Team Info and Contacts - Imperio

[ruff_hi]

Imperio

astrologix
azona
Barack_Obhama
Carorn
cxlau4891
enredao
ivanm_082
jm_ruiz
Magno_uy
Marlock
monozulu
Naldorinho
Rammstein76
X_MiTH_X (TL)
Zside

email: mith.civ@gmail.com

[mostly-harmless]

Some info from the Cloak & Dagger thread.

I will keep that post updated as we know more about them.

Moved their settler the initial turn to settle capital on Turn 1
No coastal start but a all-landtile start like ours, with no water tiles in the BFC.

Research goes into Bronze Working.
Production goes into a worker.

Capital popped 2nd ring on turn 6.

Worker finished earlier than ours due to being expansive.

Bronze Working researched on turn 16.

Capital grown to size 2 on turn 21.

Second tech (fourth altogether after Mysticism, Mining & BW) researched on turn 23. It is either Hunting or Animal Husbandry (unless the patch changed the soldier points on techs as well!!!) Anyway, a worker-food-tech would make sense as their worker so far could only do mines and chops.

Imperio meets RB on turn 27.

As of now they have not swapped to Slavery yet, so have not used the whip (their capital is still size 2). From the even espionage points balance of RB/Templars we can derive that Imperio and Templars have not yet met.

From their warrior ("Tarzan" woodsmenII) I assume their land lies far away in the NE, as Tarzan (2moves in forests) only approached Templar lands now and Templar scouts have not met Imperio before.

Furthermore, a reminder that Imperio missed to log in and play their turn at least once last week. A possible sign that their civ is suffering from leadership problems, making their assumed rush politics less of a threat?

Updated 05/07/2008 mh

New update (Oct. 28)

T1 Building worker
T15 Worker -> warrior
T22 Warrior -> Stonehenge
T36 Stonehenge complete (61 shields production + 3 forest chops) -> settler
T46 Settler -> Holkan
T50 Holkan finished
T51-56 Likely a second worker built here next (?)
T59 Build holkan #2 or chariot #1
T65 Build holkan #3 or chariot #2
T70 Build holkan #4 or chariot #3
T73 Build holkan #5 or chariot #4
T75 LOSE holkan or chariot to barb! (Now 1 holkan and 3 unknown 4000pt. units)

T49 Lakamha (city #2) founded
T52 Islam founded in Lakamha
T57 Lakamha size 2

Begin with Mysticism and Mining
T1 Researching BW
T16 BW -> Agriculture (?) [not certain, but this is the only possible logical choice]
T23 Agriculture -> AH
T34 AH -> Wheel
T41 Wheel -> Hunting
T45 Hunting -> Meditation
T52 Meditation discovered, Islam founded
T56 Cheap Non-military tech discovered - Priesthood (?)
T60 Non-military tech discovered, very likely Pottery
T69 Iron Working -> Fishing
T70 Fishing -> Writing
T74 Writing discovered
T76 Discover a cheap ancient-era tech, Archery (?)


Special: Hilariously incorrect predictions!
T57 Strongly suspect that Imperio is building Oracle :lol:


- Sullla:

[sooooo]

OK, we have met imperio now. Perhaps we could summarise our info about this team and draft a "hello" email.

[mostly-harmless]

There is the option to tell them about the Templars, although I would argue against giving away that info.
I suggest waiting one more turn to check if they already met someone else (can be seen from the espionage points) before officially contacting them.

mh

[Zeviz]

I wouldn't start an exchange of information until after an exchange of greetings.

[mostly-harmless]

How about sending them the "standard" (Templar) greetings?
Ruff? Is our diplomatic corps around?

mh

[Zeviz]

I agree about sending a standard greeting to all the teams we've just met.

[ruff_hi]

email sent ... but via apolyton as I don't have an email address as yet. I have requested one.

"Greetings from Civ4 BtS Democracy Game - RealmsBeyond

Well met Good Sir!

It is my outstanding pleasure to meet you and I hope that I find you well and good. I look forward to many years of fruitful contact between our great nations.

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team"

[mostly-harmless]

Looks like Imperio again failed to finish a turn.
Turn 28 completed after 48 hours. One Imperio player logged in for 2mins, but did not finish the turn.
Unless their units are goto orders, it seems they have a little problem.

mh

[Sullla]

Hmm... perhaps Imperio is not as fearsome as we initially feared. Hopefully whatever problems they are having will not be sorted out.

Poor Ruff! We write all these messages to the other teams, and no one ever responds. I thought the whole point of a Demogame was to work out all sorts of deals with the other competing teams (?) :hmmm:

[regoarrarr]

No, no, I think the point of the Demogame is that you spend so long on each turn so that you can spend the time EACH TURN to come up with complicated MM XLS scenarios :D

[sooooo]

A picture of Imperio's capital for reference:

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6403/mayansdx7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by sooooo
A picture of Imperio's capital for reference:

I can't see how a Sword and/or Catapult rush on our two neighbors isn't the best plan.

Darrell

[sunrise089]

Originally posted by darrelljs


I can't see how a Sword and/or Catapult rush on our two neighbors isn't the best plan.

Darrell

Depends on how early and whether or not they have horses. You are correct that swords+cats are the main mid-ancient game offensive stack, but if the enemy has horse archers ready they can flank the $%&# out of the cats.

In my, against decent players, offensive cats are very difficult to keep alive.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Originally posted by sunrise089
In my, against decent players, offensive cats are very difficult to keep alive.
I believe you, however, if our neighbours continue to play how they play I suspect it shouldn't be *that* difficult... :rolleyes: ;)

-Kylearan

[ruff_hi]

not sure this thread is the right place for a sword + cat discussion. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure we don't have iron.

Reached out to X_MiTH_X again ...

Mith, not sure if you got our contact message (see below). Our email address is teamrealmsbeyond@googlemail.com and that would be the best way to contact us.


Well met Good Sir!

It is my outstanding pleasure to meet you and I hope that I find you well and good. I look forward to many years of fruitful contact between our great nations.

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[Zeviz]

Originally posted by Kylearan
Hi,


I believe you, however, if our neighbours continue to play how they play I suspect it shouldn't be *that* difficult... :rolleyes: ;)

-Kylearan
Since you have the most demogame experience here, how uncommon would an ancient era war be? If this is supposed to be a friendly game, would an early rush be appropriate?

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Originally posted by Zeviz
Since you have the most demogame experience here, how uncommon would an ancient era war be?
My demogame experience amounts to one game only, and the map was very different - designed by Sirian (and thus more balanced...), and much larger. An ancient era war would have been much more difficult and much less profitable. As it turned out, nobody attempted to wage war that early. So I don't think this will help us much here... :(

What I noted though was that in our team, warmongers had a hard time getting heard during our discussions of future plans. As long as no consensus is reached in a team, it's always easier to continue building and researching and communicating with other teams while continuing the discussion than it is to focus on a war effort and declaring war. So my guess would be we see less wars than if this game would be played by individual players.

This is different for teams which only a few active players and a lot of lurkers. As it happened, our last war in the other game was started by our turn player without the rest of us agreeing to it, while "the rest of us" amounted to 2 or 3 players. ;)

Our team will win in a couple of turns, and the discussion forums of the other teams will be opened then for us to read. I'll report back then how early strategy discussions in the other teams looked like. :)

-Kylearan

[ruff_hi]

quote from letter from Templers ...
The reason I asked about your team's diplomatic contact with Imperio is because ours is somewhat hindered by a language barrier. We speak no Spanish and they speak little English. Just like your team's contact with them, ours has been sparse too.
Do we have any spanish speakers or are we going to rely on google / bable fish?

[regoarrarr]

I speak spanish, though my vocabulary of words like "quechua" or "beakers per turn" is limited :-D

[ruff_hi]

Great - can you reach out to these guys and see if you can a) get an email address and b) start some sort of dialog?

[darrelljs]

I speak Spanish and my wife is a native speaker (if you want someone to proof read what you write). I actually thought they were doing some kind of role playing thing, but maybe they literally mean no one on Imperio speaks english.

Darrell

[sunrise089]

Didn't we already have successful English communication with Imperio?

Also, my Spanish is terrible, but I can at least be confident that "quechua" is the same in all languages :)

[Zeviz]

Originally posted by darrelljs
I speak Spanish and my wife is a native speaker (if you want someone to proof read what you write). I actually thought they were doing some kind of role playing thing, but maybe they literally mean no one on Imperio speaks english.

Darrell
Looking at the level of English exibited in their signup thread, I'd guess that Templars aren't exaggerating.

We could establish much stronger diplomatic ties if we speak with Imperio in their native language. The only caveat is that we'd have to make sure the communication goes through people who are somewhat fluent in Spanish, so we aren't back to the same misunderstandings we'd have using English.

Darrell, thanks for the offer to proofread. It will be very helpful if we do decide to communicate in Spanish.

[darrelljs]

Zeviz,

Sure, should be fun. I'll be relying mostly on my wife; I came to Spanish as a second language while she is a native speaker. Seems like pretty much everyone from that team is actually from Spain. I saw one from Pananma and one from Argentina. So I guess we should try and use idioms from Spain in our correspondence. I do have a friend from Spain who would be willing to proof anything, I'm sure.

Spain is on quite the roll...Euro Cup, Nadal, Tour de France. Let's hope we can put a stop to it ;).

Darrell

[sunrise089]

Originally posted by darrelljs
Zeviz,

Sure, should be fun. I'll be relying mostly on my wife; I came to Spanish as a second language while she is a native speaker. Seems like pretty much everyone from that team is actually from Spain. I saw one from Pananma and one from Argentina. So I guess we should try and use idioms from Spain in our correspondence. I do have a friend from Spain who would be willing to proof anything, I'm sure.

Spain is on quite the roll...Euro Cup, Nadal, Tour de France. Let's hope we can put a stop to it ;).

Darrell

But Fernando Alonso is having such a delightfully bad Formula 1 season :) :) :)

[Zeviz]

Let's send them a quick message in Spanish to open diplomatic communication before Templars do.

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by regoarrarr
I speak spanish, though my vocabulary of words like "quechua" or "beakers per turn" is limited :-D

regoarrarr,

Can you take the initial letter? I still won't be able to do anything with this until Sunday at the earliest.

Thanks,
Darrell

[regoarrarr]

Sorry - I'm out of town till Tuesday and won't be able to either :-(

[mostly-harmless]

So lets draft up an English letter. AFAIK X_Mith replied to Ruff in English, no?

mh

[Zeviz]

Yes, English is better than nothing.

[darrelljs]

Sorry I haven't been able to get my wife's time; our cause is not helped by her dislike of CIV ;). I would suggest asking if they'd prefer to correspond in Spanish going forward (we can mention we know from their sign-up thread their team is mostly from Spain and Latin America). It might be the better course anyway, make it a polite offer rather than an assumption they can't handle English.

Darrell

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by darrelljs
Sorry I haven't been able to get my wife's time; our cause is not helped by her dislike of CIV ;). The trick here is to play to your strengths. You know that she doesn't like you just playing a stupid game on a PC. But if you tell her that you are actively developing your communication skills with mutli-langauge people and also working on your team building skills, listening to others and building moral ... she will see the positive spin off form this for her.

Ruff

[mostly-harmless]

Turn 41: another turn with no Imperio activity whatsoever.
:dunno:
mh

[darrelljs]

Didn't we send them something in English? I think the ball is in their court...

Darrell

[ruff_hi]

I tried several times to send something to X_Mith_X but I'm not sure that anything got through. I never got a reply.

Edit: PM at apolyton is for Plus members only (I'm not a plus) so it probably didn't get anywhere.

[darrelljs]

Okay...do we have an e-mail address? I guess I'll hit the little woman up again for some help :).

Darrell

[ruff_hi]

no email either. See their sign on thread for info.

[Zeviz]

Originally posted by ruff_hi
I tried several times to send something to X_Mith_X but I'm not sure that anything got through. I never got a reply.

Edit: PM at apolyton is for Plus members only (I'm not a plus) so it probably didn't get anywhere.
I've just sent you a PM. :)

The "PM indicator" is for plus members, but the messages themselves can be sent and read by anybody.

To send a message:
1. Find a person's post and click PM link near the top.

To read a message:
1. Click Control Panel link in the same row as the link you've tried clicking.
2. Go to Private Messaging tab.

[Sullla]

Any action here? Should we try contacting Imperio again? :confused:

[ruff_hi]

I haven't tried again.

[Sullla]

I think it's time we tried contacting Imperio again. Can we send them another message, essentially repeating the original one and possibly congratulating them on settling their second city? I feel like we should at least try to get on their good side, since it costs us very little to do so.

[ruff_hi]

I haven't done this. Was one of the trial spanish speakers going to try? Our recent email from PAL mentioned that they sent them a 'greetings' message too.

[Zeviz]

Ruff, please try again in English. Regardless of how relations with Templars go, we need to make sure Imperio stays at least neutral.

[mostly-harmless]

Hah, while trying to solve the Imperio-Religion riddle I made chat-contact with Imperio (they were online the same time).
Here is the chat log:
<img src=http://apolyton.net/upload/thumb/800/95156_Civ4ScreenShot0371.JPG> (http://apolyton.net/upload/view/95156_Civ4ScreenShot0371.JPG)
Note the eMail address.
Ruff, this calls for immediate action. :-)
And the second part of that conversation:
<img src=http://apolyton.net/upload/thumb/800/95156_Civ4ScreenShot0373.JPG> (http://apolyton.net/upload/view/95156_Civ4ScreenShot0373.JPG)

mh

[ruff_hi]

well done mh!

email sent ...

Greetings,

It is good to get your email address. Can you please reply to this to let me know that I got your email address correct.

I understand that your team is a Spanish speaking team - please let me know if I have this incorrect. My team is an English speaking team. This will make communication difficult as we have to deal with written as well as different languages. As such, I suggest that we try to communicate as plainly as possible.

Have you had any contact with PAL or Templars?

I shall send another email shortly.

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

What do we want to say in a fuller email? The above screenie shows them talking about a NAP which is a shorthand for Non-Aggression Pact that I think they picked up from Templar.

[ruff_hi]

reply ...

Greetings,

The address is correct.

We speak spanish but could try write in english. We try communicate as
plainly we can.

We have contact with bouths.

Un saludo.

So - what do we want to say?

[darrelljs]

If you get me something in English, I can get a translation within 48 hours (likely within 24 hours).

Darrell

[Zeviz]

Good job making contact. :)

I think NAP with them might be a good idea, since we are planning to focus any potential agression on Templars, and it's good to have some trading partners besides PAL. What does everybody else think?

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by Zeviz
I think NAP with them might be a good idea, since we are planning to focus any potential agression on Templars, and it's good to have some trading partners besides PAL. What does everybody else think?

Yeah...and if we can somehow work it out so we can trade techs with them, but they and PAL aren't trading techs, we can really focus on production. That would be quite the coup, but I doubt it is very likely.

Darrell

[mostly-harmless]

We have to keep in mind, that tech brokering is not allowed, IIRC.

I am happy for an official NAP with Imperio.
Also Open Borders, when we have a realistic chance to get Islam & trade from them.
(btw. Founding Islam at the doorstep of the Templars, sure is a slap in the face :-))
Judging from their regular turn misses, I would not go into a more detailed and close relationship, i.e. no tech pact or anything.

mh

[ruff_hi]

draft email

MiTH,

We would like to discuss a Non-Aggression Pact with you. The main points are what this means, how do we define it, renewal options and time frame. We are also interested in discussing the possibility of trading some technologies.

Cheers,

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[mostly-harmless]

Sounds good.

mh

[Zeviz]

One small correction: please add "in the future" on the end of the sentence about tech trading.

Although, should we even talk about tech trading now, months before we buy Alphabet?

[mostly-harmless]

Also, please send in Spanish & English as a backup.

mh

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by mostly-harmless
Also, please send in Spanish & English as a backup.

The request is in!

Darrell

[darrelljs]

Queremos discutir un "Non-Aggressive Pact" con ustedes. Los puntos mayores son: que siginifica esto, como lo definimos, opciones de renovacion y período de tiempo. Tambien nos gustaria compartir sobre intercambios de tecnología.

The above is my wife's best shot at it. She said it would definitely be understood, but is probably not the best translation. I have forwarded her translation to a friend in Spain to double check it, but that might take some time. I suggest we just send this as is, along with the english.

Darrell

[ruff_hi]

latest draft ... and apologies to darrelljs' wife for the few small changes ...


MiTH,

We would like to discuss a Non-Aggression Pact with you. The main points are what this means, how do we define it, renewal options and time frame. We are also interested in discussing the possibility of trading some technologies in the future.

While we aren't Spanish speakers - here is the best translation of the above that we can produce ... Queremos discutir un "Non-Aggressive Pact" con ustedes. Los puntos mayores son: que siginifica esto, como lo definimos, opciones de renovacion y período de tiempo. Tambien nos gustaria compartir sobre intercambios de tecnología.

Cheers,

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[Zeviz]

Darrell, thanks for the translation.

The draft looks good, but the dash after Spanish speakers should be a comma. And I don't know Spanish, so can't comment on translation.

[mostly-harmless]

Shall we mention, that they should press "Enter" at the end of their turn? Or just enquire whether they do that on purpose? We are always waiting for the turn timer to run out because Imperio does not press "Enter".

mh

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by mostly-harmless
Shall we mention, that they should press "Enter" at the end of their turn? Or just enquire whether they do that on purpose? We are always waiting for the turn timer to run out because Imperio does not press "Enter".

I was thinking yes, but later in the dialgoue after we've established friendship.

Darrell

[mostly-harmless]

Have you sent the message, Ruff?

A tech trade agreement with Imperio would be nice, as it could help us get all the religious techs we need on our way to Monarchy.

mh

[ruff_hi]

message sent and acknowledged by Imp - they are discussing.


We are talkingabout.

[darrelljs]

Here is a spot on translation, but I guess it is too late to send it:

Nos gustaria discutir el pacto de no agresion con ustedes. Los puntos principales son: lo que esto significa, como lo definimos, opciones de renovacion, periodo de programacion (aqui me parece que es la opcion correcta, creo que por el contexto puede ser tambien periodo de tiempo o cronograma). Nosotros estamos interesados tambien en discutir acerca de la posibiilidad de intercambio de tecnologia.

Darrell

[mostly-harmless]

Latest contact with Imperio.
<img src=http://apolyton.net/upload/thumb/800/95156_Civ4ScreenShot0451.JPG> (http://apolyton.net/upload/view/95156_Civ4ScreenShot0451.JPG)
The thing about the version warning popped up when they connected.
It said "Version warning, the player trying to connect uses a different version of the game. Verify the player's identity" or so.
Anyone had this before?
Could it be down to them having a Spanish version?

Regarding the NAP, the last line (not captured on the screenshot) had this guy saying they would be ok with an NAP for 25 turns.

mh

[ruff_hi]

NAP for 25 turns - that is not worth the paper it is written on and should be a very easy agreement for us. It will take us at least 25 turns to get the military we would need.

Do we say yes - or suggest +50 turns?

[mostly-harmless]

I agree that 25 turns is nothing. I suggest to wait for confirmation from their team leader to see what they really suggest.

The problem I personally have with any NAP is that they can't really be relied upon. In fact they will make a successful backstabbing plan more likely. So both parties will have to prepare for that scenario.
And also, once they expire and are due to be renegotiated, relations will be instantly strained if one party refuses to agree to a renegotiation.

mh

[ruff_hi]

The NAPs that I have seen in PBEM games have been very long term (ie until there is 100 turns left in the game) and have had a 50 turn (or so) renegotiation period - thus giving clear indications that the NAP will not be renewed and giving both teams time to respond appropriately (ie build units).

As it turned out - I won the game via space 8 turns before the NAP was to expire :D.

[sunrise089]

"Could it be down to them having a Spanish version?"

Doubtful. MP folks play with French, Russian, Polish, and German folks all the time. Do they not have unique versions of the game but Spanish players do?

Normally that warning message comes from a modded game file. Most of the time that's due to a CD crack. Theoretically it can also be due to some sort of hack. So be on the lookout for Imperio Modern Armor running around :)

[ruff_hi]

follow up email sent. Will draft a fuller version accepting the 25 turn NAP tomorrow morning.

[ruff_hi]

reply from MiTH (Imperio) ...

Hi,

Sorry for the your waiting.

We are very intersting in a NAP. We thing in NAP+20. This is that if you
o we want broke the pact need say it 20 turns before.

In the moment of we can open frontiers an change tecnology we are very
interting in it.

Maybe we can coordinate our investigation. What is your propousal.

Thanks very much and sorry for the english.

Ahh - that makes sense. They are suggestion a NAP for an undisclosed period with a 20 turn buffer post expiry (or notification of NAP cancellation.

I suggest we strongly push a 50+20 turn NAP (50 turn NAP with a 20 turn cancellation or non-renewal period).

Terms
1) Non Aggression Pact from now until Turn 100.
2) Can be canceled at any time.
3) No war declaration until 20 Turns after cancellation or Turn 120 whichever is earlier.

They are also feeling us out about open borders (when one of us gets the tech), tech trade (again, when one of us gets the tech) and tech research pacts.

Edit: Draft email ...

Imperio,

Team RB would like to propose the following:

Non Aggression Pact (NAP)

Terms:
1) Imperio and Team RB enter a NAP until Turn 100.
2) The NAP can be canceled by either team at any time.
3) War between Imperio and Team RB cannot be declared until 20 turns after cancellation (or Turn 120 if NAP expires with no cancellation)

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[regoarrarr]

What is the point about specifiying a 50 turn length if it can be cancelled at any time?

[ruff_hi]

It sets a maximum, you can just let it expire, it forces you to renew it (or not).

[Sullla]

I wouldn't have any problems with that; I think we largely agree that Templars would be a better target for potential aggression than Imperio.

We should make sure that everyone (or a large group) agrees with the proposal before inking such a significant deal though.

[sunrise089]

Yeah, the 50-turn limit is smart - it's a Pocket Veto. We get the same result as an outright cancellation without any (or much) of the political fallout.

[Zeviz]

I agree, because the 50 turns can also be seen as a minimum, so it would guarantee the security of our land grab.

[sooooo]

Fine by me

[mostly-harmless]

Yep, fine.

[ruff_hi]

I think that is a quorum ... I'm traveling this afternoon and will forward above draft when I get home (about 7 hrs from now).

I'm also AWL (Away with leave) until Friday night - can someone please keep an eye on our email?

[ruff_hi]

email sent

[ruff_hi]

no response from Imperio. Can we get a spanish translation of the above - I think it makes us look pretty good that we are going to the effort of translating - even if the translation is pretty bad. Just as long as it doesn't look like babel-fish.

[ruff_hi]

bump - any Spanish translation out there?

[darrelljs]

Oops...I haven't been paying too much attention lately. Let me try and get something.

Darrell

[sooooo]

Once we settle our next city we may need some major brownnosing with imperio to sooth their concerns. Just a heads-up!

[darrelljs]

Imperio,

El equipo RB le gustaría proponer lo siguiente:

Pacto de no Agresión

Términos:
1) Imperio y el equipo RB comienzan el pacto de no agresión hasta el turno 100
2) El Pacto de no agresión puede ser cancelado por cualquier equipo en cualquier momento
3) La guerra entre el Imperio y el equipo RB no puede ser declarada hasta 20 turnos después de la cancelación del pacto (o del turno 120 si no hay cancelación del pacto de no agresión)

[ruff_hi]

Spanish version sent. Original was sent Sept 16th with no reply.

[regoarrarr]

As you may have already seen - they just responded to our email, saying

=========
The Imperio team are agree with the terms of the pact.

We considerate the pact singned in this moment.

Sorry for the lag in the answerd, we are searching a better embassador to
speak with your team in english. My level is so bad and many part of the
team was very busy.

MiTH of the Imperio.

=====
Kind of funny timing given our little tete-a-tete with the settling :-D

[mostly-harmless]

If we are really paranoid:

They must be pretty sure to settle ahead of us. So signing the pact just now makes sense from their point of view, as their city would have caused some concern with us and the NAP will give them breathing time to stand up the city. They could have held back the NAP because they wanted to see if they could get their first safely.

They might be in for a surprise.

But again, this is a thought if we are really paranoid.
;-)

mh

[regoarrarr]

I think you are partially right. I think that they do think they are going to claim this area before us because they have not seen our settler or have any idea that we have one anywhere in the area.

And so since they probably (rightfully so) consider this kind of neutral territory, they want to take it and then have the NAP backing them up.

Since they've already moved this turn (as have we) there's no way they can guarantee they beat us. Even to settle in place they have to make sure they play the next turn before us, which is an even guess.

So count me in the camp of "they're going to be in for a surprise"

[mostly-harmless]

I think an acknowledgment of the NAP is in order together with a quick statement regarding Cape Town.

"...apparently you wanted to settle there as well ... contested region ... we are sure there are lots of other good spots ... hope they still stand by the NAP ... although recently teched to Iron Working ..."

mh

[sunrise089]

I wouldn't mention the anything about a "contested region" and I CERTAINLY wouldn't mention that we hope they abide by the pact. The moment we introduce the idea that the pact is something that might not be honored I think we weaken our hand.

I think a simple "we're happy we've established a pact and look forward to working together" is best.

[ruff_hi]

sorry about this but I did bounce an email back to them within 2 hrs of getting their email. However, I didn't post it here ...


Mith,

Great news.

Ruff

[regoarrarr]

I agree with Sunrise

[mostly-harmless]

Yep, sunrise, you are right.

mh

[Sullla]

Since we already responded to their email confirming the NAP, do we need to respond again? Maybe, maybe not. I agree that sunrise makes some excellent points about not weakening our hand. Still, we should probably say SOMETHING about Cape Town, right?

Talking is almost always better than saying nothing in these games.

[sunrise089]

i don't know Sullla. I tend to think we shouldn't say anything now. I mean, this appears to be a very aggressive plant, and it seizes resources, and it snatched the spot out from under them. I know it's actually just as close to our cap as theirs, but mentioning that before they've criticized the spot seems more likely to provoke anger than soothe it. Can anyone think of a way for us to bring up Cape Town without it twisting the knife?

[ruff_hi]

humour would work but it might not be translatable to Spanish. And after sitting here for 10 minutes thinking about it, I couldn't come up with anything that would work.

[sooooo]

Hmm, I'm not sure we should say anything about cape town. It's hard to think of anything we could say without it coming across as rubbing their faces in it. They have just discovered IW so maybe they are sending their settler to grab iron instead.

[Zeviz]

We need to start writing up OB proposal if that's possible in game. We can also ask about the price for their spare gold.

[mostly-harmless]

I think a very simple message like:
"Hello, we see you have researched Writing. Would you agree to an Open Border agreement to strengthen our relationship and allow for more trade route income. It will also allow your Tarzan warrior to return home sooner."

And a Spanish version if possible, but ideally we want to fire away that message to Imperio soonest.

mh

[Zeviz]

The simple message you suggest sounds good to me.

[sunrise089]

Sounds good

[Sullla]

I have nothing to add either. "Fourth"ed in agreement on the quick message. :)

[Swiss Pauli]

I'll email Imperio with mh's message today.

[Sullla]

Since it's been a week and we haven't heard back from Imperio, can we re-send the same message? And any chance of getting it to them in Spanish? (darrell?)

If we're going to sneak our scout/galley combo onto the other continent, we need to negotiate OB with Imperio relatively soon.

[Swiss Pauli]

Ah. Now you mention it, I seem to have forgotten to send the email :blush: Will do so right now.

[Swiss Pauli]

Email sent. Apologies for the blooper.

[Zeviz]

They've agreed to open borders!

MiTH to me
show details 11:12 AM (9 minutes ago) Reply


We are agree.

Realms Beyond escribió:
- Hide quoted text -


Hello,
We see you have researched Writing. Would you agree to an Open Border agreement to strengthen our relationship and allow for more trade route income? It will also allow your Tarzan warrior to return home sooner.
Best Regards
Swiss Pauli

[sooooo]

We now have open borders with Imperio. 3 of our cities (all excpet Cape Town) have Imperio trade routes and are getting 2 commerce compared to the 1 commerce from the internal trade route.

[Sullla]

Excellent! :D

Leaving aside the economic benefits, our galley is due in 4 turns, and Sharon will be ready to board it for a little trip overseas. :naughty: (If we're feeling real safe, we can send our extra warrior at Cape Town along for the ride too.)

[mostly-harmless]

Very good. (Out of interest: it seems we did not have to be logged in at the same time to agree to OB? Is that correct? How did it work?)

Imperio did not even get any benefit from it at all, I believe. They already have OB with Templars, so their three cities should have been linked to Templars three cities to gain more commerce. OB with us only helps them further economically if they settle new cities soon.

I proposed a Grand Tour in the Turnplayer thread for our Scout instead of boarding the galley at the Cape.

mh

[Zeviz]

Should we start negotiating tech trades with them?

Yes, the are a leader in GNP, but it's better to trade with everybody than with nobody, and we are going nowhere with Templars.

[mostly-harmless]

Lets wait for the Alphabet trade and then confirm our C&D tech assumptions. Then we will know for sure what we can and can't do.

mh

[Zeviz]

Proposed message:


Hi,

Do you want to buy Sailing and Archery for Mysticism and Masonry? (All the techs we can trade right now, and cost is even.)

Zeviz,
Realms Beyond

PS How much do we have invested in masonry already?

[regoarrarr]

Looks like maybe 10-20 beakers?

[Sullla]

We've invested a total of 7 beakers into Masonry. Not worth worrying about one bit. Let's go ahead and suggest that deal, rather than trying to explain the complications of a Mysticism/Meditation deal (which involves waiting a turn for in-game mechanics) to a team of non-native English speakers.

Can we get a quick translation of Zeviz's message to Spanish? Even Babelfish could probably handle that one. :)

[Swiss Pauli]

I thought it was Medi and Masonry that was the even deal, not Myst & Masonry?

If I'm right then we should ask for gift of gold for X turns, or a gifted missionary to event he deal.

[mostly-harmless]

We have to get Myst first before we can get Meditation.
The current deal leaves us with ~40beakers short. However I rather sacrifice that to get the deal done at all.
We can maybe try to get those beaker back in a later trade.
For ow I would fire off that deal quickly.

mh

[mostly-harmless]

Since Imperio are not known for be very talkative, maybe we can offer them the Medi&Mono vs. Sail&Arch trade ingame as well. Ideally this turn before (if) they log in. 16hrs to go.
Thoughts?


mh

[Zeviz]

EDIT: Never mind just saw post in turnplayer thread. Should we just make an in-game offer of Meditation+Masonry for Sailing+Archery and/or send the message now, without waiting for translation? (Even their English should be enough for this.)

[mostly-harmless]

Yep send it is as it is now and I will make the trade offer in game.

mh

[Zeviz]

Sent the following message:

Hi,

Do you want to buy Sailing and Archery for Meditation and Masonry? (All the technologies we can trade right now, and cost is even.)

Zeviz,
Realms Beyond

[regoarrarr]

I would do both.

[Swiss Pauli]

Message sent:

Hi Imperio,

We'd like to make another trade proposal:

Realms Beyond gives: Monotheism

Imperio gives: Priesthood and an Islamic Missionary (to compensate the difference in beakers).

We look forward to your reply.

Thanks,

Swiss Pauli

[Zeviz]

Sulla mentioned that even with Islam at the capital, a free missionary (and saving a turn of research) would be good. So should we send Imperio a message? If so, let's do it now, before they research Mono themselves.

Here is the suggested trade: Monotheism for Priesthood and 1 Islamic Missionary.

EDIT: It looks like I somehow missed Swiss' post. Thanks for sending the message so quickly.

[mostly-harmless]

I am pretty sure that I have pinned down the position of Uxmal (Imperio's 4th city) down to two spots based on C&D data.

3x Fish and opening the monopole on the other early happy resource (Furs).

<img src=http://apolyton.net/upload/thumb/800/95156_Civ4ScreenShot0676.JPG> (http://apolyton.net/upload/view/95156_Civ4ScreenShot0676.JPG)

mh

[Sullla]

Man, I wish our northern tundra looked like that!

Sharon should be able to find the exact location as she moves north over the next few turns.

[Sullla]

Second thought - if PAL is backing out of their trade with us, it opens up new avenues. How about we suggest trading Monotheism (171) and Mathematics (357) to Imperio for Priesthood (85) and Monarchy (429)? Beaker count is nearly identical. Researching something Imperio already has doesn't make much sense, IMO.

Can we get an email to this effect off to Imperio? We need to know quickly if a deal like this is in the works. Maybe mention that we have to know in the near term for our own research plans.

[regoarrarr]

With Swiss OOP - does anyone else have the time / email to get this off to Imperio?

[Zeviz]

Suggested message:


Hi,

Do you want to buy Mathematics and Monotheism for Priesthood and Monarchy? If yes, we will have the techs ready in about 9 turns. We hope that, unlike PAL who broke a long-term research agreement we had with them, you'll follow through on any trade we agree.

Thank you,
Zeviz

[sunrise089]

I would do this:

"Hi,

Would you like to trade Mathematics and Monotheism for Priesthood and Monarchy? If so, we will have the techs ready in about 9 turns. We look forward to many mutually beneficial trades between our civilizations. We recently had PAL back out of a long-term deal, so we know how valuable trustworthy trading partners can be.

If you agree to the trade, please let us know as soon as possible, by Sunday at the latest. We don't mean to rush you, but we have to make sure we direct our research the right way.

Thank you,
Zeviz"

MESSAGE EDITED DUE TO SULLLA'S POST BELOW

[Sullla]

Both messages are good, but sunrise's is a little more diplomatic. Do we want to mention that we need a response quickly? (We will finish Monotheism in a mere 2 turns, and need to know where to go next.)

[Zeviz]

The reason my message sounded abrupt is that I tried to make the language as simple as possible. However Sunrize's does sound better. When should I sent it?

[Sullla]

Wait about 8-12 hours to give others a chance to comment, then send it. Also, if anyone encounters Imperio in-game, make sure to mention this.

[mostly-harmless]

Sounds good. Send it.

mh

[Kylearan]

Hi,

"we had PAL back out of" sounds like PAL has sent us a message saying "sorry, after all we've decided not to do the trade we had agreed to earlier", which wasn't what happened. What happened was worse, that they just turned their back on us without any communication at all. Could we somehow convey this? Maybe "...back out of without even talking to us", "back out of without any warning" or something like this?

Otherwise, it sounds good!

-Kylearan

[Zeviz]

I'll apply Kylearan's modification and am sending the following:

Hi,

Would you like to trade Mathematics and Monotheism for Priesthood and Monarchy? If so, we will have the techs ready in about 9 turns. We look forward to many mutually beneficial trades between our civilizations. We recently had PAL break a long-term agreement without warning, so we know how valuable trustworthy trading partners can be.

If you agree to the trade, please let us know as soon as possible, by Sunday at the latest. We don't mean to rush you, but we have to make sure we direct our research the right way.

Thank you,
Zeviz

PS I might not be able to log in during the weekend, so somebody will have to check for reply. The team address is TeamRealmsBeyond@gmail.com and password is same as for the game.

[sooooo]

From Imperio:

Hello friends.

We change our email count to organizate better the diplomacy of Imperio. In the future comunication this is your new address.

Thanks very much.

The Imperio Team.

(the address is imperiodg@gmail.com)

[sooooo]

Unless there are any objections, I will send this mail in a few hours:


Dear Imperio,

Thankyou for your mail. Here is a mail we sent you a few days ago - I will resend it in case you did not receive it at your old address:

Hi,

Would you like to trade Mathematics and Monotheism for Priesthood and Monarchy? If so, we will have the techs ready in about 9 turns. We look forward to many mutually beneficial trades between our civilizations. We recently had PAL break a long-term agreement without warning, so we know how valuable trustworthy trading partners can be.

If you agree to the trade, please let us know as soon as possible, by Sunday at the latest. We don't mean to rush you, but we have to make sure we direct our research the right way.

Thank you,
Zeviz

[mostly-harmless]

no objections

mh

[ruff_hi]

reply ...

Dear Tealm Realm,

We are researching Maths now, so maybe other trade?

If possible that a member of your team can read spain? , we can read english well but have very bad write.

[regoarrarr]

I could probably read it and didn't someone else say they (or maybe their wife) could read Spanish?

Maybe we could just tell them to send it in Spanish and their best shot at English and between the 2 of them we could hopefully figure it out?

[sunrise089]

Heck, if it gets faster turn-around, lets just let them send in Spanish only. English+Spanish will probably be slow, since they will probably wait for their English speakers to chime in. I don't think we'll give up more in nuance then we'll gain in quicker turn-around.

[Swiss Pauli]

Just emailed Imperio to say they're fine to email us in basic Spanish.

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by regoarrarr
I could probably read it and didn't someone else say they (or maybe their wife) could read Spanish?

That would be me...I'm not checking this game regularly anymore (although I am enjoying it when I do!), so if you guys want translation help send me an e-mail ping just to be safe.

Darrell

[Zeviz]

Should we suggest Aestetics for Math trade now? (Considering that they might be starting research into aestetics themselves.)

[Sullla]

Echoing Zeviz, here's another deal we could float with Imperio:

First part: Aesthetics (429) for Mathematics (358)
Second part: Literature (286) + Monotheism (172) for Monarchy (429)

Total RB = 887
Total Imperio = 787

This would be a pretty ballsy trade, but if we are truly confident in our ability to get the Great Library on the same turn we land Literature, why not go for it? The downside is that if we propose this trade, and it turns out Imperio is already researching Aesthetics, we've just revealed our plans to them and gotten nothing back in return! :eek:

Do these thoughts have any merit, or should we try to play it safe here?

[ruff_hi]

I like it Sullla - why not float the first part and sit on the second part for a while - just get them to acknowledge the beaker difference and that we will call that 'in the future'

[Zeviz]

I agree with Ruff: Let's start with first part (mentioning "some beaker credit") and then proposing second part if first part goes well.

[regoarrarr]

Well the 2nd trade is also in our favor ($58-429) so there's no need to cash that in on the 2nd trade

That said I still think it's a good deal for us

[mostly-harmless]

Sounds good.
Also mention briefly the war between PAL and Rabbits and what they think about it. They might not have noticed it.

mh

[sooooo]

Sounds good to me.

[ruff_hi]

draft email ...


Hello Imperio,

We would like to propose the following future technology trade:

Aesthetics (429) for Mathematics (358)

We are currently x turns from completing Aesthetics and would like to trade then.

Team RB

[sooooo]

EDIT: nevermind

[sooooo]

I think no one has objected to the trade so I'd say go ahead and send the email.

[ruff_hi]

email sent - replaced 'x' with 'a few'

[Zeviz]

Sounds good.

[Swiss Pauli]

Draft email:

Hi Imperio,
We note that PAL has declared war against Rabbits. With Team Banana not playing properly, this means there's a big danger that PAL will destroy both of these teams. If this happens, PAL will easily win the game.

We have not made contact with Rabbits, so we ask you to trade them Feudalism now, and ask that they give you techs in future to make the trade fair.

We realise this is big decision for you to make, but we don't see any other way of stopping PAL from winning the game.

It's a big problem that the main Imperio players are away, but it can't hurt to ask them to save the Rabbits.

[ruff_hi]

I would be explicit here ... something like ...

"... so we ask you to gift them Feudalism (for longbows!) now ..."

[regoarrarr]

Might mention too that Rabbits cannot re-trade it so they don't have a risk of any other teams getting it

[Sullla]

Let's also put in a reminder of our Aesthetics/Mathematics trade offer, which they haven't responded to.

[sunrise089]

Good draft Swiss, I would send with the three additions added in like this:

"Hi Imperio,
We note that PAL has declared war against Rabbits. With Team Banana not playing properly, this means there's a big danger that PAL will destroy both of these teams. If this happens, PAL will easily win the game.

We have not made contact with Rabbits, so we ask you to gift them Feudalism (for longbows!) now, and ask that they give you techs in future to make the trade fair. Fortunately Rabbits cannot re-trade gifted techs, so there is no risk of any other team gaining an advantage.

We realise this is big decision for you to make, but we don't see any other way of stopping PAL from winning the game.

On another slightly less urgent (but still important) note, we haven't yet received a response to our Aesthetics/Mathematics trade offer.

-RB "

[Zeviz]

Sounds mostly good, but I have one minor rephrasing in the second paragraph:

"We have not made contact with Rabbits, but perhaps you can gift them Feudalism (for longbows!) now, and ask that they give you techs in future to make the trade fair."

This removes the "we ask" part, because this will be just as good for Imperio as it is for us, so we shouldn't make it sound like they are making us a favor.

[T-hawk]

I like Zeviz's approach; I'd soften the request even further and explain a bit more. Something like

"Would you consider gifting Feudalism to Rabbits, and ask that they give you techs in the future in exchange? Longbowmen would help very much for Rabbits to survive PAL's attack. Rabbits can't re-trade Feudalism, and surely pose no threat to you, so this move might be in everyone's best interest to stop PAL."

[Zeviz]

T-hawk's version looks even better.

[Sullla]

Great. :b: Let's have Swiss Pauli put it all together and sent it off ASAP. Time is a factor here.

[sunrise089]

To make the copy/paste easy for Swiss:

"Hi Imperio,

We note that PAL has declared war against Rabbits. With Team Banana not playing properly, this means there's a big danger that PAL will destroy both of these teams. If this happens, PAL will easily win the game.

We have not made contact with Rabbits, so would you consider gifting Feudalism to Rabbits, and ask that they give you techs in the future in exchange? Longbowmen would help very much for Rabbits to survive PAL's attack. Rabbits can't re-trade Feudalism, and surely pose no threat to you, so this move might be in everyone's best interest to stop PAL.

We realise this is big decision for you to make, but we don't see any other way of stopping PAL from winning the game.

On another slightly less urgent (but still important) note, we haven't yet received a response to our Aesthetics/Mathematics trade offer.

-RB"

[T-hawk]

I like it. Although we're probably too late, after the news in the public forum that Rabbits have already lost two cities including their presumed capital.

[Swiss Pauli]

I'll send the message today, but with the game seemingly down, the urgency has decreased slightly.

[Swiss Pauli]

I made a couple of edits:

Hi Imperio,

We know from the in-game information screens that PAL has declared war against Rabbits. With Team Banana not playing properly, this means there's a big danger that PAL will destroy both of these teams. If this happens, PAL will easily win the game.

We have not made contact with Rabbits, so would you consider gifting Feudalism to Rabbits, and ask that they give you techs in the future in exchange? Longbowmen would help very much for Rabbits to survive PAL's attack. Rabbits can't re-trade Feudalism, and surely pose no threat to you, so this move might be in everyone's best interest to stop PAL.

We realise this is big decision for you to make, but we don't see any other way of stopping PAL from winning the game. With the game down at present until 3 January you have some time to discuss this within your team.

On another slightly less urgent (but still important) note, we haven't yet received a response to our Aesthetics/Mathematics trade offer.

Season's Greetings!

Team RB

[sunrise089]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
I made a couple of edits:


And sent it, right?

[sooooo]

Yes, the email has been sent. Anyone can check our inbox or sent messages at gmail. Our username is TeamRealmsBeyond and our password is the one we use in game (VariantScum).

[regoarrarr]

Got a message from Imperio after we told them about Krill being the game admin

Gracias por avisar, a ver si ponen la partida en marcha y os respondemos al otro mensaje que nos mandateis.

Translation: Thanks for letting us know - we'll see if this gets the game going and we will respond to your other message that you sent us.

[Zeviz]

Got a message from Imperio after we told them about Krill being the game admin

Gracias por avisar, a ver si ponen la partida en marcha y os respondemos al otro mensaje que nos mandateis.

Translation: Thanks for letting us know - we'll see if this gets the game going and we will respond to your other message that you sent us.
It looks like you used "CODE" instead of "QUOTE" tag, so Imperio's message wasn't visible. Thanks for translation.

[sooooo]

Not sure if this has been noted or not, but Imperio have the Islamic shrine.

[sooooo]

Maybe we should just finish aesthetics this turn and propose the mathematics trade in-game. That should concentrate their attention on the matter.

[mostly-harmless]

The shrine has been noted. (675BC)

mh

[regoarrarr]

Is it worth sending them a followup asking if they had decided one way or the other about Feudalism to Rabbits?

[Swiss Pauli]

Well, Rabbits would have to know Monarchy for this trade to be possible and they didn't have it a turn or two ago. I don't see that Imperio will be able to make the trade in time to save the Rabbits, but at least we've flagged the possibility to Imperio.

[mostly-harmless]

I believe a simple way to test the waters with Imperio is to try to extend out current NAP.
Remember that our current agreement gets automatically cancelled at T100 with another 20 turns guaranteed "hold fire" period.
I suggest we offer them to extend the NAP another 50turns (+10turns grace period).

mh

[Zeviz]

Sounds like a good idea.

[Sullla]

I concur, and let's ask again if they are interested in the Math/Aesthetics swap. Can someone draw up a message, and try to get the email off by the end of the day?

[Swiss Pauli]

I'd simply forward the original proposal and ask them to confirm whether they're interested, or not.

[Zeviz]

Swiss, sounds good.

[Sullla]

From the turnplayer thread:

I don't want us to give up on Imperio just yet. Let's send them another email asking if they'd be willing to trade for Monarchy. We can offer them a sweet deal of Monotheism + Aesthetics for it, for example. I just don't want us to waste time researching a tech that's so widely known already. Keep pushing this team - we definitely want to get either Math OR Monarchy from them. Not getting either would be a real setback!


Let's keep at it with Imperio. Also, whenever someone sends an email, please post a message to that effect. Otherwise, I'm never sure if we've actually sent off a message!

[mostly-harmless]

@ diplomats: Did we sent anything to Imperio? Asking for a extended NAP?

mh

[ruff_hi]

not me.

[mostly-harmless]

Well, could you do it please?

Simple text:
We propose another NAP until T150+10. Do you agree?
Will you trade Mathematics vs. Aesthetics?

mh

[ruff_hi]

Mith,

With regards to the Non Aggression Pact (NAP). Team RB would like to extended this as follows:

Terms:
1) Imperio and Team RB enter a NAP until Turn 150.
2) The NAP can be canceled by either team at any time.
3) War between Imperio and Team RB cannot be declared until 10 turns after cancellation (or Turn 160 if NAP expires with no cancellation)

Also - we would like to trade 'Aesthetics' for 'Mathematics'. Are you interested?

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team


Not sent - draft in our email account. Will send this evening.

[Zeviz]

Sounds good.

[sunrise089]

Do we want to make the backup offer of Aesthetics + Monotheism for Monarchy in the same email? Otherwise it looks good.

[mostly-harmless]

looks good.
mh

[sooooo]

Aesthetics has the same beaker cost as Monarchy. Why do we need to offer monotheism too?

[sunrise089]

To sweeten the deal to get the more desirable trade. I would offer Aesthetics with both potential trades, and then add in Mono for the tech we'd prefer.

Obviously they weren't interested in Aesthetics for Math, so we can add Mono to that offer or swap to Monarchy. Of course we could always offer just Aesthetics for Monarchy, then add in Mono for math, and then finally Aesthetics and Mono for Monarchy...but the Imperio communication is too slow for that I think.

[Zeviz]

Let's offer "Aestetics + Monotheism for Math, or Aestetics for Monarchy".

EDIT: However, we are about to start chopping, so we should send something either today or tomorrow. Otherwise, Math will lose a lot of its value.

[ruff_hi]

I just sent the following ...


Mith,

With regards to the Non Aggression Pact (NAP). Team RB would like to extended this as follows:

Terms:
1) Imperio and Team RB enter a NAP until Turn 150.
2) The NAP can be canceled by either team at any time.
3) War between Imperio and Team RB cannot be declared until 10 turns after cancellation (or Turn 160 if NAP expires with no cancellation)

Also - we would like to execute a tech trade ... do any of the following options interest you?

'Aesthetics' for 'Mathematics'
'Aesthetics' for 'Monarchy'

We also have Monotheism that we might include to sweeten the deal.

Ruff
Your Voice to the Realms Beyond Team

[Sullla]

Looks great Ruff. :)

[Zeviz]

Looks good.

[ruff_hi]

reply ...


Hi Ruff,

I'm traslating the propusal to the team. I hope could reply in short time.

Tanks very much for all.

MiTH from Imperio.

[ruff_hi]

reply ...


Hi Ruff,

I'm traslating the propusal to the team. I hope could reply in short time.

Tanks very much for all.

MiTH from Imperio.

[mostly-harmless]

Interestingly Imperio went into Serfdom.

mh

[Dreylin]

& not vassalage? That's a good sign.

BTW, with their FP-heavy start <Sigh> they may well be aiming for Hanging Gardens, so maybe some assurance that we will not be attempting it may help sway them to agreeing to trade Maths?

[Dreylin]

Hmmm, I guess there's been no reply for what, 3days? Is it time to send them another note about Mathematics? I really think it may help if we stated that we will not be pursuing Hanging Gardens....

[mostly-harmless]

Why would we not pursue Hanging Gardens?
Once we finally break the happy limit a empire wide pop increase is quite good, especially for a vast empire like ours.
And we will have stone available once we have Saxon.

mh

[regoarrarr]

Do we know if Imperio has stone? If so, do we know from the C&D if they're working on anything with a doubler that could be the HG?

[mostly-harmless]

Yes, I believe Imperio has stone connected east of Lakamha.
And no, it does not look like they are doing anything with a doubler at the moement. They are certainly chopping something at Chichen Itza, but that could just be that they are paranoid towards us, clearing the killing grounds.

And don't forget, an aqueduct is needed for the Hanging Gardens. We have not seen one yet.

mh

[Sullla]

Imperio does have stone. They have no aqeducts anywhere, however, and they certainly aren't building any wonders right now. Not unless it's in city #5 (Mayapan), which is the only one where we don't have line of sight. And that city was founded 8 turns ago and is still size 1. :)

I like the idea of going for Hanging Gardens in the near-term future. With stone, we have an excellent shot to get it. Best place would likely be Pink Dot, which has great shield production and tons of forests just waiting to be chopped. If any civ could use the +1 pop boost, it would be ours!

[mostly-harmless]

I talked to IMperio ingame. They are discussing NAP and tech trade.

mh

[mostly-harmless]

I think it is time for a follow up message along the lines of:
1.) What about NAP? We don't want to engage in an arms race.
2.) Trade Aesthetics vs. Mathematics (offer valid for 5 turns)

mh

[mostly-harmless]

Doh. Double post.

mh

[Zeviz]

Sounds good. Can somebody write up and translate the message?

[Sullla]

Yep, keep pushing them diplomatically. Even if we get a bunch of "no" answers, that reveals a lot about their plans too.

[Swiss Pauli]

I sent a simple chase-up email this morning as I don't have time today for anything more sophisticated:

Hi Imperio,

We're still waiting for a reply from you on these topics; it's been 11 days since your last message. We would like a response (positive or negative) by the end of January.

Best Regards

Swiss Pauli

[mostly-harmless]

Just a general comment:
I know we want to speed up our diplo responses, but can we arrange it, tat we see the message before it goes out?

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

Just a general comment:
I know we want to speed up our diplo responses, but can we arrange it, tat we see the message before it goes out?
If I'm going to look after the diplomacy then, no, I won't be putting forward the text of every message for team approval as experience has proven that it simply takes too long to get a quorum of responses, and agree a final text.

In cases where the message content is highly sensitive/important I'll always submit these for approval.

[Swiss Pauli]

an this one...

[Swiss Pauli]

deleted

[mostly-harmless]

Wrong thread, Swiss.

mh

[Swiss Pauli]

Just a note that Imperio failed to reply to my chase up message before the 31 Jan deadline.

[Sullla]

I think we should try one final time to try and get Math from Imperio:

Would you be interested in trading Mathematics (357) for Aesthetics (429) and Literature (286)? We are willing to offer a great deal in beakers.


Or something like that. Worst they can do is say no, right? Obviously it would really help us out if we could go straight to Horseback Riding/Construction as our next techs.

[Zeviz]

Send this message with a translation. They'll probably refuse, but we can try.

[mostly-harmless]

It is too good a deal to offer Imperio, I think. They are GNP leader after all.

mh

[regoarrarr]

How about

¿Estarían interesado en darnos Matemáticas (357) para la Estética (429) y la literatura (286)? Estamos dispuestos a ofrecer mucho en "beakers"

That was from babelfish with my edits. Man it's been awhile since i spoke spanish :-)

[Sullla]

It is too good a deal to offer Imperio, I think. They are GNP leader after all.


But is it better for us to sit on Aesthetics and get nothing further out of it? We can spend the next six turns researching Math - a tech, I should add, that every civ worth a darn in this game already has - and getting even further out of the trading loop. Or, we can can try to use Aesthetics/Literature, our one and only trade chit at the moment, to get something out of it.

I know, I don't like trading with Imperio either! But we've got to get more out of our research than just one exchange with PAL. Ideally, we trade Aesthetics/Literature to every team and get something in return, like Templars just did with Metal Casting. If we were to get Math from Imperio, and then Metal Casting from Templars, think how much better off our position would be!

They'll probably reject the offer anyway, but I would like to float the idea at the very least. Then we could go right onto HBR and trade it to PAL right when they get Civil Service, thereby staying with the tech leaders. Isn't it worth a shot?

[Dreylin]

I agree with Sullla, every turn we spend researching "duplicate" techs is another 2 turns we fall behind - one for the tech and another for the tech we could have been researching.

[Swiss Pauli]

Are we sure about the tone of the message? I know we are desperate (6 turns for Maths - ouch) but do we wish to appear so?

[sunrise089]

I'm fine with Sullla's proposal and its translation, but any rephrasing of the second sentence to make it sound less eager is also fine.

[Zeviz]

Maybe just get rid of the second sentence. (It's obvious that it's a great deal, so no need to repeat it.)

[Sullla]

We could just send this then:

¿Estarían interesado en darnos Matemáticas (357) para la Estética (429) y la literatura (286)?


Assuming again that the team agrees on offering the trade. :)

[sunrise089]

Looks good.

[Swiss Pauli]

Message sent.

[Sullla]

While the game is down, let's fire off a quick message to Imperio asking if they'd be interested in trading Currency for any of our current techs. I fully expect them to ignore us and not respond, but that doesn't leave us any worse off than we are right now. And an extra trade route in every city would be huge if for some reason they'd be willing to trade!

Aesthetics + Literature for Currency is still a good deal in pure beaker count (not so much for in-game value, naturally...)

[Zeviz]

How about this message:

[quote]Do you want to buy Aestetics(beaker value?) and Literature(beaker value) for Currency(beaker value)? If not, are you interested in any other technology deal?[quote]

[regoarrarr]

Quieren comprar ustedes. la estética (beakers) y literatura (beakers) para la moneda (Currency - Beakers) ¿Si no, están ustedes interesado en otro reparto de la tecnología?

Not sure if that's how the game translates Currency so I through in the English word too - I figured they'd get the drift. Also we'll need to put in the beaker values

[sooooo]

I am finding it weird that if Imperio are planning to attack us, why they are making no effort to scout us yet are letting us scout their territory at will.

[Swiss Pauli]

email sent:

Hi Imperio,

Are you interested in trading Currency to us for Aesthetics and Literature?

We look forward to your reply.

Team RB

[Swiss Pauli]

I am finding it weird that if Imperio are planning to attack us, why they are making no effort to scout us yet are letting us scout their territory at will.

Maybe they think they're being subtle about their planning? But more likely they're simply not that good at civ and are simply reaping the benefits of their over-powered starting position.

[Sullla]

To be honest, this has kind of been my reading of Imperio all along. Building Stonehenge super-early, lucking their way into a late and powerful Oracle (it's disgraceful that Templars didn't build it sooner, given their extreme early investment into religion!), still lacking even a single library anywhere in their territory... Their play hasn't been anything special, IMO. They got a ridiculously strong starting position, and have leveraged that into a leading spot in the game. In contrast, imagine where we would be if WE had gotten their start? I think that we would have made an ironclad agreement with PAL to dominate our respective continents, and would likely be steamrolling our way through pathetically backwards Templars/Imperio empires at the moment.

Unlike Imperio, I think that PAL has played an extremely strong game thus far. They absolutely do deserve credit for their poisition, although having contact with all other civs definitely helped. Their building of Great Lighthouse has been the game's defining move so far.

[Swiss Pauli]

We got a reply from Imperio...

Hi Realms Beyond,

I traslate the propuse to the team. I think is a good trade. I hope
reply in short time.

Greetings.

[mostly-harmless]

Well, at least it is a life sign.
This team is puzzling me.
Since they are reading their eMail again, is it worth to ask for an NAP again?

mh

[Sullla]

Yep, might as well. The longer the better. Best thing possible for us now would be guaranteed peace with both Imperio and Templars for ~50 turns, after which we'll have so many cities and so much production that we'll be in great shape to look at moving towards the offensive. (We will seriously end up with as many cities on this continent as Templars and Imperio combined! I count 14 spots for us, and 7-8 for each of them.)

[Zeviz]

Yes, let's ask them about renewing the NAP.

[regoarrarr]

Agreed

[Zeviz]

Can we remind Imperio of our trade offer, which they supposedly liked? Or just offer it in game?

[T-hawk]

Can't precisely offer it in game since Aesthetics and Literature can't be offered together. We can offer Aesth for Math, but we'll have to make sure they understand that Lit will follow it up.

[Swiss Pauli]

I'll chase up Imperio about the Currency trade, and I'll start a new conversation with them about a NAP. Also, I'm going to bump the thread over at RB to see if anyone else wants to join, esp someone with basic written Spanish.

[Zeviz]

Don't talk about NAP until they agree to Currency trade. Chances are, they don't want to extend NAP, so they might stall all discussion when you bring it up.

[Swiss Pauli]

Don't talk about NAP until they agree to Currency trade. Chances are, they don't want to extend NAP, so they might stall all discussion when you bring it up.

This would be a good point, if it weren't for the fact that all discussion has stopped anyway. It's just us shouting into the abyss that is Imperio :p

[ruff_hi]

email ...


Hi, Team RB.

My team want know when you have ready the literature for trade.

Cheers.

[mostly-harmless]

Doh!
The will have to take Aesthetics first.

Lets wait for the "reload" situation to be resolved before we offering Aesthetics for Currency in game.

mh