In case I forget- when the next update comes, you will have to start new games, due to some changes I made in the units.txt.

One thing you can do in your current games- measure how changing to a government with different wage expectations affects your civ.
The early govs up to Democracy have a -1 (3) expectation, as does Communism. Dem, Fascism and Fund have a 0 (5) expectation, and the future govs have a +1 (7) expectation.
If the higher wages take more than the advantages gained in the gold and science coefficients of the more modern govs, then we have a problem.

To answer some of the questions in the first thread:

Rhuarc, there is no way I can debug a feature like hotseat that the creators of the game could not fix.

Tim, you should be able to use the Advances chart to tell when wonders and terraforming become available. I added the terraform info in the last update.

Well it is now 7:33pm pacific, and now I have a bigger problem. The Cost to build new Unites or Improvments is still the same but the time to build them has gone way up. A granary now take 100 turn to build, a unit 400 turns, a wonder 1,800 turns, I know you wanter to slow things down a bit but this is kinda crazy. The discovery time is still the same, between 5 and 10 turns for a new discovery. I'm in the early 1800.

I just move this post over here so maybe someone can tell me what is happing. Some Unites even take longer than 400 turns. I only have a few cities w/advance production (Mill etc.), some Factory, I don't think I have anything newer than factory.

Wes hope you get well soon. You have been a big help over the last year. Yes it had been a year.
4-7-01
Since we were posting at the same time 9:39 PM pacific I will go check F-1. Thank you.

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[This message has been edited by joseph1944 (edited April 06, 2001).]
v

"One unit dying" animation again...

I saw it two times again. When I saw it whe unit is visible(once it was phalanx) and unit's power indicator shows there is no power(so the unit must die) and the unit fades away. There is no dying sound. Right after this I moved units to every square around the city and there were no enemies(spies etc). But of course it might be possible that there were enemy unit and AI moved the unit away before my turn started(??)

Yeah, I'm having the same problem, first the tech that enabled ironclads came to me and I was happy finally could kick everyone ass !

But I discovered something dunno what that was and woesch.. ironclads were gone and ship of the line to !
I'm stuck with stinkin' galleons ! These babies sink faster than bricks !

I dunno which tech I discovered that made the ships go away but I'm sure that that is not good !
Well hope it's adressed soon, bye bye now !

What I can't figure out is why some people have probs with gold and units ?
I'm playing very hard... 8 civs and custom map 200x250 and my civ is 17 cities theocracy adn my unitcount is 128.
and growing fast ! And still my units cost me about 26% of my total production.
My gold keeps flowing and I save app. 2000 gold per turn.
If even I can do it so can you all !!!!

BTW,just for laughs, I discovered sanitation in 2079 ! ;D

BTW, maybe it's already adressed somewhere but all comment was welcome I read somewhere so here it is ..... is have the govs republic and democracy and they do really SUCK ! I'm in 21+ right now and I'm still hanging on to theocracy !
It used to be something like, discover repulic asap for science but I can't play the game on republic it sucks !
I'm not saying it's a bad thing but the govs are way different from what they used to be. I never ever used theocracy before but now it's great !
Better then all the rest !

The wage system can very well throw science out of whack. Higher wages can really drain your gold, especially if you have a large jump in the difference as you move your sliders (base wage/unit wage)

I ran some tests on the various governments using some basic cities (no improvements) in the default setup. When wages are higher, it will put you in the negative for gold. Granted, as you get to higher forms of government, you should have gold enhancement improvements in place to offset that problem, but you will also be using the sliders to boost your gold to a good level. In the default file, this isn't so much an issue, but Wes incorporated severe happiness penalties for adjusting the sliders - as I did in mine - causing some problems with the supposedly 'science governments' which usually have higher wages.

A solution may be to use a base wage setting for a series of governments
(Ancient age will all have the same wages, Medieval the same, and so forth) or possibly remove the happiness penalty on the wage slider.

What some playtesteters may need to do is monitor the AI civs every 50-100 turns to see how they are handling this issue too.

I fixed the Ironclad bug, so they will not be disappearing on you.

Governemnts: I lowered the production bonus for Absolute Monarchy, so that it is not quite so powerful. AM is a transition government, so it is more powerful than the ancient govs, but weaker than the modern govs.
I raised the conquest distress by one for all govs, and lowered the bonus for Dem and Virt Dem.

Once this next update is posted, I am determined to play into the modern era so that I can judge the science slowdown you all are reporting for myself.

Commerce: several changes here.
I added more commerce to the production TIs, to gradually increase income as the game goes along.
I also eliminated upkeep costs for gold improvements, other than City Clocks and TV stations. This way, there is no reason not to be build them. You can envision the upkeep as coming out of them before you collect their benefits.

Growth: I raised the max city pop available with an Aqueduct from 16 to 20. The overcrowding relief is not higher, however, so you will have to deal with the unhappiness as you see fit. This allows you to get the full benefit from 2nd radius TIs until you get Sewer Systems.
I also gave a food bonus to commerce TIs, to prod the AIs into building them. Hexagonian helped me out on this one. This should help the AIs improve their science performance.

Note: the old "wonder" units are now called Elite units, since they will be granted by chance when you obtain the necessary enabling advance. Check them out in the Special page of the Med charts if you have not already done so. I think Gedrin is getting back in the game to write the slic code for this one, as well as a Refugee trigger, where a percentage of a city's pop flees to other cities in the civ if their home is conquered. Details are yet to be worked out.
I will make an Elite concept for the GL once Charles gets it back to me.

Is there any chance you could post the changes you have now, the government fixes, unit fixes, AI fixes, TI fixes, etc... now and then post another update when you receive the expected Slic code and what have you from other people. That way we could playtest the current changes independent of the new Slic changes. This may help us get a clearer picture of the effects of your current changes without adding the complexity of the changes to come?

Yeah, I know, I am full of BS. Yes, you found me out. What I really want is to just get my hands on all the changes you have already made. My other arguement are valid though, right.

quote: Note: the old "wonder" units are now called Elite units, since they will be granted by chance when you obtain the necessary enabling advance. Check them out in the Special page of the Med charts if you have not already done so. I think Gedrin is getting back in the game to write the slic code for this one, as well as a Refugee trigger, where a percentage of a city's pop flees to other cities in the civ if their home is conquered. Details are yet to be worked out. I will make an Elite concept for the GL once Charles gets it back to me.

Was there a problem implementing Wonder units? If not, what made you change your mind about them?

quote: Originally posted by Pintello on 04-10-2001 05:01 PM Hi Wes, Is there any chance you could post the changes you have now, the government fixes, unit fixes, AI fixes, TI fixes, etc... now and then post another update when you receive the expected Slic code and what have you from other people. That way we could playtest the current changes independent of the new Slic changes. This may help us get a clearer picture of the effects of your current changes without adding the complexity of the changes to come? Yeah, I know, I am full of BS. Yes, you found me out. What I really want is to just get my hands on all the changes you have already made. My other arguement are valid though, right. Timothy Pintello

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That's the best thing I've heard all day! Such a subtle way of asking too.

Wes, I think this boy deserves an emailed copy of the changes. hahahaha

Alright, so Tim tricked me. He's devious that way (which is a surprising quality in a Baptist Deacon).

Anyway, since I didn't get in any of the stuff that Dale, among others, is supposed to be working on, I will post what I have.

Check out my tga file for the spearman - I recently went through all my new units and added the background from CTP2.
http://www.mydocsonline.com
login is hexagonia
password is hextapul

Some things I noticed, maybe already adressed but I don't have time sifting through 240 messages so excusez moi if I print anything which you already know.

1st : in the year 1999 I got a feat of wonder for building so many orbital labs, but I didn't even have the tech that gives me the damn things so I think I got this feat because I was building public schools.
This needs to be fixed.

2nd. : The AI rarely...should I say NEVER EVER terraforms, the AI build farms on top of grasslands but it builds mines ontop of plains.
This gives situations where an AI doesn't produce food but production is very high. Cities in 2139 where still only 4 large because of this.
If the AI balances this so that it terraforms a portion of the plains to grasslands for farming.
It totally unbalances the game, because AI's with lots of grasslands have large cities but no mines thus production, AI's with lots of plains have great production but no food.
Can this be solved, because some AI's are to easy beatable this way !

quote: Wes, There's supposed to be an update but I can't find it anywhere and your homepage still says 27 march version and is not downloadable?

And Hex, Wes also asked me to check your TGA files. I used PSP 7.02 and ACDSEE, both weren't able to open your files. I think that either your photoshop had a problem or the zip file was corrupted.

I have downloaded and started a game with your new text files. I did not have the same problem that Joseph1944 reported, but that is probably because I am using Windows 2000 and had to load everything manually anyway. At any rate. I am into the early ADs with the current test game. Advances seem to be coming well. I just recently entered the Medieval Age and it looks pretty good so far. All the militias have upgraded fine to the Fyrdman, that is the latest one that I have available.

The Hebrews, who are my neighbors, are expanding too close to me. I will probably need to do something about them pretty soon. I am working on Gunpowder and will have it in about 24 turns. Once I get that I will change to Absoulte Monarchy and send in the troops. I have to wait till then because I am at my city limit size and a little past. I will probably not be able to do this till this weekend as school starts up today.

Well that is all for now.

An enemy Catapult was bombarding from his city an army of mine who was parking right next to that city. Instead of hurting my army (I'm pretty sure it wasn't hurt although I can't say for sure) the Catapult itsekf was destroyed!

I don't know if it's supposed to be this way (so forgive me if it is) but after I conquer a city which it's image is diffrent than my cities (for example, a Medival city image and a modern city image), the image doesn't change to reflect any other city in my possession