DESIGN: New Diplomanager

[Martin Gühmann]

Let's take a look on the current Diplomanager. We have on the left side some options like different diplomacy tones or different proposal types. On the right side we have the civ parchment of the sender, the year the recipient and now also a little thumbnail of the recipient. :D

You could handle in two ways diplomacy, on the one side you can exchange letters between the two parties, that is how the current Diplomanager models it. But on the other hand the leaders could meet each other, that is the way how it is handled in Civ1 and IIRC and so far what I have seen in Civ3. In Civ2 you had messenger or legates.

To summarise it in my opinion to use the meeting model diplomacy has more atmosphere than the letter model.

Therefore I would like to see a diplomanager with a big leader picture in the middle of a size like those of CTP1 or at that place some annimated leaders. Under the picture there should be the threaty text or the conversation. Also there should be the treaty options not on one side for symmetry maybe also under the picture, but year and recipient can be placed over the picture.

-Martin

[Solver]

Definitely go for a Civ 3 model with the bargaining table, where anything you and the other civ have, and treaties, can be proposed in any combination. It's obviously superior to the current model.

[Martin Gühmann]

So something like puuting the offers on the left side and the demands on the right side. In that style we should but then the mutual treaties on both sides. It should also be a tree like structure that can be reduced to top points or can be enlarged to fully details something like a file manager like structure, but you have now categories like gold, cities, techs etc... That way we could also fix the too many city bug, so that we put scrollbars on the sides.

-Martin

[The Big Mc]

the kind of thing in ctp one where you changed the ambassadors head to the best looking woman in the pictures (never did find a good one):D

could this not stifle mod making :D

but if we find a way to make it so negotiations can see a person or more likely a ambassador. Which allows us to make mods like kill the ambassador or force them to go home for more “FUN”:evilgrin:



We could possibly make it possible to do with letters for mods of un included civs :D

[Solver]

Martin, in your second post you described the Civ3 bargaining table very well :). As far as I can see, it's the best way we can do that - and any Civ game, at that.

[child of Thor]

There are flaws with the Civ3 approach, or there was, doesnt it sometimes agree to really bad treaties? We'd need a very good AI routine to avoid unbalanced deals......dont want to give the player more advantages in the game?

[Solver]

The flaws in Civ 3 were those related to gameplay. The interface is what I'm mentioning as (near) perfect.

[child of Thor]

ok. I've not played it yet so i wasn't sure on all the details, but i guess the kind of 'offer anything for anything else' approach would require you had a balance cost to 'all' items that could be used in the diplomacy - some hidden(or not) value that everything adheres too? eg:

"i will give you a non-trespass treaty(value=30x)+our knowledge of trade(value=50x) in exchange for your Maps(value=10x),300 gold(value=??x),your knowledge of Iron working(value=70x), and a non-aggresion pact(value=50x)"

the x value could be gold i guess or something hidden? but the AI would need this to get an idea of the deal you want to work out with it, and wether or not it was a reasonable thing to ask for.

So for CTP2 i would guess this would be a whole new addition to the way it does its diplomacy ?

[Solver]

Yes, it would be a new system, but Civ 3, generally, seems to handle it pretty well, except for maybe a few ridicilous deals it accepts. The AI's value system is OK - Soren did a great job there.

After all, it should be obvious that the "anything for anything" approach is much more fun for the end player.

On an unrelated notice. I believe there should be no "no trespass treaty" - rather, trespassing shouldn't be allowed, unless a Right of Passage agreement is signed. One of the things I like about Civ 3 - AI gets angry if you wander in its land.

[The Big Mc]

child of Thor

problem is that your idea is bad I say

I give you advanced infantry(+80 ) + gold500(+10) etc(99) etc()

For all you cities :D

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Solver
The flaws in Civ 3 were those related to gameplay. The interface is what I'm mentioning as (near) perfect.

And the interface is the topic of this thread in the first place.

Originally posted by Solver
After all, it should be obvious that the "anything for anything" approach is much more fun for the end player.

Yes and I think this is also the intention behind the CTP2 system. But is missing is a value system, of course you have the regard system, but there is no cost function for the single offers, requests and treaties. For instance if Civ A gives to Civ B gives a city than this treaty should have a high prize for Civ A of course for Civ B it is a very high gain. So if the Ai gives that city it needs something in return maybe a better located city. Well this has to be worked out more.

Originally posted by Solver
On an unrelated notice. I believe there should be no "no trespass treaty" - rather, trespassing shouldn't be allowed, unless a Right of Passage agreement is signed. One of the things I like about Civ 3 - AI gets angry if you wander in its land.

In the default game the first diplomatic proposal you get from an AI civ is a no trespass request. Is needed because before contact is made you have no idea where there teritory is needed, but it needs a fixed length and if there are needs again and again for such requests than the AI should get mad. But by default I think the AI gets mad if you are trespassing, espeacilly with treaty but it is not very obvious. So such a right of passage should be granted. Maybe a right for seapassage only should be cheaper than the same treaty for right of land passage.

And another remark about diplomacy itsself but more interface related. In the current model we have three types of proposals treaties, offers and requests. Of course a civ can offer a treaty or can demand it, but in the end it appears on both sides of the leader image. We can put the offers and demands on differnt sides but then why the difference between request give map and offer give map, we need just one of these proposals, and who gives whom should be clear from the screen side.

And here something from the Apolyton Directory so that we all know how the screen looks in Civ3:

http://apolyton.net/civ3/images/screenshots/gd-oct-23.jpg

-Martin

[The Big Mc]

this section is fuzzy

for example a packed to reduce nukes to lets say 100 a civ is beneficial to a civ with 10 to your 1000. but on the over hand it could easily be reversed:D

[Peter Triggs]

"i will give you a non-trespass treaty(value=30x)+our knowledge of trade(value=50x) in exchange for your Maps(value=10x),300 gold(value=??x),your knowledge of Iron working(value=70x), and a non-aggresion pact(value=50x)"

the x value could be gold i guess or something hidden? but the AI would need this to get an idea of the deal you want to work out with it, and wether or not it was a reasonable thing to ask for.

So for CTP2 i would guess this would be a whole new addition to the way it does its diplomacy ?


Yes and no. The CTP2 AI does employ a system sort of like you describe above. Here's part of the printout from a debug log with some comments added:


Diplomat.cpp@3349: Player 1 sets New Proposal for player 4: first = REQUEST_GIVE_ADVANCE .
Diplomat.cpp@3351: second = OFFER_GIVE_ADVANCE.
Diplomat.cpp@2502: Player 1 set Response: INVALID for player 4.//initialize
Diplomat.cpp@2502: Player 4 set Response: INVALID for player 1.
Diplomat.cpp@690 : Player 4 has initiative.
Diplomat.cpp@3374: Player 1 executes New Proposal for player 4: first = REQUEST_GIVE_ADVANCE .
Diplomat.cpp@3376: second = OFFER_GIVE_ADVANCE.
Diplomat.cpp@2418: Player 4 considers Response: REJECT for player 1.

// first check if we want to swap

ProposalRespons@549 : Executing AdvanceExchange_ProposalResponseEvent: C:\Activision\Ctp2\ctp2_code\ai\diplomacy\ProposalResponseEvent.cpp@517

// a whole bunch of stuff that you can't see has happened at this point

ProposalAnalysi@88 : Evaluated NEW PROPOSAL [sender = 1, receiver = 4]
ProposalAnalysi@89 : first = REQUEST_GIVE_ADVANCE
ProposalAnalysi@90 : second = OFFER_GIVE_ADVANCE
ProposalAnalysi@95 :
ProposalAnalysi@96 : Sender Result:
ProposalAnalysi@97 : science = -6563
ProposalAnalysi@98 : gold = 0
ProposalAnalysi@99 : production = 0
ProposalAnalysi@100 : regard = 45
ProposalAnalysi@101 :
ProposalAnalysi@102 : Receiver Result:
ProposalAnalysi@103 : science = 6563
ProposalAnalysi@104 : gold = 0
ProposalAnalysi@105 : production = 0
ProposalAnalysi@106 : regard = 96

// next check if we want to sell it

ProposalRespons@370 : Executing PayForAdvance_ProposalResponseEvent: C:\Activision\Ctp2\ctp2_code\ai\diplomacy\ProposalResponseEvent.cpp@338

// more unseen stuff

ProposalAnalysi@88 : Evaluated NEW PROPOSAL [sender = 1, receiver = 4]
ProposalAnalysi@89 : first = REQUEST_GIVE_ADVANCE
ProposalAnalysi@90 : second = OFFER_GIVE_ADVANCE
ProposalAnalysi@95 :
ProposalAnalysi@96 : Sender Result:
ProposalAnalysi@97 : science = -6563
ProposalAnalysi@98 : gold = 0
ProposalAnalysi@99 : production = 0
ProposalAnalysi@100 : regard = 45
ProposalAnalysi@101 :
ProposalAnalysi@102 : Receiver Result:
ProposalAnalysi@103 : science = 6563
ProposalAnalysi@104 : gold = 0
ProposalAnalysi@105 : production = 0
ProposalAnalysi@106 : regard = 96

Diplomat.cpp@2418: Player 4 considers Response: REJECT for player 1.
Diplomat.cpp@2418: Player 4 considers Response: ACCEPT for player 1.
Diplomat.cpp@693 : Player 1 has initiative.
Diplomat.cpp@2418: Player 1 considers Response: REJECT for player 4.
Diplomat.cpp@2418: Player 1 considers Response: REJECT for player 4.
Diplomat.cpp@2502: Player 1 set Response: REJECT for player 4.
Diplomat.cpp@2602:
Diplomat.cpp@2604: >>> Agreement REJECTED by player 1. //'by player 2 for player 1' would read better


You can see what factors it takes into account: science, gold, production and regard. But this isn't done uniformly: the way it takes them into account depends on the Proposal and many other things. Even though I (player 1) was offering player 4 a good deal, they rejected it (I think) because they didn't like me.

[The Big Mc]

the big mc nodes is head not understanding a word of the code :D

I had to threaten an ai to take hold of a tech ones it was funny they were in the renascence age to my diamond :D

[Solver]

Just for the record - the actual Civ 3 interface is a bit cleaner, Martin's shot comes from the beta.

Of course, the code posted above would have to be changed quite a bit...

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Solver
Just for the record - the actual Civ 3 interface is a bit cleaner, Martin's shot comes from the beta.

But only a little bit cleaner, well at least if I compare it with a conquest screenshot from the directory. They changed the font size and modified the diplomatic advisor window a little bit. But actual the idea is not a one to one copy, I thought rather of a window than of multiple windows. Of course we can also do it like they did , but it is easier to use ctp2 standart list box for the left and right options, because these list box already exists and it would also be coherent with the rest of the interface. Of course we can also replace the entire UI art, but that is another topic. And no source code modification is necessary to do this.

-Martin

[Solver]

Well, the CtP2 listboxes are nice. But to allow for anything-for-anything trades, we would have to modify the source... a simple design (as in layout) change isn't worth it, IMO.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Solver
Well, the CtP2 listboxes are nice. But to allow for anything-for-anything trades, we would have to modify the source... a simple design (as in layout) change isn't worth it, IMO.

The source needs to be modified in any case, I can write another list box into the *.ldl files but without a source change it wouldn't appear, and then we need to put something into it, also a source change needed. And finally we need the new diplomacy modell in it.

-Martin

[Solver]

Right. While the system itself can be implemented with relatively few source changes (and ready for us with humans), there would be some heavy AI changes required.

[Martin Gühmann]

The problem is that some heavy source changes are needed anyway to make work even the default system.

-Martin

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Peter Triggs
Yes and no. The CTP2 AI does employ a system sort of like you describe above. Here's part of the printout from a debug log with some comments added:

You can see what factors it takes into account: science, gold, production and regard. But this isn't done uniformly: the way it takes them into account depends on the Proposal and many other things. Even though I (player 1) was offering player 4 a good deal, they rejected it (I think) because they didn't like me.

Looking at the list you pasted - i would ask why is palyer 1's(your) science at -6563, whereas player4 is at +6563? maybe this is the reason for the rejection, and if it is what would cause such a large difference between your science levels? the fact that the values are the same(except one negative and one positive), seems a little odd too dont you think? Or is it just like this in computer land?

[Peter Triggs]

The science result is based on the relative costs of the two proposals: I requested Communism (13756) and offered Mass Media (20319). So the sender's net science gain was -6563 and the receiver's was +6563. But the first thing it does after it does this analysis is to check the receiver's regard towards the sender. If it's less than NEUTRAL (500 out of a 1000), it rejects by default.

Martin's right, BTW, we're going to have to supplement both the way that proposals are generated from motivations and the AI's response logic if we want a more robust system. But I think this is going to need some careful thought: I've always thought that there's a serious clash when you allow both a conquest victory and a diplomatic victory. In order to allow for the possibility of the latter, you've got to have an AI that will allow it's players to make friends with the human player. If it does this too easily, the human player can exploit it when he's going after a conquest victory.

I've actually never played for a diplomatic victory. Has anybody? How hard is it? And finally, has anybody tried a diplomatic victory in multiplayer.

[Maquiladora]

Diplomatic victories are the easiest and quickest victory in single player, its just a case of threatening the AI into allying when you have a much better military.

I never got a Diplomacy victory in MP but thats because we exclude Diplomats so in 2v2 games you cant exchange techs and we reach War Walkers in 200 turns.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Peter Triggs
The science result is based on the relative costs of the two proposals: I requested Communism (13756) and offered Mass Media (20319). So the sender's net science gain was -6563 and the receiver's was +6563. But the first thing it does after it does this analysis is to check the receiver's regard towards the sender. If it's less than NEUTRAL (500 out of a 1000), it rejects by default.

It is a difficuilt question if you should reject such an offer by default if you don't like them, it would be a good change to improve the relations and the question is if this deal could be advantious in some way.

But I think we need more flexible treaties to compensate the price diffrence like:

OK I give you this advance in return for that advance and I give you something else to compensate the costs.

-Martin

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann


It is a difficuilt question if you should reject such an offer by default if you don't like them, it would be a good change to improve the relations and the question is if this deal could be advantious in some way.

But I think we need more flexible treaties to compensate the price diffrence like:

OK I give you this advance in return for that advance and I give you something else to compensate the costs.

-Martin

Yes so in some ways the Civ3 way of doing it is much better at sorting out a compromise exchange than the one we have in CTP2 - we can do quite a bit, its just that it seems more often than not even a very generous offer from yourself is rejected by the AI, well it s seems like it.........i dont want AI 'yes men', but something that actually makes you think, ' Yes in that circumstance it was a good trade/exchange - i would have agreed to it myself' . If we can get close to that then its great:)

[Martin Gühmann]

I see am interface limit problem, I would like to have parchments on that the selected offers and the requests are put. In that setup the space is limited, if we put the selected stuff into list boxes, we could make deals with a lot of stuff in it, but I feel the list boxes are a little bit deplaced at that place under the leader picture. However we could put the parchment onto the background of these listboxes.

-Martin

[Mihai]

Originally posted by The Big Mc
problem is that your idea is bad I say

I give you advanced infantry(+80 ) + gold500(+10) etc(99) etc()

For all you cities :D
That could be fixed by an exponential value of cities. AI should take in consideration "no of cities asked/no total of cities" and "population of cities asked/total population".
So, if you are asking for a small city, the AI could accept to give it to you for a good price. If you are asking for 2 cities that hold half of AI's population, it will agree only if you move them from Ancient Age to Diamond Age:) .

The same can be done with regard - using a parameter.

[Ekmek]

had a few second and thought I'd throw this together..its alittle civ3-ish i know

<img src="http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=2610_diploprop.jpg"></img>

[Protra3211]

That looks good E hope thats going to be in the next playtest

[Ekmek]

sorry, not coded yet, this is just a cut 'n paste to see if we should invest time in doing HMI touch ups (I'll probably look into the code on it but I've taken on a lot of projects lately)

[Mihai]

had a few second and thought I'd throw this together..its alittle civ3-ish i know
I have to say that I found the diplomacy in Civ3 better than in CtP2. At least at the interface.

[sekel]

Originally posted by The Big Mc
child of Thor

problem is that your idea is bad I say

I give you advanced infantry(+80 ) + gold500(+10) etc(99) etc()

For all you cities :D

Too avoid players from taking AI cities easely, the AI should never, ever, sell cities, just like in civ3.

[Ekmek]

Martin are you going to try this with Ctp2?


<img src="http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=2610_diploprop.jpg"></img>



If you are looking to enlarge the diplomat photos I'll volunteer to help. I was looking around the civ3 section and found a lot of user made flags, so I was thinking of using those for the background and then pasting the Ctp2 heads in front of it (since some are repeated) I have made civ3 style leaderheads before so I'm not afraid of trying to make new heads either.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by E
If you are looking to enlarge the diplomat photos I'll volunteer to help. I was looking around the civ3 section and found a lot of user made flags, so I was thinking of using those for the background and then pasting the Ctp2 heads in front of it (since some are repeated) I have made civ3 style leaderheads before so I'm not afraid of trying to make new heads either.

Actual we have those of CTP1 and Harlan did also a lot of them, of course you should take a look on them, so that you can decide whether they are good enough.

And of course add whatever design stuff you like, e.g. flags civ color bar, some cool things like the age dependent weapons stuff we saw in Civ2, and these advances. However the diplomanager should have the dimension of the Great Library.

-Martin

[Martin Gühmann]

By the way E in which format are these Civ3 leader heads?

-Martin

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by sekel


Too avoid players from taking AI cities easely, the AI should never, ever, sell cities, just like in civ3.

no,
there are very good reasons to give away cities:

- the simplest would be sorting your borders, i give you my city which is amidst your borders and you give me yours which is inside mine... of course this should only be done if both parties desire peaceful relations

- often cities at the other end of the world or on isolated islands just suck, you aren't able to defend them well because they are so far away, so why don't trade them (for a high price of course)

- having too many cities for your current government thus forcing you to please all citizens by e.g. high wages thus thwarting your hole empires effectiveness for one stinking rathole

of course there are quit a lot more aspects besides citysize that should be considered in trading:
- strategic position: will it be easy or a pain to defend that city against whoever might lurk in the vicinity? does it act like a canal between oceans? can it be used as a good base for airforces (of course theres a problem, the player will alway have this in mind, the ai shouldn't as long as it has no clue of the fact that there might be something like that)? at least for mods which put much emhasis on goods (like aom) the goods in vicinity should be taken in consideration
- status in empire, is it a good production, science, gold base (or can it become one soon) or just a dull place with nothing but tundras and swamps around it

btw, there is a nice exploit in civ3, because the civ3 ai values even dull towns so high. if you just conquered a city from civ A, though you will never be able to hold it for military reasons as well as those stupid culture thingies and the people's "don't war with our evil tyran feeling) you can sell it to civ B for almost everything they got in goods, money and tech, watch that town convert (or be captured) by civ A in a few turns, conquer it again and at that time there won't be even rebellions because they feel as civAis now.

[Ekmek]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
By the way E in which format are these Civ3 leader heads?

-Martin

Martin they are FLCs but you cant get them in flicster soI view then through JASC PSP 7's animation shop. I then can take a frame and paste it in paint shop pro and edit from there (i think they are 24 bit also, the only part of civ3).

Do you need a flc to look at? (you can probably download a LH in the Civ3 section though)

Also they are quite large, what size are you looking to do the leader heads? I saw Harlans stuff so I'm thinking of taking the flags and pasting the heads in front of them. It will add some color to the diplomacy screen.

Speaking of, if you are thinking of tabling the diplomacy scren like civ3, do you think it will be better to make the player side one color and the AI a different one? maybe soft shades of red and blue or something? Or maybe add a Civ-Colored border a few pixels thick around the AI side because often I forget which civ is which color.

Maybe we should also look into drafting some greetings text as well to make a more human feel. Its a nice touch in Civ3 too.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by E
Martin they are FLCs but you cant get them in flicster soI view then through JASC PSP 7's animation shop. I then can take a frame and paste it in paint shop pro and edit from there (i think they are 24 bit also, the only part of civ3).

Also they are quite large, what size are you looking to do the leader heads? I saw Harlans stuff so I'm thinking of taking the flags and pasting the heads in front of them. It will add some color to the diplomacy screen.

Actual I thought of converting them to avis, so that we can play them. :D Actual I prefer the size of the CTP1 leader images, but if it would be to laborious, we can stick to the Civ3 size. Of course the flags should be placed left and right of the leader. Maybe we can overlay some government ensigns like a star and hammer and sickle for the comunists.

That China is a comunist contry is not secret.

Originally posted by E
Speaking of, if you are thinking of tabling the diplomacy scren like civ3, do you think it will be better to make the player side one color and the AI a different one? maybe soft shades of red and blue or something? Or maybe add a Civ-Colored border a few pixels thick around the AI side because often I forget which civ is which color.

Of course always civ color, civ colors needs to be there always.

Originally posted by E
Maybe we should also look into drafting some greetings text as well to make a more human feel. Its a nice touch in Civ3 too.

Something like: You, the leader of a tiny civilization, dare it, to ask the mighty, powerful, noble Ix-Yies for some pleasure?

:D

At least diplomacy needs some consequences.

Civ1: If you don'T accept our proposal then we declare war on you!
Civ2: WAR! War is good, our mighty troops are blood thirsty, they are eager to crush your tiny little wannabe empire. War so be it!

Threads need consequences.

If you are lucky then you might get this:

Civ1: If you don'T accept our proposal then we declare war on you!
Civ2: You and war? Ha Ha! Dare it and we will crush you!

-Martin

[Ekmek]

Just messing around with HArlan's graphics andciv3 flags. Harlans pics are wider where as Civ3 is taller. I have a slight comprise here with this 5 minute Churchill. I'll find ways for govt icons and era stuff too. I did notice some of Harlans pics like constantne are from historic pictures so I may have to redrw them eventually.

[Martin Gühmann]

The image looks good, but actual I had something differend in my. Actual I wanted to put the flags beside the leader image, so in the middle the image and right and left the flag and on the flag the government symbol.

But we have to do something with the background, CTP1 backgrounds look so steril.

-Martin

[Ekmek]

yeah the plain ctp1 backgrounds is why I put the flag back there, it makes it brighter. It will take me awhile but I can make the flags on poles in the background. But maybe we put the government symbol on colums on the sides of the picture? I'd like to have different government advisors for each government like civ1 but that may take awhile to do.

Also are you thinking of doing different era graphics? I'll have to make some different clothes and weapons too. but for each govt and each era it turns out to be a lot of graphics per leaderhead.

[Maquiladora]

I wouldnt bother with different era leaders, it didnt work too well in civ3 because thats not how the leader commonly looks, so its probably not worth the effort for the very little (if any) atmosphere you get from it.

IMO it should give the impression of a diplomatic meeting place in the background, depending on civ of course, flags on poles, paintings/windows/things on walls, or is that too much work :D

[Martin Gühmann]

Actual I tought of the flags as seperate images, and also the government symbols as seperate overlays. And by the what about female leader images. You have a female leader and the image doesn't match. That was already a problem in Civ2.

-Martin

[Ekmek]

well messing with the dipwizard.ldl I've gotten this far

<img src=http://apolyton.net/upload/thumb.php?x=800&file=2610_newdiplo.jpg> (http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=2610_newdiplo.jpg)


Of course I still have soem tweaking until its functional again and then make the leaderheads but I guess so far so good.

[Protra3211]

The Power of E! The CtP2 fans should be checking in again as winter time has us spending more time indoors(at the coumputor) so feedback will be coming in on your work -the builds,units, and tile work along with new game features.
Like your tile work this feature update adds spice to the game.

[Ekmek]

Alright, I really dove into dipwizard.ldl and I have a working interface. Attached is the ldl file for those that want to check it out, but it only uses the small pictures. However, this is just the first draft I have this left to do:

1) Making the window bigger to allow for bigger leaderheadsand dress up the sizes

2) Create ALL the leaderheads. Mostly they will be civ3 knockoffs until I get around to more original stuff







[files deleted - 2-3-2006]

[Protra3211]

Thank you E .I downloded the file and placed it in by hand and kept the old one just case. Worked fine .Nice setup that should leave plenty of room for every thing to be seen. Maybe Stan might add it to AOM 3.

[Ekmek]

Thanks Protra. Once I get the next version out I was thinking about approaching Stan about it. Thanks for the support and for being one of the few that still hits these forums!

[Pave]

Impressing! :b:

One thing that I would like is more detailed responses. That was one of the major let downs I faced while comparing CtP1 and CtP2. A plain "they rejected" message is lot less informative than "they rejected, and look forward to spilling your insolent blood". I think there's some leftovers from CtP1 in dip_str.txt.

[Ekmek]

thanks Pave,
Yeah I want a more personal interface too, but also make it more negotiating but asking more and offering more.

We could use people to help with the strings....

[Ekmek]

Just an update I finished the leaderhead conversion to TGAs. I'm taking stuff from Civ3 and Civ4. I have 124 images now and could get 64 more (from Conquests which I havent converted yet).

The file maybe big though so I might have to host it at civfanatics since I'm running out of space here.

Before I post it, are there any requests? Especially for some Civ3Conquests graphics which I havent converted yet.

thanks.

[Ekmek]

Here's the latest but dont get too attached to the gold stuff I havent figured out how to replace all the gray stuff yet

edit here is the finished file:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=2610_E-Diplomod.zip

[Ekmek]

and a response one

here's the finished file:
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=2610_E-Diplomod.zip

[Ekmek]

Its done. Give it a whirl.



02-05-2006

E's Diplomod - Graphics only

This mod changes the Dipwizrad.ldl to be larger and use larger unique leaderheads. The graphics are primarily from Civ3 and Civ4 which I credit Firaxis.

Please report comments at Apolyton:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103143&pagenumber=2

Known issues:

No bugs but some civs are using repeated graphics even though a diplo photo is defined in the civ_str.txt. I have not updaed it because of AoM and the playtest. Feel free to update the diplo photo entry in civilisation.txt if your favorite civ uses the wrong graphic.


Poland replaced Jamaica?
Indus/Harrapan
Hatti/Hittite
China/Shang
Argentina
Mali
Eturia/Etruscans


edit: I left out one file...now updated

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=2610_E-Diplomod.zip

[Ekmek]

I will have a new graphic diplomod coming out. fixing the files so you'll actually see female pictures when you are facing female players.


but going through the code and looking at diplomacy.txt I see that regard costs are static. So every Ai gets the same regard impact for every event? Is that right?

I'm thinking about using the already regard cost, then adding it to a personality modifier and also adding a random number for Regard effects.

Playing last night. I see the smilies don't tell you that much and mainly the AI is just mad at you. I may need help but isn't it possible to display your current regard score (like under the smilies or something?)

I know this I'll be the one doing the coding :D but Martin do you have any tips on this?

[Ekmek]

Martin,

I was taking a look at the diplomacy interface (again) and identified these issues:


DIPWIZARD
ADD TONE TO NEGOTIATION BOX
ADD TREATIES TO REQUEST/OFFER
ALLOW DROP DOWN FOR DIPLOMACY INFO LIKE DETAILS BUTTON
CREATE SEPARATE BOXES FOR REQUESTS/OFFERS
ADD REJECT/APPROVE TO COMMENTS
ALLOW FOR MULTIPLE REQUESTS AND OFFERS (TRADE TABLE)


I guess the order isn't necessary but the multiple requests and AI handling will be the hardest part.

but first I was looking at howt o make two separate boxes instead of tabs for requests and offers. am I looking inthe right place?


void DipWizard::FillProposalLists()

...some code...

if(rec->GetCategoryRequest()) {
propList = m_propList[DIP_WIZ_PROP_TAB_REQUEST];
exchList = m_exchList[DIP_WIZ_PROP_TAB_REQUEST];
}

if(rec->GetCategoryGift()) {
propList = m_propList[DIP_WIZ_PROP_TAB_OFFER];
exchList = m_exchList[DIP_WIZ_PROP_TAB_OFFER];
}

if(rec->GetCategoryTreaty()) {
propList = m_propList[DIP_WIZ_PROP_TAB_TREATY];
exchList = m_exchList[DIP_WIZ_PROP_TAB_TREATY];
}

...some code...


It looks like it but will the game handle it?

[Ekmek]

I've been getting into interface code. 3 screenies follow


1st a basic ldl change increasing the size of the science window

[Ekmek]

bigger diplomacy start window so you see more civs

[Ekmek]

this is an actual in game screenshot of my new dipwizard. but not functional yet because the restaging has to be worked out. I'd still like to find a way to make the background transparent though so it doesn't block the game.

this may take awhile unless Martin and Fromafar help with the hide stuff and changing tabs to list boxes (like the city editqueue so i can multiple proposals)

[HuangShang]

Bigger is nice, but the diplomacy looks like it requires 1024 for height, which on a small-medium wide screen laptop, would make everything very small.

BTW did you change the science manager? It needs to scroll sideways... or is there a way to change the width of the columns (in game or not)?

[Ekmek]

See previous page for latest samples!

ITs around 800 and I did it on a laptop so its fine.

Didn't think about the side scroll so I can do that too, not too hard.

[Ekmek]

Martin
I found this in debugwindow.cpp


DebugWindow::DebugWindow(
AUI_ERRCODE *retval,
uint32 id,
MBCHAR *ldlBlock,
sint32 bpp,
AUI_WINDOW_TYPE type )
:
C3Window(retval, id, ldlBlock, bpp, type)
{
m_allow_next = FALSE;
m_debug_mask = 0xFFFFFFFF;
*retval = InitCommon();
Assert( AUI_SUCCESS(*retval) );
if ( !AUI_SUCCESS(*retval) ) return;


}


I *think* this is how to makea transparent background. But I dont see an ldl for debugwindow.

I tried the usual suspects like controlpanel.ldl and civ3.ldl but no luck. is there somethingI'm missing? Is there a way to call this mask in an ldl? I dont see a c3window.ldl

[Ekmek]

well i couldn't figure out the mask issue. but i then went to see how icons with a pink background are transparent on on a window. this is done by using string imagebltflag "chromakey"

however, i set the background to have that flag and i created a new background tga of the same pink color of 248,0,248 at 16bit uncompressed and now the whole background is pink. theoretically it should be making the background transparent.

I'm guessing that somewhere the code is missing the chromakey for backgrounds? not sure. hell noteven sure where to look for that.



second issue tabs to list box. I really don't think this should be hard but i havent had the time to do it. i think it will involver redoing dipwizrad.cpp though since al the tab functionality is there.

having two tab groups (left and right of the parchment) has disabled the two step proposal process. something about hiding the first proposal in order to fill the second.

Once i figure out listboxes I think its possible to ake the proposals similar to editqueue.ldl/cpp which is how you do build lists for cities and then send it. But this will change diplomacy (probably for the better) meaning we have to redo how the ai accepts, rejects and proposees diplomacy.

I think the calc is easy just create a value for everything I think basing it off of 1 gold then have regard and personality as modifiers is doable, but a whole 'nother project.

[Ekmek]

next phase in the saga. ok I realized the dial thing where the year/turn counter is is round and most images are square so I figured it had to have a transparent background i found the file in the zfs its upfg01.rim(tga in the ldl) I found it in controlpanel.ldl and it had this:


ControlPanel:CTP2_STATIC_BACKGROUND {
# Location.
int xpix 0
int ypix 0
int widthpix 601
int heightpix 184

# Image layout.
int numberoflayers 1
int imagesperlayer 3

# Background
bool layeralways0 true
int xpix00 0
int ypix00 0
string image00 "upfg01.tga"
int xpix01 542
int ypix01 31
string image01 "upfg03.tga"
int xpix02 189
int ypix02 162
string image02 "upfg04.tga"


I think this does it bool layeralways0 true

I think the layer is always transparent which is 0 provided there is no 'pattern' haven't found a way around the patterns now though. ecluding the patern and making dipwizards background a static background makes it all black

the other issue might be the difference how ctp2_window and ctp_dialog_window are handled.

[Ekmek]

Well I found that controlpanelwindow.cpp is the source for the controlpanel and it had a line:

ControlPanelWindow::ControlPanelWindow (

...some code...

m_mainWindow->SetTransparent(TRUE)



So I thought I was done but when I added:

DipWizard::DipWizard(AUI_ERRCODE *err)
[i]...some code...
m_window->SetTransparent(TRUE)



but it crashed. next I tried (IAW how the window was set up and because this spot initialized it)


AUI_ERRCODE Dipwizard::Display()

s_dipWizard->m_window->SetTransparent(TRUE)



it crashed too. I think I found it but not sure this is the only line I need or how to find the next line needed. I'm pretty sure I put in the right functions but that could be my prob too.

Anyways any help would be appreciated!

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by E
I *think* this is how to makea transparent background. But I dont see an ldl for debugwindow.

I don't think that that code does anything, we don't even have a debug window in the game and I doubt that a debug window is designed to look nice. So probably it is a standart design CTP1 like looking window if you can activate it.

Well and to find out the source of the crash you should use the debug version, E. In this case you don't need to run your mod. ;)

And by the way when you post some pieces of code next time which contains some character combinations that the forum converts into smilies you you should disable smilies in that post.

-Martin

[Ekmek]

i had a crazy thought the other day. Shouldn't the trade manager be accessible through the diplomanager. The player really shouldn't be doing foreign trade without talking to the people first.

i figure maybe adding something like a trade popup (like offer gold) but only sorts on the cities that the civ you are talking with shows up. of course we'd have to link that to the negotaiation options etc.

[HuangShang]

well trade is not always completely government regulated

[Ekmek]

I uploaded my new Graphic Diplomod

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=2610_E-Diplomod-2007-02-06.rar

I added files for French and German
and every leader (male and female) is Unique

[Ekmek]

This is what the AE diplomanager looks like now

[Maquiladora]

What is happening with the diplomacy manager/proposal windows? I just realised now both windows are too tall for 800*600 resolution, and it should be at most as tall as the great library window. I didn't want to go and change it though without asking first.

And what is happening with the large flags on the proposal window? I read in a previous revision Martin added the emissary photo's back in, but now we have the large flag? I think this flag looks out of place, especially with the messagebox window border around it.

[Ekmek]

the big window was my (pathetic) attempt at trying to conver the diplomanager to look closer to the diplomacy windows in Civ3 & 4 which are really good.

[Maquiladora]

I really liked the negotiation table version above. It just needs to be less tall, and obviously remove the buttons that don't work yet.

[Maquiladora]

I fixed the height of the diplo manager and diplo proposal windows to fit on 800*600 again, and fixed up the left and right borders originally designed by E. Although I added the nipple dude on the right back in. :D Also redesigned the proposal window and widened it, for the beginnings of a bargaining table layout.

There is a small problem that might become annoying in future. The top (and bottom but you can't see it) of the parchments have a black horizontal line, this was because the old proposal window was so small, the parchment would touch the top and bottom edges of the window. If you don't use a diplomat/leader photo long enough, it will show the line above the parchment. This is also why I have the parchment touching the bottom panel - to hide the bottom line, as was done on the original proposal window.

[Ekmek]

great strat! Good luck..this was tedious IIRC

[Maquiladora]

Yeah, I found it pretty tedious at first, but now I do it all in photoshop beforehand, so I don't have to keep going into the game to test it. :D

I think before we (or just I) start thinking about how the leader should look (and what format and size it should be), we should finalise how the rest of the window will look. This way we won't have to resize 140 leaders when it's finished.

The general idea seems to be for a bargaining table. So you have two sides, you on the left, your opponent on the right, and in the (bottom) middle the "table".

This table is split in two vertically, and on each side the elements of the deal are added.

On the left side of the window all the possible elements you can offer (map, gold, reduce pollution etc), and on the right side all the possible elements you can request from your opponent (again map, gold etc), most probably the same as everything you can offer. The treaties (cease fire, military pact etc) should be in a separate area at the bottom of each side.

When you add an offer, you click on an element on the left (listbox or whatever) and it's only added to your left side of the table.

To add a request you click on your opponent's side on the right, and then it's added to their right side of the table.

Adding an offer or request will remove it from the side it was clicked, so you can't offer or request the same thing twice.

When you add a treaty (either by clicking your left or opponents right side, on the treaty name), the same treaty is removed from the other side and added to both sides of the table.

Then you click "send". If the proposal is accepted you get a nice message. If the proposal is refused, you get a less nice message, and perhaps a hint at how far it was from being accepted. Finally if your offer is close to being reasonable for the AI, you might get a counter-proposal.

For the moment I'm not concerned with how the underlying formula works, but I'll just try to get it set up like above.

[EPW]

Sounds like civ4 :b:

[Maquiladora]

Is there a reason why the text in some list boxes is not bold anymore, as it was in the original game?

I find this text quite hard to read sometimes, especially when it's over a detailed parchment on the diplomacy window. For the moment I made it bold again only in the diplomacy proposal window, and also italic to look like handwriting on the parchment. But there are other listboxes that still have thin text, and I'd like to revert these back to bold again if it's just a style change.

[Ekmek]

I'm not sure on the bold thing. I never messed with it. I always found the font too small.

As for resizing leaders - PSp 9.0 has a batch process so it wouldn't be too hard to resize.

[Protra3211]

Nice feature!Hope its added to the next playtest.The diplo picture is clear and I like the added color to give contrast.

[Maquiladora]

Nice feature!Hope its added to the next playtest.The diplo picture is clear and I like the added color to give contrast.

If you mean the bright green, that's just to show how big the diplomat/leader picture can be. I won't be changing any of those pictures until diplomacy itself is finished.

[Maquiladora]

Right now we're at the stage where the actual diplomacy workings need to be changed, that is we can't really make anymore interface changes without the diplomacy working the same way underneath.

At the moment diplomacy works like this:

There are 5 stages:

0) set tone
1) proposal (request, offer, suggest treaty)
2) exchange (request, offer, suggest treaty)
3) response (accept, reject, counter, threaten)
4) threaten

Since only single item requests, offers or exchanges can be made, a first step might be to allow more items added in the proposal and exchange stages. I have no idea how all this works yet though so I'll have to check. Unless someone has a better idea?

[Ekmek]

I didnt get into that code - but to some degree the interface forces certain things into specific boxes. i tried to remove that with no luck. but i was terrible at interface changes

[Maquiladora]

I didnt get into that code - but to some degree the interface forces certain things into specific boxes. i tried to remove that with no luck. but i was terrible at interface changes

I was thinking of using list boxes to hold each item that can be traded in a proposal/exchange, and you click an item it adds it to the table. There is an example of such a list box in the scenario editor when you give an advance, and maybe other examples. Anyway getting the system in place looks like it will be the (relatively) easy part.

The hard part will be getting the AI to understand and use it. I don't think I can do that part.

Anyway for now I'm concentrating on doing more easy things. :D