F1 2007

[BlackCat]

Well, 6 days, 6 hours, 6 minutes and a couple of seconds to this seasons Formula 1 start.

I think it will be quite interesting this year. No schumi, Alonso driving the jinxed Maclaren, Kimi driving a pretty stable Ferrari (that is if the troll is left behind), Renault with no drivers (yeah Fisi, but ... and who the heck is Kovalainen ?). Kubica in BMW - he was actually pretty good.

The single tyre supplier should make things more even - at least reduce it to car quality.

The safety car change is also pretty interesting :


Safety car
In 2007, safety car regulations have been modified to prevent drivers diving for the pits the minute the safety car comes onto the circuit, and to stop backmarkers interfering with the leaders during a race restart. No car is allowed to enter the pits until the field is bunched up behind the safety car and before the safety car returns to the pit any lapped car running between cars on the lead lap must overtake those cars and the safety car before taking up their correct position at the back.


Should give more driving instead of tactical results.

[LordShiva]

It's going to be weird rooting for Kimi.

But Ferrari FTW!

[Cort Haus]

Go Lewis!

LS - I see you are sticking to your Italian loyalties. What's wrong with Karthikeyan's team, Williams, btw? Except for the fact that they're a low-budget independent bunch of has-beens running a Toyota engine. :shrug:

Kovalainen, BC? He was decent in GP2, and he beat Michael Schumacher in the Race of Champions a few years back. Touted as the next big Finn (after Kimi).

Honda's "Green" livery is a joke. They have no sponsor so they decide to jump on the green bandwagon and pretend that F1 isn't the most environmentally unfriendly sport ever. "Raising Awareness" pffft - eat my diffuser. :rolleyes: They were shít in testing, too.

[LordShiva]

I've been a Ferrari guy since I was 4. If Karthikeyan ever has a shot to not be totally crap, I'll switch loyalties.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Cort Haus

Kovalainen, BC? He was decent in GP2, and he beat Michael Schumacher in the Race of Champions a few years back. Touted as the next big Finn (after Kimi).


Ok, then it will be interesting to see what he can do with a renault :)

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by LordShiva
I've been a Ferrari guy since I was 4. If Karthikeyan ever has a shot to not be totally crap, I'll switch loyalties.

:b: I've had this down as Kimi's year since the deal was closed. Massa's been good in testing, though - and could cause Kimi problems.

[Locutus]

This year an all-Dutch team to root for! :b:

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules/ew_filemanager/07images/f1/spyker/launch/f8-front-side.jpg

[Ninot]

Go Villeneuve!

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Locutus
This year an all-Dutch team to root for! :b:


I wonder if Jos will make a come-back, after his bust-up with A1GP Team Netherlands.

[Locutus]

Considering he's been crapping all over Spyker in the media in the last months I seriously doubt they'd let him...

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Locutus
Considering he's been crapping all over Spyker in the media in the last months I seriously doubt they'd let him...

I didn't realise that. He can't be very popular now after acting like a brattish prima-donna in A1GP, and now this.

[LordShiva]

[BlackCat]

Seems like Ferrari is in good shape and Massa better than Kimi.

[Colon™]

I want to make love with that car.

[LordShiva]

Kimi :b:

DC flying over Wurz's car :b:

[BlackCat]

:hmmm: Strange, it seems that it's more fun to see F1 on my new 32" than it was on my old 23". Well, I assume I'll learn to live with it.

The race, well, anyone want to make a bet that Kimi won't win this year ?

Hamilton, well :b: :b: :b: way to enter F1 :D and it seems like maclaren has got rid of their exploding cars.

Top stunt was Coulthardt's attempt to fly :D

Besides that, it was kind of boring.

[Cort Haus]

I thought DC was an idiot for trying that move that nearly took Wurz's head off. A rookie mistake from a guy in his last season. :rolleyes:

Easy-peasy for Kimi, and it was only McLaren's fuel strategy for Alonso plus some timely back-markers that spared him the embarrasment of being beaten by Hamilton. It's good to see the McLarens not exploding, though. :b:

[BlackCat]

:eek:

Try look at pic three row 2 - that is CLOSE !

http://www.formula1.com/race/gallery/770.html

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Try look at pic three row 2 - that is CLOSE !

Ouch. That moment gets worse every time I see it.

[LordShiva]

Me too. He could've killed him :eek:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YeOOmTlYdvc"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/YeOOmTlYdvc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[BlackCat]

Well, Alonso in a Massa-Kimi sandwich - yay. Guess there will be an interesting start tomorrow. :D

[LordShiva]

Technically, isn't it an Alonso sandwich?

[Thorgal]

Well, Alonso ate that sadwich for lunch. There were even some bits left for Hamilton. :lol:

[BlackCat]

Just out of curiosity - how the heck has Massa managed to proceed to F1 ? Going for the high speed track in the dog fight of the start is plain silly. :shame:

Anyway, good work done by Alonso and Hamilton (the latter is a new Trulli but he does it at high speed :D )

[MOBIUS]

Ah yes, one of the more pointless 'sports' in the World...;)

[Cort Haus]

BlackCat, by accusing Hamilton of being a new Trulli I presume you were referring to the fact that he was not overtaken by the Red Darts. Harsh.

In fact, the rookie did a superb job of keeping two quicker cars behind him, and shaking one of them off into the gravel. The way he overtook the two of them at the start, adding to his superb opening in Melbourne, shows what a great driver he is. In last years GP2 series he delivered some of the most exciting and dramatic drives ever seen in a motor race anywhere.

Lewis :unworthy:

[BlackCat]

CH, more like, I think that Trulli is a good defensive driver but he can't drive fast at the same time wich Hamilton can.

[Cort Haus]

Friday afternoon practice times from Sakhir

1. RAIKKONEN Ferrari 1m33.527s
2. HAMILTON McLaren 1m33.540s
3. KUBICA BMW 1m33.732s
4. MASSA Ferrari 1m33.772s
5. ALONSO McLaren 1m33.784s
6. WURZ Williams 1m33.973s
7. HEIDFELD BMW 1m34.076s
8. ROSBERG Williams 1m34.189s
9. COULTHARD Red Bull 1m34.359s
10. TRULLI Toyota 1m34.366s
11. BARRICHELLO Honda 1m34.391s
12. KOVALAINEN Renault 1m34.585s
13. DAVIDSON Super Aguri 1m34.595s
14. WEBBER Red Bull 1m34.677s
15. FISICHELLA Renault 1m34.796s
16. SATO Super Aguri 1m35.001s
17. LIUZZI Toro Rosso 1m35.268s
18. SCHUMACHER Toyota 1m35.427s
19. SUTIL Spyker 1m35.582s
20. SPEED Toro Rosso 1m35.687s
21. ALBERS Spyker 1m35.835s
22. BUTTON Honda 1m36.079s

[LordShiva]

Massa! :dance:

[Cort Haus]

3 drivers sharing the lead of the table after 3 races :b:

[BlackCat]

Yep, quite a good race by the first five. Good to see that BMW can play with the big ones too - nice takeover by Heidfeld.

IMHO the best was though Couldhart - going from 21 to 7 in a Red Bull isn't to expect - just sad it couldn't hold.

[Cort Haus]

Yep. Good drives from Heidfeld and DC. Funny to see Renault struggling though - and great to see that odious toad Briatore suffering.

[BlackCat]

Deja vu in spain. Though, wonder what kind of doping Coulthart is on :hmmm:

[LordShiva]

Massa :dance:

(despite a pit-stop fire)

[Cort Haus]

Hamilton is teh DWC leader though :b:

I took great pleasure in seeing Alonso beaten at home by both Massa and Hamilton. His sour, sulky face at the end was priceless. ITV ran a piece on Alsono, with endless Spanish fans w@nking off over him and all saying he's the best in the world. Except that maybe he's not even the best driver in McLaren.

Spain wasn't remotely interested in open wheel single seaters before Alonso's success, and now they get 2 Grand Prix. Except ... "hey Berni, quick, cancel Valencia, the Spanish aren't winning anymore!".

Apologies to any genuine (non glory-hunting) Spanish race fans, but as other clubs like to taunt the Chelsea fans these days ... "Where were you when you were shít?".

[Thorgal]

Wow, and this? you maybe have some inferiority complex havent you? :lol: Obviously the purest envy also becuase Spain is getting two GPS while Silverstone is near to the abysm. And then if al that is not enough, heavy sour grapes too, since I bet you were UNTIL this year a Kimi fanatic... What a pity, I am really sorry for you. :(

Well all that frustation is comprehensible, a country so interested and involved in F1 and with soooo few good drivers in last 20-30 years, you must be REALLY needed. But that must not be an excuse. A bit of soberness please, it results embarrasing.

In any case you should give all thanks to Massa for your poor happiness. Hamilton did what he was supossed to do, and the only one passed today by him was Raikkonen IIRC. Also, while i find Lewis amazing, the British fans and press in general are going too crazy (even for UK standards). Maybe they should calm down and leave Lewis some room or you and your nervousness could end putting too much pressure on the guy too soon and at the end of the year your sour grapes would be even sourer... again. :cute:

[Thorgal]

I wonder, should i write now a super-pathetic little post as the one from our bitter English friend here? Or should we better speak about the race? :cute:

Well, lets go with the race better: :D

A flawless Alonso makes a hat trick and schooled Hamilton in all aspects with a perfect driving. Not much to add here. He was the Fastest and above all the most consistent driver there, flew away from Hamy when he wanted and when it was needed, in total control of the situation. Nothing unexpected however.

Hamilton very fast and very lucky too, driving beyond his limits trying to catch FA, with lots of barrier touching and errors which normally should have cost him the race, only the fact he was able to finish it speaks lots about his amazing hands. :eek: I think Ron should calm down this guy. Maybe he is supporting too much pressure?

I would say that Massa did the best he and his car could. I am sorry about Raikkonen but it seems he is not at the required level to drive a Ferrari right now.

Very good job of Fisi in contrast with Kovalainen (again)

McLaren several steps ahead of the rest Lapping everybody else, but i think Ferrari is much better than they showed today, and we will see it in the next couple of races.

[BlackCat]

Monaco GP can be heaven and it can be hell, as in super entertaining and super boring. While this one wasn't exactly hell, purgatory might describe it. :bored:

[BlackCat]

:eek: Kubica have just had a serious crash. First a fly, then head on into a concrete barrier, then spinning in the air across the lane to hit the barrier on the other side.

No news about his condition yet.

[BlackCat]

:relief: Nothing broken and consious.

[Saras]

First stable, then conscious, now "fine"

Lap 43: Kubica's manager says he has spoken to the BMW Sauber driver and he appears to be fine - a huge relief after such a massive accident. The Pole has been taken to Montreal general hospital for further check-ups.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6738963.stm

[BlackCat]

Just heard that he has broken a leg - cheap considering.

[BlackCat]

Typical canuck - totally crazy :D

4 SC's.
Kubicas flight.
Liuzzi three times in the barrier before he manages to crash the car.
Two black flags for not stopping for red light in pit.
Trulli smashing his car under SC :dizzy:
Sato passing Alonso in the last laps
Wurtz from 16 to 3 on a 1 pit.

Great race :D:D:D

Oh, and well done by Hamilton.

[Thorgal]

Wow, craziest race ever :eek:

HL: Simply perfect.
Wurz and Heidfeld: Perfect also.
Alonso: Boooo, errors, bad luck and tyre problems.
Raikkonen: Mediocre.
Sato: :lol:

Main protagonist: Safety cars of course. Massa, Rosberg, Fisi and Alonso must be very angry with new stupid rules.

BTW it seems Kubica has a broken leg. Glad of seeing him alive at least.

[Ninot]

I was at the race today. Amazing good time.

I was at the turn that Kubica had his accident at too. Never seen anything like it in my life.

Wow, those cars really go fast don't they?

[BlackCat]

WTF ??? :lol:


Anthony Davidson, Super Aguri (11th):
“It is such a shame about the beaver. It had it in for me for sure! I was running in third place at the time, behind the safety car. I was on a clear, one stop strategy and it damaged the front wing. I couldn’t even see it at high speed and I could not understand why suddenly I locked up the front tyres and so I had to come in to the pitlane.


http://www.formula1.com/race/news/6260/775.html

[Ninot]

I work on that island (www.festin.com). We have alot of groundhogs there. They look alot like beavers.

[Thorgal]

Well Kubica has not any broken leg, but only a sprained ankle and light concussion. He will be released from hospital today. :b:

F1 technology has become really amazing. A long way since Le Mans disaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955_Le_Mans_disaster) where 83 died.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Ninot
I work on that island (www.festin.com). We have alot of groundhogs there. They look alot like beavers.

Well, wether it was a beaver or a groundhog, it explains his last second descision to enter the pit and start honking for service :D

Taken by surprise the pit crew acted pretty well (my local tv commentators called it gross incompetence handling a scheduled pitstop :rolleyes: ).

[BlackCat]

:hmmm: Can't decide wether it was boring or not. Though a little plus with the team fights :D

Somehow I'm glad that I don't understand finnish - Kimi must have said some very bad things when he was stuck behind Kovalainen - considering how close he was to Massa the last rounds, it probably cost him the third place.

[Thorgal]

Boring? it was a good race. :b: It is not motogp but F1.

BTW LH has definitely proved he is one of greatest in this race supporting Alonso´s pressure. Alonso was grood too, but not enough. Qualify has always been his weak point, and it is becoming expensive for him.

[LordShiva]

Ferrari's new aerodynamic update :b: :dance:

[LordShiva]

Kimi :dance:

Massa :(

[Cort Haus]

I had assumed before the season started that the title was Kimi's to lose, and then the Maccas had their peak, with Kimi struggling, and it looked like a Fernando-Lewis showdown.

Now Kimi could be favourite again.

[Colon™]

This season is turning out quite interesting, with 3 drivers having 2 victories and 1 driver having 3 victories.

[LordShiva]

:eek: (http://eurosport.yahoo.com/13072007/58/season-2007-mclaren-charged-fia-spy-scandal.html)

click the smiley

[BlackCat]

Yeah, that is an :eek: - though, they apparently didn't learn how to make fast cars ;)

[LordShiva]

:hmmm: McLaren's are faster than Ferraris in teh rain :(

[Cort Haus]

What I find funny about Ferrarigate is that the main thing that McLaren are alleged to have gained, is knowledge of an illegal feature on the Ferrari floor which they complained about and the FIA banned.

The implication being that without this knowledge Ferrari would have gotten away with breaking the rules ...

[Colon™]

I haven't even watched a single race but this season is awesome. McClaren vs Ferrari. Hamilton vs Alonso vs Massa vs Raikonen. And a few Kubicas thrown in as dessert. How many more races until fists fly? I just hope McClaren won't have to dock point because that'd spoil the fight sport-wise.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Colon™
I just hope McClaren won't have to dock point because that'd spoil the fight sport-wise.

I, too, hope this, but I doubt that McLaren being docked a point would change the title race very much.

[LordShiva]

:lol: @ Alonso holding up Hamilton in teh pit lane

[Colon™]

:lol: @ Alonso getting punished for impeding his own team-mate.

[LordShiva]

:lol: @ McLaren not being allowed to score constructors' points

[Thorgal]

:lol: @ F1

[LordShiva]

:lol: @ Alonso for behaving like a whiney child (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6932653.stm)

[BlackCat]

:zzz: except for the first corner and Hamiltons exploding tyre.

[LordShiva]

Massa's pwnership :b:

[Cort Haus]

So, is Hamilton only doing well because Alonso-the-genius-who-is-solely-responsible-for-0.6s-per-lap-on-the-Macca is delivering the setups, or it it for some other reason?

Is Hamilton being 'favoured' by McLaren as Alonso claims, or does equal treatment, as Ron claims is the case, simply not enough for Alonso who feels he should be the No1? He is a double WDC after all.

What I think is that a genuine No 1 should be able to both pick the best setup and drive fastest in it. After all, in some formats of racing, and even in some F1 teams I expect, the setup is derived by the team based on the driver feedback.

Hamilton is in his first year in F1. Alonso has had several years. Of course he wil be more experienced at developing setups.

I believe that the team is giving them equal status. Some Spanish fans might fear that a British team will naturally favour a British driver. However, anyone claiming this will be ignorant of the Hakkinen/Coulthard era where Ron's personal closeness to Mikka left DC a definite No 2, despite being British.

[LordShiva]

Massa :(

[Cort Haus]

Raikonnen getting done by Hamilton. :lol:

Congrats to Dario Franchitti for winning the Indy Racing League 2007 tonight, narrowly beating Kiwi Scott Dixon to the title when the Ganassi driver ran out of fuel on the final lap as the two series leaders were dicing it wheel-to-wheel on the way to the flag.

The Scot-with-the-Italian-name also won the prestigious Indy 500 race this year, equaling the achievement of fellow Brit, the Englishman Dan Wheldon, who bagged the same double in 2005.

[Cort Haus]

So, Maccas get find $100,000,000 and nil pwoin for this year - drivers still get to score points. You could probably kill several of your employees through negligence and get less than that.

What is Max going to spend the money on , that's what I'd like to know?

Personally, I believe this is about Moseley attacking Ron Dennis and punishing him for leading the manufacturers against the FIA the other year. McLaren will suffer heavily from this, and will have little chance of being competetive next year.

So far, no evidence has been made public that confirms that McLaren got an advantage from the data passed to Coughlin by Stepney.

FIA = Ferrari International Assistance

[Colon™]

Cort Haus when Milosevic chases one million Kosovars out of Kosovo: treated unfairly!!

Cort Haus when McLaren spies on Ferrari and gets away without a suspension: treated unfairly!!!!

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Colon™
Cort Haus when Milosevic chases one million Kosovars out of Kosovo: treated unfairly!!

Cort Haus when McLaren spies on Ferrari and gets away without a suspension: treated unfairly!!!!

:lol: :( :lol:

[Thorgal]

Ugh... i am really done with little fanboys... :rolleyes:

Considering how BAR was excluded from several races few years ago becuse some insignificant problems with fuel tank or Tyrrell being totally disqualified (team+drivers) in 1984 becuase weight issues, FIA has been veeeery indulgent with Macca industrial espionage. OTOH while it is not very fair for Ferrari drives, it is a good thing for aficionados since it seems there will be an entertaining end of season instead of a Ferrari parade.

[Zoid]

I think it's pretty clear that FIA is out to get McLaren and Ron Dennis. It hasn't been proved that there even was any spying done. All that's been revealed is that de la Rosa and Alonso exchanged e-mail containing the information leaked by Stepney and Coughlan. There is no evidence that this information has been used at McLaren or even that McLaren is the instigator here. Both Stepney and Coughlan were applying for jobs at other teams before this scandal erupted. So it's entirely possible that they were going to use that information as a means to get employed elsewhere...

And FIA has been extremely erratic in it's decisions before. There is the famous case in 1994 - under Max Mosley's watch at the FIA - when Benetton walked scot-free from the World Council, despite admitting that it cheated by tampering with refuelling equipment. The FIA justified letting Benetton off the hook by saying that the filter had been removed by " a junior member" of the team. As part a cobbled together solution to avoid ruining the World Championship at the time Benetton boss Flavio Briatore agreed to make "substantial management changes" to ensure that there was no repeat of the incident.

A year later the Toyota rally team tried to use the Benetton defence against running illegal turbo restrictors - but this time the FIA World Council threw out the argument - and banned Toyota from the World Championship for the next 12 months.

"Toyota said the decision had been made at a certain level of the team and that the management had not known about it," Max Mosley said, "but the team has to take responsibility."

Roll on to 2003 and Toyota was again in trouble but the FIA did not care to involve itself in an espionage case brought by Ferrari against two former employees Mauro Iacconi and Angelo Santini who were later found guilty of industrial espionage in an Italian court. Santini was condemned to nine months in prison by the Tribunale di Modena, while Iacconi was given a 16 month sentence. Both prison terms were suspended. The FIA says that it did not get involved because it was not asked to get involved, but this ignores the fact that Toyota had already run into trouble with the federation and ought perhaps to have been punished for a repeat offence, something which the civil court did not take into consideration at all. Toyota has yet to receive any punishment for that.

And Thorgal... I find it amusing that a Ferrari supporter get on a high horse and accuse others of being fanboys. Ferrari is THE fanboy team in F1. Protected by fanatic supporters, FIA and the whole goddamn italian press... It's even more funny considering Ferrari doesn't care about the sport, only about winning. As seen at Indianapolis in 2005 and now, just to mention two incidents.

All in all this is a very sad ending to a season that has been the best in many years, possibly going back so far as the great battle between then McLaren drivers Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost in 1989-1990 (even if the Alonso - Hamilton battle isn't nearly as dirty and unsportsmanlike).

[Thorgal]

And Thorgal... I find it amusing that a Ferrari supporter get on a high horse and accuse others of being fanboys.
Me a Ferrari supporter? You have really missed the shot here. It is one of my least favorite teams. I even prefer McLaren. :lol:

But here is the thing. For any McLaren fan any non unconditional pro-McLaren POV is necesarily a pro-Ferrari point of view and viceversa. Black or white (or red in this case), isnt it? This is precisely the fanboyism i was speaking about. :zzz:

BTW about you first paragraph, how do know what has been proved and what not, or what do you know about emails and such if the FIA is not going to give any info about the topic until next week?

[Zoid]

Sorry, Thorgal. I must have confused you with LordShiva... ;)

Regarding the e-mails, it's already been acknowledged by FIA that this is the case. This is the sole reason this sordid affair was re-opened in the first place...

[LordShiva]

McLaren exposed by spy evidence

McLaren received a systematic flow of information from a spy within rivals Ferrari for nearly three months this year, the FIA has revealed.

Drivers Fernando Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa were aware of the information.

It was the possession of this "highly sensitive" data that led the FIA to fine McLaren £49.2m and deduct their constructors' championship points.

The information came to McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan from Ferrari chief mechanic Nigel Stepney.

The data McLaren received over the three-month period concerned the Ferrari car's brakes, weight distribution, aerodynamic balance and tyre inflation.

In a 16-page document, the FIA said e-mails showed that test driver De la Rosa and reigning world champion Alonso had been aware of the Ferrari data.

All the information from Ferrari is very reliable
Pedro de la Rosa in an e-mail to Fernando Alonso on 25 March

"The emails show unequivocally that both Mr Alonso and Mr de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via Mike Coughlan.

"Both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by Coughlan from Nigel Stepney," the report states.

In what is being viewed as the most damning section of the report, the FIA has published an e-mail exchange between De la Rosa and Alonso.

"All the information from Ferrari is very reliable," De la Rosa wrote to Alonso on 25 March in an exchange about the Ferrari's weight distribution.

"It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic - I don't know what post he holds now.

"He's the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi (Raikkonen) was stopping in lap 18. He's very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer and he told him that."

These are the main points raised in the statement on the FIA website:

Coughlan had more information than previously appreciated
Information included sensitive technical information and sporting strategy
De la Rosa requested and received secret Ferrari data
The information was shared with Alonso
Intention by McLaren personnel to use data in their own testing

McLaren has refused to comment on the FIA's revelations, published on the eve of the Belgian Grand Prix in Spa.

The extent of the information Coughlan received about the Ferrari goes far beyond what was revealed at a first meeting of the FIA's world motorsport council in July.

At that time, the FIA decided not to punish McLaren because there was no proof the information had been used "in such a way as to interfere with the running of the FIA F1 world championship".

But the new evidence persuaded the world council to change its verdict at Thursday's meeting.

De la Rosa revealed plans to test Ferrari's weight distribution in McLaren's simulator, plans that were later abandoned.

It was revealed that Alonso agreed it was "very important" that McLaren tried out the gas Ferrari were using to inflate their car's tyres.

It also emerged that De la Rosa had asked Coughlan for specific details of Ferrari's braking system, and that the designer revealed to the test driver "we are looking at something similar".

The document appears to explode the view that this was only a case of two rogue employees using the information to find better jobs at other teams, and that the confidential information had not been circulated within McLaren, as the team contended at the first world council meeting.

The world council said it had decided to inflict such a heavy punishment on McLaren because "there was an intention on the part of a number of McLaren personnel to use some of the Ferrari confidential information in its own testing".

It added: "The evidence leads the WMSC to conclude that some degree of sporting advantage was obtained, though it may forever be impossible to quantify that advantage in concrete terms."

Alonso and team-mate Lewis Hamilton were not punished in the drivers' championship because "primary responsibility lies with McLaren, and also because McLaren's drivers were offered individual sanction" for telling the world council what they knew.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995240.stm

McLaren :q::q::q::q:

[Zoid]

No one disputes that McLaren was in posession of secret Ferrari data. The question is if they used this and thereby benefited from it. That has yet to be proved. The WMSC based their verdict on circumstancial evidence such as "we think they were going to use it"

WMSC :q::q::q::q:

[LordShiva]

You think it's OK that they sought competitor information and clearly intended to use it?

[Zoid]

Who says McLaren sought the information? Coughlan and Stepney are friends, but there's no evidence that Coughlan delibrately sought this infomation from Stepney on behalf of McLaren. Why Stepney gave Coughlan the information hasn't been revealed AFAIK.

[LordShiva]

They knew they were getting this information from someone in Ferrari (obviously, unauthorised), and didn't say anything about it :q:

It also emerged that De la Rosa had asked Coughlan for specific details of Ferrari's braking system, and that the designer revealed to the test driver "we are looking at something similar"

[Zoid]

Yeah, well... De la Rosa has clearly overstepped the line here, and if I were Ron Dennis I'd kick his sorry ass out of F1.

But the bottom line in this case is: did McLaren deliberately seek this information from Ferrari (ie spying on a fellow team) and did they use any of it to their benefit? Since there's no evidence of either the punishment is absurdly harsh. I'm not saying they should walk away unpunished from this, but the punishment is in no way corresponding to the crime...

[LordShiva]

I highly doubt that De la Rosa was acting on his own accord as a "rogue test driver."

[Zoid]

Well, we may never know...

[LordShiva]

Can Raikkonen pull it off? :expect:

[Zoid]

It's possible. He's looking rock solid at the moment. As long as his Ferrari holds out and nothing else goes wrong he might snatch the Championship from Hamilton...

But I wouldn't count Alonso out just yet. The man has a eerie ability to kick it up a notch when it's needed. I'd really want this to be a fight to the end, neck and neck across the finish line at Interlagos!
:dance:

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Colon™
Cort Haus when Milosevic chases one million Kosovars out of Kosovo: treated unfairly!!


You really are a tedious and repetively off-topic mofo. You are also astoundingly ****ing ignorant of the facts.

You lying ****.

[Cort Haus]

FWIW, I'm not a fan of McLaren or any particular team. I am certainly not a fan of Max Moseley, though I do have a lot of respect for Ron Dennis, who has done much more for the sport than the power-crazed lawyer.

If McLaren are guilty, why are their drivers allowed to race? Is it only the British press that are reporting that Alonso said to Dennis "Make me No 1 or I will disclose emails that indicated that I knew something"?

[Colon™]

The drivers are still allowed to race and still have all of their points because doing such would kill off the most exciting season in ages. I don't think the FIA's concession should be taken as a sign of doubt about McLaren's guilt.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
FWIW, I'm not a fan of McLaren or any particular team. I am certainly not a fan of Max Moseley, though I do have a lot of respect for Ron Dennis, who has done much more for the sport than the power-crazed lawyer.

Indeed, Mosley is just a piece of **** with no interest in the sport... :mad:

If McLaren are guilty, why are their drivers allowed to race?

a) because all drivers were promised immunity when this came to FIA's attention the first time

and

b) because robbing Hamilton and Alonso of their points would effectively destroy what has so far been the best F1 season in many years and it would not be in the best interest of the sport.

Of course Max Mosely and his lawyer zombies in the WMSC argued for total removal of all points for McLaren. Teams and drivers.

Is it only the British press that are reporting that Alonso said to Dennis "Make me No 1 or I will disclose emails that indicated that I knew something"?

There's nothing about it in swedish press AFAIK. Not that there's much F1 coverage to begin with... ;)

Alonso is being a bit of a ***** here. He's 'good guy' image has been shot to hell this season with all the stunts he pulled in the pit and on the track. I'm a bit disappointed really... He might even have talked himself out of a race seat for 2008... :rolleyes:

[LordShiva]

Dennis and Alonso are fighting :lol: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7003042.stm)

[Zoid]

Not so much fighting as Alonso being an absolute bastard IMO. Damn, Alonso's been my favourite driver since day 1... Now I lost my respect for him... :( Let's hope Hamilton doesn't get this arrogant if he wins this year...

[Thorgal]

He might even have talked himself out of a race seat for 2008...
Naaah. Any team wanting to win something would kill for having Alonso, or would kill for not having him in the enemy team...

In order to be a multiple WDC in something as complex as F1 you need to be a little bastard, specially if things are not all in your side. So nothng to be so amazed of here. Or do you think Prost, Senna or MS were Snow White?

[Cort Haus]

Hakkinen?

[Thorgal]

Hakkinen was a nice guy, but dont think he was the same sort of champ as the others were.

On a side note, it seems that Ferrari has already hired Alonso. No for sure yet AFAIK, but everybody is speaking about it and there's no smoke without fire, and there is a lot of somke indeed. (many people who is going to suffer a collapse :lol: )

[Cort Haus]

SEPTEMBER 25, 2007
Holding down the lid of Pandora's Box?

As the Formula 1 circus heads out to Japan there are many whispered stories doing the rounds about espionage scandals which may or may not come to light. With the FIA having punished McLaren so harshly, despite having almost no concrete evidence that the information was used, the federation may now find that it has opened a Pandora's Box of similar cases in the F1 world.

"It was common practice in Formula 1," McLaren test driver Pedro de la Rosa told the World Council during the recent hearing. "If that is wrong, then we are all wrong. I have been listening with all of our fellow drivers. I can give you lots of examples, if you want. I don’t know what all of this is about. This is common practice. We talk about car set-ups, rivals, etc., all day long. It is our passion. It is as simple as that."

McLaren boss Ron Dennis has also hinted at the problem by telling members of the F1 media that "you would be amazed what you would find if you looked in the computers of all the drivers".

More specifically, however, there have been allegations in recent days that Renault engineer Phil Mackereth took three disks of McLaren information with him when he joined Renault. We have also heard rumours that McLaren information may have also turned up at another team which recruited people from McLaren. For the moment everyone is remaining very quiet and playing down the possibilities.

"What happened is what happens probably all the time," Renault team boss Flavio Briatore told a German magazine, oddly echoing the remarks of de la Rosa and Dennis. "It cannot be controlled. I don't want to say anything, because it is now something for the FIA to judge."

Briatore added that the team has given all the available information about the case to the FIA and to McLaren.

The ball is thus in the FIA's court.

McLaren does have other options available. It could go to a civil court as Ferrari did in 2003 when it wanted to challenge Toyota. There may be arguments that all this is bad for the sport but there is no reason why McLaren should take the blame if other teams have been doing the same thing.

McLaren may however feel that it is best to bury the issue as there is a Sword of Damocles hanging over the team at the moment as the FIA will be inspecting the 2008 McLaren to make sure that there is no Ferrari input in the car. Max Mosley says that if the FIA finds any evidence of that McLaren could be banned next year. Proving such things would be difficult but given the small amount of evidence used to convict McLaren at the recent World Council anything is possible. This is acceptable if there are similar zero tolerance attitude for similar offenders but very worrying if there is any suspicion that the FIA is not acting in an even-handed manner. This would serve only to undermine the authority and credibility of the governing body.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19677.html

[LordShiva]

What a joke of a race so far :angry:

[Tuberski]

You are supposed to be incommunicado!

I'M GONNA TELL!!!!!!!!! :cute:

:p ACK!

[Zoid]

Originally posted by LordShiva
What a joke of a race so far :angry:

I missed the race :( I read it was quite action packed... But 19 laps behind the safety car?? WTF??

[Cort Haus]

:dance:

[Zoid]

:hmmm:

Todt says no chance for Alonso

Jean Todt will have set himself for a fall if Fernando Alonso ends up at Ferrari in 2008. Todt says that there is zero chance of the Spaniard moving to Ferrari next year. This contradicts reliable sources that are saying that talks are taking place to get Alonso into the team alongside Kimi Raikkonen. Todt says that he is going to have the same two drivers next year but this does not really explain why Felipe Massa has been talking to other teams in recent weeks. Todt says that Raikkonen and Massa are under contract and said that he would "respect a contract for a guy cleaning the floor, so you can imagine that I will respect a contract with them". This may be so, but if Todt is no longer running the team next year that theory may not remain a reality. There have been rumours for some time that Todt is being moved out of the racing division to make way for Ross Brawn.

[Thorgal]

Dont know about 2008 but it seems a sure thing for 2009 (some Spanish TV comentator who knows Alonso very well says so at least).

[Zoid]

Yeah, considering the non-existent relationship between Alonso and Ron Dennis I'm sure Alonso won't stay in McLaren one minute longer than necessary...

[Cort Haus]

If Fernandinho did stay, and Lewis won the title, where would this leave the eyebrowed-one's belief that the current WDC should have No 1 spot within the team?

[Zoid]

If Hamilton wins the title, Alonso will have a very hard time convincing McLaren that he deserves special treatment... ;)

[Cort Haus]

Nigel Stepney's POV

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19721.html

[Zoid]

Stupid McLaren :mad: They wouldn't have lost much by pitting Hamilton a few laps earlier. He had a good lead and there's no reason not to play it safe in this situation. Even a fourth place would've been acceptable... :shame:

[Thorgal]

Well, i would not blame McLaren I would say that Hamilton, maybe too used to having everything working in his favour, risked too much fighting with Kimi and Trulli in a less than idoneal situtation and was not able to maintain his tyres cool and his car on track, as everyone else was.

[Zoid]

Possibly, but still. It's the teams responsibility to pit a driver when they see somethings wrong. Hamiltons tyres were visibly very worn 10 laps before his little mishap. OTOH Hamilton should've insisted on a pit stop when he noticed the car was becoming difficult to handle...

[Thorgal]

As de la Rosa said in Spanish TV, Hamilton started the race very light. If they had pitted him 10 laps before, he had been forced to do a stop more than the others before the race end.

[Thorgal]

From autosport:

"The problem was rain and his (Hamilton's) tyres were in the worst condition. But we weren't at all fazed about Kimi. We weren't racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando."
Ron Dennis.

Amazing... Too much for that equal treatment myth i would say. I would say too than Alonso is amazingly near to Hamilton in the championship considering the ridiculous situation in that team...

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Thorgal
As de la Rosa said in Spanish TV, Hamilton started the race very light. If they had pitted him 10 laps before, he had been forced to do a stop more than the others before the race end.

True, but he still could've beaten Vettel in 4th and gotten 5 points instead of 0. I don't know why they risked it when he was in full control of both race and championship...

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Thorgal
From autosport:

"The problem was rain and his (Hamilton's) tyres were in the worst condition. But we weren't at all fazed about Kimi. We weren't racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando."
Ron Dennis.

Amazing... Too much for that equal treatment myth i would say. I would say too than Alonso is amazingly near to Hamilton in the championship considering the ridiculous situation in that team...

Alonso is lucky to still have a car after the things he's being saying about his boss and team.

[Zoid]

Indeed.

[Thorgal]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Alonso is lucky to still have a car after the things he's being saying about his boss and team.
Alonso has the car not becuase he is lucky but becuase according to the contract McLaren is obliged to give him a capable car at every race, period. In any case Ron has confirmed Alonso´s critics towards the team...

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Thorgal
In any case Ron has confirmed Alonso´s critics towards the team...

And you don't think that Ron's alleged comments today have anything to do with the way Alonso blackmailed the team to try and force them to give him preferential treatment? Or the public attacks he has made against Dennis and the team? Or his claim to have engineered six tenths of the car's good pace this season? Alonso complained bitterly that Renault failed to give him enough support when he was there too. Could there be a pattern developing here?

I can't imagine what Alonso's reaction would have been if it had been his pitstop that the team screwed up, rather than Hamilton's.

Another interesting detail is the way Hamilton's reaction was to appologise for his mistake in the pitlane, even though Witmarsh and the team admitted that it was their fault for keeping him out till his tyres broke while waiting to see what the weather was doing (nothing to do with lack of fuel). Not many drivers would do that.

There's a difference between equal equipment and equal opportunity on one hand, and perhaps a historical bond between a driver and team that has grown over the years. For all the accusations that the bond between Hamilton and the team is based on national lines, this ignores the bond between Ron and Mikka back when the British David Coulthard was Mikka's team-mate. Mikka and Ron had a personal bond, and the same may be true with Lewis, which would hardly be surprising seeing as the lad has grown up in the McLaren team.

At the end of the day friendship is one thing, professional equality is something else. There is no evidence that Dennis has denied Alonso equal opportunity, but there is evidence that Alonso demanded special treatment.

[Thorgal]

At the end of the day friendship is one thing, professional equality is something else. There is no evidence that Dennis has denied Alonso equal opportunity, but there is evidence that Alonso demanded special treatment.
AFAIK the only evidence about Alonso demanding such thing is the word of Ron Dennis. Weak evidence if i have seen any.

[Cort Haus]

Well, I didn't remember reading anything from Alonso that contradicted that claim. However, even if one disbelieve Ron Dennis on that item, the other points made above still stand.

[Cort Haus]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/222/1509060922_d6e630fc95.jpg

:eek:

[LordShiva]

7 points :hmmm:

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/222/1509060922_d6e630fc95.jpg

:eek:

:eek: indeed. No wonder he couldn't steer...

[Thorgal]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Well, I didn't remember reading anything from Alonso that contradicted that claim. However, even if one disbelieve Ron Dennis on that item, the other points made above still stand.
In fact Fernando talks a lot about how Ron's lies about him.
He's already said that Macca promised him no No 1 status to him and he always accepted it. The said it precisely in an interview last weekend:
http://f1.informativos.telecinco.es/f1_1381.htm (spanish)

About your other point it can be reduced to the chicken and the egg thingy. What was first Alonso being relegatted in the team because his critics or Alonso critics becuase the was being relegated?

Alonso manager said yesterday: "The truth about what's been happening will eventually come out. You guys will be AMAZED...". Well maybe yes maybe not, but i would wait until Alonso bounds with McLaren end and everybody can speak freely before making any assumption.

[Zoid]

Boohoo... :rolleyes:

Alonso expects McLaren to play fair
Sunday, 07, October, 2007, 16:15

Fernando Alonso believes McLaren will give him the same opportunity to win the world championship in Brazil as team-mate Lewis Hamilton, despite the breakdown in his relationship with the team over recent weeks.

Alonso reignited his title hopes by finishing second in the Chinese Grand Prix after erstwhile race leader Hamilton slithered into retirement on worn-out tyres.

He now trails the British rookie by just four points heading into the season finale at Interlagos, and can secure a third successive championship if he wins with Hamilton finishing third or lower.

Alonso admits Sunday’s events have given him another chance but is fully aware that he still faces an uphill task to surmount Hamilton’s lead.

“Today I’m happy with the result of the race because I’ve been very, very lucky with the retirement of Lewis,” he told ITV Sport’s Louise Goodman.

“For a championship chance I think it’s still very difficult to recover four points in a normal race.

“We know how difficult it will be.

“I will be very optimistic for Brazil, but knowing it will be difficult.”

The already strained relationship between Alonso and McLaren boss Ron Dennis has been further inflamed in Shanghai.

In Thursday’s pre-event press conference, Alonso refused to discount the possibility that the team might play favourites or deliberately disadvantage the out-of-favour Spaniard to ensure the title ended up with Hamilton.

Dennis, in turn, expressed his disappointment that Alonso should countenance such a suggestion rather than restating the team’s commitment to equality.

Then, after Hamilton took pole position on Saturday and he qualified only fourth, Alonso reacted angrily and again criticised McLaren and Dennis in the media.

He was in more diplomatic mood on Sunday afternoon, although he did not resile from his earlier comments.

He admitted he was still concerned about whether he had the team’s full backing – but acknowledged that he would be given equal equipment.

“I think that is still a worry, no doubt, but at the end of the day I think both cars are the same and with the same performance, so it’s up to me to do a little bit better,” he said.

“But for sure it’s not easy with the relationship with the team has with me.”

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41003&PO=41003

[Zoid]

Silly season is starting early this year...

OCTOBER 11, 2007
Letters of intent

If the German media is correct and Fernando Alonso has signed a letter of intent to drive for Renault in 2008 then he is likely to be in breach of his McLaren contract and unless he has a very good argument as to why he can walk away, would thus have to bash open his piggy-bank and pay the Woking team for the two years that remain on his contract. Despite his constant public support for Alonso, there is no doubt that Ron Dennis is a man who would be forgiven for feeling a certain amount of antipathy towards the Spaniard after their exchange of views in Hungary. The full details of that conversation have never be revealed but it certainly included a threat to report McLaren to the FIA with regard to e-mails that Alonso had in his computer - which were up to that point unknown to the team. Dennis said that Alonso later retracted his threat and apologised but the two men have not talked since then and one wonders what else might have been said in that conversation that have caused such a chill to pass through the team, which despite its outer coolness is usually a pretty warm place.

Alonso is committed until the end of 2009 and the team has built a package of sponsorship around him with the likes of Vodafone and Banco Santander. If Alonso walks there will be collateral damage for McLaren. Legally-speaking Alonso cannot just join another team because McLaren would then be able to challenge that deal with the Contract Recognition Board and if this body ruled in McLaren's favour - which it would because it considers only the contracts it has, not the arguments around them - Alonso could be made to sit on the bench in 2008 if he does not want to race for McLaren.

In other words, if there is to be a settlement someone is going to have to pay to get Fernando out of McLaren. The reality is that Alonso is unlikely to be able to afford that himself - as he was not a big earner at Renault before he moved to McLaren - and he would thus be relying on Renault to pay that for him - and that does not sound like the kind of thing that Renault boss Carlos Ghosn is going to sanction because he wants cost-effective F1 rather than the bills for purchasing stars. It is possible that Flavio Briatore might find a sponsor to pay for it but at that kind of money it would require a lot of space on the car. The others that could do it (Toyota) may not be very attractive to Alonso or think they are not ready to take him (BMW).

Fernando might like to be fired but there would need to be suitable grounds for a dismissal and McLaren cannot afford to do that before the end of the World Championship lest the watchdogs from the FIA come busting through the door, claiming that the team is manipulating the World Championship. But firing Fernando does not make much sense for McLaren because if there is an opportunity to offset any collateral damage from his departure it would be logical for the team to take it.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19759.html

[LordShiva]

Lewis Hamilton has escaped punishment for breaking Formula One's tyre rules in practice for the Brazilian Grand Prix.

The 22-year-old Briton, who is on the verge of becoming the first rookie champion in the history of the sport, and the youngest too, was investigated by the FIA race stewards for using two sets of intermediate tyres in a wet opening session.

Under Formula One rules, drivers are only allowed to use one set.

:shame:

[Zoid]

Well he didn't escape punishment as such, he was fined €15000 and had to hand in the second pair of wets to FIA...

[Thorgal]

2005 at Monaco...
Toyota driver Ralf Schumacher has received a time penalty for the second time in three events after a tyre mix-up in Thursday practice at Monaco ahead of this weekend's Grand Prix...
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2005/5/3028.html

:cute:

[Krill]

Hamilton should have been penalised on time if that is the precedent...along with the others.

[LordShiva]

Massa Hamilton Kimi Alonso

[Zoid]

The race tomorrow will be very exciting to say the least. Let's just hope it doesn't end up in a god-awful mess in the first corner.... :desire:

[LordShiva]

Hamilton and Massa take each other out, and then Kubica overtakes Alonso for 2nd on teh final lap :b::dance:

[Cort Haus]

Just as well they didn't give Alonso the wrong tyres instead of Hamilton, or it could be see as a deliberate attempt to push him down the order had a grid penalty been applied.

[Ninot]

QUITE the race

[Cort Haus]

Well done Kimi. :b:

He's deserved to win the WDC in previous years, and this year it came to him.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Just as well they didn't give Alonso the wrong tyres instead of Hamilton, or it could be see as a deliberate attempt to push him down the order had a grid penalty been applied.

Just as well also that Alonso didn't have a mechanical failure, and a bad 3 stop strategy.

[Thorgal]

McLaren = :lol: x 1000

[Thorgal]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Just as well also that Alonso didn't have a mechanical failure, and a bad 3 stop strategy.
According to de la Rosa, your "mecanical failure" was due to Hamilton multiple off-track excursions. Too much dust in the air intaker warmed the hydraulic system and the gearbox was unusable along some seconds.

[Zoid]

What a race! And what a season!! :eek: :faint: Easily the best season since I started watching F1 in the early 90's... And Raikonnen really deserves to be World Champion, he's always been very good and he's never put on airs or been a bastard. I'm happy for him actually, I thought he lost his chance after 2003 when he lost the championship to Schumi by two points. Then the abyssmal season of 2004, and then beaten soundly by Alonso in 2005 and 2006. It could easily have been so that he'd joined the crowd of drivers who should've won the DWC but never did.

Kimi :b:
:dance:

[Pekka]

Pretty good race, Nico did all he could in the last 10 laps to screw Kimi over by taking out everyone. He was racing like a maniac for.. the 4th place. Wow, he was craaaazy...

[Pekka]

Plus I think it's good for the sport. Räikkönen deserved to be the champ, he's been so close and has had some bad luck as well, so... it was his time. Hamilton was a rookie too so... it'll just make it more interesting for the next season, a rookie who almost took it all. It'll be a battle. Who knows, maybe BMW gets their crap together and actually can deliver a car for the next season.

Wouldn't mind having a third team fighting for the glory.

[LordShiva]

Kimi :dance:

I was scared when Rosberg tried to take Kubica out.

Hamilton threw it away in China, but could have salvaged it if he didn't throw it away again today. Hopefully he'll be more mature next season.

[Zoid]

Indeed. I'm excited already! :expect: But I must say that BMW performed quite well this season, they qualified good and raced good as well. Even if BMW never threatened McLaren or Ferrari they were up there, firmly rooted in the third place.

[Cort Haus]

If BMW can step up one more notch they'll be the third team genuinely competing next year.

[Zoid]

I made a small F1 quiz over at Facebook. I'll see if I can migrate it here... :)

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Thorgal
According to de la Rosa, your "mecanical failure" was due to Hamilton multiple off-track excursions.

Multiple? I missed all of them apart from the one at the start.

[Cort Haus]

I'd also like to mention the excellent news that Ferrari are designing the engines and chassis for A1GP as from next year.

I believe this is great news because I have found A1 to be a more entertaining series than F1 over the last couple of seasons, and its main problem is finding a profile. It still needs some TV deals that will reach more people, but this is a step in the right direction IMO.

[LordShiva]

If Force India F1 challenges for teh title next year (:lol:), I'll have to stop supporting Ferrari.

[Thorgal]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Multiple? I missed all of them apart from the one at the start.
He went out once more. Some meters only, but that was the one where most dust came into the car.

[LordShiva]

Also, Hakkinen was at teh race. Somehow, his wife's become ugly in teh last few years :(

[Pekka]

DUde, the woman in the picture was NOT the wife :lol: ;)

[LordShiva]

:relief:

[Zoid]

Test your knowledge! :-) LS you might want to do it again, I ****ed up on the last two questions... :o

Question #1
Besides Kimi Raikonen how many finns have won the F1 drivers championship?

1
2
3
None, Kimi is the first.

Question #2
Kimi almost won in 2003, but was beaten by a very small margin by Michael Schumacher. By how many points?

1
2
5
10

Question #3
Besides Ferrari and McLaren what other F1 team have Kimi been driving for?

Jordan
Sauber
Arrows
Williams

Question #4
Michael Schumacher won the drivers championship 7 times. But who had the most WC titles (5) before Schumacher?

Niki Lauda
Alain Prost
Ayrton Senna
Juan Manuel Fangio

Question #5
How many points did McLaren score in the 2007 Constructors Championship?

186
153
94
0

Question #6
Which is the only F1 team that has been in F1 since the start in 1950?

Ferrari
McLaren
Williams
Renault

Question #7
How many swedish drivers have been driving F1?

3
5
7
10

Question #8
What team was Ronnie Pettersson (Sweden's No1 racing star) in when he died in 1978?

Lotus
Tyrell
Ferrari
McLaren

Question #9
Who was the last non-european driver to win the World Championship?

Emerson Fittipaldi
Ayrton Senna
Jaques Villeneuve
Mario Andretti

Question #10
28 drivers have won the World Championship. How many of them were british?

11
8
5
13

[Pekka]

"Question #1
Besides Kimi Raikonen how many finns have won the F1 drivers championship?

1
2
3
None, Kimi is the first."

3. The first one was Keke Rosberg (his son Nico is driving now in the F1s, but he is a kraut. Bastard.) Second one is Mika Häkkinen and the third one is Kimi Räikkönen. I mean how many ways can you really spell it wrong? ;)

Question 3.

Sauber.

THe other questions are good as well, kind of not too easy, because the false options are deceptive ;)

[Zoid]

I mean how many ways can you really spell it wrong?

Sorry, I'm usually so meticulous in my spelling... ;)

THe other questions are good as well, kind of not too easy, because the false options are deceptive

Tx! How about answering them? ;)

[Pekka]

I don't want to look like an idiot ;). Like I said, the alternative options are pretty good so it's difficult, you coudl easily rule out usually but this time it's pretty difficult actually. So you are being kinky.

[Cort Haus]

The other questions:

2: 2 points
4: Fangio
5: 0
6: Ferrari
7: No idea
8: Lotus
9: JV
10: 8

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Pekka
I don't want to look like an idiot ;).

Chicken :p

Like I said, the alternative options are pretty good so it's difficult, you coudl easily rule out usually but this time it's pretty difficult actually. So you are being kinky.

I'll take that as a compliment :D

[BlackCat]

WTF ??? :huh:

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2007/10/7023.html


BMW Sauber, Williams escape penalty; McLaren could appeal

The BMW Sauber and Williams teams have escaped penalty after being investigated by Brazilian Grand Prix stewards over fuel irregularities on their cars at the end of Sunday’s Interlagos race.

Under Formula One racing’s technical regulations fuel temperatures are not allowed to fall more than 10 degrees Celsius below ambient air temperature at any time. According to FIA data, Williams and BMW Sauber exceeded this range during the race, but after deliberating for several hours stewards decided the evidence was insufficient to justify sanctions.

However, McLaren are expected to appeal the stewards' decision, which if overturned could have serious implications for the 2007 drivers' championship.

Nico Rosberg finished fourth for Williams, with Robert Kubica and Nick Heidfeld fifth and sixth respectively for BMW Sauber. If they were to be disqualified, Lewis Hamilton would move up to from seventh to fourth, giving
him enough points to beat Kimi Raikkonen to the title.


http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2007/10/7032.html


McLaren lodge Brazilian Grand Prix appeal - updated

The FIA has confirmed that McLaren have appealed the decision of stewards not to penalise BMW Sauber and Williams at Sunday’s Brazilian Grand Prix at Interlagos.

Both teams were investigated after the race, following suggestions that their cars had run with fuel more than the permitted 10 degrees Celsius below ambient temperature.

Stewards ultimately decided there was insufficient evidence to justify sanctioning the teams and the result of the race, which saw Nico Rosberg finish fourth for Williams, with Robert Kubica and Nick Heidfeld fifth and sixth for BMW, was declared official.

Commenting on their decision to appeal, McLaren released the following statement on Tuesday:

“The team has taken the view, from the information that we currently have available that there was non-compliance with the Regulations. The team believes that the FIA has, in written clarification of the Technical Regulations and in its minutes of two Formula 1 Team Manager meetings, made clear how it would interpret and manage the Regulations and Procedures associated with the control of fuel temperatures. This process was followed in the normal manner by the FIA Technical Delegate following the Brazilian Grand Prix and the irregularities were reported by him to the Stewards of the meeting. Consequently the team does not understand the justification as described in the decision published late on Sunday evening.

“The significance of this matter and its timing is, of course, regrettable. The team wishes to win races and Championships on the track. However, if there has been an irregularity, which is not the fault of the team, we feel that the matter must be properly examined to ensure that the rules are applied. This is something that we believe the FIA would fully support and would wish to be seen to have done.

“Vodafone McLaren Mercedes wishes to stress, however, that it does not question the integrity of either the BMW or Williams teams. We know, without even enquiring, that neither team would have sought to achieve a performance advantage by such an irregularity and that the situation could only have arisen as the consequence of an operational error within the team on the day.

“Ultimately we feel that the FIA should determine whether an irregularity occurred or not, and the team will fully respect the process and any decision that is ultimately given.”

The FIA has yet to announce a date for the appeal.

[Zoid]

Meh, the FIA has thrown it out once. They're not going to change their mind. I don't see why McLaren is appealing this...

[LordShiva]

Apparently, this fuel temperature thing has happened before. Forget who it was, but teh team was docked teh points while the driver was allowed to keep his.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Zoid
I don't see why McLaren is appealing this...

Yeah, that is what puzzles me too - I could understand it if the teams had done it deliberately or if it had been a close race.

[Zoid]

Hamilton doesn't want to win the DWC in court

If successful, the appeal has the potential to overturn Kimi Raikkonen’s championship victory and hand the title to McLaren’s Lewis Hamilton.

But the 22-year-old Briton admitted on Monday that he would not feel comfortable winning by virtue of a court decision.

“Being promoted after some people have been thrown out is not the way I want to win it,” he said.

“I don’t know, it would feel weird after Kimi did such a fantastic job in the last two races and won on Sunday.

“Having it taken away would be a bit cruel and probably not good for the sport.”

You think so?? ;) A court case is just what this season needs on top of all the other shite that's been going on... :rolleyes:

[CerberusIV]

This isn't about the DWC and McLaren probably don't expect to win. This is about putting the FIA on the spot and trying to force them to be 1) consistent in their decisions and 2) if they can jump hard on McLaren with relatively little evidence then they have to jump on any other team (even the red one) with equally little evidence.

Anything that jerks the FIA's chain is good - they deserve all the grief they can be given.

[Zoid]

Well, that's true I suppose. FIA needs to get its **** together and start being consistent.

[Zoid]

Should McLaren appeal the Brazilian GP result?

There has been some talk in the last couple of days about whether McLaren is correct in going ahead with its appeal against the decision not to exclude the Williams and BMW Saubers cars from the result of the 2007 Brazilian Grand Prix. If the cars are excluded, then Lewis Hamilton would win the World Championship.

Some have criticised McLaren, arguing that the team is a bad loser and is now trying to kick over the board because it has lost the game. That is an understandable argument if this action is taken at face value but one has to put the appeal into a proper context if one is going to get the full picture. This has been a year in which - rightly or wrongly - McLaren has felt itself under attack from the FIA. Throughout the year there have been a series of events where the team's integrity has been called into question, culminating in the loss of all of its Constructors' Championship points and a fine of $100m, based on evidence that was at best circumstantial. The damage to McLaren's image has been considerable and there is a decent argument that a great deal of that damage has been encouraged by leaks to the media from other parties involved. McLaren has taken most of this on the chin. There is no argument that a McLaren employee was involved in receiving information that belonged to Ferrari but the evidence that any of this information was used (or will be used) is flimsy at best. And, as insiders in F1 know, there are far worse examples of such things which could come to light in the future.

McLaren's attitude has been that it should make the most of a bad situation and try to ensure that similar things do not happen again. Whether one chooses to accept this interpretation is, inevitably, a subjective decision. The English media, which knows the team well, is largely supportive of McLaren. The foreign press, which has more input from Ferrari and Fernando Alonso and less understanding of Ron Dennis and his people, believes otherwise.

What is clear in this latest flare-up is that it was not initiated by McLaren. The FIA Technical Delegate discovered the problem in Brazil and reported it to the FIA Stewards. Jo Bauer was simply doing his job.

It is a very serious issue, which could affect the outcome of the World Championship, and while it is clear that there was no intention to cheat and the effect of the illegality may be small, there are rules and these ought to be respected.

Thus the decision of the stewards to reject the findings of the FIA Technical Delegate based on an apparent vagueness in the measuring process was one that raised a lot of questions.

"The team believes that the FIA has, in written clarification of the Technical Regulations and in its minutes of two Formula 1 Team Manager meetings, made clear how it would interpret and manage the regulations and procedures associated with the control of fuel temperatures," McLaren said in a statement after its appeal was announced. "This process was followed in the normal manner by the FIA Technical Delegate following the Brazilian Grand Prix and the irregularities were reported by him to the Stewards of the meeting. Consequently the team does not understand the justification as described in the decision published late on Sunday evening."

Sadly, written clarifications and minutes of team managers meetings are not public documents so it is hard to know exactly what constitutes the regulations in this case.

That in itself is an indictment of the system that exists. If there are rules why are they not written down and published in a sensible form which can be easily understood by everyone, not just those with access to the paperwork? And, perhaps more importantly, were the stewards aware of these clarifications and minutes?

Does one arm of the FIA know what the other is doing?

Sadly, these are not the only questions that arise as a result of the World Championship outcome.

There are also questions about the way that the FIA handled the question of the Ferrari floor at the Australian Grand Prix. The device was deemed to be illegal a few days after the Australian GP. This clarification was not deemed to be retroactive despite the fact that McLaren alerted the FIA's Charlie Whiting to the problem on March 16 - two days before the Melbourne race - using the protocol that is employed of seeking an opinion from the FIA. This is considered to be a better way to solve problems than by using public protests. Whiting did not rule on the matter until after the event. Thus McLaren could have protested the Ferrari in Melbourne and Ferrari might have been excluded but the British team did not do so "in the interest of motor sport". It has now paid a very high price for trying to avoid a controversial start to the season.

The details of what has happened in the past are not of much use because they will change nothing unless one day all of this goes into civil law, but it does suggest that in the future no team can afford to baulk at such action. If trying to behave in a sporting manner creates the possibility of losing a World Championship, there is no team in F1 that would hold back.

Formula 1 teams exist to win and they do not like losing, particularly if they feel they have been harshly treated.

McLaren explains in its press release about the appeal that "the significance of this matter and its timing is, of course, regrettable" and says that it wishes to win races and championships on the track but adds that if there has been an irregularity, "the matter must be properly examined to ensure that the rules are applied".

McLaren also makes it quite clear that it is not questioning the integrity of BMW Sauber and Williams.

"We know, without even enquiring, that neither team would have sought to achieve a performance advantage by such an irregularity and that the situation could only have arisen as the consequence of an operational error within the team on the day."

Is this all just so much puff to disguise a naked desire to win the World Championship at any cost?

One can argue that case if it suits one's purposes.

From where we are sitting, McLaren's response seems rather restrained. If the team really wanted the World Championship that badly and believes that it has a case, it would stop messing about and go to a civil court and get things sorted out using real world justice rather than the somewhat idiosyncractic ways of F1. McLaren has not gone down that route because it knows that in the pursuit of justice, the sport could be seriously damaged. Others say that there are no such noble motives and that McLaren does not have a case that would stand up outside the sport. The only way to find that out would be to try it and there are times when one wonders whether it might not be a good idea to force the sport to put its structures to the test. At the same time it is clear that the wisest route would be for those involved to work quietly to find a way to change without the need for QCs and screaming headlines.

The big question is whether those involved are capable of such a sensible solution or whether egos, vested interests and past histories have created a situation in which such things are simply impossible.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19815.html

[CerberusIV]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7070564.stm

Motorsport boss Max Mosley has said Lewis Hamilton could have a negative effect on Formula One if he is as successful next year as he was in 2007.

Max Mosley is clearly feeling the heat and worried that someone may challenge his, and the FIA's, monopoly on being a negative influence on F1.

[Cort Haus]

:lol:

What a toe-rag that Moseley is.

[Zoid]

And to no ones surprise...

Alonso and McLaren part ways

In a move that seemed inevitable, two-time World Champion Fernando Alonso will not drive for McLaren-Mercedes next season. The team released an announcement stating that following a meeting with Alonso it was agreed that it would be best for all concerned to end the relationship.

Fernando Alonso said, "Since I was a boy I had always wanted to drive for McLaren, but sometimes in life things do not work out. I continue to believe that McLaren is a great team. Yes, we have had our ups and downs during the season, which has made it extra-challenging for all of us, and it is not a secret that I never really felt at home. I know there have been suggestions of favouritism within the team and people say a lot of things in the heat of battle, but in the end I was always provided with an equal opportunity to win. Today's decision allows all of us to focus on 2008, and I wish the team, Vodafone, Banco Santander, Mutua Madrilena and all the other team Partners who I have worked closely with during the year, the best for the future."

McLaren team principal Ron Dennis said, "Everybody at Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, especially McLaren's Spanish Partners Banco Santander and Mutua Madrilena and the team's title partner Vodafone, want to wish Fernando all the best for the future. He is a great driver but for some reason the combination of Vodafone McLaren Mercedes and Fernando has not really worked out, and in the end we reached a stage where none of us could find a way to move forward. We all believe that our joint decision to part company is for the best, and we will now continue to focus on our 2008 World Championship challenge."

[Cort Haus]

So now it's Renault's turn to have a spy scandal. What will the FIA do this time?

And Ross Brawn to Honda - :eek:.

[Zoid]

If they give Renault a lesser punishment the ****'s really gonna hit the fan.

And Ross Brawn :eek: indeed...

[Cort Haus]

If they do give Renault the same punishment then Renault might pack their bags and leave. Mad Max has painted himself into a corner.

[Zoid]

I don't think Max cares if Renault leaves. He's proven time and again that he doesn't care about the sport... :mad:

[Krill]

Renault :q:

Why did they have to be cheaters as well :frownno:

[Cort Haus]

Everyone cheats all the time. It's so much 'part of the sport' that they don't think about it. If they thought about it, why would that idiot Coughlin take the Ferrari designs to a public print shop to duplicate them?

Every time someone changes teams, they take info about the previous team's designs with them. Ross Brawn will be taking Ferrari info to Honda, but in his head. That's normal, but if he took something on paper it would be illegal.

Ferrari were running a front wing last year that was designed at McLaren by a guy who went from McLaren to Ferrari.

[Krill]

It isn't insider knowledge, it's work experience :b:

[Krill]

Maclaren failed then in their "attempt" to screw over the other teams...

[Zoid]

It was doomed to fail from the start. Noone expected this to go through...

[Zoid]

From grandprix.com

The FIA Appeal Court decision

The decision of the FIA International Court of Appeal - and the way it was handled - has done nothing to add to the credibility of the FIA. Not that it was expected to do. The appeal process was something that the FIA wanted to avoid because it would either show that an FIA official (Jo Bauer) had made a mistake in the way in which he reported the temperatures of the fuel in the refuelling machines at Interlagos, or that the rules are in such a mess on this matter that no-one knew what was right and what was wrong. It is arguable which is worse. McLaren said, and some believed them, that this was not about the World Championship. They argued that it was about knowing what constitutes the rules. Well, yes, in part. It was also about putting the FIA in an embarrassing spot with a very public issue but given what has been done to the team this summer that is perhaps understandable.

The FIA chose to orchestrate matters in such a way as to make sure that the Court of Appeal decision received very little coverage. The first reports of the result came on the Pitpass.com website in the middle of the afternoon. Was that a guess? The website, a sensible one in F1 terms, claimed that it had come "from a very good source". And it was right. So if the result was known at that time of the day, one is led to ask, why did the FIA delay an announcement until the middle of the evening?

The explanation of why the appeal was ruled inadmissable was not given, indeed not even McLaren knew the details on Friday night.

"We have not yet seen the text of the FIA International Court of Appeal decision," said Martin Whitmarsh of McLaren. "And we hope that clarification is provided. It's important to stress that the FIA Stewards' inquiry at the Brazilian Grand Prix was not triggered by any action from McLaren, but by a report written and made public by the FIA Technical Delegate, which drew the FIA Stewards' attention to what we regarded as a clear regulation breach on the part of BMW-Sauber and Williams. Our appeal was merely a logical and procedural step in the process begun by the FIA Technical Delegates written report. We hope that this fuel temperature issue does not remain unresolved in Formula 1 next year but we look forward to working with the FIA and the teams on clarifying matters to avoid a similar situation occurring again."

Williams, which was not happy with the McLaren appeal because of the implications involved (and perhaps because McLaren has been sniffing around Nico Rosberg of late) greeted the decision and indicated that "the appeal of the Stewards decision was found to be inadmissible as McLaren failed to follow the correct and clearly documented protest procedure".

The rights of appeal are defined in the FIA Statutes and one of these items says that appeals against decisions by the stewards of a meeting can be lodged by "one of the parties concerned". One can argue that McLaren was not involved in the supposed offence but at the same time one can argue that McLaren was concerned because the result of the World Championship might rest upon the result. That seems like a decent argument that McLaren was concerned. Perhaps there are other contradictory references to the right to appeal elsewhere in the FIA paperwork but one would probably argue that the statutes of the organisation - the basic rules of the association - would over-rule any lesser arguments.

The other point that needs to be answered is why it took 36 hours to decide that the appeal was not admissable. There was an hour of argument at the beginning of the case about this and then the case went ahead and everyone listened the evidence from the parties involved. Is it normal in a judicial process to decide that a case is inadmissable after the case has run its entire course? Would normal legal processes be pursued in such a fashion?

It would have been so much better for the FIA to have either thrown out the case at the beginning or to have addressed the issues fully and given a clear answer about the rights and wrongs involved.

The Williams statement did however point out that "there is no specified source for the ambient temperature measurement, and there is no homologated and sealed sensor for measuring fuel temperature either in the fuel rigs or on-board the cars" and added that its arguments were "consistent with all of the clarifications and opinions related to fuel temperatures expressed in Team Managers' Meetings and other such forums".

The problem has gone away. But the decision and, perhaps more obviously, the way it was delivered, gave the impression that it was something that needed to be shoved under the carpet.

The FIA has expended a great deal of effort in recent years trying to make people have more faith in the Court of Appeal. This is a good thing because it had little credibility until a few years ago. There are still questions to be answered: why were two of four judges the same names that we have seen over and over again over the years? This, the FIA explains, is because of availability. But then one must ask why judges are picked who never appear? Surely the availability should be one of the qualifications for the job, to ensure that people do not end up asking such questions. Or perhaps there should be some unimpeachable chief justice. The system of stewarding in F1 received a huge credibility boost when Tony Scott-Andrews appeared on the scene. You only had to meet the man to know that he was straight and that his decision would be based on the best interests of the sport. The Court of Appeal could use such a figure.

The FIA is very touchy on the subject of its governance. This is understandable. But the best response is to make decisions that follow the norms of legal processes and to change the system which allows critics to ask perfectly reasonable questions about how things are done.