Save Game Thread

[Tassadar500]

This is the thread that you post in once you have sent the game save to the next team. This should be topped.

[Ljube]

Don't you have the topping powerz? :D

[Krill]

Could somebody be so kind as to post the turn order? Then the Team members could send their email adys to the team in front, and speed up the distribution of the game...

[1889]

Team Euphorica: 1400-0200 GMT
Team Bloody Oath Horde: 0600-1800 GMT
Team Babylon: 1700-0500 GMT
Team Desolation Row: 0200-1400 GMT
Team Lost Boys: 2000-0800 GMT
Team Conquest: 0600-1800 GMT

[BigFurryMonster]

Did Team Euphorica receive it from the Game Master yet?

[1889]

Two days ago.

[Beta]

Um - can we make this the turn discussion thread - as that is what it clearly has become. :)

And I will start a Turn Tracking thread - the first post being the play order, and a request to only post the 'sent', and nothing else. All the chit chat around who has it, and how long they have taken to play - or how quick they were, can go here.

[Beta]

Please post 'turn sent' updates in this thread:
Eve of Destruction - Turn Tracking Thread (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129278)

Thanks!

All our other discussion stuff can go here. Nuke - you may want to modify the title of this thread to reflect this ie add "Discussion". Thanks. And both should be topped.

[sabrewolf]

thanks for the tracker thread, but i request the turn year also be posted together with "sent"

[McMeadows]

Good suggestion sabre, it has been implemented.

A little comment on the first turn. It was played yesterday evening (late). We just made it within 24 hours after supply. With a starter pack like this and a first view at the (starting) location at the arrival of the save, it takes extra time to get the first turn played. The decissions to take have a huge impact. Do we move all 3 settlers, or do we found a city at the spot. Everyone can view F11, to see what we decided eventually.

Next turn won't be any problem to play within 12 hours of arrival. With the end situation given, we are allready discussing the next steps. Most decissions will be a logic extrapolation of the decissions in the first turn. Again the extra pressure on the first turn.

I know we're allready on our way. But who knows there will be a next time or maybe we can implement a little allready:

1. I propose the admins distribute screenshts of the starting locations to all the teams at the moment the save is distributed to the first team.

2. The first team gets 36 hours to play their first turn. The other teams 24 hours (they might want to chat while playing and there is the geographical distribution of players).

3, From turn 2 on, 12 hour limit to play the turn for the first age.


Good game to all, and we'll meet on the field...

[Paddy]

Originally posted by 1889
Team Euphorica: 1400-0200 GMT
Team Bloody Oath Horde: 0600-1800 GMT
Team Babylon: 1700-0500 GMT
Team Desolation Row: 0200-1400 GMT
Team Lost Boys: 2000-0800 GMT
Team Conquest: 0600-1800 GMT

thanks for the team order :)

I did not think we had settled on actual time ;)

but had settled on hour limits

[Beta]

Originally posted by McMeadows
With a starter pack like this and a first view at the (starting) location at the arrival of the save, it takes extra time to get the first turn played. The decissions to take have a huge impact. Do we move all 3 settlers, or do we found a city at the spot.

Team Babylon has come up with a better approach. Stock civ is a bit more straighforward, and something we are more familiar with. So we disbanded two of the settlers and two of the workers. Makes the opening move much simpler.

[Tassadar500]

You abandoned two of your workers and settlers? :eek:

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Beta


Team Babylon has come up with a better approach. Stock civ is a bit more straighforward, and something we are more familiar with. So we disbanded two of the settlers and two of the workers. Makes the opening move much simpler.

ya madman :lol:

[Solomwi]

Beta's fond of abandoning. ;)

[1889]

Originally posted by Beta


Team Babylon has come up with a better approach. Stock civ is a bit more straighforward, and something we are more familiar with. So we disbanded two of the settlers and two of the workers. Makes the opening move much simpler.

Good thinking, thats like 17 shields right?

[Beta]

Originally posted by Lord Nuclear
You abandoned two of your workers and settlers? :eek:

Earth to Lord Nuke. Earth to Lord Nuke. Come in please....

[Beta]

Originally posted by 1889


Good thinking, thats like 17 shields right?

Yep. Hey, we want to build a temple. We are the Babylonians after all. We think that long term the culture build will be more important.

The warriors were the tough decision. The military faction wanted to keep them.:cute:

[Gamecube64]

Originally posted by Beta
The warriors were the tough decision. The military faction wanted to keep them.:cute:

Cuz they have axes, that are shiny!

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by Beta


Earth to Lord Nuke. Earth to Lord Nuke. Come in please....


You abandoned the Earth? :eek: :D

[Beta]

Yup - that too. :lol: :lol:

We have ascended to a higher plane of existence.

[Tassadar500]

Don't be looking at our start position. ;)

[snoopy369]

hehe

anywho, albeit mcmeadows is accurate that 12 hours will probably be acceptable for us from here on out, the vote was 3 turns (by my count, i'm tired so i may be wrong), so no skipping until 24 hours has passed until after 3900bc.

That is all ... :)

[Paddy]

Originally posted by snoopy369
hehe

anywho, albeit mcmeadows is accurate that 12 hours will probably be acceptable for us from here on out, the vote was 3 turns (by my count, i'm tired so i may be wrong), so no skipping until 24 hours has passed until after 3900bc.

That is all ... :)

:lol: not sure why you keep saying 3, when the poll shows....

[1889]

Good lord Paddy is that the actual interface you use? Yech.

[sabrewolf]

OMG, that's what i call bad choice! ;)

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot


:lol: not sure why you keep saying 3, when the poll shows....

Because I read the post I posted about how the poll would be interpreted. (And it got 3 more votes for 5 days btw, after i posted that ...)

Still, 3 is the choice, because over 50% of the voters voted for 3 or less. That was the rational for choosing a winner; no one of the choices won 50% of the vote, so instead it was a graduated poll. :)

[Aqualung71]

Snoopy, your reasoning is tantamount to what we Australians call a gerrymander, in political terms.

If you offer enough alternatives, there is no way any alternative will ever reach a majority. You have no way of knowing whether those who voted for 2 or 1 turns would prefer 3 or 5. To do it properly, you should employ a "2 party preferred" system, or what you would call a "run-off".

Failing that, there is no argument that can logically be used to claim that a result that achieved 4 votes is more popular than a result that achieved 9 votes. Your invention of this so-called "graduated" system of interpreting the voting, basically amounts to selecting the answer you want to achieve and finding a ballot-counting methodology that gives the selected answer. :nono:

Edit: And another point - your methodology assumes that the lower numbers are more popular, which statistically is invalid (in my humble opinion). Why not start at the other end?

[1889]

I'm sure that by now everybody is convinced that they would rather just turn on the 12 hour clock next turn. :)

[Tassadar500]

DR, where is the save?

[Aqualung71]

The save is being Desolated.

It will be played and sent tonight, Aussie time ;)

(as long as I have the email address of whomever I'm supposed to be sending it to!)

[Moonbars]

we are not going to pass it on until you all surrender. So there.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Snoopy, your reasoning is tantamount to what we Australians call a gerrymander, in political terms.

If you offer enough alternatives, there is no way any alternative will ever reach a majority. You have no way of knowing whether those who voted for 2 or 1 turns would prefer 3 or 5. To do it properly, you should employ a "2 party preferred" system, or what you would call a "run-off".

Failing that, there is no argument that can logically be used to claim that a result that achieved 4 votes is more popular than a result that achieved 9 votes. Your invention of this so-called "graduated" system of interpreting the voting, basically amounts to selecting the answer you want to achieve and finding a ballot-counting methodology that gives the selected answer. :nono:

Edit: And another point - your methodology assumes that the lower numbers are more popular, which statistically is invalid (in my humble opinion). Why not start at the other end?

Hmm. The intent is to achieve the lowest amount of 'extra' turns that still gives enough time to be organized. I think the voting schema achieves that perfectly.

Actually, it is biased towards the middle numbers, not the lower ones (discussed below). That is intentional. As many people have stated, the fewer turns we delay the better, for the sake of the game - taking a month to do four gameturns is way too long at this stage of the game. OTOH, some people think we need longer to allow for organization of teams. To each his own; this is 'biased' towards a compromise, not towards either side.

This does take into account the majority viewpoint, however. It assumes, quite reasonably, that if I took every single option below the option selected out, that all of the people who had voted for those options taken out would now vote for the lowest remaining option - the one chosen. I could do the same from the high end, in fact, and achieve the same result, assuming there's not randomly a break at 50% exactly (between 2 votes). That's the bias towards lower numbers - only a very small one, really.

IE if I gave everyone the options of 3 or 5 turns and that was it, it is likely (very likely) that a majority of people would select 3 based on the previous voting.

In fact, Lung, the fact that I broke down the 'smaller' turns and didn't break down the 'larger' turns means that the 'larger' turns will tend to indeed have more votes individually (I didn't graduate the turns all the way - ie i didn't have 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10). That was a good part of the reason I wasn't allowing a simple plurality to win. 5 was nearly always going to win (if even 30% of people think >3 is a good idea), getting votes from people who wanted 4 as well as 6,7, and maybe 8. :)

Graduated polls are a very reasonable solution iff there is a graduatable question, like this one, and the voters understand the system before voting. It gives you the effect of a runoff without having a runoff.

Of course it also gives a compromise! In this case, for example, 2 and 5 were the primary vote getters (at one point anywho, I forget the final result). 2 probably would have beaten 5, particularly given the general sense after turn 1 was played by people who played it, but who knows? Anyway, 3 (also not a low vote getter) wins in part because it's a compromise. Had 1 and 3 been the primary vote getters, 2 probably would have won.

Admittedly this makes it less likely that the far extremes will win - but that's not necessarily a bad thing in a compromise situation anyway (where both extremes are the preferred solution).

Of course, if the US used these things for presidential elections, can you imagine who'd be president right now ... :lol:

[Aqualung71]

Errrr......Ralph Nader?

[Aqualung71]

4000BC sent to 1889 for distribution to the Lost Boys, whose email addresses seem to have got.....errr....lost ;)

[1889]

4000 BC received and distributed.

[OPD]

all the saves have be sent to this address too

eoddemogame nospam!! gmail nospam!! com

so as to allow for turn skipping of the next team,

also, if you don't mind can you let either UnO or me know your password....
Although if you don't let us know your password we'll have to use the admin password, which will resent your password and we'll have to set you a new one.... like

"wearetehteamthatsucks"
or
"wehadourturnskippedandallwegotwasthislousypassword

[Beta]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
4000BC sent to 1889 for distribution to the Lost Boys, whose email addresses seem to have got.....errr....lost ;)

And that should be posted here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129278

We have demo game experience to draw on. Having one thread that simply reflects who has the save, without all the other yipping :D that goes on, is very useful. It helps identify in an instant to all where the game is, without having to hunt back through a thread such as this.

Thanks.

[Beta]

Originally posted by OPD
also, if you don't mind can you let either UnO or me know your password....


Done via e-mail to both of you.

[snoopy369]

<--- echoes the sentiment ... USE THE TRACKING THREAD ... :) Thanks!

And Please don't use it for any discussion, at all at all. It gets lost in the shuffle. :)

[Paddy]

hopefully the turn tracker thread will be topped soon ;)

also can there be some clear understanding that the year and the name of the next team are posted

that way all players can clearly see what team it is with

"sent" should not be allowed to cut it...

it does not state at all unto which team it has gone to at all :)

thank you for ya time

see you on the end of my sword soon

blood oath we will

[snoopy369]

Ah yes, as paddy says. :)

It will be topped as soon as someone reads my PMs and acts on them ... *ahem* *ahem* ... or perhaps if UnO has already been modded then he can? I dunno ...

[Paddy]

Snoop, so we will be then having both you and Uno then :)

[snoopy369]

That depends. MarkG has yet to mod anyone, as far as I have been told ... and I'm only willing to get mod powers in this forum (or to get mod powers that don't allow me into your forums, however much i might be able to delete posts in there :lol: )... ;)

[Paddy]

ouch indeed

well it must be clearly stated that the Horde is not looking to have the :evil: shark like creature known as Uno anywhere near, net alone with any authority within our forum ;)

thank you for ya time

see you on the end of my sword soon

blood oath we will

[Beta]

Originally posted by 1889 in the turn tracking thread
4000BC on to Conquest.

...and if I have it correct, it took them/him 8 minutes to play the turn.

I do believe this is a standard we should all aspire to. It can be extended to 10 minutes when in the modern era.:cute:

Well done, Lost Boys. :b:

[Moonbars]

I wonder how they managed to get all their member a chance to look at the start location in that time!

[Beta]

Maybe they are telepathic....

Maybe they have a different form of government...

[Tassadar500]

You can continue to ponder, for we won't be telling you. ;)

[1889]

Originally posted by Beta
Maybe they have a different form of government...

We are a fascist authoritarian autocratic junta ruled by a despotic tyrannical dictator. Worker efficiency is 200% or else.:doitnow!:

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Beta


...and if I have it correct, it took them/him 8 minutes to play the turn.

I do believe this is a standard we should all aspire to. It can be extended to 10 minutes when in the modern era.:cute:

Well done, Lost Boys. :b:

Nope. Aqua posted 9:37 or something in this thread sent (my time) and then 1889 posted at 23:00 on the button sent there in the right thread. ;) Aqua just took almost as long to find the right thread as it took 1889 to *play* the save ... :lol:

[Beta]

Originally posted by 1889


We are a fascist authoritarian autocratic junta ruled by a despotic tyrannical dictator. Worker efficiency is 200% or else.:doitnow!:

:b: Very efficient. It took Babylon 21 minutes to play our turn. I guess that is the price of democracy. It took us more than double your time. :(

[Tassadar500]

Slackers. :shame:

[Beta]

:( I know Nuke. What can I say? :lol: :lol:

[Paddy]

I understand that the save has been sent to me from McMeadows, please note that I am still with clients, and will arrive back at Horde HQ in approx 3 hours from.... mark... now :p

[OPD]

19 hours so far....

[Paddy]

Originally posted by OPD
19 hours so far....

not quite sure what ya mean here old chap

as per the Eve of Destruction - Turn Tracking Thread (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129278) post at 15-02-2005 01:49 am (my time) the save went to Team Babylon, then at 15-02-2005 04:44 am (my time) Team Babylon sent the save onward ;)

so I hope you have restrained yourselves on playing the save old chap :p

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot


not quite sure what ya mean here old chap



I think he is referencing the fact that it had been 19 hours since Beta sent the save to Desolation row.

[Paddy]

ahh I got caught in all them there details that OPD had posted :lol: opps :p it is not like I can count either

off to The Wild Boar for me then. At least the girls can help me with my maths lessons as they pour a few beers for me ;)

[OPD]

No, my bad paddy,

now 23 hours that desolation row have had the save.....

does everyone understand that if a team waits this long next time their turn will be skipped?
Unless they post a message stating a delay or send an email stating a delay.....

[Paddy]

ahh it is all good mate

you may have noticed we in the Horde are a little, just a little, uneasy about others playing our saves and knowing our business :D

so could you please post the time lengths that were agreed upon :)

[OPD]

In accordance with this (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129186) thread, the first 3 turns should be lax.

But after that turns should be played within 12 hours, I don't know how stringent you guys think this should be..... it would be good if everyone could understand and agree to a certain level of strictness so that there would be no come backs or disgruntlement if it does happen.....

It has now been 24 hours, which is fine as this is still only the 3rd turn, but if everyone understands that after 24 hours next turn, without any communication, it will be "skiparoo!"....
If teams aren't ok with that then now is the time to say....

One team this turn have stated they might be a while, which is cool....

[Krill]

Team Euphorica: 1400-0200 GMT
Team Bloody Oath Horde: 0600-1800 GMT
Team Babylon: 1700-0500 GMT
Team Desolation Row: 0200-1400 GMT
Team Lost Boys: 2000-0800 GMT
Team Conquest: 0600-1800 GMT

A question: What if 1889 sends the saave at midnight his time, and the turn is played, for us, by a European? We would have to wait to the following evening to play the save, which is longer than 12 hours (closer 18). According to the rules we would have our turn skipped, but I wasa wondering what the majority opinion on this issue was?

[Krill]

ah, crosspost...

[Paddy]

Originally posted by OPD
In accordance with this (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129186) thread, the first 3 turns should be lax.

But after that turns should be played within 12 hours, I don't know how stringent you guys think this should be..... it would be good if everyone could understand and agree to a certain level of strictness so that there would be no come backs or disgruntlement if it does happen.....

It has now been 24 hours, which is fine as this is still only the 3rd turn, but if everyone understands that after 24 hours next turn, without any communication, it will be "skiparoo!"....
If teams aren't ok with that then now is the time to say....

One team this turn have stated they might be a while, which is cool....

OPD, two points old chap ;)

1. thanks for that link. Even if I disagree that the poll states that it is 3 turns, and not 5 turns :lol: only as I see that of the 25 voters the majority should have won the day, as in most polls around Poly... I know and have read somewhere Snoopys reply about averaging and some such, I just believe that the poll is 5 not 3. But then you lads are the admins and can read the poll on that thread as well as any of us afterall :)

2. If a team has asked for an extension, then it should be notified clearly for all to see. If we are to care about this game, to structure time to be available to play the saves on time etc, then we should have true indicators that the save will be late etc. Many of us know the others game playing times etc, and those that do not will soon pick up a rythem on when to expect the save from how it is progressing in the Turn Tracker Thread. By knowing there is a delay allows us to get on with other things, such as real life :lol:

and welcome to the land of the Horde

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Krill
Team Euphorica: 1400-0200 GMT
Team Bloody Oath Horde: 0600-1800 GMT
Team Babylon: 1700-0500 GMT
Team Desolation Row: 0200-1400 GMT
Team Lost Boys: 2000-0800 GMT
Team Conquest: 0600-1800 GMT

A question: What if 1889 sends the saave at midnight his time, and the turn is played, for us, by a European? We would have to wait to the following evening to play the save, which is longer than 12 hours (closer 18). According to the rules we would have our turn skipped, but I wasa wondering what the majority opinion on this issue was?

an interesting point Krill, interesting indeed

with a little detective work and some devious cunning a team could use this as a way of exploiting / damaging the next team etc - sad but true, after all this really is a game of war, not of love. So something else to be considered.

Has this ever been encountered in the other Teamed Demo Games?



on a seperate point, as to the play order you posted above, I just would like to mention that we had agreed to the play order, just not the times that are listed with the order...

thanks ;)

[Krill]

Has this ever been encountered in the other Teamed Demo Games?


Yes, and it waas accomplished by allowing each team 24 hours to play the sav.

Oh, and Paddy, I don't get the use of that smilie, or this sentence:

with a little detective work and some devious cunning a team could use this as a way of exploiting / damaging the next team etc - sad but true, after all this really is a game of war, not of love. So something else to be considered.

So you are saying that, from the start of this game, we can do anything that we want to try and win (the game?)

[Paddy]

ahhh clarification... the smilie was used as a wink, after the word thanks, on a seperate sentence at the end of my rant is all :)

the sentence you then question was just to point out that a team could use this procedure as an exploit so that another team could then miss their turn.. all by playing with when they send the save at certain hours etc.

I have no way given any such permission regarding doing anything to win the game. I was just stating a fact that there is a difference between love and war. :lol:

[Krill]

The sentence you then question was just to point out that a team could use this procedure as an exploit so that another team could then miss their turn.. all by playing with when they send the save at certain hours etc.


aah, so it seems that we have a flaw in the current timing system. Does anyone care? And what are the alternatives?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Team conquest best be sending the mod team some bananas to be...periodically unavailable...to skip them...


In all seriousness, I think everyone would agree that skipping not be used as a weapon. Looks to me like 24 hours might be a requirement in a team game.

[1889]

All discussion about what to do on the next turn should take place between turns, so 12 hours from the time the save is sent is plenty of time to enter your orders and send the game on. I'm not sure why everybody is mentioning 24 now. It has always been 12 as far as I can remember. We have enough people in each team that somebody will have to play it.

Maybe everybody doesn't get a chance to vote, that hardly seems like a big enough deal to hold up the entire game.

[Paddy]

My understanding is that the 12 hour rule was only to apply for either a certain number of turns, or into a certain age. Then it would change to 24 for the same sort of thing, and later possibly 48.

This was all in the original roll out, and if I remember correctly the team captains all had to vote on it. Which I am sure Snoop made sure about.

I have been trying to track down the posts that clearly states the outcome to that chat, but have not found it yet... I keep goofing off to play pbems, go for swims and eat food :D I will find it amongst all of these setup threads eventually ;) It may even be in one of Snoop's setup emails to the team captains.

As to the 24 hours, well we will be there soon anyway, and it could be a good thing in letting teams that are scattered all over the planet to have a chat about the turn etc

You will notice though that a lot of teams are all prepared and have the save dealt with very quickly ;)

[Krill]

All discussion about what to do on the next turn should take place between turns, so 12 hours from the time the save is sent is plenty of time to enter your orders and send the game on. I'm not sure why everybody is mentioning 24 now. It has always been 12 as far as I can remember. We have enough people in each team that somebody will have to play it.

Maybe everybody doesn't get a chance to vote, that hardly seems like a big enough deal to hold up the entire game.


1889, let me point something out to you that you may not fully realise at this moment in time: people go inactive, because of various reasons, such as boredom, work, exams, burnout, leaving Poly in general, and, in a couple of cases, becuase of a hostile public forum (i.e. the Voxian War, and the Great Bobian War, PTWDG) and, in general, while building is taking place. Most teams in demogames get whittled down to the absolute core, (i.e. Glory of War. When Master Zen got stuck without internet access, it took a whole week to get the turn played, by a single side, becuase there was not a single person who understood the building plans.)

Now, I can understand if turns were skipped due to reasons such as slow play, and I agree that all those who signed up to this game should accept that. My point however, was that if the save was sent at midnight, then there is a good chance that there is absolutely no one on AM that could access C3C, because they are at work or school.

Are you saying that if this happens, we should have our turn forfeited because of slow play?

[Paddy]

Thanks to Snoop for leading me to the C3CDG: Turn Limits (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128701) thread...

The idea of time frames was Simple:

From the start: 12/24 hours
From beginning Medieval age: 12/24 hours
From beginning Industrial age: 24/48 hours
From beginning Modern age (gasp!): 24/48/72 hours

then the captains of each team were to vote etc

well we are still looking to see if all did vote on this matter...
hopefully the final details are on a series of emails that Snoop did to get everything sorted so that Dom could get the map completed :D

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot


OPD, two points old chap ;)

1. thanks for that link. Even if I disagree that the poll states that it is 3 turns, and not 5 turns :lol:


Ahem. Majority means > 50%. No one item has that. :) You believe in a plurality ... which I do not. :)


2. If a team has asked for an extension, then it should be notified clearly for all to see. If we are to care about this game, to structure time to be available to play the saves on time etc, then we should have true indicators that the save will be late etc. Many of us know the others game playing times etc, and those that do not will soon pick up a rythem on when to expect the save from how it is progressing in the Turn Tracker Thread. By knowing there is a delay allows us to get on with other things, such as real life :lol:

:b:

[Aqualung71]

If we are micromanaging to the max and researching at high rates so our cashflow is negative, I'll be damned if I'll accept somebody pressing "enter" on our turn forcing us into the red and losing an expensive Granary. That is simply too much of a penalty to wear for a little tardiness :rant:

[snoopy369]

I believe we should consider amending the turn rule in the following way:


The turn limit is 12 hours from the end of the last team's turn limit, before anyone is skipped.


IE, you get 24 hours from the start of the last person's turn. As the teams were set up to ensure they could play the turns in succession, there should be no problem with teams being unable to play the turn during their time-frame. It also prevents using the turn skipping as a weapon. :)

Example:
* Team Conquest receives the turn at 06:00 GMT on 18 Feb. They play the turn at 07:15 GMT and send it on to Euphorica.

Euphorica has a 12 hour 'limit' until 19:15, in theory, but is not skipped until 06:00 GMT on 19 Feb (24 hours from the start of Conquest's turn).

They then send it at 20:10 to Team BOH. (on 18 Feb)

Then team BOH has a 'limit' until 8:10 on 19 Feb (12 hours later), 12 hours later (strictly).

(Now, the rule could also be amended to be "12 hours from the 'skip time' of the previous team's turn", which would in this case give BOH until 18:00 GMT to play the turn.)

This rule would ensure the game is always running at a minimum of 3 days/round (12 hours * 6 teams), but there is still a (slight) chance of people getting skipped, as in the (presumably rare) situation like this one. I'm not sure if there are any real situations which would come up like this - but it's still technically possible. To be used aggressively, it would require 2 teams conspiring to break the rules.

<hr>

Another thing to consider is that perhaps we could amend the rule to be:


Your team may post a time frame of at least 8 hours in which you can play the save. If your deadline does not fall into this time frame for at least 2 hours, then the deadline is extended to include at least 2 hours of this time limit.


In the previous example, Euphorica has given a 'time frame' of 1900 to 0300 GMT.

They recieved the save at 07:15 GMT, and the "deadline" extended to 19:15 GMT, only 15 minutes in their timeframe. Thus, the deadline is extended to 21:00 GMT.

They then send the save on at 17:30 GMT, to BOH, whose time frame is 0800-1600. Their deadline would extend to ... 05:30 GMT, but would be extended to 1000 GMT. Etc.

(Of course the teams were set up hopefully to not have this sort of thing happen - their play times should hopefully overlap in a positive, not negative, way, like this one did.)

This ensures EVERY team is guaranteed to get it during their timeframe of playability (and the 8 hour amount can be increased to 12 hours or something if people can agree on all having a 12 hour period, which would be better imo). However, it can slow the game down some.

<hr>

Any thoughts?

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
If we are micromanaging to the max and researching at high rates so our cashflow is negative, I'll be damned if I'll accept somebody pressing "enter" on our turn forcing us into the red and losing an expensive Granary. That is simply too much of a penalty to wear for a little tardiness :rant:

Nonetheless the six team captains agreed to a 12 hour turn limit (4 votes to 2). I have to assume a strict, or at least reasonably strict, enforcement was implied by such a vote. As has been stated by others, this really works out to nearly 3 days to consider your actions (unless everyone is playing quickly, in which case you still are taking much longer than anyone else). If you're micromanaging that much, you should be deciding many turns in advance what to do anyhow. I know my team is doing so anyway... :cute:

Nonetheless I agree that a strict 12 hour limit can be harmful in some rare cases; see above. :)

[Paddy]

also on that, the admins have stated that if the team notifies them about a delay then all is good

we all have amaziung internet access....

[Aqualung71]

Ok then.

I wish to notify the administrators that our team, at some indeterminate place in the foggy sands of time, shall be delayed in playing our turn and will require an extension :D

[Paddy]

:lol: what else would one truely expect ;)

/me passes over a ice cold RedBack to Aqua

[Paddy]

Originally posted by snoopy369
I believe we should consider amending the turn rule in the following way:


The turn limit is 12 hours from the end of the last team's turn limit, before anyone is skipped.


IE, you get 24 hours from the start of the last person's turn. As the teams were set up to ensure they could play the turns in succession, there should be no problem with teams being unable to play the turn during their time-frame. It also prevents using the turn skipping as a weapon. :)

Example:
* Team Conquest receives the turn at 06:00 GMT on 18 Feb. They play the turn at 07:15 GMT and send it on to Euphorica.

Euphorica has a 12 hour 'limit' until 19:15, in theory, but is not skipped until 06:00 GMT on 19 Feb (24 hours from the start of Conquest's turn).

They then send it at 20:10 to Team BOH. (on 18 Feb)

Then team BOH has a 'limit' until 8:10 on 19 Feb (12 hours later), 12 hours later (strictly).

(Now, the rule could also be amended to be "12 hours from the 'skip time' of the previous team's turn", which would in this case give BOH until 18:00 GMT to play the turn.)

This rule would ensure the game is always running at a minimum of 3 days/round (12 hours * 6 teams), but there is still a (slight) chance of people getting skipped, as in the (presumably rare) situation like this one. I'm not sure if there are any real situations which would come up like this - but it's still technically possible. To be used aggressively, it would require 2 teams conspiring to break the rules.

Any thoughts?

That is Grand, just Grand :b: indeed, well done Snoop

This clearly allows all teams to cove all bases... and with a back up player or two, then the above idea has a great chance of success.

Will the option where a team knows that they will be late, then emailing or posting to say so, thus giving them extra time, still be available?

[snoopy369]

Well of course. :) Occasional absences and delays are to be expected, and if a ... um, what do you call it when the one group of people throw sticks and stuff at the other ... oh, yeah, war ... if a war breaks out, then we'll of course allow longer.

Right?

[Dominae]

Not sure if I'm a moderator, but I'll chime in:

I believe what it comes down to is quality versus quantity: does every turn need to be played "just right" (say, with inputs from all players on a team, or with thorough scenario testing), or is a steady/high turn turnover rate more important?

Each team is different. Some teams are run by micromanagers that will not pass on the turn until every Shield is accounted for. Some teams insists on polling every issue. Some teams prefer the roleplaying to the nitty-gritty and just want to see things evolve.

As Uno mentions, 12 hours may not be enough for those teams that care about doing things right. Forcing these teams to play fast may seriously ruin some individual members' fun. 24 hours is certainly more realistic. There's no need to complicate matters with additional rules.

In my experience the worst thing about turn turnover rate is a player/team that is erratic. If all teams collectively find some kind of rhythm then I doubt anyone will much mind if turns take 12 or 24 hours (in fact, with a rhythm it is much easier to schedule turn-playing times and/or discussions which results in faster pace of play).

So, might I put out that this currently it is only turn 4, and that's certainly not enough time to develop a rhythm between six team-pairs. Also might I point out that, with a starter pack of two additional Settlers and and an extra Worker, this game is effectively on turn 40 or more already. And, given the map settings, things are likely to move along quite rapidly. CIV is still a ways off!

/me glares at snoopy369 for taking 2+ days to play his turns in Snow and Ice PBEM

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Dominae
* Dominae glares at snoopy369 for taking 2+ days to play his turns in Snow and Ice PBEM

:lol:


Dom's correct as is UnO in the other thread. Sometimes it just takes a little longer. Having been a turnplayer in a few other demogames (one where I was the primary turnplayer for a year and a half, and one where I was the back-up that eventually took over as primary for a few months) I can say that having a back-up does indeed reduce the chances of taking too long, but some teams do indeed need the time to decide depending on their structure.

I imagine Dom was talking specifically about his experience with Gathering Storm (the MM team ;)) but other teams do that too and sometimes might need input from specific members who are asleep when the rest of the team is awake. It happens.

I think the best solution right now would be to continue with the 12 hour limit, but if a team knows they won't hit that limit then they should post about it and shouldn't be penalized for that (as I think Aqualung just did).

[snoopy369]

I think that the limits were voted on by the teams and approved, so they should be held to. Teams should of course occasionally be allowed to post when they will need a little more time... but it shouldn't be a habit, either.

On that note ... I notice it's been a long time since Conquest in theory got the save - but Ormuzd posted in the EoD TT thread something that I interpret to mean they need a resend of the save (the save wasn't attached), is that correct? Mods, if you don't have a copy of the save either can you investigate?

[Krill]

Yeah, 1889 forgot to attach the save, so I think there is little chance of us playing without a resend...

[OPD]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Mods, if you don't have a copy of the save either can you investigate?

yeah, I sent him an email saying he didn't attach the save

[Paddy]

:lol: a great loop hole ;)

ahh it is all good

the poor lad will be kicking himself when he finds out what he did :)

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
the poor lad will be kicking himself when he finds out what he did :)

I am sure he will. I know I would.

However, it has now been over 26 hours sent 1889 thought he sent the save and over 37 hours since he received it. Is their a way to get in touch with the back-up turn player?

Allowances should be made for honest mistakes, but at some point the game must go on.

Perhaps the team captians and mods can put their heads together to make some kind of policy on this?

[Paddy]

yes there are several discussions underway at the moment on turn speed etc

lots of differring opinions :D

[Paddy]

Originally posted by OPD


yeah, I sent him an email saying he didn't attach the save

not sure what is happening here, but 1889 has been spotted posting this in the last few hours :D


comeon lads - Game ON

[OPD]

Save was resent about 3 hours ago,

Game On!

[Paddy]

OPD, Thanks for letting us know :D

[McMeadows]

America has just gone to bed, Europe is just getting the day started. We need some time to get through the discussions of the nightshift.

BTW, I didn't receive the save from Team Conquest yesterday evening, although Snoopy did. Otherwise we most probably would have gotten things done last (Euro) night.

It appears Ormuzd has mailed the save through a different account which went straight into the junk mail. Both addresses are now ok

[Paddy]

You lot really should get yourselves organized before ya even get the save
Surely you know where you finished last turn...
and the capibilities of your units and towns etc...
so why not have it all prepared for when the save arrives :D

also the Mods, OPD etc have a copy of the save if you need it ;)

[McMeadows]

It are the events that happen during the turn that require support of the team('s majority). We're strong provocators of fast play, but because I missed out on the file yesterday evening, it's all a bit unfortunate. RL demands that I do pay some attention at work as well these hours.

[Paddy]

Work... :hmmm: looks like it might be time for your social club to buy ya boss a copy of Civ :D

[ormuzd]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
Work... :hmmm: looks like it might be time for your social club to buy ya boss a copy of Civ :D

not a bad idea. I'm trying to catch my boss with this but he denies. Will se how long...

[McMeadows]

This is the place to discuss where the save should have gone. Paddy, I sent the save to Ljube through MSN (one of the odd times a day you're not online) and he assured me he would forward it to his team members. It was late, I was lazy and Ljube offered it himself.

[Paddy]

Greeting Great Leaders of the Euphorican people

So be it then if this is where you wish to discuss this matter!

I come before you in Peace and Happines.

Today there was a slight misunderstanding with the transferance of the sacred save from your team to ours.

As stipulated in the thread "Top Please: Save Game Recipient List" (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129825) could the save please be sent from your team the approved list.

I understand now what did take place, I just would state that I was online, and obviously waiting for the save as per my post, and yes it was a tad frustrating, as I am sure you would understand. ;)

Ok so the funniest bit was when you did not answer emails or pm... something about a toothbrush, but I really did not want to pry.

So I would ask that you look at the thread and consider following the procedure set down by the game creator, Snoop Cat. (oh and by the way, are you lot related to that fella?)

anyway thank you for taking this matter under consideration.

Paddy

[Beta]

Paddy - did you get gruffer and your bark louder with the new avatar??:lol:

[Paddy]

me louder, never old chap... ;)

gruffer, not at all.... just waited and waited for no save, then had to go out.... :lol: then save arrived just after I left is all....

simple concepts certainly do me undone some times :lol:

and does my heart good discuss such matter so happily with the Dutch components of Poly these days ;)

edit: well back to telling the young un's such happy bed time stories :evil:

[Krill]

a heads up, we won't be able to play the save until tomrrow evenng, as everyone is either ill or has just finished work (ie I just did a 13 hour day, and I'm just slightly knackered)

[Beta]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
me louder, never old chap... ;)

gruffer, not at all.... just waited and waited for no save, then had to go out.... :lol: then save arrived just after I left is all....

simple concepts certainly do me undone some times :lol:

and does my heart good discuss such matter so happily with the Dutch components of Poly these days ;)

edit: well back to telling the young un's such happy bed time stories :evil:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ah Paddy - where would Poly be without you? :lol: :lol: :b: :b: :b:

[McMeadows]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
....just waited and waited for no save, then had to go out.... :lol: then save arrived just after I left is all....

simple concepts certainly do me undone some times :lol:

and does my heart good discuss such matter so happily with the Dutch components of Poly these days ;)

edit: well back to telling the young un's such happy bed time stories :evil:

You were NOT online when I sent over the save to Ljube.
You of all people must know how young (Feyenoord supporting) Dutch lads respond when they're upset...

The toothbrush was in my mouth when I responed to 1 of your e-mails, as to mention I was on my way to get some sleep and not very much in the mood to send a save which you should by that time have received by your team mate Ljube, who had ascertained he would take care of bussiness.

I'm aware of the rules regarding where to send the save. I won't trust internal coordination within BOH again either...

[Paddy]

good to hear that your reading skills are right up there with your toohbrushing skills :evilgrin:

as to my being online... interesting that you say I was not online, when I posted just after you in the turn tracker thread.... and some minutes prior to your post on another thread :lol:

anyway thank you for taking the time from your busy schedule to allow me an understanding of your... ahh thinking on these matters :D

[Aqualung71]

Settle it in-game, and go to war with each other ;)

[McMeadows]

@Aqua
A kind request not to post in the tracker thread , but here, for other issues than informing the community on a sent turn by DR.

@ Paddy
Online as in on MSN. You too are requested not to post in the tracker thread for such issues (and sending me 3 mails + 1 PM on the matter).

@ Ankh-Morpork / Ormuzd
I haven't received a save yet, as Paddy has kindly bumped in an e-mail to you and me.
verweg ta hotmail tod com

[Paddy]

wow, a new sheriff in town

so are ya here to clean the place up are ya ;)

hope you got a good set of brooms :lol:

[McMeadows]

Every corner of the land will be swept.... You can run, but you can't hide... Run Paddy run....

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by McMeadows
@Aqua
A kind request not to post in the tracker thread , but here, for other issues than informing the community on a sent turn by DR.


Ah, bugger off ;)

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Aqualung71


Ah, bugger off ;)

not the way to talk to the help old chap ;)

as the new <strike>cleaner</strike>, oh Sheriff, he has some very very important work to do ;)

[OPD]

Originally posted by McMeadows
@Aqua
A kind request not to post in the tracker thread , but here, for other issues than informing the community on a sent turn by DR.


yeah that threads gotta be just for turn sent +1s.

should be on 12 hour non-opening timescales now.


@ Paddy
Online as in on MSN. You too are requested not to post in the tracker thread for such issues (and sending me 3 mails + 1 PM on the matter).


MSN passing of the save is good if it makes things go quicker say if it were to get the next teams player to look at and possibly even play the save straight away, although it would be good if you could send the save to everyone else soon after.
You should never rely on someone else in another team to distribute the save.


@ Ankh-Morpork / Ormuzd
I haven't received a save yet, as Paddy has kindly bumped in an e-mail to you and me.
verweg ta hotmail tod com

the save was re-sent about an hour ago

[ormuzd]

Sorry, I did not understand what is this about MSN Could someone be so kind and explain to me?

[OPD]

You can file transfer civ saves over MSN.....

Can be quite good to get fast play in a 1v1 or a power session.

Although I think you should still have to send the save via email to everyone else

[McMeadows]

MSN is the Microsoft messenger program. Quite usefull for a chance. However, if it were not for everyone using it I would still prefer ICQ.

Please stop nagging over the whole issue. Bottom line to me is that Ljube assured me he would distribute the file among his team mates. For not having such a useless discussion again I won't use the benefits of having the file transfered the quickest way I know.

[Beta]

Aqua and ormuzd, I second McMeadows motion about not posting in the tracker thread unless your post is to indicate the save being sent. Please and thanks.:)

[Paddy]

;) sounds like the Sheriff has some dust allergies there :eek:

so now your sneezing on the mods when they try to help tut-tut :D

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
;) sounds like the Sheriff has some dust allergies there :eek:

so now your sneezing on the mods when they try to help tut-tut :D

:lol:

Beta: Bugger off ;)

[Beta]

:lol:

No probs. I will. If you will stop posting extraneous commentary in the save game thread. ;)

[Paddy]

:lol: as if that will ever happen :evil: :lol: :evil:

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Beta
:lol:

No probs. I will. If you will stop posting extraneous commentary in the save game thread. ;)

Oh, now I'm getting confused. I thought it was the turn tracker thread that we're not allowed to post extraneous comments in :hmmm:

So now you're saying it's this thread we're not allowed to post our drivel in?

Damn, that means this whole post is illegal. Now what am I supposed to do? Disappear up my own......? :scared:

[Kloreep]

I also thought this was the drivel thread.

[ormuzd]

I have posted a message without 'xxxx sent' in the track thread and the shereefs warned me softly about this ;)

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Kloreep
I also thought this was the drivel thread.

yeah that is this thread ;)

[McMeadows]

Again nothing received.
Last turn I was not included in the recipients.

[OPD]

save forwarded

edit - beaten to it by Krill ;)

Party on Krill
Party on McMeadows!!!

[Kloreep]

Perhaps this thread title should be edited to "The Save Game Drivel Thread" just to be clear?

[Krill]

Seconded :b:

[ormuzd]

McM, check your address - it seems there is a problem :)

Additioanlly I have requested for the ICQ but I don't have response yet

[McMeadows]

No, no, no, mate, YOU check my address...
It appears you have misspelled it. It's only 6 letters. VERWEG.
ICQ hasn't been installed last few reinstalls of Windows.

thank you...

[Aqualung71]

Man, Klor is right....there is soooo much drivel in this thread.

(most of it comes from McMeadows :D)

[McMeadows]

Just my way of making friends ;)

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by McMeadows
Just my way of making friends ;)

Well you are Dutch ;)

[Beta]

Originally posted by Aqualung71


Oh, now I'm getting confused. I thought it was the turn tracker thread that we're not allowed to post extraneous comments in :hmmm:

So now you're saying it's this thread we're not allowed to post our drivel in?

Damn, that means this whole post is illegal. Now what am I supposed to do? Disappear up my own......? :scared:

:lol: Yes - sorry for the confusion. This is the drivel thread. Clearly.:lol:

[Paddy]

wow, glad we got that sorted...

so when is the pub going to gert opened around here?

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by Beta


:lol: Yes - sorry for the confusion. This is the drivel thread. Clearly.:lol:


No kidding. :eek:

[snoopy369]

Drivel thread indeed. Just make sure Ming isn't around any time soon ... he might take it out on me for being the forum creator. :)

I have to say the save is moving nicely at this point. Barring any major military actions, this will hopefully continue for the next few weeks at least ... right? :)

[Paddy]

:lol: and we know you are not responsible ;)

and the save is moving nicely indeed :D

[ormuzd]

and the war actions are expected from the red drop :)

[Paddy]

Originally posted by ormuzd
and the war actions are expected from the red drop :)

:lol: :evil: :lol: :evil: :lol: :evil: :lol: :evil: :lol:

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by ormuzd
and the war actions are expected from the red drop :)

Are you offering your armies for his sacrifice? ;)

[Krill]

What armies? We're stuck at 4 spt in our whole bloody empire. Like we can build up an army in 9 turns...

[Krill]

Oh, and Desolation Row, who's desolating you now?

[Beta]

Aqualung posted this in the turn tracking thread:


The Desolation Row respectfully requests an extension of time (not to exceed a further 24 hours) to play the turn, while messengers are dispatched to our various Lords who have some weighty matters of import to discuss before deciding on certain courses of action.


This is when a demo game starts to bog down. Another team will now ask for similar extensions, quoting the precedent established by DR. And the next thing we know - we have a game that comes to a crawl and folks lose interest. :(

Sorry to be a pain Aqua, I had just hoped this game would be different.

[Aqualung71]

Not at all Beta. I don't expect we shall be making such requests with much regularity. However I am sure you understand there are certain times when important decisions must be made, and this is particularly difficult during weekends ;)

I trust you will not be discouraged by this isolated request! We have no intention of allowing this occasion to "bog down" this game. :)

[Paddy]

:lol: indeed Aqua indeed ;)

so do you have a proposed time that you will be home from the pub, where you are conducting these diplomatic negotiations? :D

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
:lol: indeed Aqua indeed ;)

so do you have a proposed time that you will be home from the pub, where you are conducting these diplomatic negotiations? :D

Paddy, of all people i'd think you would understand that the pub is the best place from which to conduct diplomatic negotiations. :lol:

[Paddy]

:lol: of course... but to fall off ones bar stoll and then miss playing ya turn because they placed you in a nice dirty old alley to sleep of your drunk...

:evil: :lol: :evil:

[Aqualung71]

Ahem. I have not visited a bar for many a moon. At least 3 days actually! (not counting the 3 Weeds!) ;)

:rant:

And in any case, nobody from my team trusts me to conduct diplomatic negotiations of any kind. That's why we elected Moonbars :scared:

[Paddy]

;) indeed... :lol: like we believe ya old salt :D

[Moonbars]

Originally posted by Beta


This is when a demo game starts to bog down. Another team will now ask for similar extensions, quoting the precedent established by DR. And the next thing we know - we have a game that comes to a crawl and folks lose interest. :(

Sorry to be a pain Aqua, I had just hoped this game would be different.

We got the save at 3:11 am Saturday morning. It is going to be at least 6 hours before I wake up. Assuming playing Civ3 is the first thing I do on a saturday morning, which I will admit it often is, I might have been able to play this turn on time. What would have happened if we'd got the turn a few hours earlier, we'd almost have missed the time slot already.

[McMeadows]

Assign a back-up player.... And you're not expected to sleep for 12 hours indeed...

[Moonbars]

that's not the point. the point is that *it's not long enough to make any democratic decisions*

We could easily assign players to process the save at various junctures around the clock, but that would be a normal Single player PBEM not a Demogame. Sometimes, things come up and you have to stop to make group decisions. There are things you don't expect to happen that happen, no amount of order giving or pre-turn discussion can handle those.

[McMeadows]

Which should be able to be solved in 24 hours max... You might not get the opinion of the whole team, but a majority must have had an opportunity to speak up.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by McMeadows
Which should be able to be solved in 24 hours max... You might not get the opinion of the whole team, but a majority must have had an opportunity to speak up.

24 Hours should be sufficient for most any case. Beyond that, I think, should be a very rare exception indeed. :)

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by McMeadows
Which should be able to be solved in 24 hours max... You might not get the opinion of the whole team, but a majority must have had an opportunity to speak up.

Some teams have 10 players, so a majority is 6. 6 opinions within a space of 12 hours, or even 24 hours?

Difficult :rolleyes:

[McMeadows]

Not that way...
You wake up, open the save, note your point of discussion, post in private forum and wait untill the end of the day. You can complain about democracy, but you wanna slow down to the commitment of the 50% least committed people in your team. We agreed upon relatively fast play. Maybe sometimes you have to make a decission on your own, or with little input, chief... And then you'll have to explain to the team what kinda mistake you made...

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Aqualung71


Some teams have 10 players, so a majority is 6. 6 opinions within a space of 12 hours, or even 24 hours?

Difficult :rolleyes:

But doable for sure...assuming that your players are involved of course. And if not, then certainly a majority of "active" players could be obtained. At 24 hours a team it would take 6 days to play a turn...certainly long enough to plan for most eventualities. :)

[Beta]

Aqua and Moonbars - you have clearly raised the point in question.

Do we allow the game to slow down every time a team feels it needs to make a democratic decision? (and given the early point we are in this game - you can be guaranteed there will be many more)

OR

Do we set a time limit and teams need to find a way to function within that time limit?

To me this requires about 1 nanosecond of thought. :)

Each team clearly needs to find some way of empowering its leadership/player to make that decision, or discuss potential scenarios in advance, or establish a guiding set of principles, or as has been suggested, establish a time limit on voting, and whoever signs in and makes the vote within the time period, go with that, or whatever.

If you wait for a majority of players to show up, you will be wasting everyone's time. Unless your team is very unique, I suspect you will find a core of keeners, and folks who fade in and out of the game, and some who lurk. Babylon has already based a number of early decisions on the votes of only 3 players.

Again - not trying to be difficult here, or pick on your team. Just trying to paint the bigger picture - which is the health of the entire game.

[Moonbars]

Originally posted by McMeadows
Not that way...
You wake up, open the save, note your point of discussion, post in private forum and wait untill the end of the day. You can complain about democracy, but you wanna slow down to the commitment of the 50% least committed people in your team. We agreed upon relatively fast play. Maybe sometimes you have to make a decission on your own, or with little input, chief... And then you'll have to explain to the team what kinda mistake you made...

No, that is not true.

You wake up, the first thing you do before going to work, having a shower, etc - you load the save, you note that it's already been 8 hours since the save arrived in your inbox, just after u went to bed.

Now you have 4 hours to post your plan for the next move. But.. you have to play the save right then and their or miss work. Shock-horror - the rest of your team is in a different timezone and is asleep or at work - 12 hours doesn't work.

Nothing to do with commitment, it's just impossible. Unless we are all unemployed or can play at work, or don't sleep.

The Discussion is the FUN part. I can just go and play a normal PBEM if I want a fast game with lots of turns.

We have 6 members. 2 Europeans and at least 2 possibly 3 in the Far East / Pacific timezone. I assume trip is American. It is very possible most of our team will miss a chance to contribute.

I will admit things have been better since beta managed to get my E-Mail address right :)

[Moonbars]

Originally posted by Beta
Again - not trying to be difficult here, or pick on your team. Just trying to paint the bigger picture - which is the health of the entire game.

The health of the Demo Game is much better when there is some actual DEMO element in it.

[Ljube]

I don't know about your group Moonbars, but I can tell you how these things are arranged in our Horde. We discuss all possibilities in advance, so when the save comes to our inbox we simply play. The minute we send the save discussion about future actions begins.

And we also tend to set long term goals and guidelines so we don't have to debate every turn about every move of our every unit.

[McMeadows]

Like I mentioned before, Snoop takes up the save if I miss it in the evening. He either can play and send the turn or initiate unforseen discussions, which I then can take in account when I play/ finish the turn before work.

[Beta]

Originally posted by McMeadows
Like I mentioned before, Snoop takes up the save if I miss it in the evening. He either can play and send the turn or initiate unforseen discussions, which I then can take in account when I play/ finish the turn before work.

That's a good approach. We need to implement something like this on Team B. So far we have been OK with the receipt and timing.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Moonbars


The health of the Demo Game is much better when there is some actual DEMO element in it.

:lol: Understood Moonbars. Understood. I think we are merely questioning how the democracy gets implemented. I appreciate the challenges of different time zones - in fact - one of our major contributors is European. But I do think there are other approaches to team dynamics and democracy that will work.

[Moonbars]

Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko
I don't know about your group Moonbars, but I can tell you how these things are arranged in our Horde. We discuss all possibilities in advance, so when the save comes to our inbox we simply play. The minute we send the save discussion about future actions begins.

And we also tend to set long term goals and guidelines so we don't have to debate every turn about every move of our every unit.

we are and have been doing this. What I am saying is that sometimes there is *very* limited time available for *any* of our team to look at the save before it gets sent on, and if something *unplanned* turns up, it's stupid to force the game to go on before we have a chance to at least let all our members know what is going on.

You cannot possibly discuss *all* possibilities in advance. sometimes u get a random happening.

[Aqualung71]

Just a little reminder....

Please stop posting relevant and informed comments in this thread....this is the drivel thread. :rolleyes:

[Krill]

We can play the save today, but we will need a little more than 12 hours (close to 16 hours).

[McMeadows]

I'll be available from 21:00-22:30 GMT, so that suits me well...

[Paddy]

this quote from the turn traker thread...

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Bugger, I must have sent you our turn by mistake.

Sorry, but I won't be able to resend until I get home from work in about 10 hours time :rolleyes:

so was the save sent then? :D

[Mart]

still waiting. I wrote Aqualung71, waiting for the answer

[Paddy]

Thanks Mart :)

ahhh yet another great delaying tactic from the Desolation Row... :evil:

apart from boring all the players away from the game... I do not see much benefit for taking 48 hours every two turns :lol:

[Mart]

What would you think about the following new rule. Actually I do not know, if that rule was once valid in civ demo games, but saves might be in addition to sending via regular email, posted for download in "turn tracking thread". They might be later removed, let us say three turns later, just to save server space.

This possibly would solve problems of lost emails, detached attachments by automatic virus removal tools, lost in bulk email folders, etc...

[snoopy369]

I don't like posting saves ... not that this game has the same ... issues ... the other games did, but it still leaves too large of a possibility of ... issues.

I would just like to see the various teams figure out how to send the emails to the right people ... set up a distribution list or something, it's not that hard, is it? :cute:

[Krill]

Euphorica, have you recieved the save yet?

[Krill]

I take it you got it this time...

[McMeadows]

Didn't receive anything... I see Snoopy has played the save in the mean time... Hope to be included next time...

[Krill]

MCM, you mail is:

[McMeadows]

perfect...
I checked my junkmail and didn't find a mail from you (as you're not in my address list yet)

[Krill]

wierd. i'll make sure it works next time. ii'll sed the email separately, and check that way...

[McMeadows]

no worries... Thanks for taking the effort

[McMeadows]

Nothing received, just like Snoopy. And I can't play untill I get home in 10 hours.

[Paddy]

such a shame... we were on a good run there :(

Krill, looks like you need to get them email addresses all sorted ;)

[Krill]

I have resent the save to each person individually. I also tyuped out the addies by hand (and I will endevour to learn them as well), and to both gmail accounts, eoddemogame and euphorica.

[ormuzd]

I wonder what may be the problem

I have copied the emails of everyone and placed them in our private forum. Everyone reported last time I have sent it that the save was received.

And Krill has the same list as me. Really strange

McMeadows, do you have problems with other games too or this happens only with us?

[Kloreep]

Do either of you have access to a website somewhere you could use to upload the saves? If you stuck to a prearranged naming format, McMeadows and Snoopy could just download it from there if they didn't get the e-mail; and so long as you didn't post the site's url and folder path, it wouldn't be posting it in the open like attaching it or using links here would. (I don't think you could use poly upload; IIRC it won't give you the file if you weren't referred from a poly link. But any free hosting service or personal website would work, right?)

Edit: Actually, you could use poly upload if you PMed a link to them.

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Krill
I have resent the save to each person individually. I also tyuped out the addies by hand (and I will endevour to learn them as well), and to both gmail accounts, eoddemogame and euphorica.

I am confused a bit here, does not your email provider allow you to set up "group contacts" for this very thing?

so once you have it set up, and tested, you use the "group" each time you forward the save :)

[Krill]

I did that.

It did not work. :)


I don't actually have a problem learning the addies. My photographic memory helps alot in that respect.

[Paddy]

Krill, what "brand" of email do you use?

[Krill]

freedom2surf. Basically name.name.f2s.com

Worked for all of my PBEMs, even though I have not sent emails to hotmail before, but i have sent plenty to gmail and yahoo.

[Paddy]

Well from what I read you should not be having any issues at all.
They sound like they are well set up.

Freedom2surf offers you the most advanced email options for complete flexibility and control. Just look at these features and benefits:
Webmail
Read and post email from anywhere in the world using our web based email system.
Full SMTP Support
You can also send and receive freedom2surf hosted emails from any network using an email client. Our outgoing and incoming mail servers are available to you from any internet connection so you don't have to rely on the mail servers of the isp you connect with..
POP3 Support
Fully supports the POP3 standard and can be used from email programs such as Microsoft Outlook Express and Netscape Messenger.
IMAP Support
For those who work from multiple locations the email service also supports advanced IMAP access.

Do you then run this through a system like "Outlook"?

[McMeadows]

Originally posted by ormuzd
McMeadows, do you have problems with other games too or this happens only with us?

There had been a spelling error in my e-mail address on your list before. With the other games I play I have no problems. Hotmail has been a problem for a while when it had an automatic virusscanner that claimed all saves were virusses, but that has been solved.

Anyway got the save earlier today and it is allready been passed on (by BOH as well)...

[Paddy]

indeed received and played :)

would be good to have this situation sorted though

we have the opportunity to get some good speed happening with this game :D

[Beta]

Excellent turn around times lately!!!:b: :b:

[snoopy369]

yessir :) nice game speed

[Paddy]

has there been any word from Ankh Morpork?

Hope all is well with this team :evil:

after all we know how well they have spoken of the Horde lately :lol:

[Aqualung71]

Rumour, gossip, inuendo?

Pray tell, young Paddy....what have those nasty boys been saying about your honourable horde?

[Paddy]

ahh not sure.... some strange things I am sure

may be a member could tell us...?

do you know anyone who has tried to become a member there old chap :evil:

[snoopy369]

lol you guys are funny :lol:

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot
ahh not sure.... some strange things I am sure

may be a member could tell us...?

do you know anyone who has tried to become a member there old chap :evil:

Yes well, since you keep mentioning it.....I must have clicked on "join" by mistake, since their name is directly above ours on the team name list at the top of the forum thread directory. You Mongols are clearly not blessed with a talent for deductive reasoning. :lol:

Besides, if they let me in, it's their fault anyway :rolleyes: :p

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Aqualung71


Yes well, since you keep mentioning it.....I must have clicked on "join" by mistake, since their name is directly above ours on the team name list at the top of the forum thread directory. You Mongols are clearly not blessed with a talent for deductive reasoning. :lol:

Besides, if they let me in, it's their fault anyway :rolleyes: :p


yes oh evil :evil: aqua... of course it was clearly a mistake :evil:

[ormuzd]

I'm sorry I have to say this
As most of you already know currently I'm the only active player of the Ankh-Morpork team. This means the game turns are played only by me and when I'm busy the game will stop.
Tonight seems to be one of these cases.
However, I'll try to play it when as earlier as possible but there might some delay of 24 hours

[McMeadows]

No worries mate.
I respect your efforts of continuing. Hopefully some unassigned players that want to be involved want to join you soon. For good reasons like this one, waiting is not a nuisance.

[ormuzd]

FNM can be really exhausting sometimes...

however, turn played and sent forth

[Paddy]

Team Euphorica.... several of the Blood Oath Horde stand ready to recieve the save

We thank you greatly for sending us the save that Team Ankh-Morpork have sent you... please supply the official password so that we can really have some benefit of this information :evil:

[McMeadows]

the password = BOHcankissmyass
Can't remember which letters where capitalized however, so you need to take a few efferts probably...

Resend (twice for the old farth himself) and sorry for the inconvenience

[Paddy]

thanks for taking the time to post the password... :nono:

always knew you lot were strange... :evil:

[Kloreep]

I haven't gotten the save yet. :(

I've e-mailed Paddy for a re-send, but if he's sent it, I haven't gotten it either.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Kloreep
I haven't gotten the save yet. :(

I've e-mailed Paddy for a re-send, but if he's sent it, I haven't gotten it either.

May want to re-send that e-mail. He was having server issues earlier today. He did not receive one that I sent him.

[Kloreep]

Resent.

I'll try to get up early enough to play the save before leaving. But after that, I'm going to be gone tomorrow till late in the US evening. :crook:

[Paddy]

ok, sorry about that lads... I have just come in from work

the save has been resent as requested :)

[BigFurryMonster]

I did not receive it (I do, normally). Did you resend it to a different address?

[Paddy]

:hmmm:

all sent to standard addresses

I will resend now from hotmail ;)

edit: 3rd time sent, at some stage the others may turn up :evil:

[BigFurryMonster]

Got it now.

[Kloreep]

Got all 3 now. :)

[McMeadows]

Wassup with Babylon?

[Paddy]

not sure... I even resent the save, just in case.... ;)

maybe they are practising extinction :lol:

[McMeadows]

I vote AGAINST them having to skip their turn, might that issue be raised. The average speed is just below 9 hours per group, so that's well under the 12 we aimed for...
Let us all keep enjoying this fast game. 7 hours for a whole turn last weekend, I hardly get time to sleep ;)

[Paddy]

indeed we are hooting along

hope they at least pop by and give some indication of when we can continue :hippie:

[Moonbars]

I disagree. Beta and McMeadows have been *very* vocal about not allowing us a small extension, See http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=3659064#post3659064

I vote babylons turn be skipped right away.

[snoopy369]

Game Admins, you there? It's Me, Snoopy369 ...

:D

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Moonbars
I disagree. Beta and McMeadows have been *very* vocal about not allowing us a small extension, See http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=3659064#post3659064

I vote babylons turn be skipped right away.

quite compelling evidence :evil:

[Moonbars]

yup. It's a rather strange about-face from McMeadows as well :) Perhaps he has allied his team with bablyon in-game?!?

[McMeadows]

I most likely have been urging to press charges in order to keep the game at a high pace. Now that we have a high paced game, I'm more relaxed over the matter.

I skipped 1 or 2 reports to the team because I couldn't keep up with playing last week. Now the team has some time to respond to those reports just as well. Another reason to be not too concerned.

And the comment by Beta, quoted by Aqua, also assures me that this is most likely an unfortunate incident. We're still talking about Beta, who's a preacher of fast game play and a devoted and reliable player.

I agree that it would have been adequate to have left a note here (by anyone of the Ba(r)bs)...

Me being nice for a change raises questions right away :D...

[Krill]

Being honest, I would like the save tonight but I'm easy on this issue atm, but if the save can't be played so that Team 4 recieves it by tomorrow evening, then Babylons' turn should be skipped.

Oh, Moonbars, did you recieve the Iron civer 2 test game I sent to you on monday evening?

[ormuzd]

we are Ankh-Morpork, not team 4 ;)

[Krill]

Quicker to type team 4, and less spelling mistakes, as well...

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Krill
Quicker to type team 4, and less spelling mistakes, as well...

ahhh... are you not the Ambassador for team Ankh-Morpork?

[Krill]

Paddy, there is only me and Ormuzd on team AM, annd both of us do every job, including ambassador

[Paddy]

yes indeed, good point on team Ankh-Morpork old chap, good point indeed :)

hope all goes well for you both with team Ankh-Morpork.

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Krill
Paddy, there is only me and Ormuzd on team AM, annd both of us do every job, including ambassador

What happened to the other 4 Krill? Did two-thirds of your team stage a failed coup and you had them executed?

Perhaps now is the time for you to start covertly contacting members of other teams to join your ranks....as per the "Refugee" thread ;)

[Moonbars]

well I fail to see why there was such a fuss from certain players when we *asked* for a small extension, where as one team can go AWOL for days and not get their turn skipped.

That's double standards.

[McMeadows]

Never denied to measure with double standards. :D

[Aqualung71]

Oh and Krill.....just in case you get confused because

You're team is the 5th one listed at the top of the forum, not 4th; and
you only have 2 players left out of the original 6;

.....your name is Ankh-Morpork *




* sincere apologies if you are Jewish or Muslim, but I didn't suggest the name

[Paddy]

a sad double standard indeed

and where are our fabled mods.... all that power and their off looping around a gum tree somewhere with the missing team members of Ankh-Morpork :lol:

we have some clear guidelines on this matter

all the teams, even Ankh-Morpork, have discussed this at legnth...

we want to keep this ship rolling right?

Krill, mighty Lord of Ankh-Morpork, what say you on this?

[McMeadows]

hmmm Paddymeister,... it's team Babylon that is delaying the game...

[Aqualung71]

I've just emailed Kloreep, so I expect the turn will be played soon.

Do we get 72 hours too? I know it will affect our mean play times, but it won't affect our median much! :spam:

[McMeadows]

And therefore the double standards do have their use...

No off course not

[Paddy]

Maybe we need to look at these people...

Originally posted by snoopy369
Game: Eve Of Destruction , a.k.a. C3C Team Democracy Game.


Admin Team
Members:
Dominae
UnOrthOdOx
OPD
MWIA

do they have controls, budgets... are they accountable to anyone for their corporate credit cards???

where are they..... :lol:


and the mighty team Babylon???

Originally posted by snoopy369
Team Babylon (http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=51359_bablogoDark.gif)
Members:
Beta
joncnunn
GameCube64
skrobism
Big Furry Monster
Micha
Kloreep


and what of the Shogun Gunner?

too many white rum slammers for this lot I think ;)

[Krill]

Aqua, the only God that I pray to is the RNG. I am an atheist, if you really want to know (not that it is uncommon on this site).

oh, and we are Team 4. Check the origianl C3CDG thread. We are listed as team 4.


and I'll be honest and say that I like having a small team. I don't see what the problem is with there being only two people active on a team.

[McMeadows]

The problem arises when 1 of those 2 blows up his computer (or something like that). Moreover, it would usefull to have a day and night shift available for 24/7 coverage

[Paddy]

Originally posted by McMeadows
hmmm Paddymeister,... it's team Babylon that is delaying the game...

ahh indeed, you be correct old chap :)

Was just glad that we could chat with Ankh-Morpork about the issues at hand ;)

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Krill
Aqua, the only God that I pray to is the RNG. I am an atheist, if you really want to know (not that it is uncommon on this site).

and I'll be honest and say that I like having a small team. I don't see what the problem is with there being only two people active on a team.

Clearly the words of a psychopathic dictator who has executed his other 4 team-members already ;)

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Aqualung71


Clearly the words of a psychopathic dictator who has executed his other 4 team-members already ;)

"psychopathic dictator" egggsalant

maybe he can dictate a letter to "Team Babylon" and "the admins" and get this show on the road

[Krill]

Aqua, would you be able to play the save if you got it in the morning? And if so, how long is it until the morning for you?

[McMeadows]

Originally posted by McMeadows
The problem arises when 1 of those 2 blows up his computer (or something like that). Moreover, it would usefull to have a day and night shift available for 24/7 coverage

Either I tend to repeat myself, or Krill thought of another reason to mention the above...

[Krill]

I take it you just read the AU forum? :)

[ormuzd]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Oh and Krill.....just in case you get confused because

You're team is the 5th one listed at the top of the forum, not 4th; and
you only have 2 players left out of the original 6;

.....your name is Ankh-Morpork *




* sincere apologies if you are Jewish or Muslim, but I didn't suggest the name

I don't think I have understood this very well... Maybe it was addressed to Krill?

I don't see what was the problem. Since I have became turn player for our team we have not delayed a turn, even when I was out drinking, erm, having fun with friends, or something else. The turn was sent properly and in the times we have set at the beginning. Maybe the only one who was more regular than us is the BOH team because of their unique and unimitable leader...

Additionally the teams were formed so that the players could be from the same zone and do live chats rather than one person to play the turn. I think we are still the only team playing while discussing moves.

And sooner or later everyone will become part of our team. As evryone knows Ankh-morpork was many times captured, burn, conquered, etc. and very soon the conquerors became part of Ankh-Morpork. So, join us now and you'll be the winners. The game was over from the start. The only interesting thing is who will be second