New Clash Web Site - Comments Please

[Kull]

"Welcome to the long-awaited Clash of Civilizations Web Page! It's only a "beta" right now, and your comments and suggestions are going to be necessary in order to bring things through to fruition....."

I won't repeat everything that's posted on the Web Site, so why not go there and see for yourself??

(NOTE: The old web site link has been updated to reflect the move over to Apolyton)

http://clash.apolyton.net

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Kull (edited December 09, 1999).]</font>

[Kull]

I will be away on business for the next week, so you probably won't get many (if any) responses from me until next Friday. Don't let that stop YOU, however!

[Mark_Everson]

Dominic and Kull:

Looks Great!

You guys have done a Lot of work, and it shows.

The design for each sub-page is really good, and makes getting a quick impression of a few areas pretty easy.


Link to current discussion on forum is really good. Sometimes ther'll be several needed IMO.


One quick note...

I tried the site with Netscape 4.06 and couldn't get the "site map" frame to the left to appear. It was just a blank wallpaper. And to add insult to injury the main page has Two Adds!

It does work fine with IE5.

Everyone in charge of an area:

As Kull said on the site, we need Executive summaries of each area for people who don't want to read 10 pages! (most people IMO http://apolyton.net/forums/wink.gif ) At the top of the bit for each model it'd be a one or two paragraph description of the Big Ideas of the model/area. Alternatively you could use 5-10 bullet points. (Do we need a standard here?) After the Exec summary maybe an intro thats one to two pages? We need to figure out exactly how to get our message across in the best way.

Mark

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited October 31, 1999).]</font>

[rentgen]

Thanks for the job done, guys!
I'll go with criticizing right away if you don't mind http://apolyton.net/forums/wink.gif

1. Ermm.. Could we do without frames? It is very easy to do the same layout using tables and we get rid of the frames which are considered by many to be *not very good style*
You have a good point there about not having much graphics -- now, this is actually a *very* good point. It would allow to view the page with as many browsers as possible -- even the text only ones. (Like lynx -- many unix people use it. I use it occasionally) And then, having frames kills this advantage since not so many browsers out there support frames. Lynx doesn't. http://apolyton.net/forums/wink.gif

We aim to make clash an inter platform project -- so we better make web site "interbrowserable" as well.

2. About the layout on the left. It would probably be good to make it "double-level". Meaning the following: to have a top level structure outlined first:

- Main
- Downloads
- Models
- Screenshots

etc,
and then below we can expand on it, providing opportunity for "fine-choosing" from the main page:

...
- Main
**** news
**** project synopsis

- Model
**** diplomacy
**** military

etc.

With this layout we will have to have additional pages that will be shown when a person chooses top-level links ("main", "models" etc) that will describe the contents a bit and provide the same links as in the corresponding "expanded" section below on the left.

I hope this is understandable http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif

3. Minor comments.

-- should have a "status" section
-- links that lead off the clash site should be opened in the new window (well, this is definetely optional but worth discussing)

Also i have much to say about the improvements that could be made on sub-pages, but i wonder if you gonna change them pretty soon anyways. If you don't, i'll post my thoughts.

Thanks,

-- Anton.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by rentgen (edited October 31, 1999).]</font>

[Blade Runner]

Hi Kull,

I got the same problem with the site like Mark. I use Netscape 4.6 . I think in long term we need to support minimum the two mainstream browser: IE and Netscape.

Blade Runner

[Dominic]

1) In the regards to the frame. Kull and myself have thought long and hard on that question. He had a very good idea. That if go to a site, without frames, you can leave vary easily. With the frame you have to stick with the web site. This can of course be easily changed. I think it would go against Kull's better judgment.

2) Now for the frame not working with Netscape; I don't know really why it dose not work.

Thanks,

Dom

[Mark_Everson]

One possibility on the frames issue is to just have a link to a no-frames Ver. all the no-frames Ver. would need is all the links on the home page, and each page would need a link back home. Seems like a simple, and frequently-used compromise to me...

[alms66]

I think the page is great!
It keeps me from having to spend hours reading the enormous amout of threads on Apolyton anyway.
Well, that was kinda short!

[rentgen]

Originally posted by Dominic on 10-31-1999 01:53 PM
1) In the regards to the frame. Kull and myself have thought long and hard on that question. He had a very good idea. That if go to a site, without frames, you can leave vary easily. With the frame you have to stick with the web site. This can of course be easily changed. I think it would go against Kull's better judgment.

2) Now for the frame not working with Netscape; I don't know really why it dose not work.


<UL> Now, i'll tell you why it doesn't work. Look at the source of clash_list.html very carefully... YOU ARE MISSING A CLOSING &lt;/TABLE&gt; TAG, that's why it doesn't work! Insert one after the line
&lt;tr&gt;

&lt;td align="center" width="117"&gt;

and before the start of the script at the very end. Also it is a good practice to put closing &lt;/HTML&gt; tag in the end of the document. You know.. just to respect standards.. Because there are GOOD browsers that somehow conform to them and don't automatically suppose anything about what you meant.. like ie does for instance.. (which is not necesserily a good thing)

Now i don't know whether it's M$ frontPage or what... but if it is -- take a good advice - throw it in garbage along with windoze and get the work done in some good old text editor...

About the frames.
First of all, it's not hard at all to get out of such a site. Just do "open the link in the new window". I do it all the time, don't know about others..
Second, "tabled" sites look better. Virtually all big corporations have tabled layout.. Ah.. I guess i can't convince you of that anyways.. It's just my experience and general ideas of web design.. Even this: frames may look good.. but that scrolling bar -- it destroys the beauty of the whole design solution you have there.. i mean, the colors and pics. It is made cool, but - my opinion http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif - tables would make it better...
[/list]

-- Anton.


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by rentgen (edited November 01, 1999).]</font>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by rentgen (edited November 01, 1999).]</font>

[rentgen]

So, the frames.. Let's have 'em if you insist, but let's then get rid of the scroll bar at least..

One more thing...

Guys, REMOVE THAT <font color=#FF0000> UGLY</font> &lt;BLINK&gt; thing from the news section!!!

Read some guidelines for a good web design - it says everywhere - DON'T USE BLINK!

The reason is simple -- it takes 80% of your attention so you can't see anything else on the page.
Now, it doesn't show in ie, but after i corrected the clash_list and loaded it in Netscape, it is perfectly there...

Also, you will probably need to do some more script magic to get rid of the ad on the left in Netscape.. but if the site will be hosted on apolyton, that doesn't really needed i guess..

If i sound harsh, i don't mean to. I just want the web-page to be super-top-class-best-of-all-pages http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif
And you really did a good job.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by rentgen (edited November 01, 1999).]</font>

[Dominic]

Over the past few days I have been working on a non frame section of the site. This way the user can have the option of having frames or no frame. I think that this would be better for most people out there on the web.

Thanks for telling me Anton. I'll try to fit that in. I have mainly been working hard on the non frame part of the site.

Thanks,
Dom

[Glak]

Originally posted by Dominic on 10-31-1999 01:53 PM
1) In the regards to the frame. Kull and myself have thought long and hard on that question. He had a very good idea. That if go to a site, without frames, you can leave vary easily. With the frame you have to stick with the web site. This can of course be easily changed. I think it would go against Kull's better judgment.
Dom

Umm don't you see anything wrong with that? That is simply immoral. For that reason alone the frames should be removed. People should be able to come and go as they please, that is what people expect. Sure they might stay a little longer on their first trip but if they find it hard to leave then they will not come back.

Trying to get people to stay longer through means of the medium is very bad, only the content should influence how long they choose to stay. If you want people to linger then just improve the content, otherwise the people will just go off and spend those portions of their finite lifespans doing something else.

[Kull]

Frames:

OK. Let's clear something up. My partiality toward frames is not part of some evil, Machiavellian plot to "trap" helpless surfers within the web of the Clash Site. There is ONLY one reason: Making it easy for people to move around within the Clash World.

You'll note I use the term "World" instead of "Web Site". It's NOT an accident. Although many important Clash events will be chronicled by and hosted within the Clash Web Site, it's not the only Clash thing happening out there. We have the Apolyton Forums, member sites, and many related topics. ALL of these exist elsewhere on the web. If you use the Web Index frame as it's intended, you can do ONE-CLICK hopping from a Model description, to a related thread on the Apolyton Clash forum, to Mark Everson's site, to the Java download page, back to Clash Home, etc. etc. Maybe it's just me, but I LOVE being able to do that! I find it to be extremely user friendly. (Down off my "frame" soap box.)

Having said that, there's clearly a number of folks who have no use for frames. So be it. Mark and Dom have suggested using the standard approach of allowing folks to choose between frames and non-frames. And perhaps right now there aren't enough good examples to fully highlight my "Clash World" vision. But in the long run, I truly believe frames are the best way to implement it.

[Kull]

Rentgen: Thanks for the helpful comments. Dom's web development skills are still a bit rough, so I know he really appreciates your insights. If you find any more bugs in the code (such as the blink thing and the Netscape problem), please let us know right away. As to "text editor" web page development....well...neither of us has the expertise to carry THAT off! So please bear with the reliance on Front Page, and don't hesitate to offer code improvement suggestions!

[Colon™]

Hi, I'd like to give my moral support (for what it's worth) to this whole project, I'm glad there are guys out there who are trying t make a complex, realistic game rather then making another simplistic one. (that focuses more on appeal then content)
The site looks great, it's in my fav's list. http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Colon (edited November 06, 1999).]</font>

[Glak]

yeah who'd want a simple game where everything is abstracted and very unrealistic? Well I for one am into that type of game and I think a lot of other people like chess too. Got to love the realistic movement system and the complex battle resolution. Don't believe the hype, realism is overrated.

[Mark_Everson]

Kull:

Aw, I was hoping Somebody had an Evil Plot going... I can never seem to get organized enough to pull off My evil plots http://apolyton.net/forums/wink.gif. Agree with your approach.

Colon:

Thanks for the moral support, but next time just Send Money http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif. When you get a chance, please give us some constructive criticism on our game models...

Glak:

Chess was great when the best software available was Wood http://apolyton.net/forums/wink.gif. We're doing more complicated stuff because the industry ain't. But it isn't just for the sake of realism. As you say, realism can be a drag. The realism we want is mostly because this particular deranged group thinks that a selective amount of additional detail can make Clash more Fun.

[Paul Crocker]

Glak: That's fine if you prefer an abstract game - I do too at times (FE I enjy Doug Greening's "World at War - Basic" as much as the Standard game). It's also a real treat when I run across a realistic simulation (military, flight, or economic). Many of these are quite FUN. There is certainly a lot of interest out there in a realistic civ-genre game, or else this project/site would be an absolute flop. I doubt that it's all hype, so you might be think twice before ripping on those of us that would like to see this REALISTIC sim pulled off successfully. It's just a matter of balancing out the micromanagement that kills the fun in the realism. I hate micromanagement, but you obviously revel in it, and that's fine. Everyone has opinions on this topic, and many will obviously (thankfully!) be different, so just be content to disagree with us on the level of realism and leave it at that, since it's already been decided. If you absolutely hate this level of realism and would prefer to play chess, then please do so. Otherwise your other criticisms (sp?) related to the models are certainly welcomed! http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif Thanks for all of your positive input on the models.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Paul Crocker (edited November 07, 1999).]</font>

[MarkG]

Acropolis looks great! http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif

[DanQ]

Hear, hear!

http://apolyton.net/forums/biggrin.gif

----------------
Dan; Apolyton CS

[Mark_Everson]

Well guys, now we know how to get our way with Markos... Yep, do whatever controversial thing you might want, but make sure to slap a Parthenon on top http://apolyton.net/forums/wink.gif

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited November 09, 1999).]</font>

[Blade Runner]

Finally I can reach the Clash site with my Netscape browser. :-) Looks great!

Blade

[rentgen]

About the text editor -- never mind http://apolyton.net/forums/wink.gif It's just that being a programmer i don't usually like often unreliable ms products, so i kinda overreacted..

Originally posted by Kull on 11-06-1999 02:23 PM
Frames:

&lt;snip&gt;

We have the Apolyton Forums, member sites, and many related topics. ALL of these exist elsewhere on the web. If you use the Web Index frame as it's intended, you can do ONE-CLICK hopping from a Model description, to a related thread on the Apolyton Clash forum, to Mark Everson's site, to the Java download page, back to Clash Home, etc. etc. Maybe it's just me, but I LOVE being able to do that! I find it to be extremely user friendly. (Down off my "frame" soap box.)

And perhaps right now there aren't enough good examples to fully highlight my "Clash World" vision. But in the long run, I truly believe frames are the best way to implement it.

Kull,

I haven't thought about it at all. What you're saying makes perfect sense to me -- indeed, it is convinient to be able to browse through all the forums and stuff having all links in the frame on the left ready.. So, thanks for enlightening http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif Had you said this before, i believe my post about frames would be very different http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif

Taking that into account, just a suggestion about non-framed version. I dunno what you have in mind already, but i would keep the layout but would make it using tables instead of frames, and that's it. Minimum changes. And then, as i alraedy said somewhere, you could make all the links that lead off the main site (like forums) open in the new window. Thus, it would somehow comply to your idea of navigability in the "clash world."
There's a very simple way to implement it.. Probably you can do it easier in FrontPage, but in case it's not the case http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif Make something like a layout stub: two-column table i believe, and then just cut-n-paste (int the text editor http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif )the code from the left frame into all the pages' left table column, and the corresponding code from the right frame into the right table column..

In case i failed to mention - i really like your overall design http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif

-- Anton

[rentgen]

Kull&Dom,

I checked your non-framed page preview and.. you may call me a maniac http://apolyton.net/forums/wink.gif but i love it. And gonna use it only..

Just one thing -- it is quite unusual that the layout is centered, usually they align it to the left. Takes some time getting used to the blank space on the left.. Was it done on purpose?

-- Anton

[alms66]

I just wanted to say that I love the music that was put on the site. I downloaded the mediaplayer and the little web address box still pops up, maybe we should just include a link to the player rather than the pop-up, (it's annoying after you've already downloaded it, just my opinion though). Other than that the site is really great, and filling out nicely.
If that track is not copyrighted already, I think we should see about including it in the final product.

[Kanzid Stonebreath]

Has any date been set for moving the Clash webpage over to the site here at Apolyton.

[Dominic]

Kanzid Stonebreath:
We hope to have the Clash Web Site up at Apolyton by December 1st. This means that we are going to finish most of the links, and all of the models should be in order, before moving to Apolyton. So, keep a look out.

Dom

[Mark_Everson]

We have an early version of the isometric graphics running. Paul Crocker, johnmcd, and I have been getting it going over the last week or so. Look for some screen shots on the new web page in a few days. We will also present a few different ways we might do TF graphics in the shots... We'll be looking for feedback as always.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited November 26, 1999).]</font>

[alms66]

I tried to go see if the new graphics shots were up, but I can't get to the web page. It loads the first page, where I choose frames. Then as it's almost done loading the second page it freezes my computer. I was just wondering if anyone else is having the same problem or if it is just a problem on my computer. I can't seem to find the problem if it's just on my computer so, if anyone out there has an idea of what is wrong, please tell me.
thanxs.

[alms66]

Nevermind, I think I found the problem, Media player hadn't fully downloaded, so I downloaded it again, and now everything is fine.

[Mark_Everson]

Dominic & Kull:

I just checked out the web page. I Really Like the new layout for each area! You've made a lot of progress http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif.

On the new graphics... Sorry to be a tease. We just ran into some scheduling problems, so my best guess is Monday or Tuesday.

[Kull]

If you haven't seen the Clash Web Site recently, please take a gander. We've come a loooong way! http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif

http://www.fortunecity.com/underworld/run/943/

[Mark_Everson]

Dominic and Kull:

Great Job Guys!

I checked out the alternative styles. I think style #3 is pretty good if you would lose the blinking stuff. I like having the logo up top! I personally don't like a black background, but it does show off the artwork much better. A gold metallic font, like Dominique had way back when, would look Really cool if we go with a black background. You might be able to grab that font from the old preview page if it's still up...

The flames on #2 turned me off (surprise!). I also personally prefer the "exploded" menu on the left, rather than just having the main areas shown. The cross-hair bullets looked good.

style #1 was a good no-frames version.

Overall, I think I prefer what you have as the main site now...

[Paul Crocker]

I tend to agree with Mark - I prefer the current style with the light blue background. I've also found that sites with light text on a dark background are difficult to print (the text tends to be hard to read or even illegible). I REALLY like the organization of the current site. It's really easy to navigate, and I don't feel like I'm "stuck" in any one portion of the site. I also like the music - is it original?

[Glak]

the light blue one is good for the no frames. You might as well just get rid of all the other ones, including the frames version. The dark one isn't very good. A black background with white text is great for a news site (like warcraft.org, they have a great layout) but this is more of a reference site.

[Kull]

Thanks for the comments about the web site! We do plan to maintain the current look, but Dom wants to experiment with a variety of styles, for two reasons:

1) To see what you like (and don't!)
2) To prepare for the day when the Clash Web Site transitions from a "workgroup" to a "marketing" focus (ie. when the game is ready to ship!) When that happens, a completely new look is almost going to be mandatory! It may seem like a long way off, but I commend him for the foresight.

Re the music: We didn't create it ourselves, but it's also not associated with any other game.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Kull (edited December 02, 1999).]</font>

[Kull]

New "Theme" graphics have been loaded for almost every page on the web site! Feedback is important, so please let us know (on this thread) which ones you really like...and which you don't (as unlikely as that may be!) http://apolyton.net/forums/wink.gif

[MarkG]

i strongly suggest to go with this one
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Underworld/3443/

but with the blinking >

[johnmcd]

Hi Kull, the new look is better.

The link to Map Graphics page seems to be broken.

[Kull]

johnmcd: Could you try that page again? I've tested it from two different locations, and it loads just fine.

[axi]

I can't exactly grasp the symbolism under the Multiplayer model theme picture. Could somebody explain it to me?

[Mark_Everson]

axi:

Yeah, I said the same thing, but...
The "symbolism" is that we are all free to suggest better pictures so long as they aren't copyrighted. Dominic and Kull Know some of the pictures aren't ideal http://apolyton.net/forums/wink.gif If you can manage to find alternate pictures, it would no doubt help out alot!

BTW thanks to your quick suggestion on recovering the Graphics thread document from caches. We were able to save the whole graphics thread from oblivion... http://apolyton.net/forums/smile.gif

[johnmcd]

Well I tried it again Kull and its working fine now, it must have just been one of those things. Sorry.

[shimmin]

Regarding the no-frames page...

The links in the navigation table down the left side of the screen don't work. If you are aware of this and just haven't gotten around to linking them, carry on. If not, I thought you should know.

[Kull]

shimmin: The "no-frames" page is still very much in beta. Dominic and I have been totally focused on completing the development of the frames version and migrating it over to Apolyton. With that mission complete, Dom will now be able to focus on coming up with a fully functional non-frames version.

Team: As you all may have noticed, Dom is experimenting with several different versions of the Clash web site. What do you think about having a completely different look and style for the non-frames page?

[Kanzid Stonebreath]

On the topic of the noframes version of the web site I personally think that both the versions of the web site should be the same so that people get the same sort of impression about the website wether they have frames or not.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Is something wrong with the links to the website? I haven't been able to get to it for the past few days...the frames and nonframes version.

[Mark_Everson]

Its still up, they just changed the url for the main page. If you start back at clash.apolyton.net and then click on frames you will get the new address (http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/)

[axi]

Now what has happened to the links?

Was there another change of the URLs?

All the links of the site, apart of those on the sidebar and those leading to the Apolyton threads seem to be broken.

[Mark_Everson]

Start again from scratch at clash.apolyton.net and it will work fine.
Because of a reorganization necessitated by changing the ad style, the old frame page doesn't lead anywhere anymore. You will need to bookmark the new frame page to replace the old one.

[axi]

No Mark, it's not that. Just go in the gov model page and try to retrieve any of the 4 model links and you will see what I mean. This time I went in through the Apolyton homepage, and it's the same either way.

[Mark_Everson]

Sorry axi, I misunderstood your problem.

The links to the gov pages 1-4 didn't get updated. Dominic did a Great Job on a fast update, but it was a Lot of work and some just got missed. Until its fixed you can get it it by going to http://clash.apolyton.net/models/Model-Government-1.shtml . The internal links once you're there (for the rest of the gov pages) seem to work ok.

All:

If you find a dead link most likely you can get it by just changing the *.html to *.shtml

If you find any more please report them here.

Thanks,

Mark