to our advantage to do so. For example, a map trade with PAL will not give them any substantial advantage, but will look like a friendly gesture. In this case, map information should direct Templars towards conflict with our rivals.

[mostly-harmless]

Yes, I see the point. Nevertheless, it could lead to a situation, in which Templars grab horses and copper with their settler, before we have secured a source of iron.
mh

[sunrise089]

It's too bad relations with the Templars have declined so much, but I think it's really unavoidable considering the land. Their desire to share maps would only reveal that we'd have to be awarded too much land in their direction to end up on a level playing field, and their desire to form a permanent alliance with their neighbor just isn't realistic in a game where land ='s power.

Furthermore, what does forcing conflict between Templars and Imperio really accomplish? It simply makes one of them stronger and therefore harder to kill, and makes both of them prioritize military techs and builds.

I think it's obvious that our future lies with PAL in this game. If we knock out Imperio our land will be hard to defend and leave Templars with too little. If we knock out the Templars Imperio will likewise have to fight for more. If either Templars or Imperio knock out the other we will have to fight them to gain land.

I agree with Darrell that any non-dastardly diplomatic moves that can forestall their realization that conflict is eminent make sense, but that likewise a strong attack with classical era units is the best medium-term plan.

PS - A production-heavy cap seems to make the most sense for early aggression.

PPS - I love the Templars threat of an attack on a city defended by warriors with Quechuas. perhaps they need to check the Civilopedia more carefully.

[Zeviz]

Can we send something to Templars in the next couple of days?

When they see our pair of workers building a road, their most natural assumption will be that we settled on their Copper. (The reason it's important to tell them where their Copper really is before they see the workers is that it's a lot harder to change people's mind once they've decided on something than it is to direct them beforehand.)

[ruff_hi]

Draft reply.


Sir Aidun,

Thank you for your recent message. We note your comments about possibly overcoming future 'surprises' by early communication and whole heartily agree. We will strive to keep be as open and as above board with you as we can. Naturally, our sovereign concerns might over-ride this as you have acknowledged in your last message.

In that light, I would like to inform you that we are currently working to connect our capital to our first city and you may notice some worker action to that extent.

Now, regarding the meat of your communication ... you discussed our offer of a Non-Aggression Pact and suggested combining a border agreement with it. You mention 'evenly dividing the land'. You also mentioned your lack of land knowledge; two locations in particular: land West of us (we assume you meant our Capital) and land South-East of us.

Our comments:

Firstly: what do you mean by 'evenly'? Are you including the Impala in your equations or do you consider them a non-issue?

Secondly: Are you talking about a map trade or is a (general) description of the land sufficient.

Thirdly: Directly to our South-East is your capital. Surely you know the land surrounding your capital better than us?

We would consider filling in your lack of map knowledge - maybe you could share your map knowledge and then it would be clearer to us what you are missing.

Cheers ....

[Zeviz]

What happened to the idea of telling them that all of their strategic resources are located in Imperio's direction?

Look at it this way: They can see horses and will likely settle next to them anyway. Any city next to their horses will also get copper in its radius. So they'll settle next to Copper whether we tell them about it or not.

Benefits of telling them about location of resources:
- We look friendly.
- We look strong. (We aren't afraid of pointing out their resources to them.)
- We direct their attention away from us.

Disadvantages:
- They are even more likely to settle next to their copper, which they'd probably settle next to anyway.

So with that in mind, I would prefer to use the text I've included before, instead of the currently proposed non-committal version. Here is my suggestion again: "We were surprised by your interest in the south-western part of the continent, considering that the area to the east of your capital contains just as much grassland, hills, and food, and almost no annoying jungle. And your strategic resources are located to the north-east of your capital. In fact, the only sources of Copper and Horses we've seen in the eastern half of the continent are located to your north-east. While Imperio might have one military resource in the area south of their capital we haven't seen yet, they have nothing to their west and immediate north, so they might be interested in the resources located closer to you."

[mostly-harmless]

I am against mentioning the copper location.
Templars might not have prioritized Bronze Working, but the knowledge of a guaranteed copper source for their second city will have them research it straight away. We know they have a worker ready to connect it up. So we are most likely facing a scenario, in which Templars have access to copper and horses before we have knowledge of iron.
We just cannot neglect the construction of warriors & archers in our capital on the on side and give our closest neighbor (who also mentioned military action against us already) all the tools for superior units.

@ Ruff: The Spanish team is called Imperio not Impala. Lets have this right at least for the official communication. :)

mh

[Zeviz]

Can we get more votes on whether to tell them about Copper location?

And I wouldn't tell them about our worker actions either way, because that just gives them a better warning for ambushing our workers, without giving the same diplomatic benefits we'd get from revealing map information.

[darrelljs]

I would not disclose the location of Copper.

Darrell

[ruff_hi]

ok - I'm going to send the draft as is. No mention of copper or stuff like that. I want to keep the dialog moving. I'll edit the name of the other team. I thought calling them Impala was funny ... oh well.

[mostly-harmless]

Calling them Impala was .... well ... funny. ;)
But not for official communication.

mh

[Zeviz]

You can send it as is, since it looks like we don't want to mention copper. (And I still suggest removing mention of our worker actions.)

[sunrise089]

I also vote no copper mention.

I like the Impala thing too.

[ruff_hi]

email from Templar ...

Dear Ruff,

I'm happy to hear from you. A few things in RL kept me from getting back to you. I will try to write a complete reply to you tomorrow. I think a general description of the land will do, but I'll see if our turn player has a map for you. Thanks for the info.

Best,

Sir Aidun
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar

[ruff_hi]

I'm expecting an email from Templars shortly. I'll mention their units near our borders when I send my 'got your email - we are discussing' reply.

[Sullla]

OK, although I logged into the game again this morning, and they have started moving their quechuas into somewhat less threatening positions. Two of them are definitely still close though.

[Zeviz]

Note: We are the ones who offered the NAP, and Templars refused. (Or, rather, they said "let's discuss borders first.) So I'd be very careful making further demands from them. There is only so much bluffing we can do with a high soldier score, and it'll be over 30 turns until we are aware of location of a military resource..

[sooooo]

Originally posted by Zeviz
Note: We are the ones who offered the NAP, and Templars refused. (Or, rather, they said "let's discuss borders first.) So I'd be very careful making further demands from them. There is only so much bluffing we can do with a high soldier score, and it'll be over 30 turns until we are aware of location of a military resource..

Blimey, this is a rather Hawkish interpretation of their got-it email. They did not refuse. They said they would discuss it with their team. They did not say let's discuss borders first, that comment was an answer to ruff's question of description vs screenshot.

I think you guys are getting carried away / paranoid. Let's cool down and read what the templars are actually saying. I can see us two getting along just fine for a long while.

[ruff_hi]

Obviously, with regards to the Templars, we need to apply the 1% doctrine ... that is, if there is a 1% chance that they have weapons of mass destruction, we need to act as if it is a certainty that they have those weapons.

[/joke]

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by sooooo
I can see us two getting along just fine for a long while.

I can see us killing them in about 100 turns ;).

I kind of agree with Zeviz on this one, l'd rather bite the bullet and cover our Workers then send them an e-mail asking for troop withdrawl. Such a request could make them think we are preparing for war and don't want them poking around to see our troop build up. It could also make them think we are spread thin with such a far flung settlement. Either way it encourages a military focus on their part.

Darrell

[mostly-harmless]

I would also say we should be less paranoid.
The Quechas nearby had good reasons to assume and hold those positions. Both of them saw combat against animals and had to heal.
The NW Quecha is now up to full strength and continued to scout the land to our west. Remember that those guys probably have not found the west coast yet.
I am all in favour for escorting our workers.
I am against mentioning troop withdrawal in an eMail now unless it is part of a larger agreement. Once they park fully healed troops near our borders for a longer period we will have to act.
100turns is still a long long way in the future.
We should try our best to stay on friendly terms with them.
Don't we want their religions to spread into our cities asap?

mh

[sooooo]

I too don't think we should mention a troop withdrawal.

[Zeviz]

Originally posted by sooooo


Blimey, this is a rather Hawkish interpretation of their got-it email. They did not refuse. They said they would discuss it with their team. They did not say let's discuss borders first, that comment was an answer to ruff's question of description vs screenshot.

I think you guys are getting carried away / paranoid. Let's cool down and read what the templars are actually saying. I can see us two getting along just fine for a long while.
I didn't mean to sound hawkish. All I want to say is that we shouldn't press our bluff too hard. Agressive settlement is fine, but demanding removal of their units from our borders might easily lead to worsening of relations.

[sooooo]

If we do decide to go for blue dot, maybe we could earn some brownie points with the Templars by mentioning that we are settling away from their civ to respect their civilization and to repair relations between our teams.

[ruff_hi]

email from templars
Dear Ruff,

First of all I would like to apologise for the long time I took to reply. I am in the middle of moving and preparing a year of studies abroad (MA International relations and diplomacy in Antwerp, Belgium), and it's consuming a lot of my time, hence the delay. I hope it has not been too inconvenient.

Below are the answers to your questions.

1) By evenly I mean that both our teams get an equal share of the land on this island, as well as resources. The land of does of course vary greatly in quality. The aim is to let each team have the same quality of land as another, so that one does not have all the desert or tundra or jungle and another all the grassland, plains and hills. The same for resources (including strategic resources), we think these ought to be shared by the teams on an equal basis. These conditions we consider vital for continued cooperation and possible alliance of some sort. Would we agree to form a long-term alliance, as I have mentioned before, the issue of resources would be of lesser importance, as we presume that allies share these.

2 and 3) Like I wrote in my last short message, a general description is ok with us. Meanwhile our units will just continue to explore a bit. The tiles to your southeast (close to your border, west of the northernmost mountain to your southeast) are a black strip. Also we are unfamiliar with the northern tundra region. The lands to the west we are now exploring.

We can share maps in the near future.

The border agreement is right now a bilateral one. Since Imperio is not included in it, we consider the possibility that Imperio will claim lands for itself that one of us had wanted to settle, causing the balance to shift in the other team's advantage. If that is the case, we think renegotiation is appropriate. Our team has considered to make this agreement trilateral, but because we think an agreement has to be reached soon, it is better to first agree bilaterally and later expand the agreement with Imperio. It is explicitly our goal to expand this agreement with Imperio. We expect that if your team already has a border agreement with Imperio and this initiative would come on top of it, that you would inform us, so that the agreements do not conflict.

It struck us that in your reply to our proposals you haven't mentioned our suggestion for a long-term alliance. You might have forgotten about it or overlooked it, such often happens in internal team discussion, but we'd like to hear your opinion about it. We believe that cooperation on this island is the road to success and we regard your team as an ideal partner for a long term alliance, possibly with Imperio.


Best,

Sir Aidun,
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar

[ruff_hi]

My short response is that these guys are dreaming. They've been fiddling around with their capital and haven't got a settler out yet (PAL has 3 cities!) and want to claim an equal share of the land via agreement(!). The whole reason we selected 'cultural' was so that we would get an early start on the land grab.

The main issue is that we need to string them along until we are actually strong enough to defend what we have. The comment made by ??? re settle blue dot to release pressure on Templar is getting stronger.

[Sullla]

I agree, their team seems to be made up of lunatics. Do they honestly believe they can make no effort at expanding, and claim a third of the land on this continent?! This is like Italy showing up in North America in 1700, then saying to Britain, France, and Spain "hey guys, let's divide things up equally, OK?" :lol:

Let's see... how do we say "hell no!" in very polite terms without making it sound like that's our answer...

1) We are definitely NOT agreeing to an equal division of the land. The notion of "sharing" resources is so ridiculous, I can't even comprehend why they suggested it. Would any two teams actually do that?! It's crazy.

I would probably say that we appeciate the goodwill behind their suggestion, but don't feel comfortable about sharing resources as yet. (Damn Templars don't even know where copper *IS*, and they want us to share it with them! That's pretty arrogant.) Remind them again that we already disclosed the location of their strategic resource to them (horses), before they had the requisite technology as a gesture of our goodwill.

Do not let them know where copper is under any circumstances. That should be non-negotiable.

Play for more time as far as the "equal distribution of land" nonsense, using lots of vague sentiments. Use sooooo's suggestion above; since we are going to Blue anyway, promise that we will not send our next settler in their direction. Make some sort of vague comment that we have no plans to settle "beyond" Pink Dot, which is unclear enough that we can claim to have been misunderstood when we grab Red later on. ;) We can also tell them (later, in a future message) that Red was a response to Imperio movement, and not directed at then. They might even be stupid enough to believe that...

2/3) Are they really suggesting that we give them map info? We've got the whole continent mapped; *THEY* are the ones in the black. I would send back a message conveying polite affront at this initiative. "We can share maps in the near future." Bullcr@p! Give us something in return if you want that info. Go do your own scouting!

4) What in the world is wrong with these guys? Bilateral and trilateral border agreements?! :rolleyes: How about you get out there and actually claim some land, eh?

Again, the best response is to continue to stall and play for time. Ask Aidun for more details - what would constitute a fair border agreement? Where does he envision the lines being drawn? (This will give us a good indication of how delusional their team's thinking really is.) I think it's perfectly fair to state that we're unwilling to agree to anything until we have more detailed confirmation.

I also think we should wait 2 days to respond. After all, we're pretty much stalling for time until we can research Iron Working. ;)

5) Pretty much the same as above: "I'll have to talk it over with the team." "I'm not sure we can commit to a long-term alliance at such an early date." "We have every peaceful intention, but that's a lot to ask when the game hasn't even reached 2000BC yet." And so on.

Once again, is there anything we can do to start the wheels of diplomacy with Imperio? I can't help but feel that the Templars are completely crazy. I really do NOT want them as an ally we have to rely on. (It's clear that their gameplan involves trying to sit back and tech their way to a cultural/space win, while screaming and crying if anyone attacks them.)

[Zeviz]

You know a team has gone too far if even my reaction is "they must be crazy". :p

Our main goal at this point is to delay until we have Iron connected and a few units trained. So let's consider the strategy...

At the current rate, it will take us about 30 turns to research IW. (Assuming we don't tank our economy and don't detour to Sailing.) After that, a couple more turns to connect Iron, and some time to train units. This means that we have to stall for at least two months. This is quite doable:

1. In a couple days send them a brief "got it, discussing with team" message. This will make an impression of a semi-inactive diplomatic envoy.

2. Over a week later, send them a message apologizing for the delay, saying that our team runs things by consensus, which makes the diplomatic process take a little longer. (Being role-players, they should appreciate this excuse. :p )

3. In another week or so (or after settling city #3) send them a non-committal message, mentioning as Sooooo said that we have settled away from them until the borders are more clear.

A couple diplomacy cycles like the one above should get us close enough to IW. At that time, we can start assering our positions more forcefully, so that relations deteriorate just as our troops are coming out of barracks.

PS And yes, even I agree with rushing Templars now, because while I appreciate a team that puts role-playing above winning, expecting others to give you victory on a silver platter isn't roleplaying. It's just poor play.

[ruff_hi]

too late - already sent them a got it. But I agree with your intentions. We haven't said anything to them but we have communicated quite a lot. I think we should keep this up (stalling) but stall by talking a lot.

I'm travelling tomorrow - let me d/l this dialog and see if I can put together a suitable reply.

[mostly-harmless]

re 1.) Not only do I agree with all of you, that this is rather ridiculous, but it would also not work, as there are only two horses (located between Imperio & Templars) and, what, 1 copper? Not much to divide up evenly. Luxury resources are rather clustered, so how do they think we would go about it? Have a nice checkerboard pattern of Imperio, RB & Templars cities to evenly divide resources??? :rolleyes:
re 2&3.) As I said earlier, let their Quechas get eaten by wolfs and face the barbs. There is nothing to gain for us giving away map info to Templars. If they want to continue scouting around our cities, fine, the best fog busting we could ask for.

"We can share maps in the near future" There will be nothing Templars could give us we would not already know.

I would not even mention Blue Dot to them. We don't have a formal agreement and Blue Dot should be of no concern to them.
How we organize our backyard, should be entirely left to us.

mh

[ruff_hi]

Sir Aidun,

Don't worry about the delay - with the speed this game is going, we have all the time in the world. To that end, the RB team might take some time to internally discuss your latest communication.

I think that I can break our recent communication down into 3 components: map information, border agreement, long-term alliance.

Maps
To be honest, my request to share maps was a bit of a red herring - we have already mapped out this continent with the exception of a few foggy tiles here and there. Thus, I doubt that your map could improve our knowledge (excluding some tiles in your capital which you probably don't want to share anyway). You asked about a strip of land to our Capital's South-East. If I understand your directions, that land is mainly open plains with a strip of water that separates us from Imperio - there is no Northern land bridge between us and Imperio. You also asked about the land to our North - that is mainly ice and tundra with some health resources (hardly surprising information).

The land-bridge comment is included so that when we do settle Red Dot, we can say it is to lock Imperio out of the lands to our North.

Border Agreement
There has been and will continue to be quite a bit of debate in The RB Team about this. You firstly discuss a bi-lateral agreement, then introduce tri-lateral by including Imperio and mention the possible need of re-negotiation. Our general comment is that these sorts of bi-lateral agreements will be very hard to reach and almost impossible if we include the possibility of revisiting them due to third party actions.

That said, we applicate the goodwill that you are trying to exhibit towards us by discussing this topic. Hence, The RB Team does not want to close down the topic of a border agreement with your team. However, we would like to include Imperio in any discussion of land that might lie between the three teams. In light of this, I've been authorized to inform you that we will not be founding a city beyond 'Pink Dot' so that we can give the 'Border Agreement' a chance at success. We have modified our plans such that our next city will go West.

I wanted to give them the impression that we are willing to keep discussing, to make it harder since we will require Imperio to be included and to give them the feeling that their comments are having an impact on our play.

Long-term Alliance
You are right - I completely forgot to respond to this component of your earlier communications. Such an agreement would be the last step in a long series of intra-team relationship way points. From my perspective, this series would go something like this:

hello -> talking -> recognition of rights -> border agreement -> non aggression pact -> defensive pact -> alliance

As you can see, there a quite a few steps involved but mainly they involve the building of trust, understanding and respect. The RB Team is not adverse to continuing down this series of steps with the Templars.

Just trying not to say NO. Diplo speak at its best.

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team
The comments in blue are for background - not in the actual draft.

[Zeviz]

I like this text, but would prefer to wait at least a few days before sending it out. It's best to use a combination of strategies, so vague wordiness can be used together with slow communication cycle.

[Sullla]

Let me echo Zeviz's comments about delaying any reply, since we're stalling for time. Every other team seems to move at a glacial pace as far as diplomacy is concerned, so we'll hardly seem out of place. I'd wait about a week before sending an answer, personally.

My only change would come in the first section on map exchanges. Rather than admit to a "red herring", simply plead confusion on the matter. We thought that they meant something else, yadda yadda. Politely thank them for their offer to exchange map info and decline the offer, while wishing them well on their own scouting efforts. I do think it's a good idea to mention no northern land-bridge between us and Imperio; they will quickly discover that anyway, and it does give us a later pretext to move east with later settlers.

[Sullla]

It's been five days. Ordinarily I would say to wait longer before replying, but the Templars have four different quechuas moving around our borders, and we need to ask them to explain their actions. Ruff, can we add in a paragraph to that effect? ("It's difficult to trust when your civ seems intent on moving quechuas along our borders.") I would also suggest we mention that we are more than capable of defending ourselves, and are asking for an explanation because we would like to preserve friendly relations.

Templars just built a fifth quechua last turn. I cannot imagine that they would be insane enough to think that a rush with warriors would work against a human player, but this *IS* the Templars we're talking about... :rolleyes:

[ruff_hi]

I'll draft a query email to them about their unit movements. How do we know they built a 5th quechua? Clock and Dagger?

Do we have information on how and where they have been moving? Do they look like they are scouting or staging for an attack?

[ruff_hi]

Sir Aidun,

Our turn player noted that you have 4 quechua near our borders and asked me to contact you about this. Subsequent to that, at least 3 other team members have raised concerns about these units. From our prior correspondence, my understanding is that you are using these units to scout (another team member asked why you are building quechua instead of scouts) in an effort to catch up on the map information that you are missing. I've tried to allay Team RBs concerns about this but it would obviously be better to hear this information 'from the horses mouth' (so to speak).

No doubt you have a bunch of units to move (including your units over near Imperio) and didn't think about the implications of these movements.

Please help me reduce these concerns.

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[mostly-harmless]

Can we include something along the lines of:
- being concerned of their military buildup (as a slight hint about their latest Quecha).
- puzzled why we don't see any scouts (more suited for recon) but Quechas only
- puzzled that all activities are directed towards us and none whatsoever towards north/Imperio

mh

[Sullla]

Ruff, we know that Templars trained a fifth quechua because their Soldier score went up by 2k (14k to 16k) without any increase in overall score. The only possible way that could happen is from building another quechua.

I would go ahead and send the above message right away, adding in mh's question about why all their units seem to be over by us and not Imperio. Probably also mention that we are considering their previous treaty email.

[Zeviz]

Yes, send the above, including a question why they "aren't interested in Imperio, who just settled their second city towards Templar capital as well". (Always good to direct their attention towards Imperio.)

[ruff_hi]

I just sent this to The Templars ...

Sir Aidun,

Our turn player noted that you have 4 quechua near our borders and asked me to contact you about this. Subsequent to that, at least 3 other team members have raised concerns about these units. From our prior correspondence, my understanding is that you are using these units to scout (another team member asked why you are building quechua instead of scouts) in an effort to catch up on the map information that you are missing. I've tried to allay Team RBs concerns about this but it would obviously be better to hear this information 'from the horses mouth' (so to speak).

No doubt you have a bunch of units to move (including your units over near Imperio scouting their second city) and didn't think about the implications of these movements.

Please help me reduce these concerns.

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[ruff_hi]

email from Templars in response to our 'units' email ...


Dear Ruff,

In cases like this it seems best to me to be straightforward.

The reason why we have units near your borders is for scouting reasons to reveal the remaining fog patches and for verification.

Our foreign policy is aimed at establishing secure relations with your team which guarantee peace between our teams for a long period and reducing the threat your current strategy poses to us. To that end we have approached you with suggestions for an alliance that would make a NAP unnecessary. As long as negotiations for either an alliance or NAP and additionally a border agreement have not even started, we have been taking precautionary measures which include the peaceful deployment of military units such as military sentinels.

Your team might not perceive that its strategy is threatening to a neighboring team like ours, but to us it is. As long as your strategy is perceived, by some of our team, as threatening to us, we will, in the absence of a formal alliance, take whatever measures we deem necessary. Likewise we understand how our actions could be perceived by you. We wish to stress, however, that our measures should be understood as a response to your team's strategy.

We are and have always been open to ideas at establishing frameworks for maintaining peace on this island and we will continue to be in the future. As we work out such ideas and both our teams take part in them, this we believe, will help you reduce your teams concerns.

Best,

Sir Aidun
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar

I think we should send them our other draft (see above) that talks about future relationships.

[Sullla]

I concur.

I also think this team is completely schizo, moving units around our cities while simultaneously asking for border agreements and alliances. Whatever. :rolleyes:

[sooooo]

Yes let's send them something like the draft above. Maybe we should reply to this paragraph:

Your team might not perceive that its strategy is threatening to a neighboring team like ours, but to us it is. As long as your strategy is perceived, by some of our team, as threatening to us, we will, in the absence of a formal alliance, take whatever measures we deem necessary. Likewise we understand how our actions could be perceived by you. We wish to stress, however, that our measures should be understood as a response to your team's strategy.

With something like:

We understand your concerns but we wish to reiterate that our expansion is peaceful. Your civ has concentrated on early relgions; we admire this and hope it will benefit both of our civilisations down the line. Our civ, not starting with mysticism, stone, marble or the industrial trait, have not pursued relgion or wonders. Thus we have strove for workers, settlers, and generally tried to boost our economy quickly. We hope that early technological advancement of our own civ will help all the civs on our continent by mutually beneficial technology trading.

Our first city, on reflection, was maybe too close to your civ. However, it is a good economic site which is what we are aiming for in our early cities; there are not many of them close to our capital. It does not gain military resources which we would think would have been more threatening. However, we do not wish that this decision of first city placement will sour relations between our teams for centuries. To this end, we will not expand past Pink Dot, and our next city will go west, away from your civ. We have scouted near your capital and have seen a lot of fertile land, so despite taking one of the fertile spots in the south there is still a lot of good land for you.

[mostly-harmless]

I would not mention where we are going to settle our next city.
Templars are way behind when it comes to expansion. Assuming they have not such a good knowledge of the other civs expansion rate, I would count on them misjudging our expansion rate. They have just scouted the Blue Dot area, so we won't see another Templars unit there any time soon.
If we can keep up the picture of being a 2 city civ for as long as possible, while settling Blue Dot, I would prefer that.

mh

[ruff_hi]

hmm - I sent the long draft this morning. @ MH - that doesn't work - they just have to bring up the diplo screen to see how many cities we have.

[mostly-harmless]

Hmmmm.
Will they do that regularly?
Even so, we don't have a settler ready yet for Blue Dot. No point in revealing our mid term plans to them.

mh

[Zeviz]

I thought it's impossible to bring up trade screen until writing. (You can open diplo screen, but trade screen isn't there.) Or is that just in SP games?

As for Templar posting scouts on our border, that makes perfect sence to me. Don't forget that we have by far the highest soldier score, and they have no way of knowing whether that score comes from techs or Axes.

PS It's best not to make specific promises like "no expansion past Pink Dot", because that can be interpreted as "we will never expand past Pink Dot".

PPS We might want to keep relations with Templars somewhat tense, so that when the war eventually does come, we have at least some pretext for it, aside from "we have swords and they don't". :)

[mostly-harmless]

I just tried and could open diplo/trade screen to all civs we have contact to and find out for example that PAL 2nd and 3rd cities are named Thebes & Memphis.

mh

[ruff_hi]

short reply from Templars ...


Dear Ruff,

A short and quick reply to smoothen the communication and prevent us from talking past each other due to the time between our letters. We appreciate your plan to refrain from expanding further south and to expand west instead. We will, however, maintain some military sentinels in place until permanent frameworks for long term peace and cooperation have been formalized. Still, we like the cooperative athmosphere that breathes from your letter.

A more extensive reply will follow.


Best,

Sir Aidun
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar

I think that we need to keep up the communication - this is an example that oil can smooth stormy waters. We just have to try hard not to agree to anything and to not tell them that 'we are thinkin o' killen you'.

[sooooo]

And the more extensive reply:

Hi Ruff,

Aidun is currently unavailable due to illness so I'm currently overseeing his duties as our diplomatic liaison. There are a few points that need to be addressed:

First off, you've no doubt noticed one of our Quechuas (Squire Herc) is moving very close to your borders. We're doing this because we need to cross to the opposite side of your road but want to avoid moving him directly next to your Worker further south -- we imagine you might perceive that to be a hostile move (certainly more so than moving closer to your border) and want to stress that our intentions are peaceful. The unit in question will move on to a less threatening position to the east as quickly as possible.

As Aidun noted before, our military units are there for sentinel duties in defensive positions, which we deem necessary in the absence of any formal treaties between our teams and with your team having established your outpost so close to our capital. You asked why Quechuas rather than Scouts: on a continent this small and for a civ that doesn't start with Hunting, Scouts are of very limited value; for the Inca specifically Quechuas make for very good scouting units as well, so we haven't bothered building any Scouts. We hope to be able to withdraw these units in due time, but as you said yourself, more trust and understanding needs to be built between our teams first.

Secondly, we noticed your Scout Tracy was attacked and has suffered damage. If there is a way we can provide cover again for that unit, we'd be happy to do so. Let us know if you need assistance there.

Thirdly, since you pledged not to expand further in the contested region between our borders, we pledge to do the same for now. As you already surmised in an earlier message, we shall found our next city to our NE -- a Settler is currently en-route there -- and future expansions shall for the time being be further east to, as you say, give the border agreement a chance of success. But I think we can all agree that we need to work out a more permanent arrangement before it stifles either of our growth.

We've seen your repeated posts in the public forum to try and get in touch with Imperio. Have you had any luck in this regard? We've heard very little from them as well, but we agree with you that working together with Imperio to establish a tri-lateral border treaty is important. In fact, we feel that it's in the interest of all three of us to work together as much as possible.

Democracy Games are rarely won by a team acting on its own, it's usually an alliance that ends up deciding the outcome of the game. A lasting alliance between the three teams on our island with all of us working together on research would give us a very good chance of getting to the New World before the teams on the other island, which would of course give us a significant leg-up on them and increase the chances of all three of us to win the game. Our cooperation could extend to the New World itself as well and make sure we all get a fair share of it -- the longer we work together, the better we believe it will be for all three of us.

That's long-term thinking though, the first hurdle to cross to get there will be to get in touch with Imperio and figure out a fair division of our lands between the three of us. We will be making a renewed effort to contact them very shortly (also depending on Aidun's availability) and keep you apprised of our progress.

Wouter
Interim Diplomatic Liaison of the Knights Templar

[Sullla]

I agree that working together with other teams is the key to success in a Demogame. What the Templars don't need to know is that our plan is to work with PAL and not them. ;) Their belief that all three civs on our island can work together in peaceful harmony seems to fall somewhere between "idealistic" and "crack-smokin' nonsense" to me.

I'll think about this and give a more detailed response a little later with some thoughts. For now, I think we should confirm receipt and tell them that we're going to have to discuss these issues as a team.

I did enjoy watching them bend over backwards to avoid giving offense. :lol:

[ruff_hi]

Hi Wouter,

Just a short reply to confirm that we got it. I'll pass it onto the team and seek some input.

Ruff

[mostly-harmless]

Templars just settled their 2nd city Constantinople 1N of the Horses grabbing Rice, 1 oasis, the Horses and (once revealed to them) the copper.

As a side effect Tracey is now cut off from our lands.

mh

[Zeviz]

Judging by the tone of their message, they are very scared of our power and production graphs.

So their "military biuldup" sounds like a response to what they persive as our military buildup.

[regoarrarr]

What this whole situation reminds me of is (to once again steal Sullla's parallel) Diplomacy.

More specifically the ol' Western Triple (an alliance with England, France and Germany against the rest of Europe).

This is usually a great deal....for England!

And we are kind of in the England position in this game (in the corner away from the other continent).

We'll have to monitor the diplomacy between us and our 2 continent-mates, but if we can play it right where we continue to talk about sticking together as a continent, to the point where we can get them to be the front lines in a war against the other continent, then we wait for just the right time to stab them in the back :evilgrin:

The other thing to keep in mind is that he who talks the most has a decided edge in diplomacy (both in big-D Diplomacy and in this game). By just keeping a friendly chatter going, we not only tend to be the power to be allied with, but we can plant our seeds (gently) of the direction we want each of the other countries to go.

Just some thoughts...

[ruff_hi]

draft email - edited to include some response to their original email above (and thus now differs from the version in the Barb City thread)

Greetings Templars:

I'm sorry to hear about Aidun. Please pass on my concerns and wish him a speedy recovery.

RB have been watching your units and accept that they are currently watching the RB movements. At the moment, it seems that this dual observation will continue. The RB team appreciate your pledge regarding not expanding in the contested region. I expect that you will have noticed the new Barbarian City that popped in the 'buffer' zone between RealmsBeyond and yourself. I've been asked to contact you regarding your intentions vis-à-vis said city. RealmsBeyond currently has no plans regarding this city - however, RB may send 1 or 2 archers down to the region to invite a suitable Barbarian target (as opposed to those units pillaging their way through our city squares).

If RB was to put forth an eradication party, the city would be razed to avoid Templar - RB stress.

What are the Templar's thoughts regarding this city?

Regarding your comments about other games of this type - the RB team have some experience in this area and agree (in general) with your comments and find that communication seems to be the key. Thus our continued diplomatic efforts.

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team


I've deliberately forgotten that they asked about Imperio

[mostly-harmless]

They have noticed and dispatched the southernmost Quecha to investigate already.
I don't quite under stand the part of the draft which says "invite Barb targets ... units walking through our city)
In general I would not be so talkative regarding that barb city. We have more or less agreed that we will leave it to them to deal with, but saying so might come over as arrogant as the city is clearly in what they deem their area of influence. Also "threating" to raze the city might just spur them on to take it for themselves sooner.

As for the reply to their last eMail:
I think there is little to say from our side.
Congratulate them for settling Constantinople
We can mention that we are still in the early get to know pahse with Imperio.
And we can suggest that Templars starts to draw up a draft "Border Agreement" for negotiations, simply for them having to do something.
And of course the usual filler saying yadda, yadda, cooperation, great, yadda, yadda.
Templars made a big mistake for not having contacted PAL yet. They have no clue whatsoever what giant PAL will become in 10-20 turns when they have completed their land grab phase.

And btw. from the Cloak&Dagger dept: Templars have just researched Bronze Working.

mh

[ruff_hi]

re 'invite barb targets' ... I was trying to give our units a reason for being there and not trying to take the city. I was thinking that one of our units would be there to act as a barb magnet - guess I should say that.

And this is a problem with the written word - I mentioned 'raze', not as a threat but to raise the issue that this action (they raze the city) is what we would expect them to do given that they aren't settling in this direction.

Good point regarding yadda yadda yadda - need more of that.

[sunrise089]

I certainly like the "invite barb attacks" line if it's made clear that keeps barbs from walking into our civ. It explains our observation party nicely, gives us a source of XP, and probably will reduce barb incursions.

[Zeviz]

I would prefer a shorter and more clear statement on the Barb city:

The RB team appreciate your pledge regarding not expanding in the contested region. I expect that you will have noticed the new Barbarian City that popped in the 'buffer' zone between RealmsBeyond and yourself. I've been asked to contact you regarding your intentions vis-à-vis said city. Since the city is located in the "buffer zone", we are not planning to capture it in the foreseeable future, but we might send a couple units to absorb barbarian attacks likely to come from it.

EDIT: By "foreseeable future" I mean "then next 40 turns". :p

[mostly-harmless]

I think naming that region down there a buffer zone is stretching things a bit, no?

mh

[Zeviz]

Originally posted by mostly-harmless
I think naming that region down there a buffer zone is stretching things a bit, no?

mh
I agree, but my assumption is that we want to attack them in about 50 turns, which means that we want to keep relations somewhat tense. (I would not backstub an ally, but if we let diplomatic situation deteriorate, war wouldn't be as unexpected.)

[ruff_hi]

they called it 'contested region between our borders' so a little stretch to 'buffer zone' is perfectly alright. Also, it helps to imply a no-mans land ... or a DMZ. Which is just what we want isn't it?

[sunrise089]

Originally posted by Zeviz

I agree, but my assumption is that we want to attack them in about 50 turns, which means that we want to keep relations somewhat tense. (I would not backstub an ally, but if we let diplomatic situation deteriorate, war wouldn't be as unexpected.)

I get the feeling the team is starting to diverge on this point. I see some posts referring to a deliberate effort to keep things tense, or at least encouraging us to take a firm hand. Other posts suggest relations are calming and the likelihood of military confrontation is going down. Do we want to generate some consensus on how friends we want relations to be?

[mostly-harmless]

I am also a bit stunned by the plan to attack Templars in around 50 turns. Should not war be the last resort if certain matters can't be resolved by other means?

We don't have to be best buddies with them, but between that and pre-planned early war is quite a wide spectrum. Relations should be re-assessed constantly (location of iron, Templars response to Red Dot, Barb City situation, possible 3rd Templar city) If any of these issues asks for military action to keep us on a way forward in that game, I am among the first line :)
Until then, there is plenty of opportunity to keep on peacefully.

Of course I personally do not like that forward sentry next to our road at all. No, no. That guy has to go away fast if relations are to be improved.

mh

[sooooo]

I like Ruff's original message but with the "If RB was to put forth an eradication party, the city would be razed to avoid Templar - RB stress." line taken out and some of m-h's diplo-speak like congratulations on settling constantinople etc.

[sunrise089]

@M-H - I'm actually in the pro-attack crowd, since I don't see us winning with only our land.

That said, I don't think we have to decide to attack or not quite yet. We do however need to decide our diplo posture - intentional antagonism for a more justifiable attack later or lulling diplomacy segueing into full-on backstabbing.

[Zeviz]

The reason I am suggesting a more confrontational approach is that I am 100% against backstubbing. However, I agree that we need more land than Templars are willing to give us peacefully, so letting diplomacy deteriorate sounds like the best compromise.

However, I have no specific desire for war, so if we can push Templars into letting us have half a continent and a religion, we can peacefully coexist while they plod along RPing in their 3 CC empire.

[sooooo]

I don't really think we have much bargaining power until we find some metal so would prefer to keep relations cordial. Longer term I think we should adopt a wait-and-see policy regarding the templars. I don't think that being nice to them now morally commits us to being nice to them the whole game.

[ruff_hi]

latest draft. We really need to send this along as the Barb City issue is something that they could decide soon.


Greetings Templars:

I'm sorry to hear about Aidun. Please pass on my concerns and wish him a speedy recovery. Also, RB would like to congratulate Templars on founding Constantinople.

The RB have been watching your units and accept that they are currently watching the RB movements. At the moment, it seems that this dual observation will continue. Naturally, the RB team would prefer non-military observers (scouts) instead of the archer killers currently utilized.

The RB team appreciate your pledge regarding not expanding in the contested region. I expect that you will have noticed the new Barbarian City that popped in the 'buffer zone' between RB and yourself. I've been asked to contact you regarding your intentions vis-à-vis said city. Since the city is located in this zone, we are not planning to capture it in the foreseeable future, but we might send a unit (maybe 2) to absorb barbarian incursions likely to originate from it.

What are the Templar's thoughts regarding this city?

With regards to the Border Agreement - what sort of agreement did you have in mind? We would like to start the process of discussing such an agreement but the RB Team feels that Impario should be included. We have had very limited success in contacting them - have you had any?

Personally, given the difficulty we are having communicating with Impario, maybe an agreement to split the continent between the two of us is more to your liking?

Wouter - I value your comments about other games of this type - the RB team have some experience in this area and agree (in general) with your comments and find that communication seems to be the key. Thus our continued diplomatic efforts.

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[mostly-harmless]

Team is called Imperio.
And I would get rid of the suggestion to split between just the two of us.

mh

[Sullla]

I wouldn't, actually. I'm curious to see what the Templars would say in response to that kind of proposal. If they would be interested, it could even be worth thinking about (especially since we think Imperio has it together, while the Templar... don't.)

Agree though that we need to send this message pretty soon.

[ruff_hi]

thx for the name correction. I didn't say a split between us was to our liking - am I being too clever here?

[mostly-harmless]

This is assuming Templars and Imperio do not speak to each other yet.

mh

[Zeviz]

I like this version.

And you do make your suggestion vaguely enough to protest our innocense if the email gets forwarded to Imperio.

[ruff_hi]

email as above sent.

[sooooo]

I like this draft, you're doing a good job Ruff.

[ruff_hi]

GPS reply ...

Hi Ruff,

Just letting you know we received your message and will be discussing it internally. One of us (in Aidun's absence we don't have a designated Foreign Affairs Minister) will get back to you with our response shortly.

Wouter

Thx sooooo.

[sooooo]

Okey Dokey, here's the reply:

Hi Ruff,

Thank you for your best wishes for Aidun, they have been passed on. We too feel that communication between our teams is key to maintaining a good relationship. On that note, there are once again a number of issues to address.


Observers and scouts
Regarding your concerns about our military observers, we feel that because a combination of factors we can now alleviate those by moving them further from your borders. These factors are:

(1) Our mutual agreement to not expand in the contested border region;
(2) The added security that immediate access to Constantinople's strategic resources now provides us;
(3) The fact that Jerusalem's borders will expand in two turns which will give us comparable line of sight to what the southern Quechua sentinels provided without the military threat that comes with them.

We may still maintain a military presence in the extreme south (around the site of the Barbarian city) and north (in the area between Constantinople and your capital's south-eastern border), but should remain well clear of your current borders and road.

We would also like to continue to explore those parts of our landmass that we haven't fully mapped yet (i.e. north of your capital) so there may be continued contact between some of our Quechua scouts and your units and borders (mostly in the narrow passage between your capital's eastern border and the water that separates your land from Imperio's, but possibly also near your third city depending on exactly where and when you found(ed) it). This will only concern one or at most two of our units though and will be temporary, so we hope your team won't regard it as much of a threat.


Barbarian city
Yes, we did notice the Barbarian city and have already dispatched a Quechua to it to investigate, we found the city of Harappan there sitting on top of the Stone resource, currently size 1 and guarded by 2 Warriors.

Our feelings are that that city being in our buffer zone is a potential threat to our relationship and it's therefore best to destroy it. Its location right on top of the stone isn't optimal anyway, even if it wasn't in disputed territory we wouldn't want to capture and keep it, so razing it is the only option in our view. There might be some benefit in keeping it around for a while to milk it for experience points, but as noted the threat that one of us might take it without consulting the other could form a continuous dark cloud over our relationship, which in our opinion isn't worth it for a few XP points.

In the spirit of building trust between our teams, we would like to propose a joint military operation to attack and destroy that city: with 1 or 2 of your units and 1 or 2 of ours taking the city would be a piece of cake. The spoils of war resulting from the capture could be shared equally between our teams, with the provision that if one of us loses more units than the other that should be compensated for in the distribution (perhaps a 33-67 split would be the simplest way to settle that? A small, undeveloped city like that isn't likely to either yield much gold or require much sacrifice to eliminate anyway).


Imperio, Border Agreement and beyond
It seems we're in agreement that at least a three-way border agreement and hopefully also other three-way treaties, especially a joint research plan, is the ideal situation for us all. As stated before, we feel it is critical, and in all three teams' best interests, that we work together to reach the New World as soon as possible. To that end we would like to share with you the correspondence we recently sent to Imperio (via PM on Apolyton to X_MiTH_X), which I added to the bottom of this message. They responded to this very promptly that they were discussing it -- a marked improvement over previous attempts to communicate. We will inform you of their full response when we get it.

As noted, we very strongly prefer to work out a three-way alliance between our teams, but should that not work out for whatever reason (whether due to poor communications or unwillingness on Imperio's part), we would be more than happy to work out an agreement without them. If it comes down to a two-way alliance we would certainly prefer establishing one with your team rather than with Imperio.

Wouter
Interim Diplomatic Liaison of the Knights Templar

And the message they sent to Imperio:

Private message to X_MiTH_X, sent yesterday afternoon (EST):

X_MiTH_X of Imperio

Greetings from the Templars. It has been a long time since we have
contacted you.

As both our nations, along with Realms Beyond, continue to grow, the opportunities for misunderstanding and conflict grow as well. To this end, we feel it is in our mutual interests to maintain a more regular dialogue regarding border arrangements, and possible tech and resource trading opportunities.

We have presented to Realms Beyond the concept of a 3-way co-operative agreement to govern ourselves. As this is a New World map. and given that there is another continent of civilizations that we are basically competing with to reach and colonize the new world, we think it best if we co-operate fully to ensure that we are the civilizations that get there first.

If we spend time and energy not co-operating, let alone fighting over territory on this continent, we will essentially be left behind by the other civs. To that end, we are proposing a joint tech research plan that gets us - us being Imperio, RB, and the Templars - to the New World as soon as possible.

I trust you can see the benefit in such an arrangement, and look forward to discussing it further with you or representatives from your team.

Regards, Beta of the Templars

[ruff_hi]

the take-aways for me from the top note are:

- 'we have copper - we are happy'
- 'raze barb city'

I'd just let them take the military action.

[Sullla]

They really think that this is a game about settling the New World continent? Craziness. Every Terra game I've ever played has been determined by events on the starting continent. By the time the other continent gets fully colonized, the game is 90% over. Their thought process is entirely backwards, IMO.

It's good that they're backing off and feel more confident with regards to us. Even better that the Templars are likely to raze the barb city. They probably think they're sitting pretty since they have copper and horses and we don't. (Which is partially true, but only for so long.) One thing we could do when we get iron is conceal that fact from Templars for as long as possible, letting them think they have an unbeatable military advantage. Even if we don't act on it, that would be to our benefit.

Also note that they have no idea if we've settled our third city as yet. No Cloak and Dagger department from them! On the other hand, we know what they're up to better than they do themselves. ;)

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Originally posted by Sullla
They really think that this is a game about settling the New World continent? Craziness. Every Terra game I've ever played has been determined by events on the starting continent. By the time the other continent gets fully colonized, the game is 90% over.
I agree. And that was the reason why I was against using the Terra map script for this game - the New World won't matter. But now that we see there are teams that think it does, and actually seem to revolve their game plan around getting to the New World, I find this very funny. :rolleyes:

Regarding the question of whether to attack them in around 50 turns, and how we should act diplomatically until then, I'd like to quote Sirian: "What can wait, should wait". Let's expand more and see what happens in the meantime before deciding about war, and until then, act as we're interested in friendly relations. Once we see the need or opportunity to attack, there will be enough time to let relations deteriorate deliberately, if needed. ;)

-Kylearan

[ruff_hi]

new email from Templars ...
Dear Ruff,

I have returned as Foreign Affairs Minister. Things are a bit more quiet now and I am well. I have settled in Antwerp. Thank you for your wishes when I was ill.

It has been 12 days since Wouter sent you our last message and 8 since you sent us a brief message to confirm that you received his letter. Since then, there has been no communication between us.

Perhaps you could get back to us soon about the proposed joint military operation in the south to remove the barbarian city. We cannot wait too long with that.

Communications with Imperio remain very difficult even though our diplomat Beta is doing his very best.

I also wish to inform you that we have established contact with PAL. We are discussing our foreign policy towards PAL. It seems to us that as neighboring teams, we would be stronger towards teams of the other island if we would coordinate our approaches a bit. That way we cannot be played out against one another. Also one of our teams might engage in a diplomatic transaction, such as an exchange of maps, that the other team considers wholly against their interests. That could in turn lead to misunderstanding. A bit of coordination with the aim of trying to reach a united approach where possible, but still respecting team sovereignty could help us avoid such difficulties. This could also be worth considering for our contacts to Imperio and other teams once we meet them. We would like to hear your ideas about this.

Please get back to us soon so that we might coordinate our joint military operation against the barbarian city.

Perhaps you are aware of it already, but we want to inform you of a barbarian to the north of your capitol. It is situated on a hill two tiles east of a hill with sheep and three tiles north of a little lake just within your borders, northeast side of your capital. We hope this info will be of use.

Best regards,

Sir Aidun
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar

[sooooo]

It's a good point - we did forget about their proposal to raze the barb city.

We should send an email with the normal diplo mumbo jumbo: hi, thanks for the barb info, word to your mother etc.

And possibly this paragraph:

Regarding the barbarian city on your border: We do not have the troops at this present moment, but appreciate the proposal. If you want to raze it immediately then feel free to and keep the money for yourselves. Alternatively you can wait a bit until we train some troops for the job. We don't mind either way.

I think we should keep our deals with PAL secret. Possibly even lie (!) and deny having any.

[Sullla]

Yes, I agree that we should send some sort of reply. Especially thank them about revealing the barb city north of our capital. (Too bad we'll have to raze it, as it's one off the coast! First sword or axe out of Airstrip One can go take care of it.)

- Regarding the barb city, I would tell them that we are in the middle of other projects at the moment, but that we plan to attack it in the near future. (As soon as we connect copper or iron, but they don't have to know that...) Make some sort of nice-sounding pronouncement that we will both agree to alert the other if a barb spawns and leaves the city.

We should also reiterate that whoever captures the city first should raze it. I still think they'll get to it before we do, that's why. :cute:

- Imperio: we should state that we are having difficulty communicating with them as well. Should we mention that we are trying to negotiate a Non-Agression Pact with Imperio? I would lean towards keeping that hidden for now, but what does everyone else think?

- Definitely keep agreements with PAL secret. Just say that we are in contact with PAL and have found them to be friendly neighbors thus far. I don't think we have any desire of turning our deal with PAL into a three-way relationship.

- Should we tell them that we think Imperio might be going for an Oracle slingshot? It's the kind of thing that probably doesn't hurt us, and possibly makes us look generous. After all, they have the techs to go after the Oracle, and might even be thinking about it.

That's my inital reading, anyway. I hope we can get some different impressions from everyone before we make a reply. :)

[ruff_hi]

going to shot this reply off tonight and something fuller tomorrow or Wed.


Sir Aidun,

Totally forgot to reply. That is what happens when you go on vacation for your birthday. I've got a draft around here somewhere - will need to get RB Team sign off and then I will flick it your way. Part of that reply was about the Barb city in the South - feel free to engage your troops without waiting for us ... we'll have some units there shortly but don't wait for us. And as you are taking the risk, keep the gold from razing it.

I'll have a fully reply for you shortly.

Ruff

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by Sullla
Especially thank them about revealing the barb city north of our capital. (Too bad we'll have to raze it, as it's one off the coast! First sword or axe out of Airstrip One can go take care of it.)

Templar Email
Perhaps you are aware of it already, but we want to inform you of a barbarian to the north of your capitol. It is situated on a hill two tiles east of a hill with sheep and three tiles north of a little lake just within your borders, northeast side of your capital. We hope this info will be of use.

I don't read their comment as a Barb city in the North, just a unit.

[mostly-harmless]

A few comment:
- I also read their barb warning to be about an unit. This is backed by the fact that we would see the barb cultural borders on the edge of our visible territory, and we don't. I would reply along the lines of "many thanks, strengthen mutual trust, will dispatch a unit shortly to tackle incursion"
- I am fine with leaving Barb city to them. I wouldn't even mind if they do not raze the city. It will be a heavy liability for them with all the jungle around and no iron working in yet. However we should not mention that "we cannot spare any troops for now". Rather say "we have no plans to attack the city in the next turns". Templars might wet themselves out of joy if we engage in a mutual military campaign. Before you know it, they want to come by for sleepover parties. :)
- Regarding policy towards Imperio & PAL: Well, we won't be lying in saying we have still difficulties establishing regular diplomatic contact with Imperio. No mention of the NAP. It is after all not signed anyway. I agree with keeping any agreements with PAL a secret. Mention that we are in contact with PAL and found them friendly, as Sullla mentioned. Ask Templars to be more specific regarding their joint diplomatic policies. I find it a bit ridiculous to ask for permission before trading maps.
- Mentioning the possible Oracle slingshot let us appear in a positive light, but we might be asked to back up that claim, revealing our C&D intel.

mh

[Sullla]

Originally posted by mostly-harmless - Mentioning the possible Oracle slingshot let us appear in a positive light, but we might be asked to back up that claim, revealing our C&D intel.

That can be explained pretty easily, I think:

- Imperio has marble
- Their GNP is really high, so they're probably researching towards something big
- They've already built Stonehenge

We don't have to reveal that we know they possess Priesthood, or anything like that. :)

[sunrise089]

I vote:

-Tell them about difficulty in contacting Imperio, tell them about Oracle slingshot risk.

-Do not even mention PAL - why reveal they were friendly to us in case they have not been so to Templars?

-Stall for time on the barb city (doesn't reveal lack of units but also doesn't turn down cooperation) by asking how many turns they would need to prepare units to attack.

-Of course thank them for spotting the barb unit for us.

[ruff_hi]

draft of longer email - I sent the quick one this morning.

Sir Aidun,

Good to have you back on deck. Not that talking to Wouter was a problem … errr … anyway …

Observers / Scouts
It would appear that your decision not to use scouts has paid off for you, given our recent scout losses. We noted the withdrawal of your units and the points that Wouter mentioned. Also, having some scouting units out seems like a good idea given the fog busting they are doing - thank you for the report of a barbarian unit to our North. Feel free to kill it (or not), one unit either way isn't going to worry us.

Barbarian City
As I noted in my short reply, we'll have some units heading that way shortly, but don't wait for us if you want to kill that city. Also, as you are taking the unit risk - feel free to keep the proceeds.

Border Agreement
Things here are not moving very fast at all, are they? However, given the speed of this game, we still have lots of time to discuss such an agreement. Team RB still feels that a tri-agreement would be the preferred Border Agreement as any bi-lateral agreement could be rendered void by third party actions.

The Other Continent
How is your contact with PAL going? Is it better or worse than your contact with Imperio? We have had very limited contact with PAL.

Oracle
One thing that I wanted to share with you - it is RB's feeling that Imperio are attempting some form of Oracle slingshot. They have marble, the required tech (we think), a propensity to built wonders and their current tech rate is very high. What are your views on this?

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[Sullla]

Two comments:

- I'm not sure it's a good idea to lie about our dealings with PAL. Seems like something that could be easily found out. Better to be more vague, or say nothing at all.

- Let's try to word things differently regarding the barb city. We don't *WANT* them to capture that city if at all possible. I'd rather us push for an agreement where we both agree to raze it (DMZ, contested border, yadda yadda). If they want to put a settler there later, make them spend the 10 turns of no-growth. No freebies for them. :)

[ruff_hi]

lie?? What lie? We have had very limited contact with PAL. Sure - in that time we have managed to arrange a tech swap but that only took 1 or 2 emails. Look at all the contact we have had with Templars by comparison. Hmmn - ok, maybe 'very' is stretching it a bit. How about 'limited contact'?

Was I saying they should keep the city ... oh, 'proceeds' - I meant the gold. I'll modify.


Barbarian City
As I noted in my short reply, we'll have some units heading that way shortly, but don't wait for us if you want to take and raze that city. Also, as you are taking the unit risk - feel free to keep the gold proceeds - it was a nice offer - but its only fair if you keep the gold.

[sooooo]

Email looks fine to me.

[sunrise089]

Quick change:

"Also, as you are taking the unit risk - feel free to keep the gold proceeds - it was a nice offer - but its only fair if you keep the gold."

is maybe too long. How about...

"Also, as you are taking the unit risk - its only fair if you keep the gold."

[ruff_hi]

email sent with sunrise's word changes.

[ruff_hi]

another email from Templars ...

Dear Ruff,

I wish to discuss with you with what will probably be an important step in both our team's foreign policy. While no doubt it will take a lot of discussion in your team, it is important that we handle this fairly quickly.

Today we received an offer from PAL for an agreement on the exchange of techs. This has again brought up the question about how our two teams will continue to engage each other. So far our cooperation has been on an ad-hoc basis. Because you are our neighbor, however, and because we have both indicated a desire for closer cooperation in the future and building trust, I have deemed it appropriate to first contact you about this offer.

In connection with my previous letter, I wish to stress again that I think that we would mutually profit if we would coordinate our foreign policy a little and prevent ourselves from being played against each other. The misunderstanding that could result from such is potentially very harmful to our relationship. While we see no such intention in PAL's offer, we consider the scenario that a techtrade agreement signed by one of our teams could benefit that team to a level where it is doing a lot better than the other team, causing frustration with the other. My team wishes to prevent this scenario.

Again I want to underline that we desire more cooperation with your team and also on a more structural basis. Now that PAL has made an offer, it seems to us that our teams are standing at a crossroads. We could agree to enter in a techtrading agreement and give such an agreement prevalence over future bilateral tech agreements. It would most assuredly bring our teams closer together, it will certainly build trust, and will help to avoid misunderstanding and mutually harmful foreign policy.

My team would very much support that idea. It seems to us that such an agreement will be a good first step towards a solid partnership and perhaps one day the alliance we both have expressed to desire.

We hope that you will see the usefullness of this and understand that we need to decide this quickly, because we cannot let PAL wait too long.

Yours faithfully,

Sir Aidun
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar


Hmm - what are PAL playing at? I thought we were their trading partners! And the "the scenario that a techtrade agreement signed by one of our teams could benefit that team" has already occurred.

Comments?

PS: Sometimes something like this comes up and I would love the ability to 'buzz' the team. Do we have a list of personal emails that we could use to do this? Or are we just happy to wait for people to view the forum?

[sooooo]

The doublecrossing bar stewards! Hmm, not sure what to say. The Templars seem much more friendly and open towards us, only problem is that I doubt they'll be good techers and are rivals for our lands!

PAL are good techers but very sneaky. However, I doubt that either of us when we entered this tech agreement presumed that we wouldn't trade with anyone else. We shouldn't say anything to PAL until at least we make the trade for alphabet.

As to what to say to the templars ... not sure. I wonder what their intentions are by telling us this? It's very nice of them to tell us. Makes us seem a bit sneaky by saying to them that our PAL contact is limited.

[sunrise089]

Yep, PAL is playing sneaky here for sure, but we can't exactly call them out on it :)

My only question is what PAL has offered. They can't trade Iron Working or Sailing due to the "no tech brokering" rule (it sure we be great if they had forgotten about that though) so they're probably going to trade Alphabet to the Templars. The question is what can the Templars offer that's equally valuable? Perhaps all of the religious prereqs for Monarchy?

[regoarrarr]

Yeah - let's see if we can figure out what they have offered

[ruff_hi]

for me - the big question is do we fess up to Templars about our PAL tech trade?

[sooooo]

Well, when we trade IW for alphabet every team will know what we did. We can't really hide much.

Perhaps we could say:

Very recently they offered us the same proposal. We were wary, but agreed to an initial tech trade of our next tech (Iron Working) for their next tech (alphabet). We did not agree to a long term alliance, and from your infomation we now regard them as very sneaky and are unlikely to do so. We do plan to go ahead with that tech trade, but would warn you that they are trying to play us off against each other. Perhaps you would be interested in trading some of your religious techs for our sailing or archery?

[Sullla]

OK... I spent about a half hour pondering this message and thinking about how to respond. Here's how I see it.

The Templars aren't looking for any specific tech trade offers at the moment. What they want is some kind of general plan, in which we both pledge to enter a "techtrading agreement" to work together in the future. As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't have any problems signing a vague gesture of goodwill like that. The more tech trading partners, the better. That's one of the reasons why Kylearan's Epsilon team was so successful in their Demogame. Besides, weren't we just talking about running min science after researching Iron Working, while negotiating an agreement with Templars to trade for their cheap religious techs? This just plays into our hands.

At the same time, we need to state that both parties in this agreement (RB and Templars) should be free to make tech trades with other teams if the opportunity arises. This gives us an "out" for our current planned trade with PAL. We can therefore avoid telling Templars that we negotiated a trade dozens of turns ago. (Lying by omission is not the same as flat-out lying! :cute: ) So, to recap:

- Friendly greetings, we really appreciate you asking our advice on this, etc.

- Yes, we would be interested in a general tech trading agreement. Teams will work out specific details as time progresses. Suggest that we would be interested in trading Fishing + Sailing for Mysticism + Meditation, once "one of our teams discovers Alphabet".

- We aren't willing to commit to an exclusive tech trading agreement. Too early, maybe in time? We wouldn't want to tell them they can't trade with PAL.

- We would love a missionary from one of your religions, if you get the chance. (Don't need to tell them we are desperate for happiness right now. ;))

What do you think about something along these lines? If Templars want to be Piffle to our Epsilon, I say let them.

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by Sullla
If Templars want to be Piffle to our Epsilon, I say let them.

Not 100% sure what that meant so I googled it ... came up with this ...

I can offer a bit of advice here..

We are taking out the cities of Piffle to the SW. you will find transports in route to the city. We are aiding Epsilon in all aspects of military conquest. I have dropped research adn culture to have cash for upgrades.

To former alohans.. my whole goal has been to try for victory but at least get 2nd. Piffles double cross and their demand for all the techs and gold we had after they got nukes. Sealed their fate. I started moving troops by land to their area. I then contact Epsilon and asked for their support. They gifted me 2 galleons and the transport. In addition they gifted us a bunch of techs. I was shooting for second adn hoping they woudl nuke each other completly dead. This works just as well.

from http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=289340

[mostly-harmless]

My suggestion would be to reply along the following lines:

"Our believe is that each civ should capitalize on the assets it has, especially in the early grab phase. Our team has emphasized early scouting and could therefore spot good city sites, whereas you for example managed to outrace your rivals by being the first to both Polytheism & Monotheism consequently landing two early religions. (mh: the slight hint that we know about their techs is deliberate)
Other civs may gain gold from huts to allow them higher tech rates, while others might learn important early techs from huts like Animal Husbandry revealing strategic resources. (mh: again, deliberately hinting on our knowledge, stressing our perceived superior position here)
Our past diplomacy is ripe with disputes about those clashing strategies (city placement, aggressive positioning of units). Early alliances and mutual agreed strategies are exceptionally hard to agree on, as they run the risk to constrain one or both parties involved in their expansion phase. This said, we are happy we could solve our frictions peacefully.
We are of course attempting to come to the same peaceful understandings with other civs we meet and build up a foundation of trust and cooperation whenever possible. Our increased scouting efforts are well demonstrating that desire.
On the other hand your team seemed, for we are sure very good reason, to have followed a more isolationistic policy towards other civs, especially "yellow civ"/PAL.
Finally coming to the point.
We are happy for you to follow your own interests on the tech market, as we will expect nothing less in return. Once Alphabet becomes widely known in the world, we are sure tech trading opportunities will arise between our two civs, as we seem to have followed divergent tech routes up to now.
We want to emphasize that we appreciate your concerns, but feel the need to at least "test the waters" in the world in this early "shake down" era.
We urge you not to be alarmed but to see this an improvement of relationship as both parties are free to follow a more relaxed way forward."

Yadda, yadda, yadda.


Basically my points are:
o starting next to each other, does not make us automatically allies
o alliances may constrain development in this early phase
o they and we are free to do what we want on the tech market
o we are happy to cooperate with them should the opportunity arise
o no direct mentioning of a tech trade with PAL, as nothing has happened there at all.

Regarding PALs policy:
This is nothing backstabbing or alarming. We never claimed preferred tech traders status and they (like us) would never agree to that anyway. We approached Imperio and Templars as well with the prospect of future tech trades. So PAL contacting Templars if totally fine and above the table. After all Templars have some nice religious techs. If we are planning on selling away Monarchy to others later, they surely must know the basic tech for that first.

mh

[Kylearan]

Hi,

I'd like to echo Sulla: The more tech trading partners, the better. I'm a bit surprised that some of you think if we trade with PAL, we should do so exclusively (and assume the same of them). Trading with more than one team does not constitute "sneakyness" or "treachery" or anything like that, at least not in my book.

-Kylearan

P.S.: Sulla, I did read your question about how the CFC demogame went some time ago, but never got around to write a summary that might be able to provide insights for this game. Sorry for that, but daughter is keeping me very busy at the moment, and I have to confess I very much like it that way. ;)

For a summary of events at least, I can direct you to a video our diplomat has made after we've won:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1D60lNiO5M (Somehow, linking to youtube from apolyton doesn't wok ("malformed video id), so please copy and pase the link manually to your browser address bar)


The quality is low thanks to Youtube, so here's a hi-res version:

Hi-res video (http://rapidshare.com/files/147733431/EpsilonTeam_FinalVideo.wmv.html)

[sooooo]

Hmm, I much prefer Sullla's approach to mostly harmless'. I don't think the read-between-the-lines criticism of their opening strategy is productive or the mention of our previous disagreements. Whether we want to conquer them or befriend them, we don't want them to get wary of our intentions towards them.

I think my previous comment about telling them about PAL's agreement isn't very good and I retract it. I like the idea of a general goodwill gesture to trade techs, not exclusive, the more trading partners the better etc.

[mostly-harmless]

I don't see were Sullla's and my approach differ that much. I was more aiming at the issue of us already trading with PAL and how we justify this.
mh

[Zeviz]

I also agree with Sulla.

On the subject of justifying our existing agreement with PAL, if we send the message Sulla suggests now, we can tell them after a deal is made that "PAL approached us with an offer", without mentioning the "little" detail that they approached us weeks ago, rather than in the intervening period.

[ruff_hi]

draft email reply ...

Sir Aidun,

Greetings from Team RB. We appreciate you contacting us regarding this approach by PAL. You comments on tech trading within our continent and between continents all seem on point. The RB Team had previously asked me to approach you regarding a possible tech trade. Obviously you have concentrated on religious technologies and we would be interested in trading some of our development technologies (say, Fishing and Sailing) for some of these technologies.

Naturally, exact details still remain to be worked out as well as the need to wait for the in-game mechanics to allow tech trading (ie the discovery of Alphabet).

At this time, Team RB is not in a position to commit (or to consider committing) to an exclusive, long range, strategic tech trading agreement with The Templars. Not that you have explicitly suggested such but I felt it important to be explicit on this point. However, Team RB is very interested in explicit, short range, tactical tech trading agreements. Even to the extent of possibly sharing future Tech plans to facilitate Tech trading.

With regards to the PAL offer, did they discuss what techs they were seeking and what techs they were offering? Are they looking for a long term arrangement or a short term arrangement? We would encourage you to actively seek tactical trades as and when they arise (<-- Ruff: not sure on this last sentence).

On a slightly side issue, and as stated previously, Team RB would be interested in a State Visit by a Templar missionary as and when we can sign an open borders agreement.

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[Sullla]

I think the message sounds good. Grammatically, the sentence highlighted is a little awkward, but can stand as written without needing correction.

Let's wait another 12 hours or so to let others comment, then go ahead and send it. They did say that time was a factor on this one.

[sooooo]

I quite like it.

[Zeviz]

I like this message. Thanks for your diplomatic efforts.

[mostly-harmless]

Message looks fine.
On the missionary issue: We would somehow have to pay for that missionary I imagine. Might be worth just to wait for natural spread, especially if we can help happiness with Hereditary Rule & Wine.

mh

[ruff_hi]

email sent - mh raises a good point. How many hammers does a missionary cost? Do we balance this with an Archer (or similar)? What advantage do they gain via us having their religion? What about if they pop a shrine - do we get some of the gold generated?

I think this could become a very messy issue if we try and balance it out.

[sooooo]

Let's see first if they agree to just give us a missionary. They are roleplaying religious knights, maybe they will. If not, they will suggest a price themselves I'm sure.

[Zeviz]

Considering that they are roleplaying knights templar, they should be pretty happy that their neighbors "see the light of true religion". :)

[sooooo]

We should probably give some thought to the Templars right now. We would like three things from them: religious techs, a missionary and open borders (for trade routes).

@Cloak and Dagger experts: Do we have an up-to-date list of Templars' technologies? This will allow us to plan trades with them. Note we will not be able to offer writing.

For the open borders, I don't see why they would object. We can say we built a road to connect to them via a river (when it is built, it's only 1 road tile according to Sullla's plan) and could suggest a no-scouting rule if they want.

For the missionary we've asked before but they probably have more important things to build right now. Maybe they'll give us one later on.

[ruff_hi]

just sent follow up email to our last communication ...

Sir Aidun,

Good Morning - how are you today? Just reaching out to follow up to our communication of the 4th. The RB Team would value your input into some of these items.

Regards

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[Sullla]

Originally posted by sooooo
@Cloak and Dagger experts: Do we have an up-to-date list of Templars' technologies? This will allow us to plan trades with them. Note we will not be able to offer writing.

Begin with Mysticism and Agriculture
T1 Researching Polytheism
T11 Polytheism -> Masonry [now it makes sense!]
T21 Pop AH from hut, Masonry -> Monotheism
T34 Monotheism -> Mining
T40 Mining -> Wheel
T47 Wheel -> Bronze Working
T58 Bronze Working discovered
T64 Unknown tech discovered (best guess: Pottery or Priesthood)
T66 Hunting -> Archery
T70 Archery discovered

We have all but one of their techs pinned down. Best trade-bait opportunities are going to be Fishing, Sailing, and Iron Working. (The last would be really sweet to trade if it turns out that they lack iron!)

[ruff_hi]

send another follow up ...

Sir Aidun,

Are the Knights in seclusion during the Month of October? There are a number of items that we would like to discuss with you, not the least of which are the issues you mentioned in your last communication. Please let me know that you are getting this so that I can draft a longer email discussing the future of our continent.

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team
Will start drafting a longer email to mention Open Borders and our NAP with Imperio.

[ruff_hi]

email from templars

Dear Ruff,

We are very sorry for the miscommunication. While our order has taken leave for two weeks week of fasting and prayer in Jerusalem, it seems your messenger has been knocking on our doors. It is however strictly forbidden for the members of our order to leave the Temple and interrupt their prayer, and thus your messenger was neither noticed, nor let in. We should of course have informed you of this holy tradition of our order. Now that our weeks of fasting and prayer are over, we have let him into our halls and would shortly give him a message to bring back to you.

Please do draft the longer email to inform us of your plans, ideas, thoughts and everything else you feel the need to share with us. We will await this message of yours beforte we will reply.


Yours faithfully,

Sir Aidun
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar


reply ...


Sir Aidun,

Lucky I'd remembered to provide enough food to our messengers to cater for these sort of things. Message received. Please don't wait for our next email before replying - if you have housewives in your order, you will know that talking at gossip like levels actually results in a lot of knowledge transfer.

In other news, the RB team have a policy of rotating people and roles so that everyone gains experience in different areas. As such, I am being rotated out of intra-team communication.

Regards,

Ruff

[Zeviz]

I don't understand the line about housewives. Are you warning them not to say too much?

Also, I'd mention that Imperio signed a NAP with us in this message, because I am getting a feeling that Templars might be stalling for time, and the information about our NAP with Imperio might give them something to think about.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Originally posted by ruff_hi
I am being rotated out of intra-team communication

I hope you mean inter- instead of intra-! We would really miss you otherwise. ;) :D

-Kylearan

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by Kylearan
Hi,


I hope you mean inter- instead of intra-! We would really miss you otherwise. ;) :D

-Kylearan

Nope - I meant 'intra' as in 'within team'. This whole 'intra' / 'inter' thing is often confused. This is assuming that it still works when I sub out 'state' and in 'team'.

Interstate (http://www.business-words.com/dictionary/I.html)
- between or among two or more states, as in: Federal laws cover interstate commerce.


intra (http://www.sfaf.org/custom/glossary.aspx?l=en&a=I)
- prefix meaning within.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Originally posted by ruff_hi
intra (http://www.sfaf.org/custom/glossary.aspx?l=en&a=I)
- prefix meaning within.
Exactly. So "intra-team communication" to me means communication within the team - which I hope you will still do in the future, i.e. talk to us. ;) "Extra-team communication" would mean communication from within our team to other teams, i.e. between teams.

An analogy would be "Intranet" (communication within a network) vs. "Internet" (communication across different networks).

But maybe I do understand this wrong, not being a native English speaker?

-Kylearan

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by Zeviz
I don't understand the line about housewives. Are you warning them not to say too much?There is an Isaac Asimov short story about space communication with someone who is 9 hrs (speed of light) away. The whole issue is 'do we say something and wait for their reply' which would make communication stupidly slow. This scientists mother says 'don't be silly - just keep talking like wives over a back fence and any part that doesn't make sense, then they will ask for clarification.' It might be a little bit obscure (ok, maybe more than a little bit) but it will be a great item for the new diplo guy to open the next communication with.

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by Kylearan
Exactly. So "intra-team communication" to me means communication within the teamduh - no, I got it wrong. I obviously meant 'intra-team' rotation out of the 'inter-team' communication role. See what happens when you try to be smart and use the right word ... you put it in the wrong place.

[Sullla]

OK, as much as it is to play with semantics... let's start working on our real reply to Templars. :)

Talking points to cover:

- Open Borders agreement. I think that both of our teams will probably want to agree to this. We can discuss including a "no scouting" clause of enemy territory.

- Templars missionary. We can make a formal request, and see if there's anything they want in return.

- Resource trades. Neither team has anything that the other needs right now, but might be good to mention as far as setting up future cooperation.

- Imperio NAP. Do we mention with Templars? Probably we should, and warn them that an Imperio military buildup could be trouble for them.

- Tech trading. More formal agreement to exchange for some of their religious techs (?) It seems like we could make some natural exchanges.

Plenty of things to cover. Let's come to an agreement on what we want to say.

[Zeviz]

For the Sulla's agenda above:

1. I'd propose OB, talking about trade income and some RP talk about friendly ties, etc, etc, and mention that if they want, we can include a clause against scouting of each other's lands for now.

2. It's a little early to ask for a missionary, considering that we don't yet have religious techs to spread it further.

3. We can include something like "we are open to ideas of resource trades, although it looks like neither side currently has any resources the other one needs".

4. This is a very important point. I'd even include some wondering about Imperio's continued increase in soldier points.

5. We should research Mystecism ourselves, so we can offer to buy any further religious techs they have for things like Sailing and IW.

[mostly-harmless]

- OB are less critical if Imperio agrees. However, we want OB with Templars as well, in case PAL refuses and we need more international trade routes.
- Missionary should wait. Lets see what natural spread we can get from having access to three religions via OB & trade routes.
- Imperio NAP: yes mention it. It is a good deterrent I believe.
- Resource trading: What could they have we want before Calendar?
- Tech trading: Yep, lets see what their ideas are.

mh

[sooooo]

Open borders - yes, let's ask for them.

Missionary - it cannot hurt to ask.

Resources - agree with Sullla's point

Imperio NAP - yes, we should mention that they contacted us for said pact and, since we had no plans to start any wars on our continent, agreed.

Tech trading - the most important bit. We should probably suggest trades in our email.

[Swiss Pauli]

I'll draft something in the next couple of hours and post on here for approval & editing.

[Swiss Pauli]

Version 0.1:

Greetings Sir Aidun!

It’s fallen to me to take over from the estimable ruff_hi as RB Team ambassador. I’m sure you share our delight that our two realms are now linked by road, so this seems an opportune moment to request Open Borders. We would gladly accept a limited agreement, excluding right of passage for units, should you harbour concerns over the nature of our intentions.

And speaking of intentions, we are somewhat alarmed about Imperio’s troop build-up: they approached us in the early game to propose a non-aggression pact. We agreed as we have no plans to turn our continent into a bloodbath. Did they make a similar request of you?

Let us turn to trade: whilst no opportunity for a resource trade presents itself at the moment, we’d gladly consider such business in the future. For now, we’d like to focus on exchanging technologies for our mutual benefit. To wit:

[add trades, maybe throwing in a missionary into the deal(s)]

yours etc

Can someone add the all-important tech deals? Ta.

[Zeviz]

Some of the words in your message, such as "harbor", have negative connotations, so I tried to rewrite it in a more positive language. Also, I changed the language to present proposals in a way that hilights their interests. (for example, starting tech trade offer with what they would get, and using words like "propose" instead of "request") What do you think of this version?

Greetings Sir Aidun!

It’s fallen to me to take over from the estimable ruff_hi as RB Team ambassador. We are delighted to see that a river now provides trade connection between our realms, so this seems an opportune moment to propose an Open Borders Treaty. Such an agreement would help bring our nations closer together and create prosperity through trade. If you have reservations about fully opening borders to each other, we can include a "no scouting" clause, so the Treaty is used purely for trade, and does not allow units to enter borders.

And speaking of intentions, Imperio recently approached us to propose a non-aggression pact, to which our peace-loving nation has agreed. However, their military strength continues to grow, so we are wondering if they've signed a similar treaty with you. (If they did, we'd be curious why they keep training troops at the same rate as before.)

Let us turn to trade: whilst no opportunity for a resource trade presents itself at the moment, we’d gladly consider such business in the future. For now, we’d like to focus on exchanging technologies for mutual benefit. Your people are wise in the mysteries of religion, while we pursued more worldly paths, learning to sail the seas and work with metals. Once the opportunity presents itself, would you like to exchange this knowledge, getting Sailing for Mystecism and Polytheism?

[signature]


PS In my second paragraph I tried to inconspicuously imply that we suspect Imperio plans to attack Templars under protection of a NAP with us. Did that work, or should I make it less/more obvious?

[ruff_hi]

2nd is better and more fitting with the tone that we have taken with Templars in the past (ie wordy).

[Sullla]

I like the second message as well (not that Swiss Pauli's message was bad, just that version 2.0 improved upon it). I would quickly add:

- Neither of our teams actually has Writing right now, so we can't actually initiate Open Borders yet. We need to reword the first paragraph slightly to make this clear. (That is, we would like to open borders once the option becomes available soon.)

- Sailing and Polytheism have the same base beaker cost (100) so Mysticism + Polytheism for Sailing is grossly unequal to Templars. We should amend this to give them a more even trade. Either Polytheism for Sailing, or something like Iron Working (200) for Polytheism (100) and Monotheism (120). We can play around with these numbers and come up with something.

[Zeviz]

I didn't remember tech costs off the top of my head and thought they already have Writing. So how about the following version:

Greetings Sir Aidun!

It’s fallen to me to take over from the estimable ruff_hi as RB Team ambassador. We are delighted to see that a river now provides trade connection between our realms, so this seems an opportune moment to propose an Open Borders Treaty that can be signed as soon as one of use can write it down. Such an agreement would help bring our nations closer together and create prosperity through trade. If you have reservations about fully opening borders to each other, we can include a "no scouting" clause, so the Treaty is used purely for trade, and does not allow units to enter borders.

And speaking of intentions, Imperio recently approached us to propose a non-aggression pact, to which our peace-loving nation has agreed. However, their military strength continues to grow, so we are wondering if they've signed a similar treaty with you. (If they did, we'd be curious why they keep training troops at the same rate as before.)

Let us turn to trade: whilst no opportunity for a resource trade presents itself at the moment, we’d gladly consider such business in the future. For now, we’d like to focus on exchanging technologies for mutual benefit. Your people are wise in the mysteries of religion, while we pursued more worldly paths, learning to sail the seas and work with metals. Once the opportunity presents itself, would you like to exchange this knowledge, getting Sailing for Polytheism, Sailing and Iron Working for Polytheism, Meditation, and Monotheism, or some other trade package?

[signature]

[Sullla]

I like it. Maybe one last line like "These are just initial possiblities, feel free to counter-offer tech proposals that you feel are advantageous."

And we need some sort of flowery role-playing signature. The Templars like that kind of stuff. :)

[Zeviz]

I'll add the line you suggest in the end before sending. For the signature, I am thinking of

Zeviz,
Deputy Minister of Internal Affairs and Interim Ambassador of Realms Beyond

Is that title impressive enough? :p

[ruff_hi]

I like your email - title is a bit wordy but maybe just about perfect because of it.

[Zeviz]

Message sent.

[Zeviz]

I just noticed that Imperio has OB with Templars.

I wonder what this implies about their plans.

[Swiss Pauli]

Templar's reply:

Dear Zeviz,

We are pleasantly surprised with your team's choice for our new ambassador. We look forward to exchanging ideas for further cooperation with you. Please bring Ruff my compliments for his excellent role as your team's former ambassador to us.

Trade brings nations together. Just like your team, we are also delighted at your efforts to connect our territories by the river. We look forward to the possibilities for trade it offers.

We welcome your proposal for open borders. However, we feel that open borders must be accompanied by a border agreement. Of course we have discussed this topic in the past, alas, without a satisfying result. We welcome your positive relations with Imperio in that respect. We also have very good relations with Imperio and our continuously ongoing negotiations are very fruitful. Despite the positive relations with Imperio, however, the language barrier would make a mighty obstacle for three-way negotiations for the border agreement, making them extremely difficult. Therefore we are prepared to accept a preliminary bi-lateral agreement which governs exclusively the territories between our current borders. The agreement would be official, but should in the future be replaced by a three-party agreement. With this concession from our side we are prepared to agree with your proposal for open borders.

The reason for our position regarding the open borders follows from the idea that open borders is something for teams that have solid diplomatic relations. While our relationship is very friendly, it lacks a solid foundation that ensures that it is still going to be very friendly in the future. We regard this as a principle: that you don't enter in mutually beneficial deals unless there is a foundation for the friendliness in the form of agreements.

For the tech trading it is the same: we are well prepared to engage in mutually beneficial tech trade, but we can't afford to supply a friendly neighbor with techs, only to hope that this neighbor will be wanting to trade techs with us in the future. Therefore we think tech agreements, especially with neighbors, should be long-term. We have sensed reservations on your team towards long-term commitments. To make it a bit easier for your team to make such commitments, we are prepared to offer your peace-loving team certain concessions or commitments that will help maintain peaceful relations between our teams.

One such commitment is the pledge regarding settlement we have given you. Another such commitment is our expressed desire of a peaceful and cooperative relationship. We are open to formalizing such commitments and pledges in the form of a NAP for example, just like you have with Imperio, would you want to. If you think other concessions or commitments from us would be appropriate, do not hesitate to bring them up. We'll gladly consider the ideas.

I hope this helps you.

Best regards,


Sir Aidun
Foreign Affairs Minister of the Knights Templar

[Swiss Pauli]

The most salient points IMO:

We welcome your proposal for open borders. However, we feel that open borders must be accompanied by a border agreement.
Looks like they want to draw up borders. Should we draft a map for them, or ask them to put forward a proposal?

Despite the positive relations with Imperio, however, the language barrier would make a mighty obstacle
Looks unlikely that they'll form any sort of miltary pact against us with Imperio as a result.


We are open to formalizing such commitments and pledges in the form of a NAP
This is the offer I think we were looking for.

I will reply now acknowledging receipt of the message.

[Sullla]

Oy, what a pain these guys are. I think they want to try and talk their way out of every situation. If they spent half the time PLAYING the game as they did talking about it... :rolleyes:

Anyway, the good news is that we can pretty safely say that Templars have absolutely no plans to attack in the near future. (If so, it's the most masterful series of double-speak communications ever!) We can concentrate most of our new military units in Cape Town in the forseeable future, with a somewhat lesser presence in the Pink region. A couple key highlights, in addition to the ones pulled out by Swiss Pauli:

Therefore we are prepared to accept a preliminary bi-lateral agreement which governs exclusively the territories between our current borders. The agreement would be official, but should in the future be replaced by a three-party agreement. With this concession from our side we are prepared to agree with your proposal for open borders.

I added the bold. This is practically agreeing to nothing - we won't go after their current two cities. If they plant more cities later on our border, we could then capture them in war fairly. (Do the Templars even realize this?) I still don't know what they mean by this "three party" nonsense. I'd tell them that we desire peaceful coexistence, but we don't think it's reasonable for the Templars to try and dictate our foreign policy with Imperio. We have to see if we can get them to shut up about such a silly, impossibly idealistic goal!

Therefore we think tech agreements, especially with neighbors, should be long-term. We have sensed reservations on your team towards long-term commitments. To make it a bit easier for your team to make such commitments, we are prepared to offer your peace-loving team certain concessions or commitments that will help maintain peaceful relations between our teams.

I am intrigued by this idea of "concessions." Let's here more about that, heh heh. :D Maybe we can weasel a missionary out of them.

Anyway, I think the proper way to respond is to suggest that making early tech trades builds trust and paves the way to long-term tech agreements. How can we commit ourselves to a permanent tech alliance before making a single tech exchange? Trust must be established over time, not demanded as a pre-existing condition for any kind of an agreement. Say that we're willing to meet them halfway on this, but they have to meet us halfway as well.

Obviously, we need to spend a couple days discussing this as a team and come to a conclusion on what to do. For my two cents worth, I would agree to any reasonable agreement Templars want right now. If they want an NAP at the current borders, yeah, sure. (We'll use that time to continue expanding!) If they want a firmer commitment to tech trading, OK. (We're not going to get much of anything from Imperio, so having some deals in place with both PAL and Templars makes sense.) The only way they beat us is to attack us NOW, while they're relatively strong. The longer this game goes on, the more of an advantage we have, with our edge in cities and population.

(Quick fun exercise: I counted up city spots we're likely to grab, and I ended up with 13. I did the same for Templars and got about 7 for them, and about 8 for Imperio. The longer the game lasts, the more this advantage will tell! And we're awesome, don't forget that. ;))

Here's an ideal future for our team. In the immediate future, we concentrate on expanding and building up our economic infrastructure. We consolidate in the late classical and early middle ages, and look to make a move sometime in the latter middle ages/early renaissance period. We get to Nationalism first and begin drafting maces or Oromo warriors (muskets), we can take out a rival of our choice. Try to control the continent by the industrial age and then pick a victory condition from there. Easier said than done though!

Sorry if this went far afield, just trying to lay out my vision of where we're trying to go! :cool:

[sunrise089]

@Sullla: I don't have any issues with what you've written, but would you mind explaining how we can attack future Templar cities? From my readings of their message all I interpreted them to mean was that they want to mark of territory between RB and Templars and not worry about our border with Imperio.

[mostly-harmless]

Regarding a potential upcoming border agreement.
I have drawn up a first map with spots we would allow Templars to settle on. Yellow ticks mark the furthest city placement spots. Note that I deliberately allowed for invalid spots in the Constantinople BFC to appear less knowing. Also the iron is edited out of the map.

For the teams eyes only I also put next to it the map with some explanations, existing cities, BFCs of existing cities. Pink dot marks Iron spot. White dots mark planned next cities.

<img src=http://apolyton.net/upload/thumb/800/95156_border_agreement_v1.JPG> (http://apolyton.net/upload/view/95156_border_agreement_v1.JPG)<img src=http://apolyton.net/upload/thumb/800/95156_border_agreement_v1_expl.JPG> (http://apolyton.net/upload/view/95156_border_agreement_v1_expl.JPG)
Thoughts?

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

Good work, mh!

I'd slightly change the thinking behind it and I would not marked 'allowed cities' but I'd put on our mutual borders. I'd suggest that we mark the borders for the Twin Peaks area, and give Templars the honour to mark the PinkDot/Fish-Marble borders.

I'll try to illustrate this if I can...