Strategy Discussion - Opening Moves

[Swiss Pauli]

What it says.

[Qwack]

Sorry haven't been here recently, will the map become visible on the day the game starts?

[Zeviz]

It sounds like somebody will have to log in, take opening screenshot, and post it here.

This means we'll have about a day for initial strategy discussion before we have to play the first turn.

[sooooo]

Hows about we move the scout onto the hut, repost a screenshot and then probably agree settle on the spot?

[Zeviz]

Sounds good to me.

This raises the question: How long should we wait before making moves that will reveal more information? For example, if that hut gives a map, we might have to think more carefully about where to settle. Although I agree that barring unexpected discoveries, settling on the spot is a good idea.

PS Don't worry, I am not going to rush and make moves until we've agreed on what to do and how long to wait for a consensus. :)

[mostly-harmless]

I agree with moving that scout to the hut.
I dont think there is a better alternative for a first move, so I suggest to go ahead asap and then repost a screenshot and have some more time for discussion.
That bare plains hill in the east looks suspicious metal heavy.

mh

[ruff_hi]

IIRC, you cannot pop a tech from a hut if you don't have a city. This would strongly suggest NOT moving the scout to the hut.

How can I look at the save? Are there addresses (ie IP) I need, passwords, etc or is only 1 of our allowed to actually look at it?

[darrelljs]

ruff_hi is correct, you can't pop a tech without a city. I recall that you can't pop a tech by popping a hut when settling your first city, but I did a civfanatcis forum search and came up empty. I have an alternative proposal for the Scout...move NW/SW. I think settling north is possible because we are basically losing (from what we can see) a Peak, Plains, Plains/Forest, Plains/River, and Grassland. I can really live with that, the only question is whether there are resources on the Grassland and/or Plains/River tile. Moving the Scout as suggested would reveal that. I would not favor moving west, since we lose the only two hill tiles in sight.

Darrell

[Qwack]

Originally posted by darrelljs
ruff_hi is correct, you can't pop a tech without a city. I recall that you can't pop a tech by popping a hut when settling your first city, but I did a civfanatcis forum search and came up empty. I have an alternative proposal for the Scout...move NW/SW. I think settling north is possible because we are basically losing (from what we can see) a Peak, Plains, Plains/Forest, Plains/River, and Grassland. I can really live with that, the only question is whether there are resources on the Grassland and/or Plains/River tile. Moving the Scout as suggested would reveal that. I would not favor moving west, since we lose the only two hill tiles in sight.

Darrell

Thats right, if you pop the hut on the first turn without the city, or pop it by settling the city, the only thing we can get is gold. If we pop is after we settle the city, or move the settler and let the hut pop by expanding city borders, we can get a tech.

[Swiss Pauli]

Doesn't exactly look like the land of milk and honey, does it?

I like darrel's proposal of Scout NW/SW then move the settler 1N if no specials are revealed by the scout.

Moving the scout onto to grass hill would reveal specials that we could grab by settling 1E of the current settler position, but I think darrell's is the better move.

[Sullla]

Sounds good, although all this discussion is moot if a new map ends up being created. (Because of course we couldn't even get through the first turn without someone screwing things up...) The starting position definitely looks a little weak, hopefully there are some resources just out of view in the fog.

Also whoever stuck a goody hut right at the start needs some serious lessons in scenario design. I'm still kicking myself for not editing out the one at the start of Epic 17.

[Zeviz]

What about moving scout onto the nearby hill, and moving the settler there if we like what we see? Our capital would get extra production from plains hill, and settling on that hill would give us a chance to pop tech from the hut (according to discussion in this thread), which is a pretty good chance on Noble. I think settling a turn later is worth a shot at an extra tech and the production benefit of that hill.

Another option would be to move scout NW->SW to see what we are missing, and then move settler onto that hill if we don't mind missing whatever scout reveals.

PS Who is going to do the actual move, and when? (Assuming they don't restart.)

[sooooo]

I really don't like settling on the plains hill. When most of the squares of the BFC like this are fogged then I normally just settle in place because we're bound to have food in there, just hidden. By moving we risk not having any food at all! Plus we lose the fresh water. I can see moving 1N, depending on what the scout sees, but that's about it.

Also, founding a city to get the hut in the second ring in the hope of popping the tech cannot be correct! Let's just put the capital in the right place! I still think the scout would be able to see most of the BFC foggy tiles if we move it onto the hut, so that's where I think the best place to move it is.

[sunrise089]

I agree with sooooo - moving to plains hill is only OK if you are sure you will have a food resource.

[Swiss Pauli]

We need to remember that this is a custom map, and it's not inconceivable that the mapmaker has deleted all resources from the vicinity of the starting positions to even up the game.

@sooooo & zeviz - how are you both fixed to play today?

[Zeviz]

I can play any evening after 10PM Pacific time (it's 11:50pm for me right now if you want to compare this to your time). On the weekends, I might be available during the day, but it's less predictable.

We seem to have 4 options for initial move:

1. Scout NW->SW (reveals a few tiles, but nothing that will not be revealed by just settling in place).

2. Scout to the hut. (reveals a few tiles, but nothing that will not be revealed by just settling in place).

3. Settle in place. Then move scout towards unrevealed lands.

4. Move either Settler or Scout onto plains hill, with intention to settle there if we like it to get a chance for popping tech from a hut.

Did I miss anything?

I vote for option 3, because it will reveal anything that will be revealed by any of the suggested scout moves.

PS Option 5 is to move the Scout south, to see if we want to settle farther in that direction. (Unlikely but possible.)

[darrelljs]

I vote option #1...the bottom of our current BFC looks like utter garbage, let's at least give ourselves a chance to avoid it!

Darrell

[mostly-harmless]

Assuming we will settle in place, there are 7 tiles in the second ring of the BFC that we currently do not see. If neither of them has a food resource we have a slight problem. I am therefore in favor of using the scout first to reveal as much of the potential BFC as possible.
Scouting the hut will reveal 4 such tiles. Any other move will reveal less tiles. If the majority is against popping the hut first I am in favor of using the scout 1W of the current settler position to reveal three tiles and check whether we are not two tiles off the coast.
If the scout does not reveal food, we should reconsider moving the settler for scouting as well.

mh

[darrelljs]

Actually, I don't see much harm in popping the hut...I am okay with that as well. However, I would be against moving the Settler for scouting purposes. If the Scout reveals nothing to the south, settle 1N. If the Scout reveals a resource, settle in place.

Darrell

[sooooo]

That's a good idea, use the scout to reveal the 1 hidden tile that we would miss in a BFC if we settled 1N (so option 1). I'll agree to that. I'd say any of the turnplayers that can get there first can play. I could play tonight (I'm at GMT + 1) but I may or may not have comsumed a few beverages at an unnamed watering hole.

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by sooooo
but I may or may not have comsumed a few beverages at an unnamed watering hole.

:lol:. I play my best pool from 3 beers to 7 beers, so I'd say if you are in that range, go for it.

Darrell

[Swiss Pauli]

OK. I'm most convinced by darrell's idea, and sooooo seems to like it as well, so the move is:

Scout NW/SW then move the settler 1N if no specials are revealed by the scout. If special, then settle in place.

I won't have time myself, but whoever has time, please post a got it in the turn players' thread.

Thanks.

[Zeviz]

Sounds good to me.

[mostly-harmless]

Will we stick to the default city names or has someone a good idea for something smashing like .... uhmmm ...."Pile of old loincloth" that puts fear into the hearts of our enemies.

mh

[sunrise089]

Originally posted by mostly-harmless
Will we stick to the default city names or has someone a good idea for something smashing like .... uhmmm ...."Pile of old loincloth" that puts fear into the hearts of our enemies.

mh

The only thing I can think of that would be clever would be to grab the default name for one of the other civs who have not yet settled. But I see no reason to make an enemy on turn 1, so the Etheopian default seems fine.

@Sooooo - I had no idea you weren't from North America. Are you German?

[Compromise]

We have got to have variant city names! How about rarely used color names, e.g. "Dark Salmon" or "Blanched Almond" or "Burly Wood"? And that's just from a quick look at the named web-safe colors. I'll go get color samples from the local hardware store's paint aisle if anyone wants more.

[sooooo]

We have got to have variant city names! How about rarely used color names, e.g. "Dark Salmon" or "Blanched Almond" or "Burly Wood"? And that's just from a quick look at the named web-safe colors. I'll go get color samples from the local hardware store's paint aisle if anyone wants more.Errr ... OK, knock yourself out!

@Sooooo - I had no idea you weren't from North America. Are you German?Ouch, that hurts! ;) No I'm from Britain.

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
We have a major problem: there's seven civs but only 6 teams, so it looks like the mapmaker forgot to remove the last slot when setting up the game (now AI Hammurabi).

I see this as a game-breaking mistake. The extra civ inevitably changes the starting positions. We could WB Hammy out of the game, but it doesn't feel right to me. :(

[Swiss Pauli]

Hammy has already been deleted, so on we go...

[sunrise089]

Ouch, that hurts! ;) No I'm from Britain.

Oops - forgot that during half the year (right?) you guys are also one off from GMT.

[Sullla]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
Hammy has already been deleted, so on we go...

I know, but (due to extended use with the Worldbuilder myself) rolling a map with seven civs is fundamentally different than rolling one with six. Number of civs influences the spacing of the start positions, resource allocation, and several other factors. Just deleting an AI civ doesn't fix any of those issues...

For all the months of preparation, this has been a pretty sloppy job of actual game setup. Whatever though. Play the hand you are dealt. :)

[sooooo]

We'll probably be founding our capital tomorrow - any more preferences on it's name?

[ruff_hi]

From the pic - it looks like I was right about those two hills. In a normal SP game, first build would be worker. In this game ... I think we should start warrior, maybe 2. Scout should scout (I hope the Inca are on the other land mass) and tech ... not sure.

[Kodii]

ruff foolishly named our city Malabar Front for the SGOTM, so perhaps we could go with Airstrip One here?

[sunrise089]

Originally posted by Kodii
ruff foolishly named our city Malabar Front for the SGOTM, so perhaps we could go with Airstrip One here?

I like it!

[Zeviz]

I also like the idea of amusing city names.

A note on scouting: try to always end your turn on hilltops, because that reveals more tiles than just moving the scout in a straight line.

For the city build, I agree with Worker first. Nobody will see that our capital has no garrison, and I doubt they'll declare a war just to check the strength of our garrison.

[Swiss Pauli]

Here's the capital; I think moving the Settler was the right call as the extra grass hills are especially welcome.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/5012/turn1db8.jpg


Tech-wise, AH seems to be the logical choice.

Build-wise, it looks to be between Warrior and Worker.

For me, Worker first seems better. The empty city cannot be seen from any of the tiles on the diagonal, so even if we face a scouting warrior it'd be a very risky call to DoW us. The price of someone calling our bluff is, of course, death :lol:

(I'll also try to get round to starting a meta-game strategy thread later today where we can debate our longer term plans, and, importantly, brainstorm about our rivals' likely approaches.)

[sooooo]

In my mind, no team is going to declare on another before they've even built a warrior. Maybe in an online free-for-fall, but not in a demogame. I don't think it's in the nature of the people participating here that that will occur.

Hopefully by moving we haven't missed out on horses! But with creative trait we should pick up 3rd ring hidden resources pretty quickly with our capital and settle the resource with another city.

P.S: Can someone else play the turn.

[Zeviz]

If it's just moving the scout and pressing enter, anybody can do it.

And I agree that it's highly unlikely that in a demogame with over 3 months of setup any team is going to kick out somebody else on turn 10.

[mostly-harmless]

I agree with letting the capital undefended. Even if we are DoWed, we can try to negotiate a peace (like a tech for free in 2000yrs or such things.)
mh

[darrelljs]

I vote Worker + Animal Husbandry. Then head for Bronze Working.

Darrell

[Compromise]

I'm going to cast my vote with Darrell. Nothing like relying on the kindness of strangers.

[sooooo]

OK, we'll be on a worker and animal husbandry for the next fortnight (!) then. I normally scout in a circular path, getting to know the lay of the land near the capital, rather than heading in a straight line away from the capital. Does that sound good or are there more efficient ways to scout?

[sunrise089]

I do the circle thing as well.

[darrelljs]

sooooo,

I think circle is fine, I recommend we do that. In my private games I usually find a coast and try to hug it as terrain allows.

Darrell

[Swiss Pauli]

A circle rounf the capital seems good, then head off to where looks most promising.

Just a quick note to reminder ourselves that we're on one of two old world landmasses, so we're likely to have reasonably, though not overly, close neighbours.

[mostly-harmless]

Circle is what I normally do, with diversions for huts and interesting countryside.

mh

[ruff_hi]

what we really want to do is pop a scout and then send one out and have one doing a close circuit.

[sooooo]

Oh I do like to be beside the seaside
I do like to be beside the sea
I do like to stroll upon the prom prom prom
Where the brass bands play
Tiddely om pom pom

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1263/turn2aj2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[ruff_hi]

Originally posted by sooooo
Oh I do like to be beside the seaside
I do like to be beside the sea
I do like to stroll upon the prom prom prom
Where the brass bands play
Tiddely om pom pomWas this just to prove that you are in-fact British and not German? :D

[mostly-harmless]

Ack! We are last in the ranking! What happened!!! ;-)

That forest 1S of the scout looks like a potential city spot, couple of food resources, flood plains, grassland hill, almost instant trade route with the capital for 1gpt each.

Of course there might be more important second city spots just behind the next corner.

mh

[darrelljs]

Man, we could have settled the Cows and Wine and had both on our trade network :eek:. 1S of the Scout is a fine early site, it can run (at neutral food, once we get the happy cap to 7):

Clams
Cows
Floodplains Cottage
Plains River Cottage
Grassland Hill
Two Scientists

Darrell

[sunrise089]

I agree with the city spot mostly-harmless (not fair to format your name different here than at Civfanatics :))

I also suspected sooooo had ulterior motives - from no Britishness to the most British post ever ;)

[Qwack]

Just a heads up.. since the first few turns are going to be rather uneventful and relatively simple strategy wise, I won't be posting too many suggestions here for those. But I will still be here viewing the forum and posting suggestions on any big things that come up (So basically I'm not gone if I don't post for a few days).

[sooooo]

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/4610/turn4gt8.jpg

Here's the situation, should I head NW onto the hill (my instinctive choice) to check for seafood or turn eastwards to complete the circle quicker?

[sunrise089]

The hill. You can them move NE 2 tiles to explore more land without adding any turns due to tile movement costs.

[ruff_hi]

why not move onto the stone, you only fail to see 1 ocean tile (that you would have to settle on the grasshill to get anyway) and it puts you 1 tile closer to your circuit.

Those tundra tiles (assuming it is tundra as I am sooo use to BM) could be the start of the frozen north implying that we are in the northern hemisphere. I thought it was funny that someone worked out that Northern hemisphere resource icons point South (and visa versa) - didn't that change that in a patch?

[mostly-harmless]

I would drive a tight circle to start going south asap, because that is the likely direction of our neighbours.

mh

[darrelljs]

I tend to think Sulla is right...if we settle a city up here early on it will be for (and on) the Stone. So, ruff_hi's suggestion allows us to find any seafood in that potential BFC, while putting us one tile furter east on the subsequent turn (to mostly-harmless's point). Moving onto the Stone would be my vote.

Darrell

[Zeviz]

I agree with moving onto Stone, and then onto the hill NE->E of it. (It looks like there is a hill there.)

That Stone looks like a pretty bad city site, so I am not sure what wonder would be worth settling a city there.

[Swiss Pauli]

The game's down til Tuesday, and it's still a bit too early for extensive dotmapping, but our immediate lands seems good for half a dozen decent cities:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9516/turn7nw4.jpg

What do we think for city 2? The coastal site for cows, clams, and a floodplain still seems to be the obvious choice to me. I think it will connect with the capital on its border pop, but I'm not 100% on this.

[mostly-harmless]

Yes, it will connect to the capital for +1gpt each. Probably from the border pop of the capital, though.

However, I would like to see the land to our south.
As Sullla said, if there is contested land there we should grab that asap. Since we are not dealing with an AI here, I guess the risk of other teams filling our backyard is small.

mh

[sooooo]

OK boys and girls, the time has come to choose a new technology to research! Our options are:

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/8131/techstm7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Oh, actually I've just thought that it would be nice to know if we have horses before we choose. I'll let you know that next turn.

[mostly-harmless]

Well, our worker can pasture the cows and then mine the unforested plains hill in the SE. That takes what? 8-9 turns altogether?
So by then we should make sure we have another worker tech available. If the horses are in the BFC that buys us another few turns. But we might want to know The Wheel for connecting them up, if they are not on the river.
Chariots for quick and secure scouting?
Hmmm....
BW straight away, to chop the settler?
Going for Writing straight away, for an early Lib and the chance for the GLib?
Archery to be on the safe side and have something meaningful to build in the capital while growing?

HMMM.....

At the moment I tend towards Archery and then depending on the availability of horses, either The Wheel or BW. But I am happy to be convinced by better arguments.

mh

[darrelljs]

At Prince, I would go Bronze Working next whether we have Horse or not.

Darrell

[sunrise089]

Originally posted by darrelljs
At Prince, I would go Bronze Working next whether we have Horse or not.

Darrell

[Sullla]

Bronze Working is the incredibly cliched move in this situation.

I also think it's the best option. ;)

[Zeviz]

If we have horses that require a road, I'd vote for The Wheel. (Chariots make exellent scouts and barbarian defense, and should look intimidating to opponents.)

Otherwise, BW.

PS Next build at the capital should obviously be a Warrior.

[mostly-harmless]

Turn 26 will be a nice one, as we finally get BW, we pop our third ring and get closer to yellow civ.

What are the plans for research?
Agriculture->Pottery for cottages?
Beelining Writing to get a library up and running and get Mathematics asap, to make use of the abundant forests?

Or should we mess around in the religious branch of the tree. Is the Stele (our UB) worth building?

mh

[sunrise089]

I'm tempted to say we wait to see if we have copper accessible, and if not head to Iron Working.

[sooooo]

OK guys, what's our general plan? Where are we going to settle, how many warriors should we build before the settler, where should we sent our warriors?

[Sullla]

I will continue to make the case for the southern spot, as seen in this picture:

http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Civ4/ADG-3.jpg

Yes, using a Sirian-esque Pink Dot for good luck. ;) It's the best location I see anywhere within reasonable distance. Two food resources, lots of hills for production, on a plains hill for defense, and mostly seals off the southern area for our later settlement. (I sketched in the level 3 borders in yellow to demonstrate.) The white dots are some doodles that could possibly become cities much later on, if the Templars decide not to contest our control of this region. It's a bold move, but where else are we going to go? Much of our surroundings are desert and plains tiles. If we just retreat back into our starting penninsula, we're giving up on the game before it even begins.

I would move our two current warriors down into this southern region, and use the one in production, our third, to guard the capital. We can discuss what to build in the second city when/if we found it, but should we get the pink spot, I would consider opening with worker -> barracks -> military pump, focusing on commerce at the capital and shields at the second city. That usually seems to be a good combo in Civ4...

Obviously open for team discussion on this. :)

[Zeviz]

I agree with this plan. My only suggestion is to send the warriors to the city site as late as possible, to avoid giving away our intentions until the facts are on the ground.

[mostly-harmless]

I agree with pink dot.
The two warriors should guard fog busting waypoints for the settler to reach the site undisturbed. It will take the settler 6 turns to found the city.
Question: Is it really advisable to stun city growth at pink dot with going worker first there?
Would it not be more efficient to build/chop a second worker at the capital?

mh