How Many Formers?

[Santiago_Claus]

A nuts-and-bolts question: how many formers do you build?

The strategy consensus seems to be aggressive ICS coupled with extensive use of supply crawlers ... that requires a lot of improved territory, which means a lot of formers.

Particularly if you beeline to IA you're going to have bases and a rapidly-expanding army of supply crawlers competing for a very tiny pool of improved terrain. Forest doesn't grow nearly fast enough to accomodate both. Add to this the need to expand the borders and build those turn-eating "advanced improvements" and it seems as though one resource, former-time, is gatekeeper to all other progress.

Everyone talks about supply crawlers ... what about the humble terraformer? Do you build a couple or a couple hundred?

[GeoModder]

Two a base in general. From the early midgame on this is sufficient to keep terraformed terrain up-to-date. This said, I rarely can manage to produce two a base before I need to construct a military force in defense for those pesky AI-neighbours... Drawback from playing on small map (32x64).

[CEO Aaron]

For Morgan: 1 per base until I have IA. Once I'm crawling a few mins to offset the support hit, 2 per base. Once I get clean reactors, I really go to town, building as many as 6-8 per core base. The periphery bases will have less, as I'm more preoccupied with building their infrastructure than fielding more formers.

For Zak, Dee and Cult: Always 2 formers for your first 2 bases, then 1 per additional base, again, with a second former once IA is in effect.

For Spartans, Hive, Believers, 2-3 per base, as soon as I can build them. (Yes, I play Spartans in a police state)

The important thing is to have sufficient formers to achieve your terraforming goals. Formers are the key to building a monster economy. In addition, once you've completed improvements to your core territory, you can use formers to raise land bridges, build energy parks, whatever you like.

Formers pay for themselves with alarming speed, and more than worth a little upkeep. If you played Civ or Civ 2 before this game, you know that they used to require food upkeep in addition to any other support requirements, so in that light, SMAX formers are an incredible deal.

[Googlie]

While still getting ther free row of minerals, a former, rushed if the ec's are there, befoe even a defensive scout unit

By the time I get to Ind Auto I'll have between 8 and 15 formers working.

But there's another claim on their time too (at least the way I play) and that's roads to future base sites and sensor arrays at those sites. (And if you have the PTS, sites need to be primed for nutrients as well before plonking a Colony Pod down)

A typical game (my own "Horns of a Dilemma" scenario) by 2265 I had 14 fungiformers and 3 fungiseaformers, and 16 fusion rover supply crawlers and 3 trawlers. But I was forever in getting to Ind Auto in that game.

From another game save (Miriam, 2274) I had 22 formers and 4 seaformers, with 23 crawlers and 3 trawlers.

So I guesss that evidence points to almost a 1:1 ratio for the first 150 years or so

By 2300, though the ratio is different (as is the faction - Morgan this time) - 15 formers and 2 seaformers working for 29 crawlers and 3 trawlers - about a 1:2 ratio

Same faction, now 2400, though, the ratio again is different . 13 assorted formers and 9 seaformers, with 66 crawlers and 16 trawlers. About a 1:4 ratio

My most prolific crawler game - Hive, the move before Transcendance (so no crawlers cashed in yet) - 47 fusion fungi super formers and 9 sea formers, 288 assorted crawlers and 44 trawlers - about a 1:6 ratio

But a lot depends on what you want the formers for. I've cited before a classic PBEM game where big_canuck, as the Hive, had over 300 formers and constructed a fifteen or sixteen tile land bridge to an enemy's continent, complete with roads and magtubes running from his closest base right to the enemy's HQ - all in 1 turn!!!

A follow-up question would be, as reactors get more advanced and special abilities can be added on, how many get upgrades to fusion or better, and get fitted with armor, fungitanks and super status? And with that much invested in them, do players then support them with a best armor trance AAA scout wherever they go?

G.

[CEO Aaron]

I never indulge in fungicide tanks or rover chassis for my formers. My view is that 2 slow formers is better than 1 fast one. I also think fungicide tanks are a frivolity. The 2 upgrades my formers always get when they're available are clean reactor and super former.

[GeoModder]

And fusion? Do you upgrade them to a fusion reactor?
Fungicide tanks seem indeed excessive once you have superformer ability.

[Jamski]

I find hundreds of normal formers, upgrading to clean fusion superformers is the way to go. I always end up with about 2-3 formers per base.

If I want a b-hole, I want it now, not in 24 turns time...

-Jam

[Enigma_Nova]

Rover formers are good for one thing.
Making roads appear out of nowhere.

If you have the WP and Super Formers,
Here's the time taken for ROLLING and FLAT tiles:
Road: 1 turn
Mag tube: 1 turn flat, 3 turns rolling
Raise terrain: 4 turns
So on average, it's 7 former turns per raised square.

With 1 rover former to make the initial road, the rest can be done by normal formers.
So, with (say) 210 formers you should be able to make a 30-square landbridge (provided you have the ECs to raise the bloody thing).

[GeoModder]

Perhaps founding bases on the way to minite the costs of the landraise?

[johndmuller]

When I play the Hive, which is often, I usually start out with an average of 2 formers and 2 drone-control units per base, as soon as I can scrape up the ec's to run Police. I don't necessarily build them all at once, there are some CP's mixed in there for expansion too - maybe Former, Scout, CP. It more or less stays like that, plus or minus a few extra units for exploration and/or hunting native life (the bounty is an important suource of income) until IA comes along. At that point, the inner bases might get another former or two (especially if their own have migrated out toward the frontier), and maybe another drone-control unit, unless NonLethal has arrived (I try not to use more than 2 units per base as police until the mid-game).

I don't build fusion infantry formers (except by mistake), cause they cost more than fission ones, but a fusion rover former would be OK (Someone was lobbying recently on behalf of rover formers - and I have used them some more to reevaluate them - and it seems that they do save you a lot of turns, particularlly when you are doing the initial terraforming of an area, but otherwise too. I set it as a build when I was popping a pod in the very early game - where I didn't really want anything else i could have gotten for free - and when I got the free build, I found that the rover former was really quite nice to have at that stage of the game; still doesn't seem worth building though, even if it might actually be worth it.), and I am more than happy to save the money by building fusion seaformers.

I don' t generally upgrade plain vanilla formers for fungicide, but instead I would more likely build a few new ones where there was a need for that feature in particular spots. Later in the game, I might upgrade some formers to clean, when that becomes available, but mostlly to reduce the support cost at particularly min-strapped bases. I definitely build a lot of new formers when clean is available, primarily for BH's and the like. I would be much more likely to do an upgrade to super-clean, when that is available, as the double upgrade seems more worth it to me than would just the clean by itself.

Drop formers are useful to prepare an offshore island colony site and I really like Gravship formers' ability to terraform land or sea, but playing mostly PBEMs, I hardly ever get to that stage of the game...

I almost never armor my formers or use the trance ability, there're plenty more where they came from; if it were really necessary, I might send a guard detachment along with them for protection.

In general, I try not to fill up my design workshop slots with too many variations of formers and crawlers, but I sometimes start using Synth-Fusion Infantry crawlers since IIRC they don't cost any more than unarmored fusion ones but have a 4 times better defense. I try not to use up the slot with fusion rover crawlers, but sometimes it really has to get there overnight, and that opens the floodgates. OTOH, I usually ante up the extra DW slot to add the (free) Deep Radar to a Trawler design (I lie to myself that 'I'll upgrade those existing trawlers and get the slot back'). Drop crawlers are sometimes useful too, but I mostly use that to get crawlers to an SP-producing-base quicker.

[Livid_Imp]

At least 2 formers per base for me, and don't shy away from former variants. Rover formers are worth it if you dedicate them to road construction. Two rover formers can move in, build a road on a rolling tile in one turn....or two flat tiles in the same time. This of course makes all of your formers and crawlers more efficient. I like to make a couple fungi formers also for pre-clearing large fungus patches for future city sites.
By the time fusion comes around, most of my core bases are pulling in enough mins that building fusion rover formers is no more time to build than equivient infantry formers. Building fission infantry formers is a waste of mins at that point.

[Commy]

Okay, I build like one former per base at the most. First off, I play the Morgans, so with the population drawbacks there's no need to rush any terraforming, and I'm lazy, so I like doing as little as possible. I don't build sensors or bunkers or boreholes or condensors or any of that crap. I build my bases in really good spots, terraform a few forests, let them grow, hurry hybrid forests, and then all I have to do is build magtubes and monitor fungus pops. Very simple, just two improvements, mags and forests in each square. Usually, I just use the good old original formers until I get all the techs and if I'm in a good mood, I just might go to the workshop to build a gravship former with clean reactor and superformer abilities. It's magic,

[Velociryx]

SMAC is still on my hard drive...:)

I play with the Aldeberan mod, so no clean reactors or any of the other goodies that human players love...a much slower game with REALLY 'spensive SP's and stuff.

Early game mineral count per base, I like to target four, rush one former, a token scout to guard the base, and then however many formers I can squeeze out and still keep four mins for early infrastructure.

Two project bases (a min res on a rocky tile is ideal for this) that get to keep 100% of their industrial capacity.

Formers operate in teams...two are on new base site detail (see Googlie's post), the rest gang-forming a better road network, planting forests, making farms, or doing solar panels to eek out as much energy as possible in the early game. Reach nine bases pronto then stop expanding til I get the HGP done. Nine more bases right after it completes, cos the extra talent offsets the b-drones. Former guards are the free, no-support troops (scout and any rovers found in pods). Eventually, a random base near a min res starts churning out scouts to guard the formers and such, but it's not a priority, and the "GDI's" (my indie units) get upgraded to combat configurations and usually go off looking for trouble.

Aldeberan mod pushes the WP back to a midgame project, so there's no early game boreholing going on, and all basic terraforming is usually done on the continent pretty quickly....fine by me, and the formers are sacrified afterwardss to help speed build projects (aldeberan mod, blind research, can take 150+ years to get IA, so you gotta do what you gotta do). 'sides, I can rebuild the formers later when the advanced terraforming options become available.

Round three of expansion occurs after the VW completes, and again, b-drones are countered by free base facilities...at that point, it's getting close to time to rebuild the former fleet, and generally each base will get two, to speed thru borehole and condenser construction.

Because the flow of an Aldeberan mod game is so different, I never have much need for formers with specials, tho I still like canaries with teeth, so most of mine get rebuilt with armor and other defensive niceties (count as combat units, get morale upgrades...very handy, since I like to use formers offensively).

-=Vel=-

[Snowflake]

In the beginning I usually build 2 formers or one former and one scout so that they don't eat any support. As young after Police I at least build 2 formers per base. When the game progress I often build more formers/crawlers when I have spare building time.

[Chaos Theory]

Early on, ~2 per base. Once I plonk down a few boreholes (or rocky-mineral special-mines), as many as 10 per base, before I even get clean reactors. After that, as many as I need.

[Enigma_Nova]

10 per base.
I take it that's Growth per turn in Borehole Plonk Mode?

[Chaos Theory]

E_N:
Care to rephrase that unambiguously?

[Enigma_Nova]

Pop boom: Faction gains 1 extra worker per turn
Boreholes cost 24 former turns per hole.

Farm/Enrich/Condenser vs. Borehole,
You'd -need- that many formers to get the terrain done ahead of the pop boom.

So it's Growth per turn Borehole Plonk Mode.
That gives me an idea...

/me goes off to CMN a custom alphax where all terraforming takes one turn, and nothing has prereqs

[smacksim]

As many formers as I can bear!

Got to love them and hate them because turns take so long, but just peek over the AI's shoulder and feel proud former team, feel proud.

As to numbers, it's initial: former->defender->rec tanks
by the time I've got drone control, I've got EC's, so it's : rec tanks->former->defender

Rec tanks are gold.

Around the time the first crawlers are trudging to their destinations, I've got 1-2 formers at 9-15 bases.

Once the initial bases have some minerals, I'll have 2-5+ formers per base until Clean, at which point, they all get upgraded (cost ~ 1200 ECs) This is a big cost, so I plan all along for it. If I'm not going to make the cost of upgrading to Clean, I'll 1. stop making formers. 2. make more ECs!

After Clean, I'll average 7 or so formers per base, depending on if I'm expanding like mad or just building up to a boom.

The Planetary Transit System makes things interesting. I don't really pre-form for new bases in either case, just build roads to the general area, if they're lucky! I'd rather terraform inside a base radius where the productive tiles are immediately used. Anyways, my cure for the PTS 'Citizens at half your ****** bases are starving you moron!', is to send crawlers with, or just ahead of the sprawling Colony Pod army. 10 transports with a CP and crawler in each will just seal the fate of most AI.

And if you'd like to play the Aldebaran mod that Vel mentioned above, I'll be reposting it this week (here and/or at Googlie's site, and/or at my own sites). It DOES push crawlers back a bit, which cuts down on turn length, but those poor formers, who will buy their beer?

-Smack

[Blake]

As usual the answer depends, for a faction like Hive that needs LOTS of terraformers, I usually start with 2-3 per base, then more formers get built as more bases get built. I probably wont build more later on, starting with such a huge population. For none-hive I start with 1-2 per base, altough if I have no buildable infrastructure I'll start eating up the support on more formers - atleast if I can build boreholes/condensors/rivers/raise land (ie beelined eco.eng or have WP)

When playing crawerless (or with crawlers, for that matter) I devote 1 or more high mineral base (ie working a borehole) to pumping out a stream of formers. These bases pump formers until they get down to about 5 minerals (for nut special + 2 boreholes + rec tanks, thats 12 formers), then resume infrastructure development. Later on when I mass-upgrade to clean these bases get freed of their support burden and often become my frontier industrial powerhouses (like candidates to get a fun sphere and be devoted to military production)

Generally my former population caps at 40-90, a lot depends on how quickly I get super formers (which is usually a priority for me), like once I get super formers I tend to stop building many more. Also I tend to build lots more upon getting clean. Once mag-tubes arrive I like to attack, with land bridge/tube/l337 infantry, I rarely ever upgrade formers with defense, they'll die to air anyway. They also don't need armor to defend a base against worms.

[#endgame]

I'd go for about 4 per base at least - 2 pre Clean Reactors, and 2 after. Also, build transports on infantry chassis. Load a former into the transport, move transport into empty square, unload former (if done right, the former will still have its move), build road. rest of the former army moves in and starts work (thanks Ogie!). Makes them about as handy as rover formers in the speed department.

[Santiago_Claus]

When I got to hab domes I had built 95 formers.

That's the benchmark: how many formers, not per base but just raw count, do you have by the time you reach certain technology milestones?

To start this exercise off I'll quote the first figure:

Upon discovering Super Tensile Solids (Hab Domes) I had 95 Super/Clean infantry formers and no other types.

[Frankychan]

Normally I play as the Hive, so I'll do 2 per base. When I can upgrade my formers, I'll make an additional one and just gangtackle any terraforming project with my formers, then disband the old ones.

Usually by then I'll have most of what I want already terraformed.

[smacksim]

Santi, I don't get it. Why measure former totals? On huge maps it's much different than just large. Sometimes we play for Transcendence, sometimes for fastest win. I think Formers/Base for a Huge/Transcendence game is the kind of game where I'll break 200 formers. Per base, it's not very high though, as those tend to be mad ICS games.

TechStag - Huge - Transcend - No Energy Park = ~200 formers.

-Smack

[Santiago_Claus]

Smacksim, I think you've answered your own question already: the number of bases is a factor which clouds the real picture of the number of formers built and thus the terrain area / time the player is able to manipulate. A raw former count was my attempt to control for the variable of base spacing.

What I'm curious to know is "how much terraforming power do you give yourself in order to reach your goals?" "Terraforming power" is independent of number of bases, except to the degree that usable territory affects that number. (Base sites themselves are also a factor, if one views building a base as an act of terraforming.)

Map size and research parameters (stagnation, blind, or double-blind) do seem critically important, and I totally overlooked both.

I built my 95 formers on a large map, directed research, and my goal was Transcendence. I drew the line at Super Tensile Solids because the earlier a former is built the more valuable it will have been. It didn't occur to me that tech stagnation increases the value of formers built later in the game.

[jtsisyoda]

I usually track it by city, because support is almost the only limitation to how many I build. But Santi has a point that base size and spacing variations can make that misleading. Maybe we should be measuring this as formers per square of territory?

[smacksim]

How about getting several variables and then seeing if they are at all related (Anova anyone?)

Standard Game (must define):

Formers/Base
Formers/Base/Each Faction
Formers Total @ Hab Domes
Formers Total @ Transcendence
Formers Total w/ Energy Park
Formers Total w/out Energy Park
Formers Total w/Weather Paradigm

And so on. If we made a little printable chart then players could measure their own stats from savegames and report back. It would be nifty to see a graph with even 10 sets of data.

-Smack

[CEO Aaron]

My advice is to eschew fixed formulae, and merely use 2 per base until you research clean. At that point, you can crank more as your terraforming model permits. Look at your total territorial development. Does it still need improvement? Make more formers.

[Whoha]

I try for 2 per base. Later on if I feel the need to spam them out I do that.

[Sikander]

In my current game I have 18 bases and 130 formers (clean & clean + super), in 2116. I probably had them all by about 2100 though, as I've been busy building orbital improvements, colony pods, facilities and military units for a while now.

[Skanky Burns]

I'm ICSing in my current game, and probably have an average of 3 per base. I am still expanding, so need more formers to prep new base sites.

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Sikander
In my current game I have 18 bases and 130 formers (clean & clean + super), in 2116. I probably had them all by about 2100 though, as I've been busy building orbital improvements, colony pods, facilities and military units for a while now.

Sik, I hope you mean 2216. I mean, doesn't the game start in 2101?

[Kody]

Sikander is just that good. :D

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Kody
Sikander is just that good. :D

Sig material! Everyone put it in your sigs now. Except me of course, I'm too modest. Probably the most modest person I know.

Oh, and yes 2216 is the correct date.

[Kody]

Sure anything that draws attention away from me. ;)

[GeoModder]

Sig material again? :D

[Kody]

Sig material! Everyone put it in your sigs now. Except me of course, I'm too modest. Probably the most modest person I know.


Sig material again? :D

Heh probably.

[Enigma_Nova]

Sikander isn't just that good,
it's that Kody is just a little too crap. :p

Do the math. You can't get that many units by 2118.
If your bases double every 3 turns:
2101 2 bases
2104 4 bases
2107 8 bases
2110 16 bases
2113 32 bases
2116 64 bases

Then in 2101-2103, the 2 bases had 6 turns, making 2 pods and 4 other units. (Presume you make something every turn)

in 2104-2106, there are 4 pods and 8 other units.
...
The total 'other units' are:
4 + 8 + 16 + 32 + 64 = 128-4 = 124.
Then Mind Worms eliminate all but 18 of your bases.
You only have 124 formers, not 130.

The growth presumption may be a bit off - but if anyone can show me a save with 65 bases by 2116, good luck to them!

[Straybow]

I usually have 2 per base ASAP. Sometimes I build them in a dedicated city and home them where necessary. Coastal cities contributing one seaformer is usually enough to get by.

When time to build bholes and a serious energy park nearby established bases will each crank out a couple extra formers (current game has a large highland in the middle of the continent 5 tiles wide, perfect for 3 rows of solars separated by 2 rows of mirrors).

That probably raises the average to 3½ per base.

I haven't played MP, but against the AI a couple hardened formers can frustrate air-raids. I like the AAA mod, too (with the txt change). :)

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Kody
Sure anything that draws attention away from me. ;)

:lol:

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Sikander
:lol:
:nono:

[Skanky Burns]

:rolleyes:

[Enigma_Nova]

:q::stunned::b:

[Chaunk]

:ana:

[Illuminatus]

<center><img src=http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/legionxs/fart.gif></center>


[/end smilie posts in this thread]

[Skanky Burns]

:good:

[Chaunk]

:lol:

[Enigma_Nova]

:D
+
:D
+
:D
=
:ban:

[Illuminatus]

:bored: To get back on topic: when do you stop building additional formers (if you ever stop) ?

[Enigma_Nova]

:idea::b:
Never stop.

[Blake]

:unban: Stop building formers when your going to fullscale war, or when you predict the game will end in like 15 turns.

[Chaunk]

Or when you have enough formers for your terraforming needs. A pure forest and forget strategy isn't going to need 2000 formers.

[Chaos Theory]

Pause building formers when your support costs are high (and you don't yet have clean reactors). Build new bases instead which can support even more formers. Then continue.

[Commy]

Hmmm, well I stop building formers when I have one per base. Am probably going to get shot for saying this...

[Enigma_Nova]

I usually ICS it up in the early game and get 2 formers per base. With those formers, I spam the crawlers - which have good stuff to crawl.
With those crawlers, I get SPs that enable me to further ICS.
and so on until I spam choppers and win. :b:

[smacksim]

Well I just crossed over the 300 formers mark in my current huge-techstag game as Morgan. And yes, they are all clean. Made two energy parks, one in a protected ocean, one on a mountain near the south pole. Tried a few clean-rover formers, but until fusion they are a waste of mins to produce.

A nice game after having played the industry-crippled Spartangos for a few games to see if I could 'make' them be builders.

-Smack

[Chaos Theory]

If you're going to make a few elaborate formers (such as rover formers) and they're expensive to start with, don't bother adding clean at all, and just upgrade them to fusion clean when the opportunity presents itself.

[Sikander]

I usually quit building them more or less permanently about the time I get satellites. At that point everyone is making satellites for a while and my production soars. As it does I am always getting some new great thing to build in my bases. Of course I usually have well over a hundred formers by this time, so it isn't like I don't have enough already.

[Straybow]

Stop? Building? Formers? :confused:

Well, I recently had 2 games lock up on me about the time I'd gotten to Singularity. I'd get Terran.exe error every time I did anything except move a piece (terraform, crawl, attack). Does that qualify?

[Enigma_Nova]

What's yer rig like?

[Straybow]

Brand new as of January. HP a410e Athlon XP2800, integrated ProSavage, integrated sound. XP Pro. Only 256M (which I intended to upgrade ASAP, but variable workload has dropped off).

:( My latest game locks up during base processing, and so far no changes to the save (un-Hold-ing units and moving them, changing production, hurrying production) has prevented it. Tried about 6 times before giving up.

[Enigma_Nova]

Use a nifty program called 'task manager' to see if you've run out of memory.

I don't know what the fault is, sorry. I never have problems with SMAX on my
P4_2.4GHz 512MB_DDR + (lots of good stuff) rig.

I should get a better rig eventually, though.

[Chaos Theory]

Thanks to virtual memory, computers almost never run out of ordinary memory (i.e. not system resources, the limited, mismanaged memory Windows needs) these days. However, if you run out of physical memory, your computer will slow down.

[Straybow]

I use FastDefrag2 (http://www.amsn.ro) to clean up the flotsam and jetsam left behind by apps and OS. Several cleanings can get huge hunks of memory freed up.

The problem still occurs, even with a freshly booted PC & a sweep or two of FastDefrag.

[jtsisyoda]

Win XP with 256MB RAM is pushing your luck, IMHO. This is the equivalent of supporting three formers with Morgan running Democracy. Run a Hive Police State by getting 1GB RAM like me. :D

*Trying desperately to get back on topic*

[smacksim]

I was going to say similar. XP grabs all the memory it feels like. 256 isn't an unreasonable lunch for XP. I'd run 98 with that amount of memory. 512 is minimum IMHO. With memory so cheap, what's the excuse?

-Smack

[Skanky Burns]

XP reserves 256mb for itself if you have more than that on your system. Regarding 98 - it doesn't recognise any memory over 256 or 512 - I forget which. The point is, adding more memory is like having your reserve energy at over 20,000. Sure, it makes you feel good but it doesn't help you any until you start using it.

[Chaos Theory]

I think Win98 can handle up to 2 GB of memory, though that's also a limit on combined physical and virtual memory.

If you run sysmon (in Win98, not sure what other windows flavors have) you can monitor your memory usage. If you routinely exhaust it, get more or change your habits. If not, then like Skanky said, don't worry about it.

As a programmer, I know how to use arbitrarily large amounts of memory, and so will get more than I think I will use regularly. I might get a whim to generate a 12800x10240 picture...

[Straybow]

Unfortunately, I'm still stuck with simple economy. I'd like to switch to FM, but I can't find a faction who will trade me the tech. Yang is supposed to be paying me back a 200 EC loan, but I'm not holding my breath.

In other words, the plan was to upgrade as soon as I got a little scratch (and as you said, it doesn't take much). My 2nd job, whence cometh all funds for diversions such as computer games, has folded on me. Theoretically it still exists, and will provide me some hours (including back pay of a couple hundred bucks) any day now…

[Skanky Burns]

My point was that 98 can not use more than 512mb of physical memory. You may stick 16gb in there, but only the first 512mb will ever get touched no matter how large an amount of memory you request. Though I guess the point is moot since Stray has XP. ;)

[Straybow]

:hmmm: FastDefrag2 has consistently claimed 30-50 mb free while running SMAC, so that isn't the problem.

:idea: I found out the cause, quite by accident. While checking for memory usage with various operations I switched wallpapers. Then I loaded up SMAC, and a save that previously worked suddenly didn't work. I tried a few other "good" saves and found a second that locked up. The sound was messed up, too.

:confused: XP allows jpgs for wallpaper, and in switching I had gone to one of the jpgs that came with XP. Switching back to a randomly chosen bmp, and now the 2 saves were again "good." Switching to None fixed 2 other saves that had been "bad." (The third had been deleted or overwritten.)

:angry: Dang XP

[Enigma_Nova]

WTF?
What do the wallpapers have to do with anything?
Must be a memory issue.

[Chaos Theory]

I found that I couldn't run Ragnarok Online unless I had first played a bit of SMAX. Also, if I have point32.dll running, SMAX suffers from the interceptor bug. If I don't, it doesn't.

[Enigma_Nova]

Very weird.
Well, I can't explain it. Send it to the techs at Micro$uck and see if they know! :p

[livid imp]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
WTF?
What do the wallpapers have to do with anything?
Must be a memory issue.

Actually, using jpgs as wallpaper can cause problems. In order for XP to use jpgs as a wallpaper it turns on "Active Desktop" which is infamous for causing bugs/crashes in applications.

[smacksim]

The whole 'Active Desktop' thing is just gross. Why the **** did they have to dump web-pages-on-desktop into the same barrel as jpeg-on-desktop or any other non-net thing? It's innane.

-Smack

[Enigma_Nova]

It's crazy, too. But then again...
Micro$oft.
Where would you like to Crash today?

[livid imp]

I use Active Desktop at my work 2000 and home xp computers. Only ever had one minor glitch with it. I dare say I like it even. You can always turn it off if it gives you trouble.

[Darrell01]

I build usually 2 per base, unless I have clean reactor, or I am on a warpath, then I'll have some of my border cities build formers to home on the newly conquered bases. I build 2 formers for landlocked bases, 1 former and 1 sea former for coastal bases, and usually 2 sea formers with sea bases.

I build rover formers exclusively if I can. They get +1 movement and they cost +30 minerals. This is 1.5 more cost to the former. My thinking on it is normal formers only have one movement. So, this extra 30 mineral cost has to make up for itself in the former. Well, the typical former will last until the end of the game, which can be from 250 to 350 depending on the settings. That's +140 movement, assuming I'm the Spartans and I can churn one out in 10 turns. So when I have no roads, the former can move in and start terraforming on the same turn, effectively doubling my terraforming for 1 turn. When there are roads, I can move 6 squares, as opposed to 3, again, doubling my terraformer for that turn. If I'm under Power, and built them with a Command Center and a Bioenchancement Center, they will have 3 movement, allowing me to road the Rocky areas in one turn. If not, 2 formers can jump in there while the others plant forests and sensor towers around the Borehole/Mine. Building road expanses helps with the rover formers. at 2 movement and with enuf formers, you can build roads out to 3 length per turn as opposed to 1 every other turn, or 2 every 2 turns if you do it with normal formers. And once I have magtubes, I can build magtube land bridges as far as I want as long as I have enough rovers and don't run into rocky areas. I count the speed of targeted terraforming more important that massive slow outgrowth in terraforming. Especially when I need to get my formers from one side of a huge continent to another without mag tubes. If I keep my T-1-1 formers, I like to stick superformer on them, of course, and at first clean reactor, then antigrav struts. If I have no elite rover formers, I use these to build my roads on rocky areas, as they have 2 movement and only cost 1 to move on rocky areas. I use the same reasoning with the sea formers, most of the time. However, once I get fusion power, its straight cruiser formers and rover formers. Fusion Rover Formers cost 30, only 10 above the normal former. And once I have a ton of formers, have more mineral efficiency because more of my formers get thier job done with the upkeep costs involved with just the normal formers. I completely skip fungicidal. My extra movement makes up for the fungicidal in the long run with all 6 or 3 with Xenoempathy Dome getting in the fungus at once. Sometimes I switch it up a bit if I have a lot of support and make T-1-2Drop for maps with a lot of little islands. Typically I never make my elevation higher and have yet to make an energy park.

Once I get gravships, I do not make any more sea formers. I make grav formers instead.

[CEO Aaron]

Hi, Darrell. Just a couple of things about your comments on rover formers. Having a few around for instant builds of roads is certainly commendable, but I prefer to keep a mix of my slow and fast formers. Why? Well, for one thing, the only circumstance in which a rover former is preferrable to a infantry former is when a) there's no rocks or trees and b) there's no road. By and large, the rest of the time, your formers are gradually spreading in an outward pattern. For another, by the time rover formers become economically feasible, I'm mostly out of the business of former building. Before Fusion, a clean rover former costs 8 mineral rows, and a clean former costs only 3. And by and large, if your formers aren't spending most of their time forming rather than moving, you're not making good use of them. True, rolling your rover former into a flat or rolling square will save one former turn, but even a modest terraforming plan of just roads and forests will keep that former there for another 4-5 turns (3-4 if you've got the weather paradigm). Assuming even optimal conditions, your rover will save one turn out of every 5, making it 20% better than a normal, slow former. But it isn't 20% more expensive to build, it's 150% more expensive to build, and that's before clean reactors, when the price delta is even more extreme. And if your terraforming strategy is more intensive, ie: building farms, condensers and boreholes, your formers will spend even more of their time forming instead of moving. The final nail in the coffin of the all rover former force is the fact that once a square is roaded, the turn advantage of rover formers all but disappears. If you're moving your normal former 2 roaded spaces or less, the last 1/3 of movement spent beginning a terraforming project counts as a full former-turn.

To sum up, yes, rover formers are good to have around. By all means, build a couple to accelerate your road growth. But building an all rover former force comes at too steep a premium to warrant the improvement you gain in their terraforming rate.

[Kataphraktoi]

Rover formers are utterly useless unless they are building roads.

Myself, i ussualy end up with 2 formers per every crawler. That is, hundreds. Im not sure why, and i dont try to keep it a simple 2\1 ratio, it just works out that way. More condensors, please.