DESIGN: New CTP2 Game Manual

[child of Thor]

Ok i've been looking over the current one and obviously its fairly redundant because of the changes that have been made to the game so far.

This project is one of the later parts i guess that will be done, but i got a few ideas for a bit of feed back and discussion.

I guess the first thing i should add is dont worry - any work i will do toward the final draft will be spell checked
:D

One of the main problems that CTP2(and 1?) had was complaints from people who had played Civ(1/2) and the common cry was 'but why does it do this? in Civ i could do that!' etc.. many people were shocked to find that this wasn't actually just a prettier version of Civ2.

So what i'm thinking is maybe we could have a step-by-step tutorial section that aims to lead a complete novice by the hand through the game's various sections. As there is no real in game tutorial(not detailed anyway) we could atleast help with any Civ(1/2/3) players confusion.

I've been revisiting 'Star Wars Supremacy'(UK titlte) recently, its that old strategy starwars game that got a bad press due to its fairly inept AI(sound familular).
Well it had one good point - a decent in manual tutorial that made this otherwise very confusing game, a bit easier to understand.

So this is my first main thought to adding something new, that hopefully will help new players get to grips quicker with the game - and maybe explain somewhere that although CTP2 looks like Civ - its actually quite a different beast?

[Gilgamensch]

Last edited????????? Already starting with the spell checker?

But, for certain things you are completly right. It took me quit some time to get used to NOT assign workers :blush:

But, a tutorial: We would need to have also a 'scenario' or similar to run with it.........not sure if this is possible..........

[centrifuge]

Originally posted by child of Thor

So what i'm thinking is maybe we could have a step-by-step tutorial section that aims to lead a complete novice by the hand through the game's various sections. As there is no real in game tutorial(not detailed anyway) we could atleast help with any Civ(1/2/3) players confusion.


Good idea,

IIRC CTP1 had a pretty good tutorial, but there were some parts missing that left the player searching for answers, Such as PW, terraforming, etc.



Disclaimer: This has been forever ago and I'm just going by memory, so I make no guaruntees about how accurate my info is :D

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Gilgamensch
edity edit :)............
But, a tutorial: We would need to have also a 'scenario' or similar to run with it.........not sure if this is possible..........

Well the Starwars game i mentioned did it with out any specific in game scenario, you just played a normal game and it went through various things(build lists/unit movements/combat etc) - i think we could do it in CTP2 as well, just to teach how best to use the UI etc?

Then once the details of the final release are known you would go into specific details and values for all the games content.

[Solver]

Actually, we may even want two tutorials. One for the novices, and another for Civ 2/3 people. Let's face it, those who played Civ 3, don't need to be introduced to the concept of cities, city improvements, research, etc. That tutorial should concentrate on the differences between classic Civ and CTP, such as PW, unconventional warfare, combat system, etc.

[child of Thor]

Yep i like that idea - we can have a chapter specificaly for Civ players - 'So you've played a lot of Civ?' ;)

It would concentrate more on the differences between the two titles and explain why/how CTP2 does such and such.......alot of the fundamentals are more or less the same, just executed in a different way in CTP2.

Thanks guys:b:

[Immortal Wombat]

Since most of the SLICers are also C++ing, I'm happy to try SLICing any additions to the tutorial that need doing and can get done before Christmas.

[child of Thor]

:scared: ........before xmas?

im not going to get into the meat of the game documentation untill i see how the new game works.......so i gota wait for everyone to finish their compiling and for the release(atleast imminent) of the main code once we've all agreed apon what it will include(as in bug fixes and additions). Then we will need much playtesting to see how its going and from that i hope to get the main additions for the new game manual..............so unless we are ready to play test the debugged code this week - you got plenty of time IW ;)
(and i hope i have too :( )

EDIT: :lol: Thanks for giving me a dead line pressure feeling ;) But if you want to SLIC then please go ahead dont mind me :D

Xmas is only 38days away :eek:

[Immortal Wombat]

... or after May if that'd be easier ;)

Ah ok. I was thinking you could start on a replacement manual any time, since the existing one is fairly useless. I imagine the first few releases won't have any significant changes, and I don't think any 'standard' releases should have changes that require major manual rewrites.

[child of Thor]

yes your right about starting now(which i am in a very loose sense), but i was looking down the final furlong for the main bit of work - and you just cut 6months(?) into 38days, it was alarming;)

[Martin Gühmann]

There is also a CTP2 tutorial, it is fully sliced, unfortunatly it is not quite finished. So I prefer a slic tutorial version that can describe all the little features or all the different features of CTP2 in comparision to Civ2/3. One thing I miss is a button on the new game screen that allows me to enable the tutorial and also to select the tutorial level: Beginner and Civ2/3 player.

-Martin

[J Bytheway]

It probably doesn't need a fully fledged tutorial, but some notes for players of CTP1 would be good too.

[child of Thor]

Well any in game tutorials i'll place outside my responsibility for now. I'm thinking of what format an online manual should be in? Just as a word document(small size quick to download) or maybe go for a nicer looking PDF type thing(once i've learnt how to do that;) ), but much bigger download?

[centrifuge]

Go with PDF, they are easy to make, simply consists of choosing "Save File as" :)

[J Bytheway]

At the risk of sounding like a geek, I'll suggest you consider (La)TeX - then you can easily make versions in pdf, ps, HTML or even plain text.

[Gilgamensch]

Also PDF isn't distributing viruses :D

[J Bytheway]

IIRC there are viruses that spread over pdf, but they can only infect yu if you use the editor in some fashion. I don't know the details, though. Regardless, I agree that PDF is much better than word in this regard.

[Gilgamensch]

Or as you mentioned plain text, but definitly no word ;) it is from SM......aehm I mean MS..........

[child of Thor]

ok PDF it is, although it would only take me a few seconds to copy/paste a plain text version as well, if people on low bandwidth connections need an easier download:)

[Maquiladora]

HTML :doitnow!:

I dispise PDF manuals, theyre sloooow :madban:

[child of Thor]

My thoughts too:)
So there will be an easy(wordpad type) plain text version to download too.

[J Bytheway]

Some people (so I have heard) actually like to print these things out... PDF would certainly be good for them. As I said, TeX gives you PDF and HTML, so that would please Maquiladora.

[Solver]

I also hate PDF. It loads up slower than HTML or anything else, and the Acrobat Reader is often a pain to use.

Give me HTML... TeX... RTF... something else :).

[child of Thor]

J Bytheway, is the Tex thing a free download from somewhere? - so i can have a play with it. oh feel free to point me in its direction please :)

[Aias]

I'd be willing to help out on the manual. Count me in for the chapter "How To Get Killed In Multiplayer." :lol:

Seriouly, whoever is in charge of the manual contact me.

[Peter Triggs]

Child of Thor,

I used to use LaTeX (the successor to TeX). It's the only way to typeset mathematical formulae. IMO, it's not all that user friendly but may be fine for straightforward text. Here's some links:

http://www.latex-project.org/

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dwilkins/LaTeXPrimer/

[Gilgamensch]

One thing we have to keep in mind, that everyone shall be able to read it. And sorry to say, 'everyone' has the possibility to read pdf or simple rtf/txt-files. The only problem with rtf is, that we might have problems including pictures/diagrams. PDF you can.......

[J Bytheway]

Everything you ever need for or about (La)TeX is at http://www.ctan.org/

Of course, that doesn't mean it's easy to find what you want...

[Gilgamensch]

Jesus..........just had a look..........

you have some short introduction :D .........

One reason why I prefer PDF :D

Plus I have adobe exchange at work :D

[Locutus]

Well, you want the files to be readable on all platforms: Linux, Windows, Mac, etc. That rules out pretty much everthing but PDF, HTML and TXT. You'll also want to be able to add screenshots, diagrams, etc. That rules out TXT (plus, those stupid end-of-line characters are different on every OS, which some crappy editors (e.g. Notepad) have a problem with). Some people will prefer HTML, some PDF. PDF is generally speaking the superior format (especially for printing), but HTML certainly has it's advantages as well (faster, allows linking, can be viewed online). LaTeX would be the perfect solution, though as Peter points out, it's not very user-friendly.

[Gilgamensch]

Locutus, sorry to correct you, but even in PDF, you can include hyperlinks to webpages..........

[Locutus]

To webpages (which works crappy, BTW), but AFAIK not to other parts of the same document. Or maybe you can, but it's still slow as arse, and can't be viewed online.

[Locutus]

PS Anyone interested in helping out with the manual/tutorial(s), please sign up here (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101023) :cute:

[Solver]

I *think* that you can link to other parts of document in PDF... probably... but it indeed is slow!

Come on, what are the advatnages of PDF over HTML, after all?

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Solver
Come on, what are the advatnages of PDF over HTML, after all?

An HRML document is actal not one file it is a bunch of files if you have a lot of graphics in, so for online view via the internet it is ok, but if I wan't to save it local then I have to make shure that I catch everything and make shure everything is at the right place, for a *.pdf file I just need to download it and no other problems.

-Martin

[Tamerlin]

The best would be an HTML file and a PDF file. Once you the HTML file is ready, it is very easy to translate it into PDF which is more... "printer friendly". :D

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Solver
Come on, what are the advatnages of PDF over HTML, after all?

1. Easy to create using existing page layout tools (without leading to crappy not-allround-compatible code)
2. Actually lends itself for printing. Displays and prints similarly.
3. Supports complex layout controls.
4. Packages publications in a single file.
5. Better suited to managing large documents.
...

Need I go on?

Anyway, I think LaTeX is the way to go. Why choose if you can have both?

[Immortal Wombat]

I've often pondered that there should be a file type somewhat like a .jar file, the java archive thing, but with HTML. Stick the html files in a zip file, you go to open it, and the index.html displays in your browser. One file, lots of pages. Easy.

[Maquiladora]

If its in a exe archive within the patch itself it can extract into the ctp2 under its own "manual" folder directory when the patch extracts too, then just make a shortcut to the index.html with the patch exe.

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
I've often pondered that there should be a file type somewhat like a .jar file, the java archive thing, but with HTML. Stick the html files in a zip file, you go to open it, and the index.html displays in your browser. One file, lots of pages. Easy.

Isn't a chtml file something like that?..

[Gilgamensch]

Originally posted by Locutus

Anyway, I think LaTeX is the way to go. Why choose if you can have both?

As I said, I had a look into it, but it seems rather complex. Also (what I wasn't able to find), is it free? Do you need anything as the reader to download?

I would still rather go for PDF :D

[The Big Mc]

LaTeX is available for free

Follow one of the hyper links of page one it will get you there also apparently according to others in the thread you can save a pdf so all you need as a end-user is acrobat :D

i posted it here for you so you don't have to go back:D

http://www.latex-project.org/

[Gilgamensch]

Jusr reading through some so called introductions..........

seems rather complex to me, espacially for backslash (\):

$\backslash$ command instead. It produces a \.

Jesus......all this just for a simple \

[Locutus]

That's because the backslash is normally never used, only for special characters and stuff. The only place where it *is* used is in Windows paths, which once again proves how crappy MS is in its non-compliance to standards...

[J Bytheway]

You can define your own abbreviation if backslashes appear often (like "\bs", for example) - that's one of the great powers of TeX. It's really not as compicated as it first apppears. Once you've written something with it, it all seems pretty obvious. For the purposes of this manual, it would be little different from writing everything out in plain text, with a few commands here and there for inserting figures, or making text italic, etc.

[Gilgamensch]

Still haven't finished, but Yes you might be right, maybe only the first time is difficult.

The only thing, is it still easy to convert to pdf including graphics?

(haven't started on graphics yet..........)

[child of Thor]

Thanks for the links Peter,J bytheway and The Big Mc :)

I've been going ahead with some stuff in a format i'm comfortable with - it can later be hacked up and converted into the final format of choice(i'll keep it txt for now). As i mentioned before - i think the main work may come later, when we can see what the release version of the new game will exactly be like, and its been play tested and commented upon.

[The Big Mc]

Originally posted by child of Thor
The Big Mc

I pinched it of page 1 of this very thread :D

[child of Thor]

:D well i wasn't going to say anything if you didn't ;)

nice steal by the way:cool:

So can anyone see any problems if i just go ahead with a simple text restructure, i'll probably use wordpad or maybe word. Will it be easy to paste any text into later PDF/HTML standard(i would guess so)?

[Maquiladora]

As long as its in txt format and in clear easy to read manner, someone can copy/paste into html page and dot some pictures around it, make it look special :D

[Gilgamensch]

for HTML, PDF and even this fancy Latex (makes me think of something else :naughty: ) txt is fin for the moment.

[The Big Mc]

now now:D

[Solver]

When a Linux guru friend introduced me to Latex two years ago... I was thinking along the same lines as Gilg ;).

[Locutus]

There's a big difference between Latex an LaTeX :) It's not even pronounced the same way...

[Solver]

Certainly not by geeks like you :p.

[Mirimunchkin]

child of Thor
Hi
I'm kinda 'new kid on the block' so I thought I'd better introduce myself.
Although I've 20+ yrs IT experience it's all mainframe stuff (CICS, COBOL, TSO, that sort of thing) so, while I can more or less understand the coding mails, I can't really give any help with the modding.
BUT, I'm now a freelance copy-editor/proofreader so, if you ever need help with anything to do with the Manual/Tutorial(s?) drop me a line.

For what it's worth, way back in the 20th century I designed 6 military simulation boardgames which were commercially marketed. So I do have rules-writing experience, and some knowledge of game theory.
I've also just acquired ReadIris Pro 9 software, which is supposed to be able to convert most file formats into most other file formats,
Hope I can help.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Mirimunchkin
child of Thor
Hi
I'm kinda 'new kid on the block' so I thought I'd better introduce myself.
Although I've 20+ yrs IT experience it's all mainframe stuff (CICS, COBOL, TSO, that sort of thing) so, while I can more or less understand the coding mails, I can't really give any help with the modding.
BUT, I'm now a freelance copy-editor/proofreader so, if you ever need help with anything to do with the Manual/Tutorial(s?) drop me a line.

For what it's worth, way back in the 20th century I designed 6 military simulation boardgames which were commercially marketed. So I do have rules-writing experience, and some knowledge of game theory.
I've also just acquired ReadIris Pro 9 software, which is supposed to be able to convert most file formats into most other file formats,
Hope I can help.

Hey Mirimunchkin :)

Yeah thanks for the offer, and when i've done my bit and others have done theirs, we may well call upon your skills to polish everything up :D

Oh and welcome to the CTP2 section :b:

[dont worry. things move slowly around here, so you wont get swamped with cries for help......at least not from me :) ]

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by Locutus
To webpages (which works crappy, BTW), but AFAIK not to other parts of the same document. Or maybe you can, but it's still slow as arse, and can't be viewed online.

For the record, it is certainly possible to have in-document links in PDF - if using LaTeX, the hyperref package will make all cross-references you supply into links automatically.

[HuangShang]

uh, im posting here cuz this one has more new (and old) posts, but i hope we can keep this discussion to one thread... http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=124347

also, this is like the only thing i can do around here so i'll be happy to help :)