Rank Today's Hockey Goaltenders, Top 5

[Asher]

1. Miikka Kiprusoff (Calgary): On his "off" nights he's still a top goaltender. A complete workhorse, steals countless games, never gets rattled.
2. Cristobal Huet (Montreal): Still has <em>some</em> consistency problems, probably can't play 99% of games a la Kipper.
3. Martin Brodeur (New Jersey): Another workhorse. Has had some pretty "off" offnights this season, but usually is stellar.
4. Marty Turco (Dallas): Really outstanding this year, plays a lot of games as well. Pretty consistent.
5. Jean-Sebastian Giguere (Anaheim): He's way too inconsistent to rate higher.

[Ninot]

Hmm....

I'll take your top 2

then

3: Vokoun: Most under recognized goalie in the league
4: Brodeur
5: Miller: My personal opinion, I think this kid has the goods

[Asher]

Vokoun gets LOTS of respect out west, but he's been too injured as of late to contend.

[notyoueither]

Rick DiPietro!

[Lord Avalon]

What about the Dominator? His GAA of 1.96 currently leads the league.

[Asher]

He's too old/injury prone to count these days.

Plus last night he sucked so much ass he can't count.

[Lord Avalon]

I didn't know this was an age-qualified thing. If he can stay healthy (I know, that's a big "if"), then I think he's still one of the best.

OK, so he had an off night. (Good for my BP that I missed the game.)

Hopefully with the Wings using him less, he'll last the season.

What's going on in San Jose? Both their goalies are in the top 10 GAA, Nabokov at 3rd with 2.03 in 17 gms, Toskala at 6th with 2.15 in 18 gms.

[vovan]

I don't really follow enough games to rate the top 5, but what about Cam Ward? I haven't seen him this season, but he was pretty good last spring, no? :)

Also, I sure as hell know who won't be making it on the list and that's Johan Hedberg. :mad: The only other dude I see with any regularity (Lehthonen) is not quite as bad, but nothing spectacular either. :bored:

[Asher]

Ward has sucked this season. I was stupid enough to draft him was my #1 goalie in the Poly pool...

I didn't know this was an age-qualified thing.
It's somewhat implied by "Today's top goaltenders". Since Hasek can't put in as many minutes as the others in the list, it knocks him down several pegs. That and he's had some consistency problems.

Nabokov/Toskala are both excellent this season, but time will tell how they handle being a sole #1 starter. Look at Manny Fernandez for instance.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Hasek's save percentage also isn't that hot. It seems his low GAA is more the product of great defense rather than great goaltending (though I'm not saying he sucks). Currently Hasek is 19th in the NHL in Save%.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Asher

It's somewhat implied by "Today's top goaltenders". Since Hasek can't put in as many minutes as the others in the list, it knocks him down several pegs. That and he's had some consistency problems.
.

When I consider the question, I take it as " IF I was a GM, which goalie would I choose"-- and I assume that I want the goalie right now for a cup contending team , don't care about two seasons hence and salary is a non-issue.

My list would probably be somewhat like Asher's although I don't know that I could rank Huet #2 since he has only been this good for 2 years really now. I might even consider Luongo somewhere in that top 5. and Brodeur would be my #2 on the list

[Flubber]

OH and since we are on goalies, In was wondering Asher if you have any comments on MR Tellqvist now that his GAA with Phoenix is 3.39 and his save percentage is .883.

Note that of 42 active goalies (with at least 10 games played) FORTY of them have a SV% better than that . Oh and Forty-one have a better GAA (only Cloutier of the Kings prevents Tellqvist from trailing the ENTIRE NHL field)

Now its only 6 games etc etc etc and he does play for Phoenix but worst numbers in the league ??? Ya thats quite a commodity Toronto surrendered there

[Asher]

Telqvist is a good, backup-quality goaltender. He's not used to all of the starts, and Phoenix's defense could help him out a bit.

Still a complete fleecing of Toronto if that's what you're asking.

[Asher]

Also note, Toronto's goaltending tonight was even more asstastic than Telqvists'. ;)

[Asher]

I need to revise my list to put Roloson as #1 now. Amazing performance.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Asher
Also note, Toronto's goaltending tonight was even more asstastic than Telqvists'. ;)

well thats a for sure-- although the highlights I saw, a good few of them were breakaways and slappers from like 10 feet out where the golaie had little chance

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Asher
I need to revise my list to put Roloson as #1 now. Amazing performance.

I watched the 3rd period of that one . The winning goal was particularly ugly. It was almost from behind the net and trickled through the pads.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Asher
Telqvist is a good, backup-quality goaltender.

Tough to agree with that when he is 40th or 41st out of the playing goaltenders . . . or do you argue that those numbers would be better if he played less.

PLaying for Phoenix helps explain his poor GAA but goalies with weaker teams can sometimes have very good Sv %.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher
I need to revise my list to put Roloson as #1 now. Amazing performance.

Oilers fans are speechless. Have you seen a shot of MacTavish after the wrap around (7th goal)?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Flubber


I watched the 3rd period of that one . The winning goal was particularly ugly. It was almost from behind the net and trickled through the pads.

No, that was the first goal. Turgeon banked it in off Roli's knee/thigh from the boards.

For the last goal at least the player's stick had to be on the 'right' side of the line.

[Tingkai]

An unbaised assessment would put Brodeur at No. 1. He's got the Cup wings to prove his worth and he delivers when the money is down. It's one thing to have potential. It is another thing to have actually won the Cup.

Hasek would rate in the top five. The question about him is not his age, but whether he will get in a pout and invent another mysterious illness. If he doesn't the Wings are cup contenders.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
An unbaised assessment would put Brodeur at No. 1. He's got the Cup wings to prove his worth and he delivers when the money is down. It's one thing to have potential. It is another thing to have actually won the Cup.

Hasek would rate in the top five. The question about him is not his age, but whether he will get in a pout and invent another mysterious illness. If he doesn't the Wings are cup contenders.

I guess you and I are looking at different criteria. I really do not care what goaltenders have accomplished in the past, I care about what they can do today (thus the "today's" qualifier). That's why Huet ranks so high.

I'm mostly looking at this season's performance. I value very highly consistency and how many games they can play reliably.

Brodeur is 6th in GAA and 7th in sv%. If you look at his game log, he's had a lot of off nights compared to the guys I put in #1 and #2 on the chart: 10 games with below 90% svp so far.

Kiprusoff has 6, and 4 of those were within the first 6 games of the season. Ever since then he's been rock solid.

And that, my friend, is why Kiprusoff is the #1 goaltender today in the NHL hockey league.

You'd be better off if you stopped looking at history as a critically important part of today's players. It doesn't matter what they did years ago, it matters what they're doing now.

[Asher]

Tingkai's top 5 ;)

1) Martin Brodeur
2) Andrew Raycroft
3) Ed Belfour
4) Curtis Joseph
5) J-S Aubin

[Flubber]

Originally posted by notyoueither


No, that was the first goal. Turgeon banked it in off Roli's knee/thigh from the boards.

For the last goal at least the player's stick had to be on the 'right' side of the line.

:lol: NO I was remembering correctly. Its why I said the scorer was "almost" behind the net. but there were other ugly goals as well.


The interesting thing is that since Budai won that game it is looking like the Avs might use him tonight against the Flames. Theodore is looking like a more and more expensive backup

[cinch]

I don't know if he's made it back to Top 5 status, but Khabibulin has been looking great as of late. Unfortunately, he's surrounded by a sub-par, youth-filled defense corps.

Relatedly, I think--if not for his injury--Havlat would have proven to be the top skater in the NHL this year. Heck, he might even attain that honour *despite* that injury, if he can lead the Hawks into the playoffs. (Big 'if'!)

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Asher


I guess you and I are looking at different criteria. I really do not care what goaltenders have accomplished in the past, I care about what they can do today (thus the "today's" qualifier).

THtas the reason I see the criteria to be the goalie I could choose if I could choose any in the NHL for my team RIGHT NOW, assuming a current playoff team or contender and assuming no budget constraints and no concerns for next year

[Flubber]

If all one wants is stats, lets look at the top 10 on the two big goalie stats


RK Player Team GP SA GA W L OT Sv Sv% SO G A PIM TOI GAA
1 DOMINIK HASEK DET 26 552 48 17 5 3 504 .913 5 0 0 16 1,530:45 1.88
2 EVGENI NABOKOV SJS 17 455 33 10 6 0 422 .927 3 0 0 0 972:59 2.03
3 J GIGUERE ANA 32 854 64 23 3 5 790 .925 4 0 1 0 1,810:38 2.12
4 MIIKKA KIPRUSOFF CGY 29 850 62 16 11 2 788 .927 4 0 0 0 1,736:31 2.14
5 VESA TOSKALA SJS 18 485 38 14 4 0 447 .922 3 0 1 0 1,058:35 2.15
6 MARTIN BRODEUR NJD 31 855 68 18 11 2 787 .920 4 0 0 6 1,861:37 2.19
7 MARTY TURCO DAL 28 698 58 16 10 0 640 .917 3 0 2 6 1,575:53 2.21
8 CRISTOBAL HUET MTL 23 735 49 14 3 3 686 .933 2 0 0 0 1,289:46 2.28
9 CHRIS MASON NSH 19 590 43 12 4 2 547 .927 2 0 1 2 1,114:29 2.32
10 ROBERTO LUONGO VAN 33 863 77 17 14 1 786 .911 2


and

1 CRISTOBAL HUET MTL 23 .933 686 14 3 3 49 2.28 735 2 0 0 0 1,289:46
2 EVGENI NABOKOV SJS 17 .928 422 10 6 0 33 2.03 455 3 0 0 0 972:59
3 MIIKKA KIPRUSOFF CGY 29 .927 788 16 11 2 62 2.14 850 4 0 0 0 1,736:31
4 CHRIS MASON NSH 19 .927 547 12 4 2 43 2.32 590 2 0 1 2 1,114:29
5 J GIGUERE ANA 32 .925 790 23 3 5 64 2.12 854 4 0 1 0 1,810:38
6 VESA TOSKALA SJS 18 .922 447 14 4 0 38 2.15 485 3 0 1 0 1,058:35
7 MARTIN BRODEUR NJD 31 .920 787 18 11 2 68 2.19 855 4 0 0 6 1,861:37
8 TOMAS VOKOUN NSH 16 .920 447 11 4 1 39 2.48 486 1 0 0 4 941:36
9 MARTY TURCO DAL 28 .917 640 16 10 0 58 2.21 698 3 0 2 6 1,575:53
10 NIKOLAI KHABIBULIN CHI 21 .917 572 12 6 2 52 2.50 624 0 0 0 6 1,247:50

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Asher

You'd be better off if you stopped looking at history as a critically important part of today's players. It doesn't matter what they did years ago, it matters what they're doing now.

Asher I disagree with you on this. I believe some of the history matters. I believe that the fact that Brodeur has really stepped up in games that counted historically matters. It doesn't matter so much if his stats are crap but since they are not crap I would give him the benefit of the doubt.

So far my top 5 has only got to #2 as I am at

1. Kipper
2. Brodeur

so you can see I am between the two positions

I see the other contenders as Turco, Huet. Hasek, Khabibulin, Nabokev even Luongo but its tough to choose. All have been good for more than this season.

[Asher]

Yes, it matters if they can play in high-pressure games. But it doesn't matter if the team he was on won the cup, as long as he played stellar.

Kiprusoff, again, works in that category. 5 shutouts in 26 games in the Flames playoff run, ~0.930 sv% too with a 1.85 GAA.

Tingkai's emphasis on if they won the cup is what I consider troubling. That's much more a factor of teamplay than goalie play, which is what we're concerned with here.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher

I really do not care what goaltenders have accomplished in the past,

I'm mostly looking at this season's performance.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Asher
Kiprusoff, again, works in that category. 5 shutouts in 26 games in the Flames playoff run, ~0.930 sv% too with a 1.85 GAA.

Tingkai's emphasis on if they won the cup is what I consider troubling.

Are you ****ing kidding? No team can win the Cup without superb goaltending. That was the fact before the lockout and it is still a fact now. I can't believe I even have to write this basic fact.

If you going to judge the best goalie in the league today, you need to look at who has proven they can handle the pressure and win, Brodeur can do it and Hasek can do it.

More over, in the last 12 years, Brodeur has played at a consistently high level and continues to play at that level.

Brodeur has proven himself at every level of the game, something that Turco, Giguere, Heut and Kippersoft have not done.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
Tingkai's top 5 ;)

1) Martin Brodeur


The difference between you and me is that I take an unbaised look at the top goalies and pick the best one in the league, rather than the guy who is or was on my home team.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
The difference between you and me is that I take an unbaised look at the top goalies and pick the best one in the league, rather than the guy who is or was on my home team.
It has nothing to do with his team. He's the legit #1 goalie in the league, for reasons I have carefully explained.

Are you ****ing kidding? No team can win the Cup without superb goaltending. That was the fact before the lockout and it is still a fact now. I can't believe I even have to write this basic fact.

Um. Duh. No kidding?

You don't have to write that as a basic fact, because it was never contested. Please follow along.

If you going to judge the best goalie in the league today, you need to look at who has proven they can handle the pressure and win, Brodeur can do it and Hasek can do it.
Kiprusoff can also shown he can handle the pressure and win.

The fact is Kiprusoff hasn't been around as Brodeur and Hasek. You're favouring guys who are older and been around longer, but not necessarily the top goaltenders today. They're certainly up there, but they're getting old and that's why they're having the odd 70% svp awful night, while Kiprusoff is not.

I recognize Hasek and Brodeur have VERY good records and obviously have done a lot in bringing their team the cup, but there's so much more to analyzing a player's abilities than counting how many cups teams they were on won.

That's the difference between you and me. You'd build a team full of 40 year old players who've won cups, and I'd build a team based on things such as how good the players play today and their potential for tomorrow.

This is why I recognize, for instance, Phaneuf is a way better defenseman than McCabe is. :)

[Asher]

Just a quick question for you, Tingkai.

Last year, when "Kippersoft" won the Vezina, was he also an inferior goalie to Brodeur then?

If not, why is he worse this year?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher

It has nothing to do with his team. He's the legit #1 goalie in the league, for reasons I have carefully explained.



You haven't provided any decent reasons. All you do is cheer for your home team.

Kippersoft is not leading the league in wins, he's not first in GAA, he's not first in Sv%, he's not first in shutouts. He's never won a championship. He's part of the pack that are at the top, but not the best. Hell, he's not even the best of the pack. Giguere has more wins (GAA, Sv% and SO are a split)

At this point in the season, Hasek leads in GAA and shut out and is third in wins. Plus, Hasek has won championships (cup and Olympic gold). So if you're just looking at who is the best goalie today, then he is number one. The problem is that he tends to pout and is unreliable over the long run.

So then there is Marty. He's no.2 in shutouts, No. 2 in wins. More importantly, he always does better in the playoffs than in the regular season. He's won championships. He has proven he can handle the pressure. He's a champion. Giguere, Turco, Huet and Kippersoft can't say that.

So the top five goalies today are:

Brodeur
Hasek
Giguere
Kippersoft
Turco

(Huet and Nabokov are contenders, but I'd give the nod to Turco cause he's playing more games)

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
Just a quick question for you, Tingkai.

Last year, when "Kippersoft" won the Vezina, was he also an inferior goalie to Brodeur then?

If not, why is he worse this year?

He finished the regular season with the best stats, but when the chips were really down, he didn't do enough. Brodeur got his team through the first round. Kippersoft did not.

And Brodeur won the Vezina in 2004 when Kippersoft took the Flames to the finals. In that paricular year, Kippersoft was on fire.

What will happen in this playoff? Only a fool would bet against Brodeur. As for Kippersoft, who knows.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Kippersoft is not leading the league in wins, he's not first in GAA, he's not first in Sv%, he's not first in shutouts.
I love this. Brodeur and Kipper have the same amount of shutouts. You say this by saying "Kiprusoff is not first in shutouts", while "Brodeur is no. 2 in shutouts."

Yeah, you're unbiased alright. You've got an axe to grind with Calgary, and you're still recovering from your insight that first Kiprusoff would collapse in the playoffs as he's inexperienced, and then he was simply a "flash in the pan". You don't see enough hockey games to know what you're talking about here, buddy.

At this point in the season, Hasek leads in GAA and shut out and is third in wins. Plus, Hasek has won championships (cup and Olympic gold). So if you're just looking at who is the best goalie today, then he is number one. The problem is that he tends to pout and is unreliable over the long run.

So then there is Marty. He's no.2 in shutouts, No. 2 in wins. More importantly, he always does better in the playoffs than in the regular season. He's won championships.
I've discussed this at length above, which you are apparently incapable of reading.

Brodeur has had several nights with a savepercentage in the 70s. That is awful. He has consistency problems. He doesn't regularly steal games for his team the same way that Kiprusoff does.

You are muddying the water with stats that are misleading. Wins, for instance, is a function of team play, not goalies. GAA is correlated accordingly. sv% is the most important indicator of the goaltenders, where Brodeur is behind Kiprusoff by a good margin. But that's even not the only thing to look at -- up at the top the stats are close.

What we need to look at is which goaltenders are RELIABLE (not injury prone like Hasek) and CONSISTENT (Brodeur has not shown to be as consistent as Kiprusoff this year). So, while the stats are indeed close, the nod goes to Kiprusoff today.

He has proven he can handle the pressure. He's a champion.
Kiprusoff has proven he can handle the pressure. You're on drugs if you think game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals is NOT handling pressure. Kiprusoff was awesome in the playoffs. If you watched them, you might know this.

Brodeur
Hasek
Giguere
Kippersoft
Turco

(Huet and Nabokov are contenders, but I'd give the nod to Turco cause he's playing more games)
Honestly buddy, watch more hockey. It seems to me that you either have no idea that Hasek, Brodeur, and Giguere have consistency problems or you don't think consistency is a desirable attribute in a #1 goaltender. Either way, laughable.

This list you made would've been viable in 2003 or so. Which is, amusingly, probably the last time you regularly watched hockey.

[Asher]

He finished the regular season with the best stats, but when the chips were really down, he didn't do enough. Brodeur got his team through the first round. Kippersoft did not.
You are aware the Vezina is awarded based on regular season play, not playoffs? Yes?

And the playoff stats last year...you have to be kidding me if you're using that as an example of Brodeur's superiority.

Last year's playoffs:
Brodeur: 9GP, 2.25 GAA .923 svp
Kiprusoff: 7GP, 2.24 GAA .921 svp

Originally posted by Tingkai
And Brodeur won the Vezina in 2004 when Kippersoft took the Flames to the finals. In that paricular year, Kippersoft was on fire.
Kiprusoff only played the last half of the year. :rolleyes:

You're so out of your league here, Tingkai. Kiprusoff was "on fire" through 2003-2004, 2005-2006, and now 2006-2007. At what point does he stop being "on fire" when you concede that he's an excellent goaltender?

I'll also note in 2004, Brodeur failed his team by your measure. ;) Didn't even make it past 5 games! What a loser who can't handle the pressure... :rolleyes:

[Flubber]

On my criteria as the goalie I'd like to have on my team right now , today I wouldn't rank Hasek up there. ON any given game maybe but as the goalie to take me through the rest of the season, I would rank 5 guys ahead of him. The question about Hasek quite frankly is durability-- I know ANYONE can get injured but when I look at his history, I question whther he will last through the season and playoffs

[Flubber]

On the Kipper/Brodeur thing, to me it is very close between the two. But it comes down tothis if I could trade Kipper for any goalie in the league , even-up, would I? My answer is no.

While Asher goes over the top with rhetoric sometimes , the fact is that Kipper has been stellar. At his worst he has been very good.

OH and looking at the last twoplayoff runs. Kipper was never CLOSE to being a reason for any defeats. He did his job and never folded. Frankly he holds up well to pressure.

FRankly the only reason I rank Kipper ahead of Brodeur is the feeling that Brodeur is just a tiny bit past his prime.

On current performance. Huet has to be up there. That save % is awesome. I have mixed feelings on whether or not I should consider that he plays a bit less than most of the workhorse goalies

[Tingkai]

Oh, this is a classic. You're saying Brodeur is over the hill even though he's no 2 in wins, No. 2 for shutout, a GAA of 2.19 and a Sav % of .920. Yeah awful stats. :lol:

Meanwhile, the two of you are trying to flob the crazy idea that the guy who went to the finals and lost, is better than the guy who went to the final and won. Yeah, right. :lol:


And if Kippersoft is so great, how come Giguere has more wins and a better GAA. Or Turco, again, more wins than Kippersoft and a better GAA. Out of four potential stats, Giguere and Turco are two better than Kippersofts one (Sv%.

So sorry folks, Kippersoft is maybe the fourth best goalie these days and that's being charitable. He's really fifth behind Giguere and Turco.

Oh, and Huet ain't anywhere near the top five.

[Asher]

You really have not watched much hockey recently, have you?

This is truly incredible, the pathetic way you spin everything here. Why do you have such an axe to grind against the Flames? It's delusional.

Are you that scared? You seem to be terrified that the teams from outwest are overshadowing your "historic" Leafs and you're in some kind of frenzied damage control.

I watch TONS of hockey as I subscribe to NHL Centre Ice, I have seen these goalies through countless games recently. I've seen some steal games, others lose games for people. I've seen the teams that play infront of them, the shot qualities against them, and the kind of saves they can make to keep a team in the game.

Brodeur is certainly a top goalie, but he's not THE top goalie. Not today, not this season. Sorry bud. Watch hockey sometime.

Also, read what is being said. Nobody has called Brodeur over the hill, nor have they called him "awful". Quite the opposite, in fact I ranked him pretty high in my list... :rolleyes: W and GAA are not the best indicators of a goalies play. Giguere's numbers in particular -- have you seen Anaheim play? An average goalie would get similar numbers with that kind of defense corps and team play.

[Asher]

And I find it hilarious that you talk about handling the pressure, etc. Did you watch the playoffs last year?

Byzgalov's the reason the Ducks beat the Flames and advanced to the next round. Giguere sucked ass.

This is the "consistency" part of the problem I've mentioned...

[Tingkai]

No, the funniest thing ever in any hockey thread has to be you going : "duh, I don't know why Tingkai's making such a big deal out of Brodeur winning three Stanley Cup. Dat don't mean he a good goalie."

****ing classic.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Asher]

Yeah, cause when I said he was stellar that means he's not a good goalie...

[Asher]

The longest losing streak for the Leafs was 10 games back in 67. Think about it.
:lol:

Once a loser.... ;)

Toronto has never been consistent, which is why they have a pathetically small number of championships compared to other old teams, like the Habs.

[Flubber]

Tingkai-- do you have reading comprehension problems? I ranked Brodeur as the number two goalie in a close decision for me. Broduer of a few years ago would have been #1 and he might yet again be the best around.

OH and GAA and wins are very much linked to team performance.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Meanwhile, the two of you are trying to flob the crazy idea that the guy who went to the finals and lost, is better than the guy who went to the final and won. Yeah, right. :lol:



So if winning the finals is your indicator why aren't you mentiong Cam Ward as the best?

Also Giguere? As Asher points out, he loses points for getting pulled from a playoff series. I know Bryzgalov played exceptionally well but anyone in contention for best around has to at a minimum be the go-to guy for their team.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Tingkai



So the top five goalies today are:

Brodeur
Hasek
Giguere
Kippersoft
Turco

(Huet and Nabokov are contenders, but I'd give the nod to Turco cause he's playing more games)


Lets talke a look at your rankings. Brodeur as #1, I can't really quibble with . .. as I said repeatedly its close between he and Kipper for me.


Hasek?? Great history as a goalie and putting up some impressive numbers in wins, GAA and shutouts. While a lot of that is him of course, the fact that his sv% is not in the top 10 tells the rest-- he has a very good team in front of him. Also I question his durability. ASk yourself this . . . would you trade Kipper for Hasek if the contracts amounts were equal and theterm was just for the rest of this season. I wouldn't .


Giguere-- see above-- AS recently as last year, he wasn't their go-to guy. I can't value that and given how much you emphasize winning in the playoffs, I don't see how you can either

Turco?? Sorry-- I like him in the regularv season but on reflection, look at these playoff numbers

Career Playoff Stats
Season Team GP MIN W L GA SA SO GA Avg SV %
2005-2006 Stars 5 319 1 4 18 136 0 3.39 .868
2003-2004 Stars 5 325 1 4 18 119 0 3.32 .849
2002-2003 Stars 12 798 6 6 25 310 0 1.88 .919
2000-2001 Stars 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.00 .000

NHL Totals: 22 1,442 8 14 61 565 0 2.54 .892


THATS 8 wins 14 losses and stoppin less than 90% of pucks in the playoffs. I have a tough time wanting to hitch my horse to that.

I'll take Huet's limited playoff experience over that

Huet

Career Playoff Stats
Season Team GP MIN W L GA SA SO GA Avg SV %
2005-2006 Canadiens 6 385 2 4 15 212 0 2.33 .929

NHL Totals: 6 385 2 4 15 212 0 2.33 .929

[Asher]

I agree, Flubber.

Tingkai's brash opinions and rankings don't even jive with his own laughable criteria. He's crazy.

[Flubber]

Giguere

Career Playoff Stats
Season Team GP MIN W L GA SA SO GA Avg SV %
2005-2006 Ducks 6 318 3 3 18 132 0 3.40 .864
2002-2003 Ducks 21 1,407 15 6 38 697 5 1.62 .945

NHL Totals: 27 1,725 18 9 56 829 5 1.95 .932

These numbers show one fabulous playoff run (.945 is exceptional) and one where he could not be counted upon.`There is no goalie in the NHL right now playing regularly and stopping pucks at an .864 clip


Lets throw Kippers playoff number in the mix

Career Playoff Stats
Season Team GP MIN W L GA SA SO GA Avg SV %
2005-2006 Flames 7 427 3 4 16 202 0 2.24 .921
2003-2004 Flames 26 1,655 15 11 51 710 5 1.85 .928
2001-2002 Sharks 1 7 0 0 0 2 0 0.00 1.000
2000-2001 Sharks 3 149 1 1 5 79 0 2.01 .937

NHL Totals: 37 2,240 19 16 72 993 5 1.93 .928

Lets see . . . his career regular season average is .920 (only 5 goalies are exceeding that this season) and then in the playoffs his WORST year was a .921. So the guy is no choker thats for sure


Hasek

Career Playoff Stats
Season Team GP MIN W L GA SA SO GA Avg SV %
2001-2002 Red Wings 23 1,454 16 7 45 562 6 1.86 .920
2000-2001 Sabres 13 833 7 6 29 347 1 2.09 .916
1999-2000 Sabres 5 301 1 4 12 147 0 2.39 .918
1998-1999 Sabres 19 1,217 13 6 36 587 2 1.77 .939
1997-1998 Sabres 15 947 10 5 32 514 1 2.03 .938
1996-1997 Sabres 3 153 1 1 5 68 0 1.96 .926
1994-1995 Sabres 5 309 1 4 18 131 0 3.49 .863
1993-1994 Sabres 7 483 3 4 13 261 2 1.61 .950
1992-1993 Sabres 1 44 1 0 1 24 0 1.34 .958
1991-1992 Blackhawks 3 157 0 2 8 70 0 3.05 .886
1990-1991 Blackhawks 3 68 0 0 3 39 0 2.62 .923

NHL Totals: 97 5,971 53 39 202 2,750 12 2.03 .926



He is worse than Kipper on Sv% and GAA but some of his teams were not that great. Frankly I think these are great numbers-- I just question his durability and desire . Note also that his last playoff game was in 2002.


I also looked at the number of a bunch of others and guess what, the people we have been talking about are the best out there. The more I look at it the "best"
right now on the criteria I am using-- ie the goalie I would most want for my playoff contending team-- the best are clearly Brodeur, Hasek* and Kipper. Granted Kipper doesn't have a cup but he has been so eeirily consistent.

The others?

Turco-- a playoff flop
Giguere- one amazing playoff, one flop
Huet-- aspiring to greatness but has to win at least one playoff series to be taken seriously

Nabokov-- .912 career % is lower than most-- sat last year's playoffs

Vokoun?-- good numbers overall but one losing playoff appearance wherwe he was stellar-- He's like Huet with more years under his belt but slightly worse stats

Miller-- PLayoff and regular season he stops slightly less than 91% of pucks his way- that just doesn't compete with the top 3.

Khabiblin, Toskala?, Mason:D ?, Rolosen, Luongo?


After all that and after looking at a fair number of stats and reconsidering everything, my top 5 would be

1. Kipper-- consistency personified
2. Brodeur-- dead-heatish but I am not appointing joint no. 1s
3. Huet-- largely on this season
4. Giguere-- I remember his great year and forgive one bad playoff stint
5. Hasek* just casue I can't leave him out. He would be #3 except that I don't trust him to be there when the team needs him. I just don't believe a GM would give up Huet or Giguere for him and frankly I have my doubts that the GMs with the next 5 or 6 best goalies would either ( but some of that is thoughts of next year which I am trying to discount)

[Asher]

Hey Flubber, any comments on Telqvist?

You have to be pretty good to shut down the Ducks for 50 minutes (and counting).

[Asher]

Telqvist shuts out Anaheim.

Again, Tyson Nash for Telqvist was a fleecing. ;)

[Tingkai]

Fleecing. :lol: You really don't get it do ya.

I'd explain it to you, but it is the holiday season so I'm rather busy. I'll explain it after Christmas.

[Asher]

What I do get is nobody expects Tyson Nash to ever make the big leagues again, and Telqvist has comparable stats to Raycroft right now. ;)

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Asher
Hey Flubber, any comments on Telqvist?

You have to be pretty good to shut down the Ducks for 50 minutes (and counting).

Yup great night for him-- He's capable of a good night

But with that he is UP to an .899 save percentage. Wow such excellence!!


Asher what you don't understand is that looking at the 3 goalies they had, I wouldn't have blamed them if they had dumped Telqvist or Aubin for nothing just to rid themselves of the salary. Neither has shown themselves to be a superior goaltender although either can have a good night.

I'm sure you saw Telqvist versus the Flames. "Awful" was the most used adjective. IN any event, I am done on that topic. Neither of the players involved are significant to warrant ANY more attention from me

[Asher]

Originally posted by Flubber
Yup great night for him-- He's capable of a good night

But with that he is UP to an .899 save percentage. Wow such excellence!!
Raycroft is sitting pretty has .893 save perventage.
Aubin is at an .882 save percentage.

;)

I understand that Leafs had 3 goalies and had to get rid of one. My point was with so many teams lacking goaltenders even of Telqvist's quality (LA, I'm looking at you), they could've scored a much better deal than frickin' Tyson Nash.

[Sava]

When evaluating goaltenders, I think we need to look beyond just individual numbers and focus at a more important question. What goaltender could best keep a pathetic franchise such as Calgary afloat?

I think Kiprusoff has proven that he is up to this task. Without him Calgary would be nothing. None of these other goaltenders could keep Calgary's proverbial head above water. I'm not sure where these other goaltenders would fall in line, but Kipper is definitely the best in the league right now.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Sava
When evaluating goaltenders, I think we need to look beyond just individual numbers and focus at a more important question. What goaltender could best keep a pathetic franchise such as Calgary afloat?

I think Kiprusoff has proven that he is up to this task. Without him Calgary would be nothing. None of these other goaltenders could keep Calgary's proverbial head above water. I'm not sure where these other goaltenders would fall in line, but Kipper is definitely the best in the league right now.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Merry Christmas to you too Sava

[Asher]

While Sava isn't quite diplomatic, he makes a good point.

Kiprusoff is the MVP in Calgary and a huge reason they're as successful as they are. Look at Calgary's record before and after Kiprusoff.

[Tingkai]

Kippersoft is sure playing consistently these days, consistently bad. Six games in a row with a +3.00 GAA.

Meanwhile, the old guys keep getting the job done. Brodeur is third for GAA, number 2 in wins, fifth in Sv% and tied for first with that other geezer, Hasek, for SOs.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Flubber
Season Team GP MIN W L GA SA SO GA Avg SV %
2001-2002 Sharks 1 7 0 0 0 2 0 0.00 1.000



:unworthy:
:lol: :lol:


Originally posted by Flubber
1. Kipper-- consistency personified
2. Brodeur-- dead-heatish but I am not appointing joint no. 1s
3. Huet-- largely on this season
4. Giguere-- I remember his great year and forgive one bad playoff stint
5. Hasek* just casue I can't leave him out. He would be #3 except that I don't trust him to be there when the team needs him. I just don't believe a GM would give up Huet or Giguere for him and frankly I have my doubts that the GMs with the next 5 or 6 best goalies would either ( but some of that is thoughts of next year which I am trying to discount)

Dead heat between Kippersoft and the great Brodeur? Only if you ignore how great Brodeur has been playing this year and his stellar playoff record, one that is far superior to Kippersoft on every level.

As for Giguere, he was injured last year and he played injured in the playoffs. So those stats do not reflect his true ability.

Kippersoft is nowhere close to the greatness of Brodeur.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
Telqvist shuts out Anaheim.

Again, Tyson Nash for Telqvist was a fleecing. ;)


The way you talk, you would trade Iginila for Tellqvist. :lol:

Fact is that Tellqvist had lots of chances to prove himself in Toronto, but was never able to play consistently. Last year, he was 3.13 GAA and .895. Aubin was 2.22 GAA and .924.

Of course, you would keep Tellqvist over Aubin, which would make you perfect for the Flames organization, where they have problems recognizing great goalies.

Only the Flames would give away a goalie like Giguere for a just draft choice. Talk about a fleecing. That's got to be one of the classic dumbest trades ever.
:lol:

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Kippersoft is sure playing consistently these days, consistently bad. Six games in a row with a +3.00 GAA.
Yeah, on his bad days his GAA edges above 3.

On Brodeur's bad days he hits what, 74% svp and 7/8 GAA. Those bad days occur more often, too.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai

The way you talk, you would trade Iginila for Tellqvist. :lol:

Fact is that Tellqvist had lots of chances to prove himself in Toronto, but was never able to play consistently. Last year, he was 3.13 GAA and .895. Aubin was 2.22 GAA and .924.

Of course, you would keep Tellqvist over Aubin, which would make you perfect for the Flames organization, where they have problems recognizing great goalies.
Yeah, look at Sutter's track record.

Getting rid of winners like Turek, Sauve, and Boucher for losers like Kiprusoff.

Meanwhile, the Leafs are well known for picking up great goaltenders. Look at Aubin and Raycroft, they're a regular Toskala/Nabokov duo! They even gave away a gem like Rask for the privilege of Raycroft, who has been consistently asstastic <b>all season</b>, and is actually getting worse.

I would never trade Iginla for Telqvist. I'm just saying the Leafs really just gave him away for free, which is a fleecing. They could have gotten more, like even a fourth line forward...

PS: The Leland Irving kid the Flames chose in the 2006 draft continues to show how they have no eye for goaltenders. Top goaltender in the WHL with a 94% svp and 1.55 GAA through 23 games (19-3-1 record).

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher

Yeah, on his bad days his GAA edges above 3.

On Brodeur's bad days he hits what, 74% svp and 7/8 GAA. Those bad days occur more often, too.

:lol: dude, only a fool would try to claim Brodeur is a crap goalie.

Look at Broduer's stats: 20 wins, 2.15 GAA, 0.923 SA%, 5 SO. Those are the numbers of a great goalie.

The difference between great goalies like Brodeur and guys like Kippersoft, is that Brodeur bounces back from bad games, usually with a great game (In October, he had two shutouts after two bad games).

Guys like Kippersoft just get stuck in a rut, playing poorly game after game.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher

They even gave away a gem like Rask for the privilege of Raycroft.



At least the Leafs got a goalie for the kid. The Flames basically got nothing Giguere. Calgary gave away a top-five goalie for nada.

The Leafs, meanwhile, needed a goalie this season, so had to give up a prospect, but the Leafs have Pogge so it was not much of a sacrifice to get Raycroft.

Mind you, I'm not happy with the way Raycroft is playing. He's needs to step up his play massively to reach the standards set by the great Leaf goalies like Bower, Plante, Palmateer, Potvin, Cujo, and Belfour.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Kippersoft is nowhere close to the greatness of Brodeur.


On a historical basis . . .i.e. if both careers ended today and we had to assess them on a best of all-time list . . . . I agree. Kipper has not been around anywhere near long enough to have the long pedigree of a Brodeur.


But I was assessing which I would want as my goalie if it were just to finish this season with my playoff contender team (if you look longer term, the younger golaie would have more of an edge). I chose Kipper. AS of today I still do. However, as I said before it was very very very close for me so if Brodeur were to outplay Kipper for the next few weeks I could easily flip my choices.

It can be that fickle if the criteria is the top goalie RIGHT NOW.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
:lol: dude, only a fool would try to claim Brodeur is a crap goalie.
This is the second time you tried this strawman. I said Brodeur is "stellar" -- "stellar" does not mean "crap".

The difference between great goalies like Brodeur and guys like Kippersoft, is that Brodeur bounces back from bad games, usually with a great game (In October, he had two shutouts after two bad games).

Guys like Kippersoft just get stuck in a rut, playing poorly game after game.
You clearly don't watch enough hockey. This is the first "rut" I've ever seen Kiprusoff in.

Actually, in 03-04 and 05-06, if you looked at the game logs, Kiprusoff had insane statistics after a bad game. If you watched hockey, you would know this. Commentators frequently commend Kiprusoff's ability to bounce back from a bad goal or a bad game. In fact, they just talked about it again on Saturday night if you actually, again, watched hockey...

That's what makes the arguments with you so fun. They're nothing but strawmen and ignorance.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
At least the Leafs got a goalie for the kid. The Flames basically got nothing Giguere. Calgary gave away a top-five goalie for nada.
To be fair, you also need to note that we traded Trevor Kidd to get Giguere in the first place.

The Flames management was awful in the late 90s. I've frequently ranted about this, so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. I strongly recommend you live in the NOW, where the Leafs are awful, the Leafs goaltending is awful, the Leafs defense is awful, and it's been 40 years since you won a cup. Also, Calgary is known for spectacular goaltending right now while Toronto is known for being an easy way to inflate your points.

The Leafs, meanwhile, needed a goalie this season, so had to give up a prospect, but the Leafs have Pogge so it was not much of a sacrifice to get Raycroft.

It was a retarded trade, though. Most people said so outside of Toronto when it happened, while the Toronto press praised how great Raycroft was in his rookie season, everyone else rolled on the floor laughing 'cause Raycroft can't handle the pressures of being a #1 goalie in the NHL.

Look at his stats. It's a remarkably downward trend in stats since the start of the season. That takes talent, picking a goalie like that for one of the top goalie prospects in the game.

[Asher]

For what it's worth, if Calgary held on to Giguere we'd likely not have Kiprusoff. And I'd take Kiprusoff over Giguere any day, as would pretty much anyone but you.

[Asher]

Another stellar night for goaltending in Toronto.

If only they had another goalie they could call on to shake things up, since their 2 main goalies are AHL-calibre. :(

[Tingkai]

I've watched more hockey than you've ever seen, and I still watch hockey so spare us that little strawman.

Kippersoft does not have "insane numbers" after a bad game.

As for the rut, get used to it.

You guys have overrated Kippersoft.

Broduer is the best goalie in the league, the goalie who consistently steals games for his team and the goalie who delivers when the chips are done.

[Drake Tungsten]

Why the hell is a guy from Hong Kong trying to lecture a Canadian on hockey?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Kippersoft does not have "insane numbers" after a bad game.

As for the rut, get used to it.
:lol:

You've set yourself up so easily to get dismissed with comments like this. Take 2-3 minutes to look at the game logs and educate yourself.

From 03-04:

Nov 27: 5.78 GAA, .750 svp
Following 4 games were all 1.00 GAA, > .950 svp

Dec 9th: 2.00 GAA, .895 svp
Following game a shutout, followed by 4 games > 0.940 svp

Mar 5th: 5.00 GAA, .853 svp
Following games 1.00 GAA, ~.960 svp

Apr 7th: 5.06 GAA, .773 svp
Following game 1.01 GAA, .962 svp

etc

Looks to me you are way off, as usual. Kiprusoff is certainly very able to bounce back from a bad game, as well as a bad goal. It's one of his best tendencies and something that really stands out about him. If you look at his history, it's VERY obvious to be true.

You're nothing but a Leafs homer that knows nothing outside of the Kingdom of TO, and it shows on here. So do us all a favor and just keep telling us about McCabe's Norris candidacy and stop talkin' about anything else.

It's very clear you haven't watched much NHL hockey the past couple years.

You also dismissed Kiprusoff as a goalie that couldn't handle himself in the playoffs compared to goaltenders like Brodeur (prior to the playoff run), then you dismissed him as a flash in the pan (prior to winning the Vezina the following season), and now you're dismissing him on grounds that are clearly absurd (that he's prone to ruts and can't bounce back from a bad game?). You were way off to begin with.

So man up and recognize you've either no eye for goaltenders or you don't watch non-Leafs hockey games. I'm willing to bet both are true.

Brodeur's a damn fine goalie, but he's not the best in the league anymore. It's fine that you don't believe me, but just notice who won the Vezina trophy last year: hint, it wasn't Brodeur. The fact that you won't rank a Vezina winner in your top 5 for goaltenders is very telling...

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher

Most people said so outside of Toronto when it happened, while the Toronto press praised how great Raycroft was in his rookie season, everyone else rolled on the floor laughing 'cause Raycroft can't handle the pressures of being a #1 goalie in the NHL.


Bullsh1t. Post some links of respected hockey writers (i.e. not the blogger) who said the deal was bad.

The Leaf's needed a no.1 goalie this season. Given what was on the market, Raycroft was the best out there. Luongo would have been nice, but Florida would not have taken Rusk for him. Khalibulin's salary was too expensive. Legace was out there, but he's never been a no. 1 goalie.

Given the choices, the Raycroft deal was the best available.

And if he obviously can handle the pressure of being the #1 goalie because he was the Bruins' #1 goalie in his rookie year. There is no downward trend in his stats. His numbers are up and down. That's part of the problem. The other being the Leaf injuries which have crippled the team throughout the season.


In all fairness to Raycroft, I don't think any goalie could get decent stats on a team with so many injuries. Not even your idol could handle the pressure Raycrofts been under.

[Tingkai]

You've set yourself up so easily to get dismissed with comments like this. Take 2-3 minutes to look at the game logs and educate yourself.

From 2005-06

Kippersoft:
Oct. 9 7.50 0.861
Oct 10 7.01 .829
Oct. 13 2.81 .864

Yup, really bouncing back there eh.

Dec. 19 5.04 .844
Dec. 21 4.03 .765
Dec. 23 4.65 .865

And

Mar 12 3.00 .880
Mar 13 3.00 .897
Mar 16 2.86 .893

Or how about this season:

Dec. 26 3.00 .893
Dec. 27 5.74 .750
Dec. 29 4.00 .889

Do notice the trend. Do notice how he doesn't bounce back, but instead goes on three game slumps.

The problem with you is even if you watch the game, you don't seem to understand what is happening. Instead, you just repeat what the commentators say. You can't see the whole picture.

And when you're proven wrong, you routinely claim people are saying or doing things that they are not. You claim I don't watch hockey even though you have no idea about how much hockey I watch. You claim that I think McCabe should win the Norris, when I have never said that. You claim that I am a Leafs homer, in a thread where I have championed goalies from other teams, unlike you. You claim that I said Kippersoft was a flash in the pan when I never said that.

Enough with the bullsh!t

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Why the hell is a guy from Hong Kong trying to lecture a Canadian on hockey?

And yet another example of your brilliant stupidity.

You've been around Poly long enough to know that I'm a Canadian, and Asher lives in Toronto. If you read these hockey theads on a regular basis you would know that not only am I a hockey fan, I also play hockey.

And why are you injecting your idiocy in a thread about a sport of which are ignorant.

Now if you don't have any more stupid comments to make, why don't you leave this thread to the people who know hockey.

[Tingkai]

Anyways, I've got to go to a poker game. With the communication problems in Asia caused by that quake off Taiwan, I'll be offline for a couple of days. I can only access the Internet these day at work through an intranet line that links to the Internet through Paris.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
You've set yourself up so easily to get dismissed with comments like this. Take 2-3 minutes to look at the game logs and educate yourself.

From 2005-06

Kippersoft:
Oct. 9 7.50 0.861
Oct 10 7.01 .829
Oct. 13 2.81 .864

He always starts slow each year.

Yup, really bouncing back there eh.

Dec. 19 5.04 .844
Dec. 21 4.03 .765
Dec. 23 4.65 .865
Ah yeah, I remember those days. The injury-deleted blueline and retarded play of the d-men infront of him. A rare blip.

And

Mar 12 3.00 .880
Mar 13 3.00 .897
Mar 16 2.86 .893
You much be pretty desperate if you think these numbers constitute a slump. :rolleyes:

Or how about this season:

Dec. 26 3.00 .893
Dec. 27 5.74 .750
Dec. 29 4.00 .889

Do notice the trend. Do notice how he doesn't bounce back, but instead goes on three game slumps.
If you actually watched the game, you'd be hard pressed to say Kiprusoff is in a slump. He was actually very good last game in particular with lots of very, very good saves. The team infront of him stopped playing in the last 5 minutes with some really hilarious defensive lapses that trashed his stats, for example.

You claim I don't watch hockey even though you have no idea about how much hockey I watch.
Yes, I do. It's quite clear that you VERY rarely watch Kiprusoff play, which explains why you're so out to lunch about his play.

You claim that I think McCabe should win the Norris, when I have never said that.
That was a joke on my part, since you like McCabe so much and value offensive numbers so much...

You claim that I said Kippersoft was a flash in the pan when I never said that.

Enough with the bullsh!t
You sure as hell did. You even defended that recently before NOW denying you ever said it. Others on here surely will recall it as well, as it was a ridiculous comment then as it is now.

You're such a liar...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Bullsh1t. Post some links of respected hockey writers (i.e. not the blogger) who said the deal was bad.
James Mirtle's take on it here: http://mirtle.blogspot.com/2006/07/uncalculated-riskwhy-raycrofts-deal.html

took me all of 2 seconds to google and find lots of articles calling the trade bad. Mirtle even goes on to speculate it could cost JFJ his job.

The Leaf's needed a no.1 goalie this season. Given what was on the market, Raycroft was the best out there.
Yeah, you're right. If only there were goaltenders like Biron that could be acquired.

Luongo would have been nice, but Florida would not have taken Rusk for him.
His name is Rask, not Rusk.

Khalibulin's salary was too expensive. Legace was out there, but he's never been a no. 1 goalie.

Given the choices, the Raycroft deal was the best available.
Raycroft was the worst NHL starting goalie last season. Best deal available?

Legace had a .915 save percentage and a 37-8-3 record last season. Raycroft was the NHL's worst starting goaltender. Yeah, best deal available...

There is no downward trend in his stats. His numbers are up and down. That's part of the problem. The other being the Leaf injuries which have crippled the team throughout the season.
I don't see you making excuses for Kiprusoff when during his "slump" 3 of the 6 d-men infront of him were from the AHL.

In all fairness to Raycroft, I don't think any goalie could get decent stats on a team with so many injuries. Not even your idol could handle the pressure Raycrofts been under.
Again, the Flames have had tons of injuries as well. 6 regulars have been out as recently as last week, including half of our defense and our best two defensive forwards. Kiprusoff still played well in general, but you -- being a Leafs homer -- had no idea about the situation.

[Drake Tungsten]

If you read these hockey theads on a regular basis

Why would I do that? I don't care about hockey. Don't think I've ever watched an entire game of the sport.

And why are you injecting your idiocy in a thread about a sport of which are ignorant.

I could ask the same about you. I'm admittedly ignorant on the sport. However, I do know enough to know that someone who is...

A. From Hong Kong

and

B. A Leafs fan

... is just as ignorant about hockey as I am. Hence the surprise on my part that you would even try to argue with Asher, who lives in Canada and certainly knows what he is talking about.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Hence the surprise on my part that you would even try to argue with Asher, who lives in Canada and certainly knows what he is talking about.

How can you tell if you don't know the sport?

Oh, and basing an opinion on someone working overseas doesn't seem too bright. How could someone living in Japan know anything about American college football? ;)

[Drake Tungsten]

How can you tell if you don't know the sport?

Asher is a very well-informed individual, generally. If you disagreed with him, I might take it seriously given that you're also a Canadian, but I see no reason to think a person in Asia is better informed about hockey than Asher...

Oh, and basing an opinion on someone working overseas doesn't seem too bright. How could someone living in Japan know anything about American college football?

I don't live in Japan anymore. While I lived in Japan, however, I didn't have much of an idea of what was going on in college football. It's nearly impossible to stay informed on a sport when you can't watch the games.

[Zopperoni]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
It's nearly impossible to stay informed on a sport when you can't watch the games.
Mmm, I did pretty well in fantasy football and pick 'ems without actually watching a game. I will admit that it helps to actually watch a game, and it's more fun. NFL is easier as well since there are fewer games...

[Drake Tungsten]

It's also easier to tell how teams are playing based just on the stats than it is to tell how individual players are performing.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
How can you tell if you don't know the sport?

Asher is a very well-informed individual, generally. If you disagreed with him, I might take it seriously given that you're also a Canadian, but I see no reason to think a person in Asia is better informed about hockey than Asher...

You can watch NHL games and highlights over the internet. Tingkai has also mentioned ex-pat bars where taped or satellite games are shown. I think he's pretty serious about hockey if he is managing to find a way to play the game while in Hong Kong, so I can't discount the possibility that he is watching games.

And I do disagree with Asher about a lot of stuff in this thread, but I choose not to waste my time. Both he and Tingkai are prone to adopt... less than well considered positions... for the sake of slagging off each others teams.

[Drake Tungsten]

Both he and Tingkai are prone to adopt... less than well considered positions... for the sake of slagging off each others teams.

I can see Tingkai doing this, but Asher? Come on...

[joncha]

:lol:

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
And I do disagree with Asher about a lot of stuff in this thread, but I choose not to waste my time.
Thank God.

I felt blessed no one had mentioned "Roloson" in this thread so far. It would kill me to see him ranked in the top 5 from anyone's list.

[Tingkai]

Aw, ain't that cute. Asher has got himself a puck bunny. :lol:

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
James Mirtle's take on it here: http://mirtle.blogspot.com/2006/07/uncalculated-riskwhy-raycrofts-deal.html


The guy is not a respected hockey writer. He's just a blogger who from the sounds of it is nothing more than an editorial assistant at the Globe, a job typically done by kids fresh out of J-school.

The guy is arguing that the Leafs should have gone with Ed Belfour, Mike Dunham, Brian Boucher or Martin Prusek. That type of thinking undermines his credibility.

Originally posted by Asher
His name is Rask, not Rusk.


What? Have you've become a spelling nazi now too?

Originally posted by Asher

Legace had a .915 save percentage and a 37-8-3 record last season. Raycroft was the NHL's worst starting goaltender. Yeah, best deal available...


Legace has always been a backup goalie, not the number one goalie. There were a lot of doubts about whether he could handle the workload of being a #1 goalie.

Originally posted by Asher
I don't see you making excuses for Kiprusoff when during his "slump" 3 of the 6 d-men infront of him were from the AHL.


Right, this from a guy who was ranting about the Leaf's dmen when the blueline corp was cut by injuries and minor leaguers were filling in. So with the Leafs, you ignore the injuries, but with your Flames...

What a typical homer.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
The guy is not a respected hockey writer. He's just a blogger who from the sounds of it is nothing more than an editorial assistant at the Globe, a job typically done by kids fresh out of J-school.
So a hockey columnist who has written for The Hockey News, The Globe and Mail, The National Post, and other magazines (as well as an award-winning hockey blog) is not a respected hockey writer?

You're hilarious...

What? Have you've become a spelling nazi now too?
To me your constant inability to spell "new" goaltenders names lends credibility to the theory that you don't pay much attention to today's NHL. Particularly very simple names like "Rask".

Right, this from a guy who was ranting about the Leaf's dmen when the blueline corp was cut by injuries and minor leaguers were filling in. So with the Leafs, you ignore the injuries, but with your Flames...

What a typical homer.
Err...actually I was saying lots of your minor leaguers were better than your "NHL" d-men.

The Leafs and Edmonton are both in a lot of trouble defensively, the difference is Edmonton's defense is cheap and Toronto's is the most expensive(?) in the NHL. The fact that you sometimes have injuries doesn't matter, even when your lineup is full of NHLers it doesn't change anything -- thus my rant.

[Asher]

Regarding Brodeur vs Kiprusoff...another thing came to mind last night when Kiprusoff was only scored on via a PP and a 5-3.

The Devils are the least penalized team in the league, meaning Brodeur has to see very little powerplays compared to other goaltenders. Don't you think it's reasonable this helps him a bit in the stat department?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
So a hockey columnist who has written for The Hockey News, The Globe and Mail, The National Post, and other magazines (as well as an award-winning hockey blog) is not a respected hockey writer?


He's not a hockey columnist, he's a "desk staffer" which probably means he sits a computer and puts the agate pages together, something anyone could do. If he was a columnist, reporter or editor then he would say so.

I've written about a lot of topics for a lot of newspapers. That doesn't make me an expert about every story I've written.

Put it this way, you have more cred than he does. Anyone who suggests that the Leafs shoudl have picked up Mike Dunham, Brian Boucher and Martin Prusek as a starting goalie is a fool.

Originally posted by Asher
To me your constant inability to spell "new" goaltenders names

One spelling error = constant inability? Man, you've really run out of arguments if you have to resort to this kind of troll. :LOL:

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
He's not a hockey columnist, he's a "desk staffer" which probably means he sits a computer and puts the agate pages together, something anyone could do. If he was a columnist, reporter or editor then he would say so.
Again...he's written for many reputable hockey magazines and he has one of the most popular hockey blogs around. You may downplay the importance of people like him, but he gets read more regularly than similar bufoons like Mike Brophy (who is a certifiably douche, despite having lots of oldschool journalistic "cred").

This is a very pathetic way to dismiss a sound argument, by the way...you seem to think that everyone in the world thought the Raycroft deal was good, while it VERY MUCH was not.

One spelling error = constant inability? Man, you've really run out of arguments if you have to resort to this kind of troll. :LOL:
No, you constantly called Kiprusoff "Kippersof" until recently, when you decided to downplay this as a pun with "Kippersoft". I think it's very obvious given your locale that you are not up to speed on the latest in the NHL as someone who lives and breathes this stuff in a hockey culture, including someone who can see every single NHL game on television each night.

[notyoueither]

Kippersoft

Can't you recognise a dig?

[Tingkai]

Asher: I can't believe you're parroting your puck bunny's yapping. Repeating Drake's troll doesn't make you look good.

I expect better from you.:doitnow!:

[Drake Tungsten]

Asher and I aren't trolls; we didn't even make the list. You and NYE, OTOH... :q:

[Tingkai]

Of course you're not a troll. You're just a puck bunny. :lol:

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Kippersoft

Can't you recognise a dig?
Read more carefully.

He originally called him Kippersof (sans t). I had pointed out his chronic "typo" a long time ago. Now he adds the "t" and it becomes a "dig".

Tingkai has <b>never</b> thought highly of Kiprusoff -- during his playoff performance or Vezina year he never respected the guy as the league's dominant goaltender.

Tingkai's a leafs homer living in Hong Kong that likely hasn't seen a Western conference game in years. His opinion is even less valuable than a certain person who compares Ales Hemsky with Tanguay.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Asher

Read more carefully.

He originally called him Kippersof (sans t). I had pointed out his chronic "typo" a long time ago. Now he adds the "t" and it becomes a "dig".

Tingkai has <b>never</b> thought highly of Kiprusoff -- during his playoff performance or Vezina year he never respected the guy as the league's dominant goaltender.

Tingkai's a leafs homer living in Hong Kong that likely hasn't seen a Western conference game in years. His opinion is even less valuable than a certain person who compares Ales Hemsky with Tanguay.

All I ever saw was the 'soft' varient.

And you're right. Anyone who thinks Tanguay compares to Hemsky must have a few loose connections.

[Asher]

Originally posted by notyoueither
All I ever saw was the 'soft' varient.

And you're right. Anyone who thinks Tanguay compares to Hemsky must have a few loose connections.
Tanguay: 9G 24A 33P, +9
Hemsky: 5G 19A 24P, -4

Indeed. ;)

[Tingkai]

The dominant goalie in the league is Brodeur. Tops in shutouts, number 2 on GAA, shots against and wins, and third on Sv%. And he has three cup rings and Olympic gold.

As for Kippersoft, that's what I call him and I was calling him that when Asher was crying about my "spelling mistake" because he didn't get the jibe.

And yes, I watch Western Canadian team cause that's what the bar (the Keg in Lan Kwai Fong) usually plays.

More importantly, when I watch a game, I understand what is happening.

Remember Asher, how you blamed Tanquay for Sundin's 500th goal? You said Tanquay was on the point when he wasn't and that he was slow skating backwards, when it was Phaneuf who tripped up.

[Asher]

Remember Asher, how you blamed Tanquay for Sundin's 500th goal? You said Tanquay was on the point when he wasn't and that he was slow skating backwards, when it was Phaneuf who tripped up.
You still have reading comprehension problems. I was blaming Playfair in general, such as stating Tanguay on the point as being a dumb move. If you watch the video, he did start on the point, and in a few of the early games his inability to skate backwards cost us some goals. I'm sure you saw all those, too.

The dominant goalie in the league is Brodeur. Tops in shutouts, number 2 on GAA, shots against and wins, and third on Sv%. And he has three cup rings and Olympic gold.
Was Brodeur the dominant goaltender last season?

[Tingkai]

You do know the point is where the blue line meets the boards?

In the Sundin play, Phaneuf was at the point, tries passes ahead to Tanguay (up along the boards, not anywhere near the point). Sundin intercepts, races past Phaneuf (who trips over himself), fires a shot from the Flames blue line that handcuffs Kippersoft for a short-handed, game-winning goal in overtime.

The blame cannot be put on Playfair or Tanguay.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher

Again...he's written for many reputable hockey magazines and he has one of the most popular hockey blogs around. You may downplay the importance of people like him, but he gets read more regularly than similar bufoons like Mike Brophy (who is a certifiably douche, despite having lots of oldschool journalistic "cred").

This is a very pathetic way to dismiss a sound argument, by the way...you seem to think that everyone in the world thought the Raycroft deal was good, while it VERY MUCH was not.


I almost missed this joke.

It's easy to sell freelance stories to publications in Canada. Lots of people do it. That doesn't make them experts.

This guy is just a blogger, and not a very good one either.

A sound argument? Only you would say that.

He contends the Leafs should have picked Legace as their starter. This is a goalie who Scotty Bowman did not have faith in as a starter. Instead of using Legace as a starter, the Wings went out and got Cujo, and then Hasek, and even hired Hasek again rather than put their faith in Legace.

And yeah, Legace has looked good in the past couple of weeks, but look at how he played in October and November.

Oh, and Mirtle thinks the Leafs also should have considered Dunham (another old backup goalie) or Brian Boucher (another old backup goalie) or Martin Prusek (not even in the NHL this year).

He also suggested Hasek and Cujo (please note this is not a typo, it is a nickname for Curtis Joseph), but the Leafs need a goalie who can play for a couple of years until Pogge is ready. (although part of me would like to see Cujo back)

Your buddy has simply proven my case that the Leafs needed a no. 1 goalie and Raycroft was the best viable option.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Tingkai
You do know the point is where the blue line meets the boards?

In the Sundin play, Phaneuf was at the point, tries passes ahead to Tanguay (up along the boards, not anywhere near the point). Sundin intercepts, races past Phaneuf (who trips over himself), fires a shot from the Flames blue line that handcuffs Kippersoft for a short-handed, game-winning goal in overtime.

The blame cannot be put on Playfair or Tanguay.

Can't you two get over this? Does it really matter who was to blame for a single goal in overtime 2 months ago?

Tangs or Phaneuf or Kipper . . .. who cares? All players make mistakes, even the very best and all that matters in the long run is how often you make them and whether you learn from them.

Thats why, for instance, I take no delight in a single goof-up by any player. So when Asher shows another huge McCabe miscue, its really not a big deal. BUt what is relevant is if a player has a lot of them. To Asher's delight, McCabe fits the bill there too.


So . . . I don't care who caused that goal. It doesn't matter. What will matter is the respective positions those teams hold at the end of the season. Time will tell on that.

[Flubber]

oops dp

[Asher]

Based on recent play, I'd say Brodeur has retaken #1. He's been on a tear as of late. :b: