Turn 30 - 2840 BC

[Kloreep]

The scout has encountered a Sarantium warrior.

It seems to me we have little option but moving the scout 7, unless we turn back south. 7 will at least set it up to be able to move 2 the turn after.

[Kloreep]

The Horde, meanwhile, explores around our capitol.

BTW, at the end of this turn (but only after ending turn) we will have discovered Animal Husbandry and will thus be able to see horses. Whoever plays the turn should be sure to look for the ones on the so-far visible world and take a pic or two.

[rush]

7 is ok. :)

[Togas]

While we're at peace, isn't it possible to share a space with another unit?

--Togas

[polarnomad]

Yes, it is possible.

Kloreep, when you say "move 2" do you mean move 2 spaces? I guess you must since I don't see much point in moving 2 after moving 7.

Also, the Horde won't be able to see the copper tile we are working even if they move 7, right? I feel like it's better that they don't know.

[Kloreep]

Sorry, I did mean "move 2 spaces." As you may have noticed, I'm somewhat taken with the idea of moving 2 tiles with the scout each turn. :)

Re: copper, I don't think they will, but I'm not 100% certain. Not much we can do to stop them anyway.

[polarnomad]

Because our copper is situated on a coastal tile they probably will see it if they move 7, but as you say, there is nothing we can do about it. Of course, if the don't have bronze working they'll supposedly just see a mine...

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by polarnomad
Because our copper is situated on a coastal tile they probably will see it if they move 7, but as you say, there is nothing we can do about it. Of course, if the don't have bronze working they'll supposedly just see a mine...

This is true. But if they can't see the tile they'll know about it once they get BW.

[inamirrordarkly]

Originally posted by Kloreep


This is true. But if they can't see the tile they'll know about it once they get BW.
But in the FoW won't it still appear to be only a mine until they get close enough to actually view the tile again.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Yes, but what can you mine? They'll see a mine on a plains tile. That's copper, no matter how you look at it this early.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by inamirrordarkly

But in the FoW won't it still appear to be only a mine until they get close enough to actually view the tile again.

I believe resources do appear in FoW. Thus, we could see the second copper resource when, IIRC, we did not have any units near it at the time of BW's discovery. (And in general, one can see the placements of any resource after discovering the requisite tech. Otherwise you'd have to explore all areas over again once you could see a new resource.)

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Kloreep
BTW, at the end of this turn (but only after ending turn) we will have discovered Animal Husbandry and will thus be able to see horses.

So what research shall we start next? Fishing for the clams? The added food would certainly help push out settlers and workers faster, of course it would take a few turns to build a work boat. The tech would also be good to have for Ozzy's city 3 location, requiring of course that Alpha build another work boat.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I don't know where the turn is at, but can we hold off playing a reasonable amount of time until I hear from Aidun with reguards to the Scouting their territory, please?

[polarnomad]

The save probably won't get to us for about 3 days, and then we can delay for 48 hours. Should be plenty of time.

[Kloreep]

Good question re: tech. Good thing we won't have to decide on this save...

The city placement matters a lot for whether we need Masonry anytime soon. Even if this settler goes to it, though, I think we may have time to research a cheap tech like Fishing beforehand. The main thing with fishing is that it would indeed require a fishing boat be built to actually get extra food; and remember that every turn building a non-pop unit means not only do the shields not go toward a pop unit, but the food goes toward growth instead of a pop-unit - a double-whammy.

[polarnomad]

Not certain whether you mean that growth would be a bad thing here. I don't believe we will have problems with unrest in Alpha until we hit size 6. We also need to grow in order to take advantage of the clams. The extra 2 coins from the clams would also speed up any future research. The problem with pigs is that we get no research bonus from them.

[Kloreep]

Growth isn't a bad thing, I'm just saying that any investment in growth is necessarily food invested in growth is food not invested in settlers & accompanying workers.

[polarnomad]

True, likewise an extra 2 food per turn helps pop out workers and settlers faster. :tongue: ;)

So, what are the other options worth going for? You're saying masonry? Definitely a plus if we settle Ozzy's location 3 now, otherwise maybe it can wait.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by polarnomad
True, likewise an extra 2 food per turn helps pop out workers and settlers faster. :tongue: ;)

True. ;) But again, that requires building a workboat, and since AB itself will probably be the one to have to do that, it requires food to be invested in growth while shields are being invested in the workboat. And since we'll probably want more axes out of AB as well, I don't think AB will have any problem growing to size 4 in the near future.

Originally posted by polarnomad
So, what are the other options worth going for? You're saying masonry? Definitely a plus if we settle Ozzy's location 3 now, otherwise maybe it can wait.

Yeah, it's all in what site we settle.

Next save we should check how many turns each tech will take. It could be we could go for fishing and still be able to get Masonry in plenty of time should we ultimately go for a site by stone. Ozzy's site, for instance, would need 5 turns after founding for borders to even reach the stone, which would be needed before the worker could even begin building the quarry.

[rush]

Save is here.

Assuming we declare War, what moves does Sar wants us to move our Scout ? My understanding is, if we move the Scout say onto the Cow tile, then Sar will not be able to work on that tile. :)

[UnOrthOdOx]

Assume we DO NOT move into their territory unless we hear from them.

I'm sending emails and PM's to Aidun and ET.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Sarantium does not wish us to cross the border, so go on ahead.

PERSONALLY, I favor scouting south rather than attempting to go around Sarantium. We need to know if the Horde is down there.

[polarnomad]

Can't we just wait for the map trade with Sarantium to find out? Otherwise do you have a suggestion for the current move?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Map trade is not guaranteed either. I can't make a suggestion as I haven't opened the save in a while and these are very limiting screenshots.

[polarnomad]

I opened the turn save to post images of the known world. Check them (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155219) out. :)

Edit by Kloreep: They're now in this thread. :)

[polarnomad]

Because we need to decide which way to go I am posting some new images of the known world. I however forgot to include the grid, so if someone really wants them then I'll post new images, but until that time here we go:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/polarnomad/2840bc1.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/polarnomad/civ2840bc2.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/polarnomad/civ2840bc3.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/polarnomad/civ2840bc4.jpg

Sorry, it's nothing fancy, but perhaps it will serve its purpose.

So, where to?

EDIT: The save is still a virgin of sorts, since I have touched nothing... No really! :cute:

[UnOrthOdOx]

Clicky for full size:

<img src=http://apolyton.net/upload/thumb/20498_Map.JPG> (http://apolyton.net/upload/view/20498_Map.JPG)

[polarnomad]

Nice collage! :love:

So I drew up 2 alternatives that I thought have merit:

1 - Red route for an immediate about face to start uncovering tiles to the south.

2 - Blue route involves opening up tiles to the north along the coastline at the point designated by a square, making a last minute decision about whether or not to turn south, and then taking terrain defense bonus into account when heading back, if we indeed decide to do so.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/polarnomad/civ2820bc_suggestions.jpg

[UnOrthOdOx]

I favor south.

Yes, jungle down down there. It's also the most likely location of Horde, and we'll be seeing barbs soon, so the jungle cover will be good.

[polarnomad]

Sounds good to me. I'll wait for confirmation from others and play it in the morning if Kloreep doesn't during the night.

[Kloreep]

If we're going south, and that does seem to be the majority (so far as I know I'm the only one favoring north) I think we should do an immediate about-face, i.e. red.

BTW, it's turn 30, or 2840 BC, that we are still discussing. ;) Will merge the threads, I think I can do that...

Edit: Merge completed. Will play the turn this evening so there can be a little more discussion of the scout.

[rush]

I am also in favour of going North, simply for the reason of squeezing a Scout through the opening (if there is one) and find the Hordes starting location.

Looking at how the Hordes scouts moved so far, they appeared to come from East of Sar. Their scout near Sa capital was moving to the South. The other scout was moving East to West direction before checking out Alpha base.

Moving our Scout south is also a good option, but our Scout 2-movement is not best utilised for moving through Jungle.

[Kloreep]

Contacted UnO on AIM hoping to get the turn out in only a little over 24 hours.

Kloreep (10:50:03 PM): Hi. You there?
SirUlias (10:50:18 PM): Hello
Kloreep (10:50:30 PM): C4DG Mercs are coming up on 24 hours with the save
Kloreep (10:50:39 PM): And we seem to be tied 2-2 on the scout move.
SirUlias (10:51:47 PM): K...you want to change my mind.
Kloreep (10:52:11 PM): First I'd like to see what you have that might change mine... what makes you think the Horde is to the south?
Kloreep (10:52:17 PM): Rush just made a post that seems quite plausible to me
Kloreep (10:52:32 PM): Not open-shut, particularly if they are not directly south of Sarantium, but possible
SirUlias (10:53:04 PM): Just looking at the fog. It's more like I don't feel we can afford to not know if they are to our south.
Kloreep (10:53:10 PM): Ah
SirUlias (10:53:24 PM): I also think if they are not to the south, we have a decent shot at more huts.
SirUlias (10:54:00 PM): I also get the feeling Sarantium may not go for the map deal.
Kloreep (10:54:08 PM): Ah
SirUlias (10:54:15 PM): So we won't know without scouting.
Kloreep (10:54:17 PM): Yeah, we certainly shouldn't take that as a given
SirUlias (10:54:57 PM): On the other hand though, if we don't head for that gap we may not get a chance to see what's on the other side of Sarantium
Kloreep (10:55:11 PM): Yeah...
Kloreep (10:55:21 PM): I'm quite interested in whether they have much more land, or are basically on the edge of a nub
SirUlias (10:55:21 PM): So, we could go for that and trust the jungle is enough of a buffer to prevent attack even if the Horde is to our south.
Kloreep (10:55:46 PM): Jungle isn't going to be a buffer, particularly if the Horde are building archers and copper units (1 move)
Kloreep (10:55:48 PM): Only distance will
Kloreep (10:55:56 PM): Jungle doesn't really help unless they move around with horses
SirUlias (10:56:23 PM): It's a big jungle. Would you want a city on the far side of it?
SirUlias (10:56:42 PM): Again, squeeze maneuver is the way to go for warmongering there...
SirUlias (10:57:58 PM): The Horde wants a chat, I've been unable to get a time with Plato yet.
SirUlias (10:58:18 PM): I can virtually guarantee they want to buy units to attack Sarantium
SirUlias (10:59:49 PM): This is part of the reason I reallly want to know if they are south or not. Is it a team desperate for being stuck in a jungle, or one wanting to split the continent in 2?
Kloreep (10:59:59 PM): Hmm
Kloreep (11:00:22 PM): When you put it like that, locating the Horde does seem a little more important, assuming they succeed in choking Sarantium
Kloreep (11:01:02 PM): Also, something I just realized rush missed...
SirUlias (11:01:02 PM): I wouldn't put an outright rush past them. Just saying a choke is the smarter choice...
Kloreep (11:01:24 PM): That Horde scout was along the lake. Now it's on a hill. it's heading west along Sarantium's border, not south into the jungle
Kloreep (11:01:47 PM): Okay, I'll switch my vote to heading south
SirUlias (11:02:20 PM): I think we may want to check that southern border of Sarantium on our swing south actually.
Kloreep (11:02:34 PM): You mean the lake/
Kloreep (11:02:35 PM): ?
Kloreep (11:02:38 PM): There's not much else to see
Kloreep (11:02:43 PM): /coast
Kloreep (11:02:50 PM): No idea whether the water is contained or not
SirUlias (11:02:56 PM): ?
Let me open it...
Kloreep (11:03:47 PM): The hill E of the horde scout borders water
Kloreep (11:03:55 PM): And the jungle se, for that matter
SirUlias (11:06:21 PM): ok, couldn't see the coast in the screenshots.
SirUlias (11:07:20 PM): I don't know, the landmass seems south is more likely location of the Horde.
SirUlias (11:07:22 PM): To me.
Kloreep (11:07:59 PM): I agree, given that horde scout's movement
SirUlias (11:08:14 PM): In fact, Jungle almost always arrives near the equators on the random generator.
Kloreep (11:08:18 PM): However, I'm not sure much lies to the east except water
Kloreep (11:08:34 PM): So polarnomad's more direct route would be fine, I think
SirUlias (11:08:42 PM): So, it just makes sense to have something below it.
Kloreep (11:08:55 PM): Yeah, somewha
Kloreep (11:08:56 PM): t
Kloreep (11:09:03 PM): Unless the continent cuts off to the south
Kloreep (11:09:19 PM): Or there is a fourth civ entirely...
SirUlias (11:09:35 PM): However, you can see part of a coast further north along Sarantium's side.
Kloreep (11:09:45 PM): I need to figure out how religion icon works, but we thought Vox had contact with Sarantium a while back
Kloreep (11:10:04 PM): You mean the plains northwest of them?
Kloreep (11:10:10 PM): It does cut in at least a tile more, yes
Kloreep (11:10:14 PM): We don't know the extent though
SirUlias (11:11:04 PM): You mean just cause we see the icon someone we met must know them?
SirUlias (11:11:18 PM): I don't think so for MP
Kloreep (11:11:23 PM): Oh, okay
Kloreep (11:11:35 PM): I thought the icon popped up when we met Sarantium, though
Kloreep (11:11:40 PM): Hang on, let me go back to that turn
SirUlias (11:12:11 PM): But then why do we not see the budhist icon...
Kloreep (11:12:28 PM): Because they haven't converted to Buddhism, perhaps
Kloreep (11:12:34 PM): If contact doesn't matter
Kloreep (11:12:45 PM): Sarantium seems to have founded it IIRC
SirUlias (11:12:58 PM): Nope. Or we would know the holy city.
Kloreep (11:12:58 PM): And yeah, they aren't spiritual...
SirUlias (11:13:07 PM): I think.
Kloreep (11:13:30 PM): You're sure we would know teh holy city?
Kloreep (11:13:36 PM): We haven't actually uncovered the city of Sarantium
SirUlias (11:13:43 PM): True.
Kloreep (11:13:58 PM): And Sarantium experienced a weird culture spike
Kloreep (11:14:06 PM): Took them even with and then past us two creative civs on the other side
Kloreep (11:14:23 PM): And the timing of the spike looks about right
SirUlias (11:14:34 PM): Then they must have.
SirUlias (11:15:48 PM): Why is our score so pissy?
Kloreep (11:15:54 PM): Low population, I think
Kloreep (11:16:05 PM): Possibly low research, but I haven't been trying to keep track of tech discovery
SirUlias (11:18:01 PM): We are 6th on pop. That means most others haven't gone for a settler and/or worker yet. We are #2 in shields despite that.
SirUlias (11:18:05 PM): Hammers, sorry.
Kloreep (11:18:17 PM): Okay, scratch the Vox contact idea...
Kloreep (11:18:29 PM): We see the Hinduism symbol that turn before making contact
Kloreep (11:18:40 PM): Yeah, copper rocks :D
Kloreep (11:18:56 PM): Just think our much our hammers would rock if we also settled the second city by a hammer resource... ;-)
SirUlias (11:19:26 PM): I prefer the location for a city, yes. Just concerned we'll get cut off by Sarantium in the east.
Kloreep (11:19:47 PM): All depends on the Horde, I guess
SirUlias (11:19:47 PM): Given the current political state, i'm leaning that way even so.
Kloreep (11:20:07 PM): At least as far a short-term politics go, I'm pretty much hoping they do choke Sarantium at this point
SirUlias (11:20:12 PM): We need a barracks and troops.
SirUlias (11:20:18 PM): LOTS of troops
SirUlias (11:20:35 PM): And a second source of copper to dangle in front of people's noses won't hurt.
SirUlias (11:21:00 PM): Makes me concerned we wont have iron though, that second source...
Kloreep (11:21:56 PM): Well, back to turnplay if I may redirect us...
Kloreep (11:22:04 PM): With my switch I think it's 3-1 south
Kloreep (11:22:42 PM): I think that should be about all needed to play the turn and get us a look at the horsies, if we can agree on a path
SirUlias (11:23:04 PM): Oh, we get ponies?
Kloreep (11:23:08 PM): I like polarnomad's 2-1. Gets us a +75 defense bonus, and I dnot' see a need to hug the post
Kloreep (11:23:09 PM): Don't know
Kloreep (11:23:17 PM): But we get Animal Husbandry at the end of the turn
Kloreep (11:23:24 PM): But only after hitting end turn...
SirUlias (11:23:43 PM): That's ok, we can still look around.
Kloreep (11:23:57 PM): Yep :-)
Kloreep (11:24:05 PM): So what do you think about the scout?
Kloreep (11:24:17 PM): You suggested earlier to move more eastward, but that was before seeing the coast...
SirUlias (11:24:48 PM): Red looks as good as anything else.
Kloreep (11:25:01 PM): Okay, shall I go ahead and play then?
Kloreep (11:25:04 PM): Or you can if you want
SirUlias (11:25:46 PM): Nah, go ahead, mine is bugging out on me with all this switching back and forth. The minimap is a checkerboard, and graphics are all goofy.
Kloreep (11:25:55 PM): Heh, nice
Kloreep (11:26:09 PM): And mind if I post this chat? Easier than trying to sum up all we've discussed here...
SirUlias (11:26:23 PM): I sure hope warlords fixes some of the ATI problems...but it's not likely...
SirUlias (11:26:31 PM): Yeah, go ahead.

[Kloreep]

Report
-Moved scout 2-1. Horde archer spotted
-End turn. Animal Husbandry!

Pics of map with horsies to follow. We can see 2, unfortunately neither is all that close to AB.

[Kloreep]

Horsies:

<img src=http://apolyton.net/upload/thumb.php?file=20487_bc.2840.wm.horsies.jpg> (http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=20487_bc.2840.wm.horsies.jpg)

And the scout:

[Kloreep]

Second part of chat.

Going to cross-post relevent bits of this to the next turnthread and the city placement thread...

Kloreep (11:27:58 PM): Moving scout 2
Kloreep (11:28:08 PM): Nothing new, moving scout 1
Kloreep (11:28:16 PM): Horde archer!
Kloreep (11:28:23 PM): Aidun was telling at least the partial truth
SirUlias (11:28:49 PM): Well, there's no way a horde archer got there from the far side.
Kloreep (11:28:51 PM): Ended turn
Kloreep (11:28:58 PM): Yeah
SirUlias (11:29:00 PM): :skull:
Kloreep (11:29:33 PM): Two horsies...
Kloreep (11:29:41 PM): One a little SW of sarantium
Kloreep (11:29:55 PM): The other south of us, sorta inbetween the corn/gold area and the Ozzy-2nd site area
SirUlias (11:31:24 PM): A city down by those horses and gems eventually?
Kloreep (11:31:52 PM): Yeah
Kloreep (11:32:03 PM): Third or fourth city depending on what we want to do, I'd say
SirUlias (11:32:04 PM): On that plains hill.
SirUlias (11:32:21 PM): Corn, horses, 2 gems in fat cross.
Kloreep (11:32:58 PM): And we're in under the 24 hour limit with 25 minutes to spare. :-)
Kloreep (11:33:07 PM): Now to post horsie pics
SirUlias (11:33:29 PM): I think I officially change my stance to settling up by our second copper, get another hammer city with a barracks and whatnot, secure that gem/pony site with City 3, and backfill after that.
Kloreep (11:34:13 PM): Settling by the copper doesn't block Sarantium... but it looks like we won't have to worry about aggression from them.
SirUlias (11:34:43 PM): Right, and they likely want to minimize their front, so will expand N and/or East if they do at all.
SirUlias (11:35:06 PM): We just need ot be sure not to become the target. The copper city is closer and more defensible.
Kloreep (11:35:19 PM): Not to mention a much better hammer resource than stone
Kloreep (11:35:24 PM): 1 more hammer, no new techs to research
Kloreep (11:35:47 PM): And there is even one placement that would get both in the cross
SirUlias (11:36:19 PM): Are we doing fishing next?
Kloreep (11:36:24 PM): Hasn't been decided
Kloreep (11:37:00 PM): I'm leery of building a fishing boat in AB, but it would need to be calculated out... could be a net benefit
SirUlias (11:37:47 PM): It's really down to fishing, masonry, or pottery isn't it?
Kloreep (11:38:13 PM): Pottery requires fishing or agriculture
Kloreep (11:38:26 PM): Masonry all depends on whether we'll be getting the stone anytime soon
Kloreep (11:38:32 PM): And it isn't urgent if the city site will also have the copper
SirUlias (11:38:37 PM): Curse my color blindness...
SirUlias (11:38:44 PM): Thought we had agri
Kloreep (11:38:46 PM): I think agriculture wouldn't be a poor choice
Kloreep (11:39:08 PM): The copper city can pretty easily net a grain resource
SirUlias (11:39:56 PM): We don't need the fish now, but they do add some nice commerce.
Kloreep (11:40:11 PM): They could add 2 food w/ a fishing boat
Kloreep (11:40:31 PM): But 30 shields is a bit of an investment, particularly when the food will all go to growth during its build
SirUlias (11:41:36 PM): Right, that's why I normally pop rush em. We're not ready for that yet. Agri gets my vote.
Kloreep (11:41:59 PM): Sounds good to me
Kloreep (11:42:15 PM): Unless we deviate from the settler rush plan, that'll have us getting it only about the time the settler finishes and heads out
SirUlias (11:42:45 PM): After our next settler, we should get on the boats though. (not current settler being built, the next one)
SirUlias (11:43:24 PM): Should be around size 4 in the capitol at that point, and wouldn't hurt to pop one.
SirUlias (11:44:01 PM): actually closer to size 5 with the pigs.
SirUlias (11:45:00 PM): So, Stone, Wheat, gold, and copper could all be in city site 2...
SirUlias (11:45:35 PM): Or Corn, fish, copper, and a port city.
Kloreep (11:47:28 PM): I think the first has more use in the long-short term
Kloreep (11:47:34 PM): Though it may not be ideal placement in the really long term
SirUlias (11:48:01 PM): Right, the coastal city allows more long term placement options.
SirUlias (11:48:16 PM): But the sheer fog removal of that tile 4 of the wheat...
SirUlias (11:48:41 PM): And it would be a hell of a city long term. It just jams up the middle a bit for backfilling.
Kloreep (11:49:11 PM): Cities only need 2 spaces apart
Kloreep (11:49:18 PM): There would technically be room for a city west on the coast
Kloreep (11:49:21 PM): Just a question of tiles to work
SirUlias (11:49:22 PM): Right, but you got to work tiles too.
Kloreep (11:49:40 PM): 4 of wheat has a ton of tiles, though
Kloreep (11:49:43 PM): It could give up some
Kloreep (11:49:54 PM): The coastal city would be hammer poor, mind you, but it wouldn't have to be at 1pt
SirUlias (11:50:34 PM): Give up tiles? Never, that's one for...uh, whatever makes the city have no unhappy.
Kloreep (11:50:35 PM): Only other disadvantage is no true seal to the northern approach to AB
Kloreep (11:50:48 PM): But we can tell an invasion force from an innocent scout, and we will have total sight with the border expansion
Kloreep (11:51:01 PM): Globe theatre?
Kloreep (11:51:07 PM): Eventually it would be pretty good, yeah
SirUlias (11:51:09 PM): Yeah, that thing.
SirUlias (11:51:39 PM): Wanted to say shakespeares there.
SirUlias (11:52:30 PM): Well, I got to get off to bed.
Kloreep (11:52:38 PM): Yeah, I should be going too
Kloreep (11:52:44 PM): I'll post this second part too if you don't object
Kloreep (11:52:55 PM): Food for thought for both the next turnthread and the city placement thread
SirUlias (11:53:02 PM): No, go ahead. We need to get a poll on city locales.
Kloreep (11:53:04 PM): k
Kloreep (11:53:07 PM): Night
SirUlias (11:53:12 PM): night