1. synchronization in multiplayer.. (getting non units and disbanding units after they have been bribed etc)

2. population limits (how did they ever miss that?) city number limits, units, powergraph limits.

3. investigating a city and looking at the other players maps etc.

This will NOT be some whining session. It will be a "public beta" for anybody willing to join in on the spirit of making the game better while we have a chance.

The problem I see is, that many of those Cheats that were reported to me while I was doing my Cheats section, took OVER A YEAR TO FIND!
We need to really analyize and break down the game when it comes out. And even so, some still won't be found. The earlier they can be found the better. We can never expect a company to support a game that is old and no longer worth any profit them. But they will support it when it is still new and generating revenue (unless it's Activision )

Normally, you just find bugs/cheats in the normal course of play. Yes, a few like Xin Yu experiment just out of normal curiosity... but it does take time to come across them.

We MUST make a concerted effort to tear Civ III apart when it comes out.
Normal play isn't the answer. Yes, we will need to take some time becoming familiar with it... but after that, we all need to play Sherlock Holmes and experiment like crazy on it.

So I agree with Yin 100% on the need to organize an effort to deal with this BEFORE the game is released so we can hit the deck running.

quote: Originally posted by supremus on 03-08-2001 03:40 PM This kind of behavior is exactly what the companie's developer wait from the gamers. That's the less expensive way to make patches and keep customers happy. Launch unfinished products in the market place, wait some weeks for the fanatics gamers to find out bugs and then making patches. That's the way thigs are and they only will change when game buyers start to be as demanding as more mature markets buyers.

I disagree strongly. As someone who writes software for a living, I can attest that even the best designed and tested software will exhibit bugs when it reaches end users. It's impossible to test every possible combination of inputs to a complex program. None of the items on the Civ2 bug list is a game-breaker (obviously, since it's still being played 5 years later), and some might be considered design decisions rather than bugs.

I'd agree with Ming and Yin that there will probably be a narrow window of opportunity where Firaxis will make patches in response to (politely worded) lists of bugs and "misfeatures". The wider this window, the better the end product will be. But it's an economic decision for Firaxis: how many programmer hours do they spend improving the game from salable to perfect? We at Apolyton hope the answer is "a lot", but the guys in the green eyeshades are going to want to see some return on that investment of time and money. Do they get $100,000 in sales if the Apolyton team is made completely happy? I doubt it...

I generally agree with you. If Civ3 really has some show-stopping bugs, we take it back to the stores. But we know it won't. But what it WILL have are the kinds of "little" (and a few not so little) issues that Firaxis testing didn't discover, etc. Now, as gamers we have a choice: Slowly uncover these things or deliberately seek them out know that our window of opportunity is just 3 or 4 months unless there's plans for an x-pack, but I'd like to not have to BUY a patch, ya know.

I'm talking about the Civ fanatics who don't want to have to resort to script hacks to try to finish the patch process on their own. Mind you, many people thought SMAC was just fine. Read the comments on the poll. But the hardcore people saw it a "disaster." So this will be a "harcore" fan's project.

Ming:

Reported by: Sieve Too (email, ICQ)
Verified by:
Version: all
Priority: 3
Summary:
Airbases [behave like] city squares, i.e. the square on which a city is built. For both: units destroyed one at a time but no defensive bonus. automatically irrigated. automatically turned to farmland when Supermarket is built. automatically get road/railroad effects (movement, trade, shields). refuel your air units - but only if you "own" it. can't build a Fortress on either type.

Who seeks and seeks and when finally finds it, curses out loud?
Old answer: The fisherman who is patching his nets
New: .... (You know )

I too would volunteer to help. A pre-release copy to a designated team would seem to benefit all and be a no-brain decision. But having been in management as long as I have.......................

Looks pretty good. Let's go with it.

Jeje:

VERY nicely chosen quote.

Rah:

" WE NEED TO PUT THE INGREDIENTS IN THE POT WHILE THE STOVE IS STILL HOT! "

Anyway, count me in if we could get a beta and some kind of link to Firaxis to report bugs early on.

Living outside USA, silly as it seems my trouble is to have available only translated version of software (i.e. italian version).
Don't get me wrong, is nice to have a game in my language, but usually it become a nightmare every time a patch is needed (and we all know is needed, soon or later, often more than one...).

I was lucky with SMAC, because I found and bought USA version, but every time Firaxis released a SMAC patch, the owner of italian versions had to wait about a month before the related patch become available.

That's very bad, because the game life span is limited (CIV 2 hard core players not counted here ), and features like multiplay often doesn't works if games have different "engine release".

That's silly, because game code must (but sadly don't) be separated from user interface and messages text.

I know that when new features are included their related text must be translated, but I think that the effort will be greatly reduced (and I can live with some english word here and there, while waiting for proper version available).

Text "embedded" with game variables in another added complexity (and I remember Firaxis mentioned it about SMAC), but I worked in software development and I can assure it can be solved, at least I did it myself.

I hope Firaxis is developing code keeping it separated from text, so they will be able to release a single patch working for every country.

Now, in a dreaming world...
As an added bonus, a "do it yourself" translation tool could be available to let player self correct minor translation glitch (but editable text file will be OK, if praticable).

If Firaxis worry to give this control right to customers (e.g. it raise trouble with local software distributors), it can publish a web page tool where every player can suggest fast translation of terms added by patches and new features. After a week of fans input they can compile and build translated patch, almost simultaneous to USA version.

Firaxis is one of the FEW companies that left that i would consider doing a Beta Test for.

(and they are one of the few companies i would buy a new game from on Day one.(the other would be the crew that actualy does fallout 3, i have yet to install my copy of the game for my machine, my roomi has one, and Lord do i hate it when he plays! (he invaribaly crashes! folowed by a LOT of swearing!) (i get to play it this weekend from the look of things!))

Overall, from the sound of things they have been working tward launch from the end of AC, Even with the problems that Firaxis has gone through, you can hardly call this a rush job!(in fact i suspect that even if they did abruptly rush this, they would still have one hell of a game.

From what ive seen of Variouse Screenshots, the game looks like its in an advances state of development(or, more acuratly, what would be an Advanced state of development for a non-Sid Game! LOL), i saw few items that you would call placeholder art, and while i suspect that some of the art will change,( and pray that others WILL change, nothing personal Jeff Briggs!! (JUST KIDDING)) they have only shown art for about 29 units so far(not counting the Mig and F-15)

Ps Incidently, does anyone know how many units the game will have? i find it odd that they show both a Mig and a F-15on theirwebpage, and mention elsewhere(the CGW Artical) an F-16 unit!)

GROUP 1: Find bugs
GROUP 2: Reproduce those bugs with saves

Of course, Group 1 should try to have a save anyway. And Group 2 will most likely uncover bugs, too. Buy my thinking here is that the people really good at finding bugs should not worry so much about testing it over and over and over. Not only that, even if the bug is found on ONE machine, we'd need confirmation anyway.

Neverthless, why someone of you, with "mailing history" with Firaxis more estabilished than mine, don't try to ask them how they'll like more to have bug hunted and reported?

I suppose it will be better to report bugs in a format (info and classification) they can process faster, and I suppose will be better to use a different method than they already use during internal beta test.

If some bugs (not system configuration things ) evade a test method, it can be catch by a different "net".

Civ3: Are you worried about bugs in civ3?

No, I am not. But I am worried, that the bugs may not be solved, that no or only one patch may be released. And that some vital features (MP/PBEM) may be offered at the alter of making money.