Civ Choice

[Kloreep]

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/reference/leader_picker.html is a good page for looking at all the civs.

Trait-wise, there are a few that seem best to me. Aggressive is an obvious one, making Barracks and Dry Docks cheaper; and better yet, it would give our melee and gunpowder units the edge of Combat I, an advantage that all non-Aggressive civs won't be able to have in their own troops.

UnO has convinced me that Creative would be good. Theatres and Colosseums are cheaper, which give us a few happy faces, plus a very effective culture slider whenever we need to combat War Weariness or just aren't able to get all the happiness we need through other means. Also, cities start with +2 culture as soon as they're founded. That could help us with early expansion. That point is how UnO sold me on this trait. Since we aren't going to be into outright conquest, we had better get a good initial settlement pattern.

Financial gives us more commerce. This is a potential edge in science, and can also be used to fund our hopefully large army.

There are some others that might be good, but these are my top 3. The three leaders with these traits are Huayna Capac of the Inca (Aggressive/Financial & Quechua), Kublai Khan of the Mongols (Aggressive/Creative & Keshik), and Catherine of Russia (Creative/Financial & Cossack).

Right now, I'm leaning toward Kublai Khan. Creative to grab land and Aggressive to help make some of our troops better quality, plus the UU is not ultra-early when I'm doubtful our services will be needed, a problem I see with the Quechua.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I agree with the top three, but in a different order.

Creative is purely for land grabbing, as we are not going to be attacking to expand our borders, cultural pressure is needed. 5 turns after city founded, expand. Theaters are one of the best for pushing culture. Cheap ones are just gravy.

Aggressive: I'm not 100% sold on it, frankly.

Financial: IMO the single most potent trait in the game. Gold supports the military. Gold researches, Gold supports more cities. GOLD uber alles.

Hence, I would lean to Catherine as not only being Creative/Financial, but also starting with mining and just a stones throw from bronze...

Huayna Capac I'ld actually place second. Financial, and starting with Mysticism would virtually guarantee an early religion.

Kublai Khan a close third. On a fast track to neither mining nor religion, but starting with the wheel, researching animal husbandry early/first for ponies has a certain appeal.

[polarnomad]

Hi guys!

You might want to think about Organized too. XP for our units will play a big role in making them desirable for hire, and the civics that give the best XP (Vassalage and Theocracy) will cost us a pretty penny. Not to mention, if we ever decide to implement Police State to decrease war weariness... And courthouses at half production cost will also help finances.

If we were to use Aggressive, it gives 1XP, theocracy and vassalage 2XP each, combined with cheap barracks everywhere 4XP, then win one battle against some barbs: makes 10XP, which is what? 4 promotions?

So, maybe Tokugawa... although I understand the need for early culture.

My first 2 euro cents to add to the brainstorming! ;)

EDIT: Too bad there's no Organized/Creative...

[Kloreep]

Aggressive gives 1XP?

I haven't actually played Aggressive yet, but I thought it simply gave melee & gunpowder units Combat I. Which is actually more powerful than 1 XP since you get a promotion without upping the XP cost of the next promotion, although the limit to only two types of units is the downside.

And definitely true on Organized. I think Vassalage and Theocracy will both be go-to civics. Hmm... it all depends on terrain, of course, but I wonder whether Financial or Organized would serve us better on the monetary front. I do like Organized's cheap buildings better.

[polarnomad]

Sorry, yes you are right it gives Combat 1, which normally would come at 2XP... That was a brainfart on my part. I guess I was thinking 1st promotion.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Kloreep
I haven't actually played Aggressive yet


Mr builderer is itching to be banned from the team....:rant:


;)

[Kloreep]

Hey, I haven't really played anything but Ind-Spr yet. :p Only game I've actually played to completion.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Just keep in mind we aint gettin no 'fast workers' here.

My issue with Tokugawa is similar to my issue with Khan. Starting with fishing and the wheel puts us on no fast track to anything really impressive tech wise.

Organized really shines in the later difficulties, and when you are big. I have a hard time believing this will get settings above regent or so, and I doubt we'll have many cities. As such I would think Financial will more than make up in the +gold what Organized would save in the upkeep.

[polarnomad]

So are you saying that you really would like to play as Catherine?

I guess the first turns are going to be especially critical for us, since our main handicap is going to be our inability to expand beyond what others allow us to in the beginning, or if someone goes on a war rampage and burns cities in our vicinity to the ground (which isn't likely).

So, having a scout to explore and creative to expand boundaries quickly, will be key. We're going to have to do some pretty deft maneuvering to block others nearby from expanding into as much territory as possible.

My problem with financial is that it is heavily dependent on terrain and resouces for the monetary advantages to kick in. If the initial expansion goes badly, then financial might not be much help.

That said, I have played as Catherine quite a bit, and she has been one of my favorite leaders, and of course there are going to be disadvantages to any leader so...

[UnOrthOdOx]

I could be convinced to use practically anyone who doesn't have 'fast worker' as a UU. ;) I strongly reccomend a 'chop and pop' strategy with whoever we go with. As such mining would be the best tech to start with. We space the first city or two out far enough to backfill a city or two, and we should be able to procure a nice bumper of culture to lock off a piece of land with Creative, or with some rushed whatever doodads that add 1 culture. (obelisk?)

Course, depends on the map somewhat there.

/me eyeballs Kloreep...

I also believe we should heavily consider using pretty tight, overlapping spacing, in the event we have little space.

/me dodges chairs being thrown

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by polarnomad
I guess the first turns are going to be especially critical for us, since our main handicap is going to be our inability to expand beyond what others allow us to in the beginning, or if someone goes on a war rampage and burns cities in our vicinity to the ground (which isn't likely).

Yep. I probably would be against "wasting" a trait on Creative - not a big fan of the +culture normally - if we weren't in this predicament.

Originally posted by polarnomad
My problem with financial is that it is heavily dependent on terrain and resouces for the monetary advantages to kick in. If the initial expansion goes badly, then financial might not be much help.

Keep in mind that you can get 2 commerce from a lot of other sources besides resource tiles. Coast, lakes, a Hamlet or above (only takes 10 turns to grow from a Cottage), plus I think Watermills and some Windmills can get you there... Financial will have at least some use, unless we find ourselves in the middle of our DG's Great Plains of a Pangea.

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I could be convinced to use practically anyone who doesn't have 'fast worker' as a UU. ;)

Don't knock the fast worker. :p Now that I'm playing with regular two-move workers, I'm seeing how many worker turns get added up by the Fast ones from being saved here and there. I mean, they can move onto a hill/forest tile and start work immediately. That's +1 worker turn per hill or forest tile. :eek:

That said, I agree, we need a military UU.

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I strongly reccomend a 'chop and pop' strategy with whoever we go with. As such mining would be the best tech to start with. We space the first city or two out far enough to backfill a city or two, and we should be able to procure a nice bumper of culture to lock off a piece of land with Creative, or with some rushed whatever doodads that add 1 culture. (obelisk?)

Course, depends on the map somewhat there.

The great thing about Creative is we won't need Obelisks. It only takes 5 turns to pop Creative borders, by which time the Obelisk would only be half done at best. And while I can't recall the next border expansion, I believe it's a little far off to waste time on an Obelisk, especially since we'd have to research Mysticism.

Between your two posts, it looks to me like our early game strategy is taking shape, at least if we pick Catherine. :b: Hunting gives us Scouts with which to explore quickly, while Mining puts us right on a path for Bronze Working to get some chopping action going to pump the settlers out to follow the scouts. Then Creative gives us greater ability to box off land for ourselves. I'm really starting to like Catherine.

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
* UnOrthOdOx eyeballs Kloreep...

I also believe we should heavily consider using pretty tight, overlapping spacing, in the event we have little space.

* UnOrthOdOx dodges chairs being thrown

:lol:

I'm actually not against that. For one, you sometimes have to tightly space to accomodate the land shape and resource spread.

CxxxC spacing I would certainly be fine with. Especially with specialists, and also considering health won't rise to 20 until much later in the game, Optimal City Placement (making the city radii not overlap) is still not the way to go in my opinion.

Now, if you're talking CxxC spacing, which is the closest it can get in CIV anyway, you will have to convince me. With some happy/healthy resources and some basic buildings, cities can easily go beyond size 8; and since CIV penalizes you for cities but not for buildings, tight spacing is not the powerhouse it once was back in CIII. And size 8 is about all that's useful with CxxC spacing; maybe you can have a specialist or two and go up to 10, but that's assuming that all 8 tiles are workable and worth working.

Which brings me to my final point: while it's good to discuss city placement beforehand, we really need to see the map. If we land in a patch of Eden, a little bit of CxxC may help us make use of our awesome start as fast and efficiently as possible. If we land by a desert or another unsavory bit of geography, even CxxxC may be too close due to all the tiles that won't be usable. I've found that in CIV, the quality of the tiles matters a whole lot in determing how much you want to overlap.

[Kloreep]

I'd also like to say, though, my mind is not totally made up. Kublai Khan still looks good to me, and really, the only early-game downside I see between him and Catherine is he doesn't start with Mining, which I don't see as a deal-breaker.

I'm still worried about our chances of being hired as a non-Aggressive civ. Vassalage/Theocracy and Barracks will help, but ultimately, it won't be anything better than a spiritual civ could do with a war-time civics switch. Aggressive gives our melee and gunpowder units a real powerful head start on promotions, even if our other types of units don't get that advantage. Better to have at least some good combat units than to be another joe average running Vassalage and Theo (which we won't even have available immediately).

[UnOrthOdOx]

It's always with the worker-turns with you builderers, isn't it?

;)

Well, we're going to want a warrior or two before we pump our settler anyway, so mining may not be so critical. Just a difference between worker first or warrior. It's still quicker to go worker first and chop rush later by about 8 turns or so. Maybe less depending on terrain, which we wouldn't see until we decided on civ anyway...

And, who knows, with Khan the choice of animal husbandry first is an option if resources suggest that route. A cow or two can make up for lack of chopping quite quickly. And if we got real lucky and got horses as well, it might pay to hold off on bronze all together

[Enigma_Nova]

The main issue behind our renting units isn't their promotions, it's that we spend the time and gold to produce them.

We want to be able to make as many marketable goods as we possibly can. Spi would be a big help, as Missionaries are just as sellable as Units - Usuff/Hered, OrgRel/Theo and the early switch to Slave would merit such a trait.
That, and we're going to need to increase our borders and get happy faces in ways other than Conquering and Claiming resources.

What else would help? Org for many cities, if we get a decent expansion thing going and we sort of sneak in behind razing forces, Exp for Pop, Ind for the Pyramids to get Usuff (Let's face it, what else would we use the mountains of gold for?). Phil is bleh - helps us overall but doesn't help towards anything in particular.

--

What techs would we need? Starting close to Horse Riding, Bronze working or Monotheism (Hey, Missionaries are sellable) are the goals, so Mining, Hunting and Myst are the go techs.

Selling Religions could be damn useful. If we can get 2 of the 3 early religions and then somehow grab another (Oracle -> Code of Laws?), the price of our missionaries will skyrocket.

To this end, I'm thinking of the following civs:
1. Huyana Capac
2. Asoka
3. Montezuma
4. Isabella
5. Gandhi (if we go for a Pyramids n Oracle strat)

Capac doesn't have a sellable UU,
Asoka doesn't have a sellable UU and isn't as strong in the early game as some others,
Montezuma's UU has a very narrow window of opportunity, and Agg/Spi leaves a bit to be desired in a tech race
Isabella has weak traits and the downside of fishing
and Gandhi is just bleh - Industrious will be a total waste between our initial gambit and metal casting, and from then a waste 'till we can actually get a shot at another wonder.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
Selling Religions could be damn useful. If we can get 2 of the 3 early religions and then somehow grab another (Oracle -> Code of Laws?), the price of our missionaries will skyrocket.

Just a comment on this for now.

I don't see how this would benefit anyone else than us... Unless of course if we forfeit the holy cities too. Why would someone buy a missionary if we're just going to get extra income from them spreading our religion to their cities. We might as well just spread them ourselves for free.

[UnOrthOdOx]

God, there's games on Monarch I'ld happily buy a missionary from my neighbor and spread it to the rest of my cities on my own.

That said, I have a hard time seeing this game get the difficulty level where such a thing is needed purely for happiness.

I think it would be more interesting in our allowing other teams to pay us to distribute their religion through our lands.

I'll respond more thuroughly to EN's post when I get time this afternoon.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I think it would be more interesting in our allowing other teams to pay us to distribute their religion through our lands.

Hehe... Now there's an interesting idea. :)

[rush]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I think it would be more interesting in our allowing other teams to pay us to distribute their religion through our lands.


I am not sure if the concept of spreading religions in a MP will work. Who will want to give the competition +1/+2 gold per turn ? Unless there is an exchange of religion, or he wants to go into free religion civic.

And would helping other teams to spread the religions to our target be abusing the "trust" the target gave us in giving us access to their land ?

My preference is to play Financials Civ. Always seem to do well playing them, even without finding a religion.

Hm... edited. I just realise you are talking about spreading religion to our land. That's fine. :) In fact, we can also help them to spread to their land too if they prefer to use their cities to build more important infrastructure buildings.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by rush
In fact, we can also help them to spread to their land too if they prefer to use their cities to build more important infrastructure buildings.

Wow, this is taking the concept of making money to new levels! :)

Vox: Hey Mercs! Here's 300G to spread our beloved Islam through your lands.
Mercs: Insh Allah! :D
Vox: Oh, and while you're at it, how much for you to build 6 missionaries and spread the word to other cities in our vast domain?
Mercs: Well, let the merc team consult, but I'm sure we can find a fitting price, our brothers of the faith.

Taking this one step further, we could even spread someone's religion to their enemy's lands... :naughty:

[UnOrthOdOx]

Taking this one step further, we could even spread someone's religion to their enemy's lands...
I don't think so.

Not without open borders, and I foresee this game not seeing many of those.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
The main issue behind our renting units isn't their promotions, it's that we spend the time and gold to produce them.

I absolutely agree. This is why I'm not 100% sold on Aggressive being a given. In fact, were it not for the cheap barracks, I'ld suggest avoiding it.

We want to be able to make as many marketable goods as we possibly can. Spi would be a big help, as Missionaries are just as sellable as Units - Usuff/Hered, OrgRel/Theo and the early switch to Slave would merit such a trait.
Early religion is going to be a crap shoot IMO. Either allot of teams are going to go for it, or few teams. Even given only 1/2 teams going, there's only 3 religions.

I'ld much rather see us go slavery straight off and start on cranking units.

That, and we're going to need to increase our borders and get happy faces in ways other than Conquering and Claiming resources.

Hence my view of Creative and utilizing theaters. Free border expansion, usefull lux (sorry, "culture") slider.

What techs would we need? Starting close to Horse Riding, Bronze working or Monotheism (Hey, Missionaries are sellable) are the goals, so Mining, Hunting and Myst are the go techs.
Only agree on 2/3 there. Mining, hunting. As I mention, I don't think we'll be wanting to roll the dice on religion, nor do I believe OUR religion will be sellable. As mentioned in the thread, spreading someone ELSES religion, however... :$$$:

Selling Religions could be damn useful. If we can get 2 of the 3 early religions and then somehow grab another (Oracle -> Code of Laws?), the price of our missionaries will skyrocket.

I am very much against attempting to beeline and grab 2/3 religions. This would put off our capability to build usefull units, and we, of all teams, need to consider defense first and foremost. We will be the biggest 'threat' in the eyes of a number of teams as a neighbor.

I am going to throw Philosophical out there as a possible trait though.

Specifically, I would toss out Frederick and Elizabeth as strong candidates.

Frederick, like Catherine, starts with hunting and mining. Creative/Phil, allows for early exploring from the free scout, Bronze beeline for pop and chop strategy to get an extra settler or two coupled with creative to close off an area all to ourselves. Phil can quite adequately solve cash problems on it's own merrit, getting some merchants, scientists, or prophets joined in the right cities. The one downside is an extremely late UU.

Elizabeth being Phil/Fin would basically amount to us not needing concern ourselves overly about gold. Probably amount to us being capable of supporting the most troops with this combo. Starts with Mining, and fishing. And don't put fishing too low, either. It does lead to galleys quick...a means to deliver our troops...

I would just love to see at least one GP auctioned this game. For pure hilarity it will make of the public forum.

[inamirrordarkly]

I just got done playing a game with Kublai Khan and the early border expansion due to Creative was very impressive.

[polarnomad]

So, which civ are we going with then? I would like to focus my single player games on whomever we choose.

[polarnomad]

Since it looks like the "preferential" civ selection method is going to win, I've decided to post my vote.

5 Kublai Kahn
4 Catherine the Great
3 George Washington
2 Tokugawa
1 Huayna Capac

[troglodyte]

Said by UnO in the Analyzing tech tree thread:

"Chances are very good we will have at least one resource of bronze, ponies, or Iron."

I have had the experience, several times, of playing Mongols, Spanish and Russians and not having ponies. This does tend to obviate the UU, and you usually have to be a bit aggressive to convince the other civs to let you have access to the horses. I cannot see that the other teams will give us horses if we don't have access to them to start with. Can we take this chance? I've never been without at least one source of the metals within easy reach, and if we crap out and get horses instead of metals, at least they are useful to whatever civ we play.

It may be better to take another civ that doesn't have reliance on horses, but with good/appropriate leader traits - and I leave that to the experts to convince me.

[polarnomad]

IMO, UUs are overrated. I don't think I have ever been too concerned about not being able to produce any particular civ's UU.

My choices for civs in this game are not based on UUs.

[troglodyte]

Originally posted by polarnomad
My choices for civs in this game are not based on UUs.

Okay, fair enough. Actually, I didn't think that they were, anyway, my point was more general. I do realise that the UUs only give a short-term advantage and this window does close rapidly.

Although I do agree in general with your feeling about the UUs, we may need to think a bit about UUs as we are in the business of selling units - the more useful the unit, the more demand. Redcoats, Musketeers, SEALs etc may be more useful than Praetorians, Quechuas, Skirmishers etc., and this means that we may need to look at which traits/units would be most useful vis-a-vis other traits/units.

I personally would go with Washington or perhaps even Rooseveldt as the Fin/Org or Ind/Org with a late UU that we get earlier in the end-game than other mid-to-late UU's may give our clients that last minute advantage they are needing to win/settle scores etc. Money can buy you guns and butter, and the cheaper UU at that late stage may be useful to us.

But the arguments in favour of Creative are also quite compelling.

I personally do not have strong opinions on which civ, mainly because I don't really know enough about it to comment in great detail. Trogs will go with the consensus.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I really see Creative as nearly neccessary.

I would rank civs:
Catherine:
For reasons mentioned above, and the UU is a very good time for Mercs. Early UU's will not be able to be hired out.
Frederick:
Creative, and creative use of Philosophical will solve both gold (and therefore troop numbers) and border problems. Panzer is a little late, but hirable.
Kublai Khan:
Aggressive will entice folks. Creative again to help with the borders. We'll need to focus on gold allot in the infrastructure. UU will be marginally usefull, coming a little early, might be hired for tech though.
Huyan capac:
Self explainatory. Bad UU for Mercs.
Elizabeth:
As I said, I think this translates into the most GPT, therefore the most troops.

[Kloreep]

That actually looks like a pretty good list to me, UnO. I'd probably swap Kublai and Frederick, though.

Re: Organized, I don't think it's the best trait. The cheap lighthouses may come in handy, but courthouses and the civics reductions primarily help civs that have already grown large. It's traits like Creative and Financial that I think would help us grow large and powerful in the first place. Between Organized and Financial, I've come to prefer Financial.

[snoopy369]

Please send a list of civs when you can :)

[Nikolai]

I have very little experience with these civs, but I'd lean towards Catherine.:) Who knows, perhaps her "diplomatic attitude" could help us in the deal making?:cute:

[UnOrthOdOx]

That actually looks like a pretty good list to me, UnO. I'd probably swap Kublai and Frederick, though.

Done, and sent in to snoopy.

[Nikolai]

Becoming schizo, UnO?;)

[UnOrthOdOx]

Becoming?

I've been diagnosed 'borderline' before.

[UnOrthOdOx]

wow.

Luck is not with us. We ended up with Frederick. The only team to get their 3rd pick, and only one other had to go with their 2nd.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Initial reaction to other's Choices:

The Bad: 3 other teams are Creative. Allot of folks thinking along the same lines?

The Good: Only one other starts with Mining. Pop and chop is still a very valid strat.

More Good: 4!!! teams picked Financial. yay, they'll hopefully have gold for us!!

Only one other team is Philosophical! GP Auction!!!!

[Kloreep]

Half price Unis! Yay! :bored: ;)

Ah well. I would have preferred to get one of the top two picks, but we can make do. The starting techs are excellent.

[polarnomad]

Sprechen wir jetzt nur auf Deutsch? :cute:

[troglodyte]

We could always get people to cede cities to us so we can build their Unis for them - for a price of course.

We get Panzers, but not Tigers?

Have any of you guys seen "Downfall"? We should avoid using Adolf's strategy, I guess.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Ich sprecht ein bissen.

[rush]

Tried 4 games yesterday with Frederick (Emperior level, continental setting, played upto beginning of Alphabet/Iron Working). Not that easy to play.

The advantage were 1. creative - border expanded very fast, hence possible to close off chokepoint quickly. 2. Hunting - can build extra scout, better odds with huts, 3. Can chop forest once bronze is found, 4. Axeman rush if copper is nearby.

Disadvantages were 1. started on coast a few times but had no fishing tech, 2. started on island two times, so the scout became quite useless. 3. unable to build cottages for a while, 4. if no copper nearby, then need to learn Archery to build archers to protect against barbs

Most of the time, i found myself moving & settling on a plain hill tile with freshwater (for the extra hammer), built scout, then warrior and changed to worker when population grew to 2, used the worker to chop some trees to build settlers. Researched bronze working at 100% tech rate, which was possible after getting golds from huts. Scouts should end turn on forest, jungle or forest hill tiles for extra protection. After finishing bronze working, what to research depended on the situation, it's usually the wheel to road to the bronze, fishing or agriculture when there were relevant resources, masonary when there was stone or archery when the copper was far away.