GP trading allowed?

[binTravkin]

There were some people expressing that while they're pro libertarian, they oppose GP trading.

By default GP trading is allowed in game and in snoopy369's thread, so I'd like to ask for an argument why to disable it.

[binTravkin]

Yea for me

[Chaunk]

Snoddasmannen wrote:

<a href="http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117456">Cough</a> :cute: Proper anarchists we are.

I don't know if GP trading should be allowed, I would want it disallowed it if it made the game less exciting. I will vote A on this poll, but it does not automatically follow that I want to allow GP trading.

Apart from the rules about no choppers attacking and the rule covering revolted bases, there's nothing in there that is unusual. Personnaly, I was against the chopper restrictions, although for the revolting bases rule as it's possible for that to be a deliberate exploit. The chopper restrictions do nothing but hinder gameplay, limiting players choices (It's impossible to (suicide) attack a base further than 2x your aircraft move for example).

This restriction firmly falls into the chopper section. it limits choices, and needlessly so. Yes, choppers are a powerful tool, but so are GP. Restricting their use is not going to help, but only hinder creative players, or co-operative uses.

SMAC has always been about attacking in warfare. Exceedingly rarely does a defensive war work. It's usually just a war aiming to reduce the level of defeat. We play the game knowing that, and reducing attacking choices doesn't help IMO - nothing will help the defender if he's in a position where choppers can attack his bases so easily.

GP are similar, and yet also not. It is hard, or perhaps impossible, to win without producing them. So why limit their use in such a stupidly arbritrary fashion?

Edit: That means yes. :cute:

[Maniac]

Snoddasmannen wrote:
<a href="http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117456">Cough</a> :cute: Proper anarchists we are.

:lol: I was thinking the exact thing.

Originally posted by Chaunk
This restriction firmly falls into the chopper section. it limits choices, and needlessly so.

Actually I'd say it increases choices, as now you can do other things than chop&drop and offensive wars.

[Maniac]

Oh I just realized people are talking about Great People and not Gold Pieces. :idiot:

[binTravkin]

That Fried guy has really fried his brains. :cute:

[GeoModder]

Nah, he's just pulling his weight as a Civ veteran. That's all. ;)

Too many Civplayers want this to be a clash of linear growth, grudgingly accepting the possible benefits terrain gives to other teams. Wild cards like GP's don fit in such a view.

You should have seen the ruckus when I seized on a "loophole" left in the ruleset of the Civ PBEM I participate in. :shame:

[binTravkin]

I feel like going into lurk mode.

People who chop off their own wings are losers.

[Chaunk]

Originally posted by binTravkin
I feel like going into lurk mode.

People who chop off their own wings are losers.

QFT.

[PJayTycy]

Originally posted by Maniac
Oh I just realized people are talking about Great People and not Gold Pieces. :idiot:

Yes, let's trade coins with the germans, the english and the others ! If we are first to have atleast one coin of each civ, we might get lower city maintenance costs !



They do have a point about having more experience with it than I have. I might even agree with this rule to get the game going. I'm losing interest very fast this way. Civ-demogames have a whole different atmosphere than AC-demogames. But, they shouldn't keep inventing new prohibition rules whenever a new strategy comes up.


btw: They all are so opposed to GP trading, but a lot of them are part of the beta-testers right? So why didn't they bring the issue up during beta testing then?

[binTravkin]

They all are so opposed to GP trading, but a lot of them are part of the beta-testers right? So why didn't they bring the issue up during beta testing then?
Review the thread PJay, it's only an impression all are opposed.

There are some, like Fried, basically mostly he, whom everyone follow like sheep, that's it.

[Lacero]

I have no strong opinion on whether to stop GP trading or not.

I have a fairly strong opinion about the "debate" thread but as I agree with you all on that there's no point expressing it :)

[Kataphraktoi]

Originally posted by binTravkin
I feel like going into lurk mode.

People who chop off their own wings are losers.

Good thing ACDGIV starts soon :b:

oh wait, the allies want to play 6 more months :bored: :cute:


I have no strong opinion on whether to stop GP trading or not.

I have a fairly strong opinion about the "debate" thread but as I agree with you all on that there's no point expressing it

Yeah, there is no conclusion being reached and no one is getting convinced of anything contrary to what they already felt. We should make a poll and decide.

[Kataphraktoi]

With the complete agreement of everyone in the related threads, i dont see these polls as needed.

Our glorious people revel in our complete unity under Chairman bT :dance:

WLTCD*!! :dance:
*Thats a We Love The Chairman Day for you GAing popboomers

[binTravkin]

Greetings Soren!


I have a personal question about cIV mechanics:

Is the trading of GP (Great People) been intended by the development team as possible and acceptable practice?


I hope Im not disturbing You much,
binTravkin


you mean between Civs in mp? I guess I don't see anything wrong with it per se... As long as both sides benefit, it's like any other type of trading...

[Illuminatus]

:lol::b:

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by GeoModder


Too many Civplayers want this to be a clash of linear growth, grudgingly accepting the possible benefits terrain gives to other teams. Wild cards like GP's don fit in such a view.

You should have seen the ruckus when I seized on a "loophole" left in the ruleset of the Civ PBEM I participate in. :shame:

I agree with GeoModder. This is the truth. :q: No to best micromanagment demogame.

[binTravkin]

Illu, you thought that was a joke?

Wanna login my account @ REMOVED ?

[Senethro]

Honestly, some Civ players can get very narrow minded. Others are obsessively fixed with Building. The fact that we're not playing on a Pangaea is bad enough as it has completely ruled out a conquest victory.

[binTravkin]

I wouldn't say that pangaea rules out conquest and I would say that pangaea is pretty extreme end.

Also, if GP is allowed, it should benefit the fighters at least a little, as Fried himself admitted, so it should balance out things with conquest.

[N35t0r]

Why should it be disallowed?

[binTravkin]

See the big thread where some conservativists are running in tail of the great Fried-Psitalon, who knowing he and his team has an inherent advantage due to being very expierenced in cIV MP, are doing all they can to disallow it.
If it is on, their cardhouse of strategy would quickly dissolve as some things will be slightly different.

Everyone else except us, Mercs and some bright individuals are pretty much following blindly as sheep..

[binTravkin]

Lol, this is hilarious, I posted Soren's personal opinion, or maybe rather opinion how he sees the GP issue (because the question can be taken as not personal) and they drop on the quote demoting the very person who made this game..:shame:

[Kataphraktoi]

Did you ask soren if you could quote him on that? Unless you linked him to our discussion, his statement would be illegitimate. On the same note, soren bashing= :q: see thread

What they really are saying is CIV4 has one set of intended strategy and anything that goes beyond=bad. I suspected they wanted to own and define civ4 when i read their after-release posts reeking of 'holier than thou' (ironic statement from me, mr creationist ;) ). The way they argued against tree chopping, did anyone see that? You couldnt say 'chop' without them showing up and extolling civ4(and how chopping is well balanced).

What is up with krill BS and not giving links?


Hehe what a big mess i helped start... :D:b:
By helping start, i mean by sending in teh Latvian Elite Commandoes. :p

[binTravkin]

Latvian Elite Commandoes
Tieði tâ, komandier!:cool:

Did you ask soren if you could quote him on that?
No I didn't.
I somehow assumed that he's a bit more of authority to those people and they won't be denouncing him.
Also - the statement is his opinion, who'd be posting in a forum aswell, if he was asked, so, I think there's nothing wrong with posting it if we talk about legal terms.
Im considering to send an apology to Soren.

soren bashing
Those people are indeed pathetic, I agree.
Bashing someone who's even not there..:shame:

What they really are saying is CIV4 has one set of intended strategy and anything that goes beyond=bad
Which contradicts what Soren says.

I suspected they wanted to own and define civ4 when i read their after-release posts reeking of 'holier than thou'
It seems the case here, yes.

What is up with krill BS and not giving links?

I think he's making it all up, like if there was/had been some discussion or stuff.
I highly suspect there wasn't, at least Soren would know and admit it.
And I really doubt a discussion can be so secret (at least most of it).
We're not talking about source code, after all..

[Kataphraktoi]

Unfortunatly i dont have latvian fonts installed+auto translators cannot handle latvian at all. They cant handle any language-the only one i have any start on besides english is german, and i can see when it translates its just not right.

You should see the folder i put together on flyboy21a. Interesting <s>dl</s> person that likes RP :cute:

[binTravkin]

My latvian was basically:
'Yes, commander!'

Where do you have that folder?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Illu, you thought that was a joke?

Wanna login my account @ REMOVED ?

What forum is that?

[binTravkin]

That is Civ4 beta testing forum.
Not the main, Firaxis one though (which is restricted to special persons, some of whom are FP, Krill, NYE), but only Poly's.

[Maniac]

Weird. It seems to have been founded 16 December 2005 only. Is it for an expansion pack (and are you a beta-tester)?

[Illuminatus]

You should be careful with that guys, the forum is supposed to be secret (despite the constant references to it in this forums). PM it, don't post it. What if a newer member spread the url and rumours? :shame:

And captain, I believed you but I was amused with your initiative which gave you the ultimate argument. :b:

[Maniac]

Geo: Something Maniac said shouldn't be too public... :cute:

[binTravkin]

Illu, from what moment you have admin rights here?
It was not long ago when you asked me to do an admin task for you.

And captain, I believed you but I was amused with your initiative which gave you the ultimate argument. :b:

Well, thanks Illu.
I was clear of emotions when I reviewed the situation before my first argument there (that about drawing the line where intended things are over, which by the way is an accepted guideline in ACDGs), but then FPs answer was kinda suspicious.
I didn't ever believe it was not intended and that such a major thing could be overseen.
It was the first thing to pop up in my head when there were some talks about unit trading prior to private forums.

When he still, based on arbitrary things like authority, denied my arguments providing no contrargument, simply claiming and assuming what he did, it was clear his judgement is subjective, for the good of himself and team (and probably some more people).
I hate such people.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Illu, from what moment you have admin rights here?

Everyone can edit each other's posts here.

Chaunk: It's true, we can.

CT: Neat!

bT: :cute:

Senethro: Jumping on the bandwagon.

:zzz: old hat ;)

[binTravkin]

Lol, but that's not good. (I honestly had noticed it)

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Maniac
It doesn't seem very secret or exclusive with over xxx members. :cute:

Yeah, you're quick on getting intel eh. :lol:

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Maniac


Everyone can edit each other's posts here.

Chaunk: It's true, we can.

:lol: @ Chaunk. It sometimes comes nifty in demogames. This exploit was fixed for ACDGIII but occured here again.

It doesn't seem very secret or exclusive with over xxx members.
I was informed only a week ago. Apparently everyone assumed I already knew. :mad:

[binTravkin]

Don't look at me..:cute:

[ForesterSOF]

All I can say to all of this is:

Lets have a poll to see if we need to have a poll. :) :)

[Chaunk]

Originally posted by ForesterSOF
Lets have a poll to see if we need to have a poll. :) :)

Your poll is up, and can be found <a href="showthread.php?s=&threadid=149365">here</a>.

[Kataphraktoi]

Thats a secret forum? :confused:


Ive been editing other peoples posts for jokes :naughty:
Even on ACDG3 private forums. it is most definitly not fixed there. FACT
I also asked the mods, its an intended feature.


Where do you have that folder?


Locked away deep within a bunker in a top secret locale in the rocky mountains* :cool:


(*western US, its often where extremeist military groups hang out, not to mention area51 and secret goverment bases all over the place)

[Illuminatus]

Even on ACDG3 private forums. it is most definitly not fixed there.
My mistake, I thought it was. :confused:


(*western US*, its often where extremeist military groups hang out, not to mention area51 and secret goverment bases all over the place)

Spartan Coalition? :eek:

[binTravkin]

I though Spartans came from Mexico, or at least somewhere in the South..:hmmm:

[binTravkin]

I think if this happens one more time we should really boycott this DG, so those people have some bad popularity.
People resigning there and there do not make the public go 'whoha, somethings going on there'.
Somethings just need to be changed.

[Kataphraktoi]

Illum the spartan federation is based in that area, and LA. its in some fanfiction

[Kataphraktoi]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
Even on ACDG3 private forums. it is most definitly not fixed there.
My mistake, I thought it was. :confused:





Well i edited posts by hercules and honghu so i guess its still in

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by binTravkin
I though Spartans came from Mexico, or at least somewhere in the South..:hmmm:

Actually in the 2050s, Spartan Coalition, a survivalist movement, rose to prominence in North America.

Ugh, I assimilated too much background information about SMAC. :( At least I've got the new sig update.

[binTravkin]

Well i edited posts by hercules and honghu so i guess its still in
:hmmm:

Illu, you have a typo in sig.

[Illuminatus]

Ah, how typical of me. :idiot:

[binTravkin]

I just reread the thread.
It looks like an endless purse for arguments and contrarguments.

I see that arguments that both tech and hapiness were also not intended to be gotten easily, trading those resources is okay - FP simply ignored that point by nitpicking the weaker part of the post.
You can call it rhetorics Illu, but that doesn't speak anything good about the person doing it.
It only says he's too weak to answer the strong argument.

[binTravkin]

You know what I just realised guys?

Sarantium and Merc Team are the only teams to have philosophical trait, so all this hassle could be one big lobby to keep their advantage in creating GP.

It might be that they even have a certain strategy done on the topic already.

[ForesterSOF]

That is verry posible since we do the same idea with our factons when we can.

[Kataphraktoi]

Then we would have been used to support their strategy?

[binTravkin]

Then we would have been used to support their strategy?
:confused:

What do you mean?

My point was that they realised that GP gives them inherent strenght as they're double as good in getting them and didn't want to trade them, so the only other GP-rich civ couldn't spoil their masterplan by providing cheap way to GPs..

[ForesterSOF]

Yep.

We need to think like a politician and double think and then stab in the back since it looks like that is the way they are playing.

It is not the way we want to play but circumstances seem to deam otherwise.

If we try to stay nice you know we will go down in flames so lets take a Civ to the max of what is posible and show them that phylosaphy is powerfull but finances rule the game.

Go Team, Go Team; GO GO GO.

:)

[binTravkin]

Good encouragement :):b:

[Illuminatus]

Great deduction binTravkin. How could we have missed that they were philosophical. How do we stand now?

[Kataphraktoi]

My point was that they realised that GP gives them inherent strenght as they're double as good in getting them and didn't want to trade them, so the only other GP-rich civ couldn't spoil their masterplan by providing cheap way to GPs..

Umm yes what i just said=same thing. team merc maybe manipulating team ac into supporting them


We need to think like a politician and double think and then stab in the back since it looks like that is the way they are playing.

do you guys really think this way about it? :confused:

Why cant we play honorably?

[Kataphraktoi]

And how come sarantium voted against GP trading if they are in league with team merc?

[binTravkin]

Great deduction binTravkin. How could we have missed that they were philosophical. How do we stand now?
What do you mean with 'stand'?:confused:
I probably didn't notice that coz I was busy proving the intended thing was made out of thin air.
If it proves true (the thing they want to monopolise GPs), it will come out completely right in the end about subjectivity of FP.

And how come sarantium voted against GP trading if they are in league with team merc?
Bah, Kata, they are not in one team with merc.

They are on the completely opposite side.

While Sarantium is trying to monopolise GPs and thus make full use of them, and probably become very strong through that, Merc is wanting to be allowed to trade them, so anyone can get them for a reasonable price.

[Kataphraktoi]

OK. Sarantium was 8-6 against, so i very much doubt they have such a coordinated team effort-unless of course, they voted that way on purpose.

Illum basicly means this bT: 'What will we do now that we know that?'
He is asking where we stand. To illustrate that: do we stand in mud\water\land?

[binTravkin]

Was it 8-6? IIRC it was 8-3..:hmmm: Edit: it was 7-3, pretty much a majority.
Anyways, it might happen that I have actually convinced some of them..:)

Most of the anti-GP-trade people were from Sarantium, second place was taken by GS.

I didn't see a single Horde member there, Bananas, AC and Merc all where pro-GP-trade.

Vox (in person of Jon Miller) seemed quite indifferent and flexible.


Regarding our stance - what can we do?
Your proposals?
I have pretty much expressed myself and became pretty angered by the way things are 'discussed' there, so I have no interest whatsoever to do anything except landing my old idea generator.
But first I want to hear a suggestion by any of you.

[Kataphraktoi]

1. We leave and potentialy look like spoiled childen

2. We play on and kick butt. failing that we escape the folly of earth and go to a new future, glorious and bright, on AC.

[binTravkin]

Gah, Kata, whomever said we are going somewhere.

Some of us might leave, but that only leaves the most encouraged and interested people in, there's no way it means the entire team is leaving. :p

After all we are the 2nd biggest team. :)

The question was more what can we do about what we know.

[Senethro]

Meh.

And thats all I have to say right now.

Theres too much DG history in effect here...

[ForesterSOF]

So lets do as Kat says and kick but.

To protect ourselves we may have to put some extra into Phil defence.