Geheimes aus ND (Secrets from ND)

[Darekill]

This was my post when I read about the fact that Lux invicta threadned our Settler. They wanted WC for a save passage home. If I recall they even told us that they were able to kill the settler if we didn't comply which we never belived.


Die bekommen von uns nur eines auf dem silbernen Tablett serviert wenn sie frech bleiben, eine 1A Kriegserklärung.

Im Prinzip können sie nicht viel schneller produzieren als wir, schon gar nicht, wenn wir den zweiten Siedler nach erstellung des Bogenschützen richtig ausspielen.

Bewege den Siedler bloß nicht in richtung Neu theben, ich kann mir vorstellen das die ihn verfolgen mit dem Krieger, also bewegen wir ihn solange, bis wir ihn schützen können. Mit dem Bogenschützen!

Ausserdem werden wir ein wenig bluffen und mit einem Angriff auf sie drohen. Schließlich könnte ja einer unserer Bogenschützen (die wir gar nicht haben) dem Scout Arne folgen, um deren Hauptstadt anzugreifen.

Gleichzeitig sollten wir Kontakt zu den Warmongers aufnehmen und versuchen sie gegen eine Tech gegen Lux aufzuhetzen!

Die spielen doch die Söldner, also ich bin mir nicht zu fein welche anzuheuern!


Translation:
They get only one thing out of us on a silver platter. A declaration of war!

they can not produce faster than we can. If we are able to found the second city after we've build an archer to protect our settler they are even slower.

Do not move our settler in direction Neu Theben as i can imagin they will follow him. Just move it around untill it gets protection.

We should also bluff a bit and threaten them with an atack. one of the archers that we do not posess at all could be following the scout arne to raid their capitol. At least we could tell them this.

Of cours we must contact the warmongers to get them fight Lux even if we have to give them one Tech for it.
They say they are mercenarys I'm not to good to buy one for our cause.

[vondrack]

Wow, publishing your nice little Geheimes will be much more difficult than just pasting and copying most of us here can use... thanks for the translation! :b:

[Darekill]

How to make friends. Friends that cooperate to the very end.


This was probably the nail that fixed the alliance with GoW in the borconian war (Bobian War for you ;))


Borc:
ich habe gerade länger mit GF gechattet. 15 Runden macht ihnen nichts. Auch dass sie kein Eisen haben macht ihnen nichts. Sie sind sehr daran interessiert, dass die 3 Nord-Staemme aufpassen, dass Spanien nicht alle luxuries kriegt. Sie saehen uns gerne im Sueden bei der Seide so schnell wie moeglich!

Darekill:
Die Chinesen werden mir immer Symphatischer! Ganz ehrlich! Die sind mir mittlerweile fast lieber als die Spanier. Denen traue ich gerade wegen ihrer zur schau gestellten freundlichkeit viel weniger!

Also Reiterei gegen eine Technik zu tauschen die wir erst in 15 Runden haben, das nenne ich Vertrauensbeweis!



Transltion:
Borc:
I just chattet with Ghengis Farb, they don't care that we need another 15 turns and that they do not have any iron doesn't bother them either. They are very eager to see that the three northtribes (GoW, Lux & ND) do not let get Spain all the luxurys they'd like to see us in the south close to the silks asap.

Darekill:
I come to like those chinese more and more. Really i do like them now even more than spain. I do not trust those spanish guys they are just too friendly too eager to show how much they like us.

To trade horseback riding for a tech that we will get in 15 turns that's a proof of trust.



comment: At that time we wer not sure at all if we should ally with spain or with China but thogh spain always tried to talk nice they actually gave less than the GoW and though i started very sceptical against "warmongers" and rather favorable for nice talking "roleplayers" their open and trustworthy diplomatic skills changed that opinion of mine rather fast.

[Darekill]

The situation: Vox has just invaded borconia and whirls up a lot of dust with it's immortals.

Someone gave the advice not to move our swordsman to the aid of GoW

My thoughts about this menace:


Darekill
Das sind auch meine Gedanken. Beim Krieg gegen Lux hat GoW laut KRIEG KRIEG geschrieen und zwei Alibi Horseman geschickt. Nun drehen wir den Spieß um.

Bis Spanien im Norden ist, dauert das. Die haben zwar ein paar Warrior rumlaufen aber die kann man ja in der Pfeife Rauchen gegen die Imortals der Vox'e

Wir schicken ersteinmal zwei Schwerties und GoW kann seine Reiter testen. Wir rufen aber am lautesten.
Ich denke gar nicht daran die schwerties aus Marlowa wegzuziehen die brauchen wir für Spanien



Translation:
Tis are my thoughts as well. In the war against Lux Gow screamed loud WAR WAR but did send just to pitty horseman. Now we return that favour.

Till Spain gets to the north it'll take a long time. Thea have some Warriors up there but they can't do a damn against the immortals of Vox.

We'll send two swordsman and GoW can test their horseman. We shout the loudest. I do not think about moving our Swordsmen out of Marlowa we'll need them for the spain campaign.


camment:

That GoW and ND will attack Roleplay was already fix at this time!

The strength we planned for the assault was: 10 Swordsman from ND and 10 Horseman from GoW the assault was delayed longer and longer until finally the great borconian war broke out by us atacking GS citys that they got from RP.

[Donegeal]

Wow! So in reality... The Brotherhood of Bob/Borconia was MUCH weaker then GoW thought!

What a BLUFF we all gave!

Thank GOD Vox pulled out (and gave us a city for our troubles... :D )!!!

[Ennet]

Originally posted by Darekill
The situation: Vox has just invaded borconia and whirls up a lot of dust with it's immortals.

Someone gave the advice not to move our swordsman to the aid of GoW

My thoughts about this menace:




Translation:
Tis are my thoughts as well. In the war against Lux Gow screamed loud WAR WAR but did send just to pitty horseman. Now we return that favour.


Well if im not too mistaken it was pretty much that we didn't have anything else than the pitty horseman to send. We were pressing hard enought to get thoose 10 horsies for the spain campain..

[Darekill]

This is something we know now. would we have known then we'd have invaded you that's prety sure!

We really estimated that you had about 20 or so.

Beeing naiv i know...

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Darekill
This is something we know now. would we have known then we'd have invaded you that's prety sure!


Proving that ND is cunning, evil, implacable and dastardly. All the qualities I look for in a <s>woman</s> ally. :cool:

[DeepO]

And here we are, thinking that we needed to keep our analysis tricks out of the hands of other teams. Part of this is of course that they are available in muliple places for those willing to look around.

We thought to keep everyone in the dark, but clearly there are instances where we would have been helped if we shared what we assumed of others, and how we got the information. We always had a relatively good idea of everyone's military strength, even then. All you need is to have met someone in game...

BTW, one of the last tricks we started to use, is to analyse how many shields were in each city's build queue. I don't know if everyone knows this, but by analysing the costs of sabotage, you can determine to the shield how many shields are in each build queue. If you follow this over a couple of turns, it's fairly easy to see what every city is building, what it's capacity is, and also if possible wonder builds are in danger because someone else will reach a prebuild faster.

DeepO

[vondrack]

Good Lord... :dizzy:

[Krill]

That is how we managed to use the UN as a prebuild for the Internet. We could have built the UN, but instead we held Tempest back at the last moment, ( we had sped up research on Miniturisation so that we could change a couple of turns earlier), and built the Internet.

That added alot of beakers, or would have if we had not been invaded...

[Darekill]

Phew...
You see we're bloody Amateurs that don't know what they do by beeing such amateurs we play quite well I think....

P.S. threre was never ever one single spreadsheet in use for ND....

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Darekill
P.S. threre was never ever one single spreadsheet in use for ND....
... Nor for GS. Or at least none I'm aware off :D

DeepO

[Krill]

I think Cort used one, but that might be it...

[DeepO]

Apart from the UN prebuild off ND, it was a close race to the prebuild of GoW (Apollo, IIRC). We were speculating which of the two would win, even if we could inch just ahead by one turn ;)

But as Krill said, it didn't matter in the end :(

DeepO

[DeepO]

back to the spreadsheets: if you've got many cities, I think they become too large and cumbersome to use. You simply can't keep foreseeing every single wf move over the next 10 turns, especially not if pollution comes into play. After a while it's just easier to try to think 2 or 3 turns ahead for each city, and have a general idea where you're heading.

It also has to do with our close city spacing: too many combinations to foresee in a spreadsheet format, you've got to play it out and try stuff.

DeepO

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DeepO
Apart from the UN prebuild off ND, it was a close race to the prebuild of GoW (Apollo, IIRC). We were speculating which of the two would win, even if we could inch just ahead by one turn ;)

But as Krill said, it didn't matter in the end :(

DeepO

I don't remember what was our prebuild in Killdaria for the UN. It could not have been Apollo since we never demobilized after the Lego War. In the event ND beat us to the UN by one turn which forced us to switch back to the Manhattan Project.

And the only reason we built it in Killdaria is because it was supposed to be simbolic of unity (Killdaria was the old ND city of Dar-el-Killam), if not we could have built it in Imperial City or some other big-shield city and slashed some 2 turns in its build.

Oh well, the Manhattan Project was the warmongerish thing to build :p

[Krill]

So the mob bug was helping your prebuild in Killdaria?

[Master Zen]

what's the mob bug?

[DeepO]

Krill, I'm not sure they were helped by the mob bug. I don't think it's possible for a palace prebuild (palaces can't be built under mob, right?) If they used the Manhatten for a prebuild, there is a big chance they were, either with intent or not.

And yes, MZ, it only was one turn. We thought you were going for Manhatten, not the UN.

For those not in the know: there is a bug during mobilization that, if you've got wrong intent, can be used to gain the mob bonus when you're not entitled to it. It basically is the following: not all allowed builds during mob gain the bonus. However, Civ only checks whether it has to give the bonus or not whenever they governor suggests a new build, or whenever some terrain change (pollution, irr) happens.

During war, your governor will always suggest something defensive or offensive to build (e.g. tank), which receives the bonus. Now, after suggestion you can change this to e.g. a settler, and as the bonus is not checked again, you will gain it, as it still remembers the bonus setting from the tank. And it will keep on giving the bonus until either terrain has changed (pollution or improvement), or the next build is chosen by the governor.

There are some tweaks to it, but basically it can give a GA for a limited number of buildings if you have a partner where you can declare war-peace to on every occasion you want. This includes prebuilds, I thought. We ran into to it about once every turn, where we improved terrain after the build selection to delete the bonus where we weren't supposed to get it, and to get it where we weren't.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Master Zen
In the event ND beat us to the UN by one turn which forced us to switch back to the Manhattan Project.
MZ, if you want, I can check how many tiles difference there was. It was less than a turn :p (but we were still ahead of you both :cute: )

DeepO

[Master Zen]

AFAIK mobilizations cuts down on the improvements you can build and those which are left are those which can receive it. Both the Manhattan Project and (surprisingly) the UN appeared on our mobilized city builds list. The old obsolete wonders like the GL and Oracle did not niether did any of the small wonders.

Anyway, to be honest, GoW never thought this was actually a bug. We deliberately switched to mobilization on both occasions while on peacetime builds to finish them off quickly but we knew quite well that mobilization was to last until we were legitimately offered peace, in this case our first mobilization lasted until Lego/RP were killed, and our second mobilization lasted until GS was killed.

We thought GS also used the same tactic since I recall you also mobilizing while still doing some peacetime builds. I had no clue that was both a bug and that tile imporvements corrected it. Furthermore I also recall GS de-mobilizing without having received a peace treaty (to build the Internet I'm sure) in-game. A fake war with RP perhaps?

[Krill]

Nope, the Internet can be built in Mob. Any wonder that is Militeristic (and the internet has every attribute, as it triggers every civs GA) can be built in mob.

[Master Zen]

Yet you did de-mobilize without a peace treaty. On the turn we nuked you we calculated GS's industrial production in the 500-shield range, something which was definitely not mobilized.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Yet you did de-mobilize without a peace treaty. On the turn we nuked you we calculated GS's industrial production in the 500-shield range, something which was definitely not mobilized.
But you nuked them only after we were killed off, no? GS would be auto-demobilized then.

[DeepO]

MZ, it's not about building peaceful buildings in mob, that always has been possible. But, for the UN for instance, you're not supposed to get the bonus.

If you start to build this wonder during mob, you've got a good chance you hit the bug: if you select the build from the little window, the governor most likely had suggested a tank or so. After that screen is displayed, the bonus isn't checked again, so you keep receiving the bonus even after changing the build orders to the UN. If you would be hit by pollution in that city, however, the bonus is rechecked again, and your spt is adjusted as it is a building which is not supposed to get extra shields.

You can exploit this: If you switch any city to a tank, you can improve some terrain (e.g. irr+mine) so the city gets the bonus. After that, change the build to a wonder, and you get too many spt.

As to us declaring war just to get out of mob for one turn: I'm not sure anymore, you've got to ask Aeson. But it's possible we did this a while after the Lego war ended. We felt that because in normal circumstances Lego wold have been gone it should be allowed. We did it at most once, though, never during the buildup to the Lego war. Our mob was timed so all our peacetime-buildings were started before hitting the button. And believe me, in some of the cities this hurt as I would've loved an extra market or lib.

DeepO

[Aeson]

The first crash involving Lego's "elimination" from the game was when Zargon X tried disbanding their final Settler in 1310AD, their turn. At that point, it was a bug that kept us in mobilization.

We had a fake war with RP to get around that bug once it became clear Lego weren't going to be able to be eliminated due to the bug. RP declared war in 1330AD, their turn, and we made peace in 1335AD, our turn.

We had talked about using a fake war before then. If Lego were to go into hiding to keep us from de-mobilizing. Personally, I see no problem with fake war declarations. There were no rules against it, and the precident in this game had been set long ago.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by DeepO
MZ, it's not about building peaceful buildings in mob, that always has been possible. But, for the UN for instance, you're not supposed to get the bonus.

If you start to build this wonder during mob, you've got a good chance you hit the bug: if you select the build from the little window, the governor most likely had suggested a tank or so. After that screen is displayed, the bonus isn't checked again, so you keep receiving the bonus even after changing the build orders to the UN. If you would be hit by pollution in that city, however, the bonus is rechecked again, and your spt is adjusted as it is a building which is not supposed to get extra shields.

You can exploit this: If you switch any city to a tank, you can improve some terrain (e.g. irr+mine) so the city gets the bonus. After that, change the build to a wonder, and you get too many spt.

As to us declaring war just to get out of mob for one turn: I'm not sure anymore, you've got to ask Aeson. But it's possible we did this a while after the Lego war ended. We felt that because in normal circumstances Lego wold have been gone it should be allowed. We did it at most once, though, never during the buildup to the Lego war. Our mob was timed so all our peacetime-buildings were started before hitting the button. And believe me, in some of the cities this hurt as I would've loved an extra market or lib.

DeepO

I'll have to check but IIRC we used the Manhattan Project as a prebuild for the UN, we only switched to the UN the 3 turns before it was supposed to be built since the MP has less shields (800 vs 1000). Then when ND beat us to it, we switched back.

I'm not sure if this triggered the bug, to be honest I still don't quite understand what it is. What I can assure you is that the turn build never changed, i.e. it took 12 turns more or less to build the UN in Killdaria from the start. Also whatever changes to the build in that city were done by right-clicking on the map.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Aeson
The first crash involving Lego's "elimination" from the game was when Zargon X tried disbanding their final Settler in 1310AD, their turn. At that point, it was a bug that kept us in mobilization.

We had a fake war with RP to get around that bug once it became clear Lego weren't going to be able to be eliminated due to the bug. RP declared war in 1330AD, their turn, and we made peace in 1335AD, our turn.

We had talked about using a fake war before then. If Lego were to go into hiding to keep us from de-mobilizing. Personally, I see no problem with fake war declarations. There were no rules against it, and the precident in this game had been set long ago.

You do however understand the exploitish possibilities from fake wars to trigger/untrigger mobilization? Any team could have made fake wars to speed up peace time builds by constantly declaring war/making peace.

I think this is another big precedent that needs to be cleared up in future DGs.

[Krill]

If you accept a peace treaty, you lose the mob bonus before the shields are calculated. Therefore you can not constantly exploit it, but you can set everything on a largish prebuild (tank just about works, MA is slightly better, preferably a battleship), and change it at a certain point. It would take alot of MM and calculation, but it can be done.

Something like this should be outlawed in the other Demogames, PTWDG2, C3CDG, and the future CIVDG, maybe something like any builds that have shields accumulated from mob can only be changed to certain builds (eg tank, inf, destroyer, bomber, worker and settler etc)

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Master Zen
I'll have to check but IIRC we used the Manhattan Project as a prebuild for the UN, we only switched to the UN the 3 turns before it was supposed to be built since the MP has less shields (800 vs 1000). Then when ND beat us to it, we switched back.

I'm not sure if this triggered the bug, to be honest I still don't quite understand what it is. What I can assure you is that the turn build never changed, i.e. it took 12 turns more or less to build the UN in Killdaria from the start. Also whatever changes to the build in that city were done by right-clicking on the map.

All I can say is: try it. Get into mob, set a city to tank, and count your shields. If you feel you get the bonus (don't look at the shields icons in the city view, as these are updated like they should, but the total isn't), switch to e.g. Manhatten. You should have less spt in that city, but the spt remains the same. As such, you get a bonus for the wonder where you're not allowed one.

You can play around with this in city view, which is weird: in a situation where you are receiving the bonus due to the bug, your icons in the little map are updated correctly. You can then make entertainers from the workers, each time deminishing your spt. If you remove all workers, you still have e.g. 25 spt left. You can actually build things at 25 spt, while all your workers are turned into entertainers.

Similar, if you don't receive the bonus but should (e.g. the governor suggested a worker, but you changed it to a tank) the display in the little map is correct, but the calculation isn't. If you now turn workers into entertainers, it will e.g. distract 5 spt from your total each time, even if a size 12 city only has 40 spt left. The result is that if you change everyone to entertainers, you're running -20 spt, with only the city square still producing.

If you're not aware of this bug, it's practically certain you have gained from it, but it's also practically certain you've lost due to it. Some of your cities should have been on e.g. 60 spt, while they only got 45 spt.

DeepO

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Master Zen
You do however understand the exploitish possibilities from fake wars to trigger/untrigger mobilization? Any team could have made fake wars to speed up peace time builds by constantly declaring war/making peace.

I think this is another big precedent that needs to be cleared up in future DGs.

Yep. (on both counts)

Fake wars had already been used, or planned for, multiple times in the game for various reasons (getting around bugs, cancelling trades, leader generation, starting GAs). The mobilization bug had been deemed "The damage has already been done" by Trip. Combining the two would have been more powerful, but still the same fundamental exploits at use.

I'm not sure this mobilization bug used continually would be that much of a difference in this game though. The die was basically cast before Nationalism, as it generally is. And anyways, if all teams can do it, there isn't any advantage.

[DeepO]

I think the big issue is whether someone would try to exploit the bug willingly, or not. It can give a continous GA for your cities if you abuse it, which is very significant. But I doubt anyone would do that in this game... maybe a few of the rule bending stuff was over the edge, but nothing so clearly abusing than this.

As for us: when I discovered the bug in the first turn of mob, it was not clear yet what was causing it. Only a few turns later it was clear... at that time the question arose to publish it or not, but seeing that we were trying to avoid gaining (or losing) from it, and others weren't aware of it, it was no big deal. It does cancel out, more or less, it's just those specific instances like building a wonder where you can really gain from the bug even if you don't know what is going on.

DeepO

[Master Zen]

Well I think that all exploits, even those deemed too abusive to think they'd be considered (like Mobilizing/Fake Wars, GL hoarding, GL triggering, etc. etc.) should explicitly be banned in other games.

[DeepO]

I agree, MZ. But this would not have been an exploit of a dodgy game mechanic, it would have been exploiting a clear bug. At such a moment it's unacceptable no matter the impact of it, and doesn't explicitely have to be banned.

Other exploits are debatable, and there it's a matter of taste. I personally will never vow against transport chaining, as I think it's a fun addendum to the game if you play for it. I enjoyed thinking on how to use chaining best, it was part of the play (and well known at the time for all parties that it was possible). OTOH I will vote against any form of fake wars, unless they are to solve a bug. If they are in, I will try my best to 'use' them too, of course.

DeepO

[Master Zen]

Well I think there are two types of exploits: those that are game un-balancing, and those which aren't.

I think there is little disagreement that exploits like using fake wars to go on/off mobilization, GL hoarding with warriors, or using an ally to trigger your GA have the potential to decisively unbalance the game towards one team's favor.

Other exploits require a certain skill and by themselves are not unbalancing, these would be transport chaining, the F1 trick, using fake wars to cancel deals, etc. These are very subjective. Personally, for example, I think the F1 trick is abhorrent, but others apparently don't think the same.

I think there's little debate the former deserve to be banned. As for the latter, there should be a discussion to try and reach a concensus on what is acceptable and what isn't. Still, the point is moot by now. Only one major DG is yet to start (the C3C ISDG round 2). In Civ4 we'll likely find a plethora of new exploits to ban/permit. :p

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Master Zen
In Civ4 we'll likely find a plethora of new exploits to ban/permit. :p

The great thing is that we get to hold Trip personally responsible for any exploits/bugs, etc. :D

[Master Zen]

I think the biggest exploit in Civ3 is warfare. It's just completely unrealistic and especially after the modern age simply becomes an issue of who knows his way around the exploits better.

I used to be an avid wargamer (I mean "real" wargames) early in my gaming carrer. The good ones, like Steel Panthers and Operation Art of War, truly require one be adept at strategy. Even the simple ones, like Panzer General, required far more strategic skills than exploit skills.

It should not be possible in a game which tries to represent war to be able to conquer an entire continent in one turn just because you managed to sneak in to an undefended city and swarm the rest with settlers.

It should not be possible to be able to marshall your entire army against one spot in one single turn. This would be akin to the Germans sending their entire army to Normandy to crush the landings and then sending it back to the Eastern Front. Totally unrealistic.

It is utterly unrealistic for armies in the industrial/modern age to remain stacked due to their sheer size and the destructive firepower available at the time makes stacking sheer idiocy in real life.

I guess this is the reason that I only really enjoy early and medieval warfare in Civ3, because it lends itself to far less exploits and does require a certain degree of strategy. The Voxian and Bobian wars were testament to this.

Trip, you supposedly like warfare. Please make Civ4 as realistic as possible in this regard.

[vulture]

Agreed with MZ on all counts (and how often does anyone say that???)

I've thought (and said) before that a relatively simple system (like the Panzer General system) could easily work in a civ style game, although the danger is that it would make war an even bigger part of the game than it is now, which is something the designers evidently want to avoid.

Even a very small change - limited stacking, and some kind of rock-paper-scissors relationships would put strategy back in the warfare (as long as infinite railroad movement is removed).

[alva]

Originally posted by vondrack
Good Lord... :dizzy:

Dude, you have no idea...

There's several threads in the GS's forum that sure look like English and even smell like English but believe me, they are not!!
It's some weird mumbo jumbo code that gives <strike>normal</strike> mear mortals a flippin' headache starting page two. ;)