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Topic:   Apolyton's "Great Library" Format for Better Printing
Scouse Gits


b.02-15-99
posted August 23, 2000 15:27   Click Here to See the Profile for Scouse GitsClick Here to Email Scouse Gits Visit Scouse Gits's Homepage!
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I am asking if we can organise the vast amount of knowledge that this site has generated about Civ 2 into a better reference format.

At present we have to trawl the archives to hunt for relevant threads. When a topic is located there may only be a few postings of any value. At the start of the year, Inca made a valiant attempt at trying to produce a thread of distilled wisdom. This never really worked as too many aspects were being discussed under one heading. The wisdom became diluted - not distilled - and the idea slipped away.

My proposals are as follows:

1) The currently under used Civ 2 "Help" section be transformed into a reference section.

2) This would consist of locked threads only. Many examples spring to mind as I write.
Paul's OCC Guide
Dave V on his approach to ICS
William Keenan's Paper on Barbarians
The information on Spaceship times/configurations
Oedo's discovery on the years for revolutions without anarchy
Xin's analysis of approaches to the game, covering the three main strategies of money/science/shields. (I can't tell you the thread he wrote this into …… see my point!)
My apologies if I have not included your wisdom! There are many more not mentioned.

3) Any poster would be at liberty to write a piece on an aspect of the game, they believe they know well. Initially, a draft form for discussion would be launched in the strategy section. (The vet civvers on the site will soon spot incomplete or wrong information.) The author would then be encouraged to amend the work with the correct information. Then, subject to the approval of Ming the Moderator, the thread would be entered into the Great Library/Reference Section or whatever we wish to call it.
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SG (2)

finbar


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posted August 23, 2000 20:05   Click Here to See the Profile for finbarClick Here to Email finbar Visit finbar's Homepage!
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Damn fine idea, SG2, as always. Your blood, as they say, is worth bottling. Wouldn't hurt to lump together the various Tips For MP Newbies (including the need for ICQ, etc) threads and adding to the list.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

MacUser


b.02-15-99
posted August 23, 2000 22:15   Click Here to See the Profile for MacUserClick Here to Email MacUser Visit MacUser's Homepage!
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Are the Posters on this Forum just too cool and creative, or what! Wonderful, splendid idea!!! Hmmmm....it would need a dedicated vet-civ moderator....someone who really believes in the idea...someone to translate Brit slang...someone like...SCOUSE GITS and SCOUSE GITS 2! (you needed to replace the Prince title anyway!

Edit - add SG2 cause I didn't read the post carefully enough!
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"And now for something completely different..."
- John Cleese
[This message has been edited by MacUser (edited August 23, 2000).]

Tom DeMille


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posted August 23, 2000 22:23   Click Here to See the Profile for Tom DeMilleClick Here to Email Tom DeMille Visit Tom DeMille's Homepage!
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I think the rest of us were keeping our mouths shut until someone else was nominated for the job.

Great idea. The new sticky thread option will allow those types of loacked threads to be readily available in the "help" section of the forum.

inca911


b.02-15-99
posted August 25, 2000 11:40   Click Here to See the Profile for inca911Click Here to Email inca911 Visit inca911's Homepage!
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Well, since I have experience and a good start on the task of building a distilled CivII reference thread, I'd have no problem volunteering to be the "Apolyton CivII Librarian." Certain catagories for the Library would be necessary to allow better presentation of the information. Topics such as OCC, ICS, SSC, The Space Race, Trade, PBEM, Cheats, etc would be a good beginning. Care must be taken in posting papers written by non-Apolytoners to ensure that credit is given where credit is due. I chose not to post a good paper on warfare entitled "Fire!" , because I could not track down the author to get his permission. I propose that the current Distilled Tips thread first be rewritten and better catagorized. Then suggestions gathered for other topics to be added in the Library. A draft can then be written for new submissions and the draft posted and reviewed prior to its insertion into the Library. I have bumped the Distilled Tips thread so it can be more easily reviewed. Any other suggestions or comments?
Ming


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posted August 25, 2000 11:48   Click Here to See the Profile for MingClick Here to Email Ming Visit Ming's Homepage!
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I will bring the idea to MarkG and DanQ and see what they think. Maybe the Civ Help Forum is the right place, or maybe a dedicated forum under the Civ Section would work also. I'll see what they think.

Heck, I'll even update my cheat write up for inclusion

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

Sten Sture


b.02-15-99
posted August 25, 2000 13:14   Click Here to See the Profile for Sten StureClick Here to Email Sten Sture Visit Sten Sture's Homepage!
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Edit - this paper is not in the Apolyton hints and tips section...my bad! I'll try to rewrite it anyway or maybe just post parts of it on this board for critique.


inca911 - the Fire! paper is already available (wrong!) in the Apolyton long tips section - but it is so rife with errors and bad strategy that it really needs to be re-written. I am bored at work today, maybe I can have a go. That whole section, by the way, has a bunch of really bad strategy pieces, maybe we should just re-write all of them or look to publish our finished result there as an accurate piece. Or at least add reviews or comments on their errors...
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited August 25, 2000).]

Scouse Gits


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posted August 25, 2000 17:04   Click Here to See the Profile for Scouse GitsClick Here to Email Scouse Gits Visit Scouse Gits's Homepage!
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Thanks Ming! I too believe that this really needs doing and will volunteer for some light work if that helps.

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

Marcel I


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posted August 26, 2000 04:45   Click Here to See the Profile for Marcel IClick Here to Email Marcel I Visit Marcel I's Homepage!
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Excellent idea SG,

BTW The "Fire" paper was written by Marc Fisher.
The original e-mail adress I found is mfisher@mail.cjnetworks.com.
I don't know if he still uses this adress

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Adopt, Adapt and Improve

SilverDragon


b.02-15-99
posted August 26, 2000 12:53   Click Here to See the Profile for SilverDragonClick Here to Email SilverDragon Visit SilverDragon's Homepage!
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I have a mini-strategy that might be useful.
1. You attack an ai.
2. Once you conquer a city, they ask for a treaty, and you accept. Then, on their turn, they can't attack you. (unless they sneak attack, which they usually don't do until 3 or 4 turns into the treaty.)
3. Then, on your turn, you demand things, and ask them to withdraw troops. They declare war, you attack, and conquer a city.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until the evil ai despot is vanquished.
[This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited August 26, 2000).]
Ming


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posted August 26, 2000 13:53   Click Here to See the Profile for MingClick Here to Email Ming Visit Ming's Homepage!
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Against the AI, you can do a lot more than you can against a real person
SilverDragon


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posted August 26, 2000 17:14   Click Here to See the Profile for SilverDragonClick Here to Email SilverDragon Visit SilverDragon's Homepage!
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That's because they are so dumb.
quote:

the evil ai despot


BTW, Ming, is this a sticky thread? If not, please make it one.
By the way, I love the smily. That's why I use it so much.
[This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited August 26, 2000).]
MarkG
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
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posted August 28, 2000 13:12   Click Here to See the Profile for MarkGClick Here to Email MarkG  send a private message to MarkGSend a Message to UIN: 2865183 Visit MarkG's Homepage!
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sounds wonderfull!

feel free to do it!
just tell me what you'll need from me...

Scouse Gits
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posted August 28, 2000 20:29   Click Here to See the Profile for Scouse GitsClick Here to Email Scouse Gits  send a private message to MarkG Visit Scouse Gits's Homepage!
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Thanks Mark!

I think we need a section where we can have only locked threads - once the advice/wisdom has generally been agreed by the experienced players. (I can hear Ming saying "Case Closed!" - if you see what I mean!) If posters wish to submit a paper, they would first publish it on the Strategy Section for all to discuss the work.

My first thought was to use the Civ 2 Help section - which does not seem to have much traffic. However, you and Dan may think that a new Reference Section is a better idea. In short, we need a library to store the information.

Once this space is provided - we can start work.

These are only my thoughts. I am sure that those interested in the concept will add to the discussion.

Things are moving!

----------
SG (2)

Ming
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posted August 29, 2000 00:09   Click Here to See the Profile for MingClick Here to Email Ming  send a private message to MarkG Visit Ming's Homepage!
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Yeah... let's all discuss what might work best. Because once we "charge" ahead, it will be difficult to change.

So let's hear peoples ideas!!!!!!

(and thanks for your support MarkG)

------------------
Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

Scouse Gits
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posted August 29, 2000 05:12   Click Here to See the Profile for Scouse GitsClick Here to Email Scouse Gits  send a private message to MarkG Visit Scouse Gits's Homepage!
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OK - I'll make a start (I should add that I haven't discussed this with SG2 and this is simply my own vision) ...
How about a 'Great Library' page indexed under the 'Strategy' flag on the left hand menu. This page would contain an index of bookmarks to short (150 word?) concept summaries that would have a link to the definitive document (such as Paul's OCC guide - although I feel that Apolyton should hold a copy if only for back-up)
As for the 'editorial' process the strategy forum seems to be the right place, but some kind of flag perhaps in the thread title ie GL Proposal - How to kill the AI would certainly help - I would suggest perhaps some kind of general free for all in the initial stages and then a slightly more formal editorial process from a designated panel before acceptance and entry into the Library.
Well that was my three ha'p'orth - any improvements??

P.S. added in edit - MacUser only another 73 needed for that new title anyway! [and noone can accuse us of spamming when I use Edit to say this rather than another post!!]
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited August 29, 2000).]

SilverDragon
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posted August 29, 2000 19:37   Click Here to See the Profile for SilverDragonClick Here to Email SilverDragon  send a private message to MarkG Visit SilverDragon's Homepage!
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I have an idea. Each paper should be called a scroll of ancient wisdom.
William Keenan
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posted August 29, 2000 21:58   Click Here to See the Profile for William KeenanClick Here to Email William Keenan  send a private message to MarkG Visit William Keenan's Homepage!
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Excuse my interjection on this topic, but I felt I had something valuable to add. My experience working on the Scenario League team and as Webmaster of the Cradle of Civilization has taught me a few things about how to make a successfull civ website.

IMHO, there are three important elements required; who (webmaster), what (content), and where (hosting). It seems that the what and the where are crystal clear, the content is civ stratagy and Apolyton is the host. What is not clear is the who. The webmaster is a critical element. He or she must be Internet savy, artistically inclined, and passionate about the topic matter. As soon as the webmaster has been identified all the other details will fall into place.
[This message has been edited by William Keenan (edited August 29, 2000).]

SilverDragon
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posted August 31, 2000 18:04   Click Here to See the Profile for SilverDragonClick Here to Email SilverDragon  send a private message to MarkG Visit SilverDragon's Homepage!
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I put in an official petition to make this a sticky thread. Who is with me?
[RANT]BECAUSE I DEMAND TO KNOW WHY THIS THREAD WAS 3/4S OF THE WAY DOWN THE PAGE!!![/RANT]

[This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited August 31, 2000).]
Scouse Gits
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posted September 01, 2000 05:35   Click Here to See the Profile for Scouse GitsClick Here to Email Scouse Gits  send a private message to MarkG Visit Scouse Gits's Homepage!
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In fairness, Silver, if the thread drops off the sheet maybe the idea isn't viable - but as it is (viable) it won't (drop off the sheet) will it?
As for your idea of Scrolls of Ancient Wisdom - I think it excellent, but would not like to put Mr. Winkler's nose out of joint - he did get there first with an excellent page information albeit there has been some nibbling around the edges of its accuracy it is still sound general background and guidelines for the game.
See my new sig...

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

SilverDragon
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posted September 01, 2000 17:20   Click Here to See the Profile for SilverDragonClick Here to Email SilverDragon  send a private message to MarkG Visit SilverDragon's Homepage!
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Oops. Didn't know somebody beat me to the idea.
MarkG
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posted September 02, 2000 16:43   Click Here to See the Profile for MarkGClick Here to Email MarkG  send a private message to MarkGSend a Message to UIN: 2865183 Visit MarkG's Homepage!
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just to be sure, the thread is now top-ed
jpk
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posted September 02, 2000 16:46   Click Here to See the Profile for jpkClick Here to Email jpk  send a private message to MarkG Visit jpk's Homepage!
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There should be a glossary of some kind. Perhaps key words and phrases could be automatically linked to the glosssary.
Christantine The Great
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posted September 03, 2000 21:01   Click Here to See the Profile for Christantine The GreatClick Here to Email Christantine The Great  send a private message to MarkG Visit Christantine The Great's Homepage!
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If the topic is to be composed with only locked threads than there should be one thread that is unlocked, the Suggestion Box. There should be a template at the top of the page for people to follow like:

Name:

Rating of Library 1-5 (5 being the highest ):

Sugestion(s)/Comment(s):


Also don't forget credits!

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"Freedom, Trade, Christantine!"

HsFB
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posted September 05, 2000 16:15   Click Here to See the Profile for HsFBClick Here to Email HsFB  send a private message to MarkG Visit HsFB's Homepage!
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MY WAY TO CHEAT WITHOUT THE "Cheat mode" LABEL APPEARING ON THE SCORE.(however, the scenario label appears)
SilverDragon
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posted September 05, 2000 18:21   Click Here to See the Profile for SilverDragonClick Here to Email SilverDragon  send a private message to MarkG Visit SilverDragon's Homepage!
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It isn't your way. Everyone knows how to do that.
[This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited September 06, 2000).]
Scouse Gits
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As SG2 says in the opening post of this thread there are clearly some instant candidates for inclusion in the Great Library of Apolyton - but what else should go in - any suggestions? Should I start a new thread for proposed contents?

Good civin'

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

inca911
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posted September 06, 2000 08:38   Click Here to See the Profile for inca911Click Here to Email inca911  send a private message to MarkG Visit inca911's Homepage!
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I have a bunch of informatoin in my Distilled Civ Tips and Notes thread that you might want to review. Also add Oedo's Revolution Years as well.
Scouse Gits
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posted September 07, 2000 06:40   Click Here to See the Profile for Scouse GitsClick Here to Email Scouse Gits  send a private message to MarkG Visit Scouse Gits's Homepage!
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Inca - most certainly agree with both of those. I would add
- a definitive Glossary and Acronym article
- the uses of the Super Iron Clad
- and has anyone ever done a piece on Perfectionist Strategy? I don't recall seeing one - any volunteers??

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

jcarkey
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posted September 07, 2000 17:27   Click Here to See the Profile for jcarkeyClick Here to Email jcarkey  send a private message to MarkG Visit jcarkey's Homepage!
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I used to do a perfectionist style play. I dont remember how I did anything at all anymore. Sorry. Its just since coming to Apolyton I changed my ways.

------------------
What if the Hokey-Pokey is really what its all about?

Contact me at cpoland@mail.win.org

SCG
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posted September 07, 2000 19:17   Click Here to See the Profile for SCGClick Here to Email SCG  send a private message to MarkG Visit SCG's Homepage!
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I don't plan on writing a perfectionist strategy, but I can offer a few suggestions for someone who might want to. One possibility would be to build somewhere between 2 and 24 cities and try and build every city as if it were the only city - ie follow an OCC strategy in every city, but only use 1 for the OCC wonders. Only reason i suggest 24 is that there are 24 SS parts for the minimum space ship.

Another possibility would be to build a small number of cities, and delegate a task to each city. One could be the SSC, another could be the military force (think Sparta in ancient Greece), and perhaps other selected purposes could be chosen for however many other cities you have. Perhaps 1 dedicated to producing caravans every round for example, another for engineers at certain times in the game.

Also, someone could produce a refined strategy for the SSC and minimal feeder city approach, and I'm sure there are other other thoughts as well.

Ming
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So, what would you guys like to do.
I would like to recommend to Mark that a seperate forum be set up labeled "The Great Library" under the Civ Section. If he needs to remove one of the current sections to make room, I will suggest he just combine strategy and help into one.

I think the only threads there should be locked and only include the "white paper" on the subject. All discussion for new topics, or revisions can continue in the strategy section.

So, what do people think... I'm not locked into this, and I'm open to suggestions.

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

SCG
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If the Great Library does get its own forum, perhaps it could be run similar to the submitted columns. At the bottom of the entry, there can be a link to a thread in the strategy forum for comments/discussion/revision. Possibly, one or two other threads can be singled out as the preliminary discussion threads and either linked in from the strategy thread, or linked to the GL entry. The preliminary discussion threads probably should be locked and then linked to the new discussion thread. That way, it would be easier to see what discussions have already taken place, and there would be some control over the fragmentation of the discussion since there would be only one link from the GL entry that would accept new posts.
BuilderR
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Great idea!!(the GL)

But dont forget to make it also in :
a) downloadable HTML format(without ads and stuff).
b) printer friedly version

Scouse Gits
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Does my draft version of "DaveV's ICS Strategy" meet your requirements? Comments welcome.

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

LightEning
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posted September 11, 2000 12:15   Click Here to See the Profile for LightEningClick Here to Email LightEning  send a private message to MarkG Visit LightEning's Homepage!
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Hmm... and if I really get the best out of myself, I could post something about how to beat the AI at Prince level
inca911
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OK, so is anyone tasked with performing any specific actions yet? I see a lot of good discussions, and a few submissions have appeared, but has anyone identified the tasks that must be completed to move this project forward? I would propose an October 15th opening of the Library with these project milestones:

SG (the Great Librarian) compiles a first draft of Library ideas to date (without any new suggestions, for now) perhaps by the end of this month...? A working draft can then be placed online so a panel of reviewers (see below for more info) can look for gross omissions and false information. The intent of this draft is not to get everything included immediately! The feature creep on such a task would be hideous. The intent of this first draft is to encompass the solid, well-known Civ nomenclature, facts and tips to provide a document that can be used to open the Library and that can be used to establish a meaningful first format that Mark/Dave/Webmaster/??? can use to create the Library's home. I recommend that the working draft be reviewed both for content, and for Library filing topics (e.g. OCC, Trade, ICS, etc). The filing topics review should be completed by October 7. The content review should be completed by October 10, allowing 5 days for general tidying up of the word doc prior to the Library's opening.

Upon review of the first draft, Mark/Dave/Webmaster/??? creates a suitalbe home for this MSWord? document to reside on Apolyton. It doesn't need to be perfectly formatted yet, but the formatting review should be helpful. Formatting can be refined in time adding appropriate index topics and the like once the subject matter is better known. I think this task will take less than a couple of days, but a week is assigned to it to allow for some flex in intial formatting options.

A small review panel--say 5 people--is established for review of the intial library postings and for new submissions. I recommend a vote thread be started immediately to name the panel. However, the Librarian is automatically included in this panel so the voting will be for the 4 other panel members. I nominate Ming, Xin Yu, Paul and MarkG. Any objections or other nominations? If the majority of these 5 people agree to the content of a new submission thread, then the Librarian cleans up the submission for better organization and formatting and emails it for review to the panel one last time. If the majority are ok with the final version, it gets put in by Mark/Dave/Webmaster/???.

Future submissions are started via Great Library suggestions threads (as is already being done!). If enough positive votes are posted by the panel members, then the topic gets in. If enough negative votes are posted by the panel members, then the topic stays out. A timeline is placed on a new submission and is posted so appropriate review and feedback can occur in a timely fashion. 2 weeks should be appropriate.

Well, that's my $0.02. This is only a suggestion of a project timeline. If the times are unreasonable, just figure out where help must go to bring the schedule in. I can certainly help SG with document creation, review, and formatting if that area is too tight for the schedule. I think the website creation is an ongoing task for Mark/Dave/Webmaster/??? and that is a big reason Mark would be a good addition to the panel. It is critical that the persons responsible for doing the work also have the authority to accomplish their tasks. I also recommend that we decide on a person to organize the details of opening this Library on time and to perform tasks to help accomplish this goal (such as opening a panel voting thread). We can build all the consensus that we want, but unless there is clear leadership, consensus is the only thing that will get built on time! Any comments or alternate proposals?

kcbob
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posted September 12, 2000 08:29   Click Here to See the Profile for kcbobClick Here to Email kcbob  send a private message to MarkG Visit kcbob's Homepage!
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