Also:
*Cropping and enlarging -- Sometimes I make a map and decide that I want to make it smaller, or make another, smaller version of it. Now I have to count the tiles, make a new map of the appropriate size, and then start a game with the old map, cheat and reveal map, and then toggle between that and the map editor to accomplish this. Or sometimes I make a map and decide I need more room. I should be able to enlarge the map in that case. Basically I should be able to change the size of the map at any time, not just before I begin creating a map.

* Open a new window with a map, open a new map in a new window. I should be able to open as many windows/maps as my computer can handle.

* Paint bucket: I should be able to fill a specifiable area with any terrain type.

* Guide lines: Currently when I make maps I draw grids -- I make rows and columns of arctic terrain (since that is the least used, at least by me). Then I use the grid thus created as longitude and latitude lines. I look at a real map and build my map based on that, one quadrant at a time. It's much easier to keep things proportional that way, though it is a pain to make the grid. Also the grid I make is actually part of the map, so I have to go and draw over these arctic squares. It would be better to have a grid system that is not part of the actual map, but only part of the editor. This would be like the guide lines in Photoshop.

* The ability to draw a line: I should be able to place a terrain in one sqaure, and the same terrain in other square, and have a line of that terrain drawn connecting the two points.

* Lock any terrain: Currently I can lock the ocean squares so I don't draw over those. Why can't I lock any other terrain type(s)?

* A better random map generator. I don't have any specific suggestions right now, but the Civ 2 generator is horrible. The Civ 1 generator was better, IMO.

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 11-20-2000 01:23 PM Do you prefer standard Windows-based interfaces with standard types of controls (i.e., select/combo boxes, tree metaphors, etc.) or something more customized and specific to the game?

For this particular game (main game + map-editor) i actually prefer standard MS Windows-style interface with standard Windows controls. Now, stop there! Are you serious, Ralf?? Are you talking about MS Office-graphics?

No! Like everybody else (i believe), i want some customized game interface-ATMOSPHERE.

But *why* not start out with "naked" 100% MS Windows-style - and then let the player have the free choice between different "clothes" (= custom Civ-skins). Nothing drastic; positions, screens and functions remains unchanged. Only superficial cosmetic changes, like colours, patterns, styles, shapes and such.
Could you guys imagine how artisticly talented people out there, really would LOVE to set their teeths into the project of designing the cosmetics around the existing positions, screens and functions in this true follow-up to the all-time classic?

Wood-buttons or shiny metallic ones? For some people, designing these frameworks could be a mini-hobby in iself. "I dont care for this superficial stuff" - OK, choose naked Windows, or some of the more sparse and functional skins then. Check out www.neoplanet.com for inspiration (remember though: if FIRAXIS chooses to implements such a function themselfes, the result is going to be much more integrated then Neoplanets third-party "shell" on top of MS Internet Explorer).

So much for the "cosmetics". What about the controls and functions? Here, i would like to see even more Windows design-mechanics then in SMAC. In addition to select/combo boxes, tree metaphors, radio- or toggle buttons, tabs-screens - also top-right dropdown-menys and (why not) customized toolbar ala simplified Ms Office.

What about principal guidelines how to present the ongoing game-information?

1/ Make one (yes one) big 640x480 multi-tabbed "city/empire/and-all-the-rest" manager-screen (any tab can be radio button-defaulted on fly). Please DONT split up the manager-info CTP-style, or even CTP-2 style.
Its all about *reducing* the amount of mouse-clicks - everything ONE click away on ONE multi-tabbed manager. I would have suggested 800x600 but this all-in-one manager should be nicely overviewable on laptops as well.

But what if i want to look at *several* screen-tabs at once? When you use the toolbar (or dropdown-menu) backup-screen alternative: you can look at several smaller simplified non-input data-only feedback-screens at once on your big high-res monitor. And they all remember their indevidually chosen screen-positions from game to game, of course.

2/ Dont be subtle when it comes to inform the player about cities and units without orders. Let then *flash* clearly and use automatic map-recentering. Also let above single mega-manager and all warnings-messages pop-up automatically in the users face if he wants it that way. If he *dont* want it that way, there should of course be options and tweaks for that as well.

3/ I loved the huge amount of info toggle-options in SMAC - do the same in Civ-3 as well. This or that warning-message or not? Automatic mega-manager popup, or not? And more!

In short; those who let the mayors control their huge 40-60+ city-empires, and primarily are interested in moving around armies, should not feel overwelmed by pop-up screens and popup-messages.
On the other hand: those who ENJOY micro-managing their smaller 15-20+ city-empires, and primarily are interested in nurturing these cities/city-areas for long parts of the game, should have every info/new order popped up in their faces, if they chooses that.

-The map editor should not change the tile selection when you use the keypad to move to new squares and place terrain. This is an annoying feature that adds much time to the creation of maps.

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 11-20-2000 01:23 PM Do you prefer standard Windows-based interfaces with standard types of controls (i.e., select/combo boxes, tree metaphors, etc.) or something more customized and specific to the game?

Im not sure if above only implies the map-editor. I beleive it envolves suggestions about the MAIN GAME as well.

Dont forget this important subject - not everything is about that map-editor, you know. I have already started in my previous post.

Barbarians: If Civ3 is going to retain Barbarians as a "differently abled" civ, it would be nice if a single toggle could give them ALL the capabilities of a typical AI civ.

1) If there is 3D elevation in the maps, the ability to import heightmaps would be nice. This would make it easy to edit (can be done in a paint program) and, perhaps more importantly, to use real-world data (by grabbing USGS DEM data). SimCity 3000 allows this, though not very easily (requires entering a "cheat" code). A better example might be Myth II. I realize that there may be issues to work out with regard to using a rectangular heightmap in an isometric view (assuming it's similar to CivII in that respect)...

2) "In my dreams" feature: Random map generation that (optionally, since it would take time) actually runs through a few million years of plate tectonic and climate simulation. See if you can't entice Greg Costikyan to design it for you -- I saw some Designer's Notes somewhere where he was proud of finally being able to use his geology degree for just this purpose in the little-known "Evolution" game he worked on for Discovery Multimedia (in fact, I sent him an email suggesting a utility to export Evolution maps to CivII, and he said it was something they'd actually thought about doing -- Evolution ends at pretty much the point where Civilization begins -- but decided that since the games use radically different map styles that it would be too difficult...).

A scenario should be a single file/folder that can easily be installed. This should include graphics, sounds, texts, map, everything...

And like the other guy said, no artificial limits like the 'only sea units can transport' limit.

I once wanted to make an alternate history scenario, with a balloon unit that can transport ground units, but I couldn't.

Another example of an artificial limit would be the fact that I can't stop certain civs from getting certain techs or certain units. Let's say I want to create a humans vs. aliens scenario. If the humans steal the aliens' guns they shouldn't build alien units, but human units with the new type of gun.

A simple way to add this would be to give one unit more than one prereq tech, and create a 'civ-type' tech which is not stealable, but rather defines the type of civ. (Human-Tech and Alien-Tech for example)

Also, graphics MUST be modifiable. I couldn't figure out how to put in my own graphics for SMAC units, so I couldn't make any scenarios.

Im not sure if this is 100% workable, but it would be absolutely great if the Civ-3 map-editor had the ability to allow map-constructing players to manually pin-point invisible AI-city locations on hand-made maps (locations - NOT to be confused with placing visible scenario-cities - thats a different thing).
The AI could then ONLY found cities on these pre-designated squares, carefully hand-dotted all over these maps. The human player can (of course) found hes own cities anywhere he wants.

In order to expand, first AI-city have produce the equivivalent recourses of an settler-unit (no cheating). If an AI-city location is perhaps 6 squares away from that first city - the AI simply have to wait 6 turns: then the second city pops up automatically on that pre-designated square/location. During gameplay yet "uninhabitad" AI city locations are of course all invisible from a human player viewpoint.

The invisible programming-benefit:

The hopeless task of effectively trying to navigate AI-controlled settlers to promising city locations on an unknown map, just under a few short in-between-turns seconds, is totally bypassed!!
This is already taken cared of by the map-constructor. All the AI-civ have to do is to regurlary check up if these originally empty locations isnt already occupied/overlaped by any other AI-player (or by the unknown "wild card" here = the human player), before expanding himself.

The visible human player-benefit:

quote: Originally posted by MarkG on 11-23-2000 09:57 AM ARE YOU SAYING THAT UNITS IN CIV3 ARE STILL A SIMPLE GIF?

Well, based on what I've said before about the goal of this game to be the absolute best Civ game ever, I think it's pretty safe to assume we're no longer using single-tile images for the units a la Civ II. =)

What I was specifically making mention of in my post earlier was that "sprite editors" that are included with games are usually just flimsy little apps whipped up in a few minutes to satisfy that "OK, now they we can say that sprites are editable" requirement. In most cases, that "sprite editor" is rudimentary at best and horribly awkward to use at worst. I would tend to think that mod developers who are serious about creating new graphics for a game would prefer to use professional-level tools like Photoshop or even shareware apps that are more feature-rich than a simple "draw and erase" type editor.

Dan Magaha
Firaxis Games, Inc.

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 11-23-2000 03:30 PM For this particular game (main game + map-editor) i actually prefer standard MS Windows-style interface with standard Windows controls. Now, stop there! Are you serious, Ralf?? Are you talking about MS Office-graphics? No! Like everybody else (i believe), i want some customized game interface-ATMOSPHERE. But *why* not start out with "naked" 100% MS Windows-style - and then let the player have the free choice between different "clothes" (= custom Civ-skins). (snip)

Ralf,

I don't disagree with you, and this idea has been tossed around in the office, but let's try to keep this thread specifically on-topic regarding editor functionality. I'd like to keep this thread from becoming just another reincarnation of a general Civ III wishlist for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is my own sanity.

Thanks,

Dan Magaha
Firaxis Games, Inc.

1) External, WITH precision over parameters limitation.

2) DarkReign's style but sticking to FW options.

3) Waypoints manoeuvering on multiple fields, nothing i would like more than to really intercept for example; by pathing my planes, a bomber endangering a city limits defensive towers. Tectonic, ground, sea, atmospheric, space levels.

4) You could also refer to a letter i sent in April 98 to Todd Cioni.

Discworld (based on the Terry Pratchett books) - this would require the ability to designate a terrain type as being totally impassable to all units (to use for the "space" that would surround the edges of a disc-shaped world in a rectangular map), or perhaps that would *destroy* any units attempting to traverse it (ie, falling off the edge of the world), and possibly an option like the one in CivII that let you specify that there is no "wraparound" (an option that appears to be missing in CTP2, grumble grumble). Both of these options would have wider application -- a scenario covering only Europe, for example, wouldn't wrap around, and impassable "wall" terrain would allow things like an all-underground scenario.

Historical scenarios - Again, "no wraparound" is a must. Other options that would be useful: Setting particular squares/cities/units/etc. as victory point objectives. Setting entirely new victory conditions, for that matter (e.g., establish a trade route with China, discover the Northwest Passage, etc.). Specifying start points for every civilization, such that even if only a few are selected when starting a new game, they will appear in their historical locations (and perhaps even if they pop in later to replace destroyed civs). Named terrain (see below). The ability to place special resources by hand in their historical locations.

Other editor features:

Named Terrain - It would be neat to be able to name landmarks (even if it would have no functional use). For example, a historical scenario could have "Mississippi River", "Lake Superior", "Rocky Mountains", etc. labeled as such. It could even be set up so that whichever player first discovers a landmark, they could have the option of giving it their own name ("Bob's Mountains"), though that's beyond the scope of an editor discussion.

Linked Maps - I believe HOMM3 allows you to do this, to have a surface map linked to an underground map in specific locations. Without having bought it, it looks like Civ2:ToT also has something similar.

Scenario presentation - As you might know, some scenario designers include large html files within their works to tell the player what's this all about. Wouldn't it be cool if this was a built-in feature. I don't mean any 3d-presentation like in Hidden&Dangerous before each mission, but a simple tool with which you could give your players a look to different parts of scenario and provide text messages before game starts. Not essential though.

Anyway: i like El hidalgoīs idea of cropping and enlarging existing coninent-shapes.

Customizing.......I suppose open-sourcing it is out of the question?

I'd definitely want an external editor. I think in-game editors are too restricted by the the game interface...usually playing a game and designing for one are different enough that an interface that would be efficient for one is clunky for the other. I'd also stick with standard Windows controls...everybody is familiar with those metaphors, so it's easier for most people.

Also, I'd try to integrate as many options as possible into the editor. When you load it, you should be able to create or select a working directory that has the map file, unit graphics, txt files, etc., and edit them all in some kind of integrated manner. For instance, a dialog box where you edit units should allow you to set the attributes, prereqs, unit graphic, and attack sound seamlessly, without the user ever knowing what files are being edited. There doesn't need to be an integrated bitmap editor or anything...this dialog box would just have the ability to import from a bitmap to the game file.

It would be nice if you could export a mod/scenario to a single .pak file or whatever for distribution.

Map editor...definitely paint-style, but I want more options as to brush styles than boxes of different sizes. I'd love to see a 'near terrain' brush, where you pick a certain type of terrain and it paints not just that terrain, but terrains that are related to it. For instance, a 3x3 near terrain brush set to 'hills' might paint hills, forest, and a mountain in a 3x3 block, but never ocean or desert. A brush shape other than a box would be nice, too. Is the map going to have altitudes a la SMAC?

Cut-and-paste is a must. A drag-and-drop palette would be nice for resource squares, terrain improvements, and units. I think cities wouldn't work well from a palette because of the number of options involved...a 'city placement wizard' would be truly sweet. Click a square, and a wizard gives you the option of quick or advanced options. Choose quick, and you just select the alignment and a generic city template (customizable templates!) like 'large industrial' that sets population, structures, units, surrounding terrain improvements, etc. Ideally, the template would be able to detect the tech level of the civilization and modify the structure list appropriately...but that's candy. If you chose advanced, you'd get a dialog box with a tabbed interface for setting up everything associated with that city by hand. Structures should be set from a list of checkboxes...the list should be read from the scenario's rules files, not a generic one.

Structure, unit, city, and terrain graphics should all be importable by this editor and automatically placed into the appropriate files. A 3DSMAX->CivIII import filter for units would be truly sweet. ...failing that, you should be able to override any 3D graphics with a 2D bitmap. Out of curiousity, are you doing voxels again? Integrating an interface skin with your scenario distribution would be a cool toy...

There should be the ability to just create and export mods without needing an actual scenario to go with them.

Scipt editing...I think this should be left to text files for the most part. Most people never use scripting, and I'd prefer power to ease of use because of that. If you do integrate it in the editor somehow, the ability to do step-through debugging would be very nice. Might have to do that in-game, though...I don't know. I think as many events as possible should be visible to the scripting engine. That's a broad statment, but I don't really have much in the way of specific requests there. It would be nice to be able to detect a change in government or SE settings, whatever will be used in CivIII.

If you guys allowed AI bots for different civilizations, I'd give you my firstborn son. If you wanted him. Ditto for making the interface XML customizable...but, that's beyond the scope of the editor, I suspect.

Tech tree editor...the interface for this is critical. I'd love to see some kind of hyperbolic tree viewer where you can drag and drop prereq connections around the tree. The viewer could also be loaded in-game as part of the help files. Some kind of GUI for defining prereqs is an absolute must, though, and you should be able to see unit and structure prereqs as well as the tech tree itself.

1) Drag and drop Special resorce Tials, to beter recreate real world maps(also the ability to modify the values individual tial types and Special terains alow in that scenario.

1a) also the ability to select more difering special tial types for use by the random genorators, and to Exclude specific types(IE Excluding Tundra-glaciers in a African-style map, or having more forest terain with no oceans in a Mid-america style random map.

2) Ability to include or exclude units-buildings-WotW-tial inprovments-alowed tec advances, AI personality types ect with a on screen Menu(simular to the Unit selection-exclusion in CTP3s editor) and to alow/disalow or scale the Tec progress to the time alowed in scenario

The reason for this is that with a powerful SCENARIO-EDITOR you can, besides making historic and modern scenarios, also tailor-cut exactly how you want these futuristic (or fantasy) scenarios to be - including chosen value-systems and overal existence-conditions.

The problem with expanding the MAIN GAME horizon beyond 2040, is that Firaxis then easily build themselfes in a corner. As long as we are dealing with prior 2040, then we are dealing with mostly known value-systems and realities. Unless something very drastic happens the next 40 years, the historic and modern facts and conditions of mankinds existence here on earth are likely to stay, mostly the same.

However, then we are looking beyond - into the distant 2100-3000 AD future, then our indevidually subjective (and often narrow-minded) pre-conceptions about our future begins to rear its ugly head. Someone wants "market- and mega-corp" to be the most advanced future government, while others wants "Tecnocracy" (what ever that means). A third wants a "humane world-peace and economical justice" government.

These future made-up governments and value-systems felt perfectly OK in SMAC, because the Alpha Centauri world was so totally strange and different. But, know we are talking MOTHER EARTH here.
Personally, i feel almost repulsion about the idea of "Market- and Mega-corp" being an so-called "advanced", and still viable future 2200-2500 AD government alternative, while likewise; someone else feel the same about some unrealistic "social paradise" type of "true Utopia".

Even though such a utopic government-type could be implemented in the main game, its almost unavoidable that we have narrow-minded ideas about the limitations of such a futuristic humane utopia-society.

The truth is WE DONT KNOW what our future is going to be. We can only believe strongly (or vaguely), or perhaps not believe at all.

Why not let a powerfull, easy-to-use and reasonably newbie-friendly SCENARIO-EDITOR overtake the responsibility of how Civ-3 2041-3000 AD future is going to look like? Those who wants a Bladerunner-style Civ-future can tailor-cut such a scenario. Why not sell the game with some alternatively different future-scenarios included?

Final principe-ideas about the editor:

I want an external editor. Ok, that cheat menu is cool enough for minor things and tweaking the game you're in. but for main creation, I go for an external. one I can call up from the main game if I want.

I want to be able to have multiple maps open, and select any size of terrain, and put it (with or without cities, at my convenience) into my new map. I currently can lock the oceans/coastline. I want to be able to lock terrain types, or just select a hunk of the map (of whatever size or shape I choose) and lock it down, so I don't accidentally screw up my piece of work while building onto other stuff.

I want to be able to set down terrain specials, Tile improvements, and pollution on the map I design.

I also want to be able to change government effects (not just their names) and improvement and wonder effects (not just their names).

I want to be able to designate which wonders, techs, units, and city improvements are availble to each civ. a check on and off list would be nice.
I would like to have a few representative scenarios available, and a tutorial showing us how you made them with your editor.

That's for me. I'm not much of an in depth person, but the great scenario makers should have a massive array of stuff at their hands. I barely know what photoshop is, much less how to use it, but these masters use it a lot and need to have their files accessible.

I'd like to caution Firaxis about making the sprite graphics so sophisticated that creating new units, city improvements, and etc, would be beyond the expertise of the average Civ fan mod creator. Fan created Mods have done a lot to keep the Civ genre alive.

A user friendly interface that enables the average mod maker to edit the properties of units, advances, wonders, technologies, to edit the tech tree, to insert new "sprites", and to set events is also essential.

Map Editor

1. The ability to crop and resize maps.
2. The ability to cut & paste large sections of the map.
3. The ability to place cities, units and tile improvements on the map.
4. A preview option on the load map screen that shows the map in very little detail.
5. The ability to set national borders.

Technology Editor

1. The ability to see the tech tree in a flow chart format.
2. The abilty to "attach" (set prerequsites) technologies on the flow chart of the entire tech tree.
3. The ability to alter the abilites of each technology (i.e. allowing tile improvements, etc.)
4. A limitless amount of tech slots.
5. The ability to set the abilities of the technology from panels.

Terrain Editor

1. Allowing different drawings of each terrain that depend on its position and randomization.
2. Allowing the setting of sprites for terrain.
3. Allowing the making of tile improvements of your very own.
4. Allowing as many terrain types as the scenario designers wants.
5. Allowing the setting of how the AI reacts to different types of terrain.

Unit Editor

1. Limitless unit slots.
2. The ability to give units abilities made by the user (i.e. factory units which can produce 1 unit of a predefined type per turn)
3. The ability to choose whether a unit displays a shield or not.
4. The ability to create land and air units that can carry other units.
5. The ability to create sprites for units easily.

Events Editor

1. Many more triggers and actions (see SLIC)
2. Allowing a limitless number of flags.
3. Allow the usage of the @AND command as many times as one wants within a single event.
4. Creating commands of your very own without hacking into the game.
5. The ability for users to post "their" commands on the Internet for everyone else to download and use.

That's my two cents. I hope that you find my suggestions helpful.

Dont forget our needs, because we are many!

Map Editor

1. The ability to drag-and-drop cities, units, tile improvements on the map. Included in above is the idea of global and national city-distrubution of units and city-improvements. Dont make the process more repetiously tedious when it has to be.