posted May 20, 1999 13:10                

• City Improvements
• New ideas about possible things that improve a city

This means we talk about things you can only change IN the city-window, but has nothing to do with trade, economy, food, science or whatever else, and it has nothing to do with wonders and units as well. Just clear about City Improvements.
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Explanation about this Thread:
At the top I've posted 2 postings myself,
this one, and one that will be updated every day. The 2nd one is the most important one, since that one will contain in a clear way all the suggestions that are done so far in this Thread.

You can post new ideas and discuss them below, and I'll order them all in the 2nd post. This will give a clear overview to this Thread, and if you need more details, then just read the entire Thread.

posted May 20, 1999 13:10                

List of Current City Improvements:

• Baracks
• Granary
• Palace
• City Walls
• Temple
• Library
• Courthouse
• Marketplace
• Aqueduct
• Colosseum
• Harbor
• University
• Bank
• Cathedral
• Power Plant
• Stock Exchange
• Sewer System
• Port Facility
• Coastal Fortress
• Super Highways
• Factory
• Airport
• Mass Transit
• Hydro Plant
• Police Station
• Recycling Center
• Supermarket
• Nuclear Plant
• SAM Missile Battery
• Offshore Platform
• SDI Defense
• Research Lab
• Solar Plant
• Manufacturing Plant

Ordered by purpose [MBD's idea]

• Food
Granary, Aqueduct, Harbor, Sewer System, Supermarket

• Defense
Baracks, City Walls, Coastal Fortress, SAM Missile Battery, SDI Defense

• Science
Library, University, Research Lab

• Money / luxerious / Economy
Marketplace, Bank, Stock Exchange, Super Highways, Palace, Courthouse

• Production
Power Plant, Factory, Hydro Plant, Nuclear Plant, Offshore Platform, Solar Plant, Manufacturing Plant

• Hapiness
Cathedral, Colosseum, Temple

• Special
Recycling Center, Police Station, Mass Transit, Airport, Port Facility,

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List of ideas for new Improvements:

• Theater [EnochF]
• City Clock [EnochF]
• Hospital [EnochF]
• Cinema [EnochF]
• Pharmacy [EnochF]
• Television [EnochF]
• Security Monitor [EnochF]
• Fusion Plant [EnochF]
• Base Support Structures [Trachmyr] <== read more under the 'new ideas' section
• Pastuerization Plant (Adds 25% to total food due to the reduction in losses to spoilage.) [Sieve Too]
• Pesticide Plant (Adds another 25% to total food but increases pollution) [Sieve Too]
• Doctors house [to the already suggested “Pharmacy” and “Hospital”. A series of three related improvements.] [Ralph]
• City Park [Benefit: Makes one addional citizen content. Requires: Sanitation (Maybe a new advance, something like Modern Fertilizer) Cost: 60 shields Maint: 1 gold]
• Theme Park [Benefit: Two citizens happy. One additional gold for every 4 population. Plus 5 gold for every wonder in city(tourism). Requires: Mass Media advance(if Mass Media advance not in game then Electronics), Cost: 240 shields, Maint: 4 gold
• Transmitter [Benefit: Makes two citizens content(by distraction). With the advent of Mass Media(Electronics if Mass Media not in game) provides one additional gold for every two citizens(advertising). Requires: Radio, Cost: 120 shields, Maint: 2 gold
• ISP [Benefit: Plus 20% science in city. Plus 2 science for every other city with an ISP, including cities in other civs.
Requires: Computer, Cost: 160 shields, Maint: 3 gold] [ALL above by HarryKattz]
• Medieval Fairs
• forge
• textile mill/loom
• suburbs
• highways,
• public schools
• parks
• circus [all by wheathin]
• Bomb Shelter [Protects citizens from artiliery attacks, missle attacks, and bombing runs from aircraft. Prevents the city from going down in population from these attacks.] [Travathian]
• Stationary units (Possibly custom-designed) [Isle]
• SECURITY STATIONS [(automatic genetic and/or fingerprint identification when accessing city areas/buildings everywhere): automatically "detects" spies within city limits and may have a chance of making them fail. Spies may later gain an ability to have a chance to be hidden from security stations and decrease their fail chances.] [Freddz]

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List of other /new ideas

• Make improvements that belong to a nation or a religion or a gouvernament. [CyberShy]

examples:
# Muslim nations will never be allowed to build churches.
# Temples only work till 500 AD
# Communism disalbes churches / temples. (till another gouvernament is chosen)
# Wind Mills are typicall dutch improvements
# Mc Donalds has double the impact in the USA then in other countries etc. etc.

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• I'd resuggest in this new thread that the player be allowed to build miltiples of certain improvements [within limits, of course], with diminishing returns for subsequent iterations. [Druid2]

examples:
[lab = +100% ... lab*2 = +180% ... lab*3 = +%230% .. max build of "n".. which is set in a modifiable parameter file]

In addition to this idea: In big cities, more than one improvement of one type should be needed. I don't think there was only one Granary in ancient Rome. [Ecce Homo]

In addition to this idea: each new building of the same type will have a reduced effect, let's say 25% less than the previous one. Suppose you built 3 stables, then the first one builds a cavalry regiment using 100 shields, the second using 125 shields, the third using 150 shields. Some improvements, such as aqueducts and sewer systems, should not be able to build multiple times [Transcend]

In addition to this idea: Give cities the option to build multiple improvements when they become bigger. City of 10 can have 1 Marketplace, city of 18 can hae 2 Marketplaces, city of 26 can have 3 marketplaces etc.etc. [CyberShy]

In addition to this idea: 1 Granary in a 8 people city works 100% but one granary in a 9+ city works 70% and one Granary in a 15+ city works 50%. Now you're forced to build a 2nd Granary when your city become 9. [CyberShy]

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• That city improvements that effect science be dedicated to a technology category and the benefit gained through that improvement can only be applied to that category (or could be changed with a penalty.) [Zorloc]

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• Base Support Structures... a new city improvement
This Improvement includes ALL of the CRITICAL structures of PAST under a single name and structure, including all the benefits of it. The old buildings will be replaced, and the upkeep costs will be low. Auto upgrade or build upgrades when you move to a new age. (read more below in Trackmyr's post] [Trachmyr]

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• There seems to be some general agreement with the suggestion that some unit chassis and weapons require improvements to be built before the unit itself can be done.
In this case, extra city improvements will be needed in order to produce units - about 15 - 20 new structures need to be designed (spanning the whole of history, though). [Shining1]

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• City improvements must become inactive when technology gets better. (like wonders don't work forever) and be replaced with others. [CyberShy]

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• Allow cities (or require) to increase effectiveness in a few abstract aeras.
1) Food Production/Storage
2) Industry
3) Religion
4) Entertainment
5) Defence
6) Health
7) ect.

you can then chose to "Increase Industry Infrastructure"... which will give a bounus based on:
(level of industy) - (city size)) * percentage increase of all indusstry city improvements [Trachmyr]

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• Reduce The Number of Improvements
CivI had a reasonable number of improvements, and it was still a management nightmare IMHO to "max out" a city. In Civ2 I rarely even bother any more because there's just a never-ending list of gotta-haves. [Mark_Everson]

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• My idea: As a city grows, the player may get messages like "A private enterprise applies to build a Factory in London". You cannot take use of privately owned buildings' production, but they will give you tax income. [Ecce Homo]

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• More ancient improvements are needed,
How about public bathes like in Ancient Greece and Rome? Burial grounds, which become modern day cemetaries? In feudal times you had keeps, which watched over the surrounding area, these could be similar to a Headquarters, but not quite as powerful.[Travathian]

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• A city can select the percentage of its resources that go into each area (e.g. science, money, happiness, ect.). New technologies(e.g. Banking, Scientific Thought, ect) would increase the effect that the same amount of resources have, perhaps with a temporary decrease to simulate improving the current facilities. This would allow more realistic cities, instead of cities that do everything, you would have a science city, with alot of research, a industrial city with a high production, ect. It would also be easier to manage [Blue Moose]

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• I dont like multi-boosting improvements which boost both energy AND research, or both research AND happiness. Keep things simple.
Part of the fun in building city-improvements in CIV-2 was that i always had an exact overview what each and every improvement added to the overall picture. If we start to mess things up with “multiple-“ and “multi-boost” city-improvements, that exact overview easily gets lost. [Ralph]

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• Population growth is affected not only by available food, but also by birth rates and death rates. Thus, there should be improvements that reflect this. At the least, things such as the Aqueduct, Drug Store/Pharmacy, and Hospital in CtP should have a large effect on maximum city size, an effect that could be generated by having them result in increased food (paradoxical in that more old people would eat *more* food, but it is as close a representation as we can get). [wheathin]

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• allow upgrades, with the existing improvement counting for 50% of the cost of the new improvement. [Wheathin]

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• a. decreasing costs for improvements - as the game progresses, while established cities have much higher production levels, newly founded cities take forever to get up to speed. If the costs dropped each era, (maybe with a multiplier, and each imp has an "era" variable) it'd be easierfor your cities founded in the 1800's (like most of America) to be worthwhile before 2100.

b. Rollover on the build queue - production that's leftover is applied to the next item built... important with:

c. Allow multiple builds in one turn - so these cheap but needed imps can be finished quickly.

d. "Packages" of cheap imps for later in the game, all built one after another. (In effect, readymade queues of items) Thus, by the modern era, an "ancient package" might include Granary, Marketplace, Church, Courthouse, Colisseum, Aqueduct, Sewer, Library, Public School, and Barracks. By selecting this single "package item" in the build queue, a newly founded city could build all the ancient imps in 2-4 short turns, thus saving a player lots of needless clicks and micromanagement, and time. [Wheathin]

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• I would like to be able to contract a CORPORATION to build my units, let the religions build their places of worship and leave me the task of keeping the city safe, clean and happy [CormacMacArt]

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• I would like to see more governance type improvements, and less general type [NotLikeTea]

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• As governer, we should be building the millitary structures (city walls, baraks, etc), public services (grainaries, aquaducts, etc) and that's pretty well it. Other improvements should be controled only second hand, by influencing religions, city planners, etc. [NotLikeTea]

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• Stationary long range units as a land improvement would be cool: a unit that fire automatically when hostile units approaches.
[Freddz]

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List of new purposes / names for old improvements

• Superhighways ==> Shopping Mall / Mall / Downtown / Commercial Centre [VaderTwo]
• use the highways as an option in the roads/terraforming area instead [VaderTwo]
• I'm in favour of retaining all CivII structures, though possibly in a somewhat modified state [Shining1]
• Granary should be made obsolete by some tech and they can all(or some) be upgraded to something more modern. [Depp]
# In addition: Change the graphics for the granary at higher techs. [HarryKattz]
• citywalls should limit city size to 6 or something [Depp]
# in addition: increase maintenance costs for city walls by 1 gold for every three population over 12. This would represent the drag on distribution caused by bottleneck gates and the expense of letting out the seams as the city grows. [HarryKattz]

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List of people involved with this thread

posted May 20, 1999 14:50                

[lab = +100% ... lab*2 = +180% ... lab*3 = +%230% .. max build of "n".. which is set in a modifiable parameter file]

......
I *love* your idea of a constantly modified summary. Also be sure to expand your list of improvements to include the SMAC improvements [space stations, etc.]. And you might need some way to indicate how the function of the improvement might change.

posted May 20, 1999 15:39                

That city improvements that effect science be dedicated to a technology category and the benefit gained through that improvement can only be applied to that category (or could be changed with a penalty.)

posted May 20, 1999 16:08             

Look at the technology thread, it also touches on those topics.

posted May 20, 1999 16:29                

Nix the Power Plant. Substitute a City Generator that comes along with Electrification or Electric Power, whatever it ends up being called.

Make sure that all improvements that boost production are cumulative. That's one of a few tiny areas in which Call to Power has an advantage over Civ II.

Call to Power has some worthwhile Improvement ideas. I'd keep:

Theater
City Clock
Hospital
Movie Palace (call it Cinema)
Drug Store (call it Pharmacy instead)
Television
Security Monitor (some cities are already building these downtown)
Fusion Plant

posted May 20, 1999 17:01                

If any of you have a good idea for updating the 'master-posting' and order the right info in there, please tell me.

Tell me as well when you think I did something wrong in it.

CyberShy

posted May 20, 1999 17:42                

Base Support Structures... a new city improvement

This Improvement includes ALL of the CRITICAL structures of PAST ages (Ancient, Bronze, Iron, ect.) under a single name and structure.

This would include stuff like: Granaries, Aqueducts, Markets, ect. But NOT barracks and other more specailized or optional structures.

This structure will give all the advantages of included buildings (and replaces those buildings), but at reduced upkeep cost

This structure will AUTO upgrade when you enter a new AGE if you have built all included structures of the previous age. Otherwise you may pay for the diffrence, or build the upgrade (labor required depends on how many structures have been completed).

This structure builds much faster than if building all of the componets. And you can RUSH BUY at no penalty.

The result is, that in the middle and especially the late game, you don't have to fumble about building arhaic structures. You will be able to found and develop a thriving city, without the need for that city to have been there from the beginning. Personally I hate building Granaries in the 1900's.

You MUST still build structures of your CURRENT AGE or you WILL fall behind. Waiting for the AGE to evolve would also be a poor tactic.

posted May 20, 1999 18:39                

I just added you to the Thread Masters' List. Can you check to make sure it's right? Also, Welcome Aboard!

------------------
CIV3 DEVELOPMENT LIST COORDINATOR

posted May 21, 1999 02:58                

There seems to be some general agreement with the suggestion that some unit chassis and weapons require improvements to be built before the unit itself can be done.

In this case, extra city improvements will be needed in order to produce units - about 15 - 20 new structures need to be designed (spanning the whole of history, though).

Aside from that, I'm in favour of retaining all CivII structures, though possibly in a somewhat modified state.

posted May 21, 1999 16:37                

"Muslim nations will never be allowed to build churches."

What the? Ever heard of a mosque? Are you trying to say that Islam is less able to content their followers than other cultures? I'm not Islamic, but if I was, I'd be offended. Besides, what place does this have in a civilization game? The "cathedral" represents high religion in any culture and in any religion. There are no pre-set cultures and religions in Civ, that is all kept in the background. The other things are horribly sterotypical as well. The one thing I agree with is communism disabling churches, and I would only halve their effect myself (in return for much easier police control over people), because that's not a culture thing, that's a government thing.

"In addition to this idea: In big cities, more than one improvement of one type should be needed. I don't think there was only one Granary in ancient Rome."

Reminds me of a really bad game called Destiny. These things are abstractions. Just as a "chariot" doesn't represent one chariot, but rather an army, a granary does not represent just one granary. The "second level" is the job of things like acqueducts and sewer systems. By the way, in Destiny, you had to keep going back and building tons of old structures over and over again. No fun.

"City improvements must become inactive when technology gets better. (like wonders don't work forever) and be replaced with others. CyberShy"

I disagree with this. They may change their roles, but they should not become obsolete, except in perhaps a few rare cases.

Also, for us non-CTPers, what the devil do all those other improvements do? I'd be most impressed as to why I should be building a "City Clock" when you'd think that would go on at a far less micromanaging level.

I suggest you check out the technology forum as well. My suggestion is that you take the basic library (or equivalent), and you dedicate it to any of the 5 disciplines when it's built (I have a category system where all science is divided into 5 categories). When you build your university, you add another discipline to focus in. These two categories of science get special bonuses in research at the city. I’d kill the "research lab" of CivII and then add extra attributes to conventional facilities, like "Nuclear Power Plant: (Basic effect with resources.) Speeds physics research in city, if it has a library or university dedicated to it, by 50%. Or "Stock Market: (basic money effect). Increases economics research by 50%, if city is dedicated to that discipline." "Capitol: Government center, blah blah. Increases philosophy research by 100% in city." "Hospital: Increases population growth by 15%, makes two drones content. Increases biology research in city by 25% if yada yada yada." You get the idea.

posted May 21, 1999 16:55                

A compromise would to allow cities (or require) to increase effectiveness in a few abstract aeras.
1) Food Production/Storage
2) Industry
3) Religion
4) Entertainment
5) Defence
6) Health
7) ect.

you can then chose to "Increase Industry Infrastructure"... which will give a bounus based on:
(level of industy) - (city size)) * percentage increase of all indusstry city improvements

just a thought, but I do not recomend it... it's hard enough to make great cities as it is, and the idea of building city improvements is an abstract for instituing new tech within that city.

posted May 21, 1999 22:43                

I know already my suggestion isn't going to be popular here, but IMO its gotta be said.

Reduce The Number of Improvements

They just lead to ridiculous amounts of micro-management of cities.

CivI had a reasonable number of improvements, and it was still a management nightmare IMHO to "max out" a city. In Civ2 I rarely even bother any more because there's just a never-ending list of gotta-haves.

Well, anyway, I've said it. And now I can just walk away and hope the flames don't singe my back

posted May 22, 1999 11:52                

My idea: As a city grows, the player may get messages like "A private enterprise applies to build a Factory in London". You cannot take use of privately owned buildings' production, but they will give you tax income.

posted May 23, 1999 05:02                

I'd nix the "You can build it again." Idea. It really does lead to accounting and supermicromanagement. We want to have fun.

As noted, there has been several suggestions to tie military chassis types to city improvements. ala MOM. One more thing to slow down the War Monger, but Civ was a Building an Empire game first, so that isn't a bad idea. If it is tied into variable city production radius, you gain things like:

Horse Stables/Ranch: +1 Produciton Radius, permits the building of Horse Chassis units (Mounted Scout, Horse Archers, etc)

But lets keep down the supermicromanagemetn and accounting/spreadsheet game issues...

posted May 23, 1999 06:58                

Add “Doctors house” (or whatever) to the already suggested “Pharmacy” and “Hospital”. A series of three related improvements.

posted May 23, 1999 11:47                

Some comments on the discussion:

Multiple buildings: sounds very good

Like the new buildings

Something new, upgrading buildings!
Granary in 21th century???? No.
City Walls in a 2 million people city? No.

Granary should be made obsolete by some tech and they can all(or some) be upgraded to something more modern.

And citywalls should limit city size to 6 or something

posted May 23, 1999 12:54                

------------------
May reason keep you,

posted May 23, 1999 18:11                

City walls are no protection against artillery, aircraft, or missile. That's pretty close to obsolete.

As a final nail in the coffin, maybe we could ask Firaxis to increase maintenance costs for city walls by 1 gold for every three population over 12. This would represent the drag on distribution caused by bottleneck gates and the expense of letting out the seams as the city grows.

posted May 23, 1999 18:13                

There are still at least two large granaries(we call them silos) here in Ft Worth.

Maybe we should ask Firaxis to change the graphics for the granary at higher techs.

Also, I'm for the Shining1's idea that certain improvements are needed to build certain kinds of units. Like stables for mounted units, airports for planes, etc.

posted May 23, 1999 18:17                

City land set aside for use by the public.

Benefit: Makes one addional citizen content.
Requires: Sanitation (Maybe a new advance, something like Modern Fertilizer)
Cost: 60 shields
Maint: 1 gold

Helps happiness in a pinch. Frees up a citizen for science or tax.
Requiring something early, like Sanitation could cause a balance problem.

posted May 23, 1999 18:21                

Large parks like Disney World or Six Flags.

Benefit: Two citizens happy. One additional gold for every 4 population. Plus 5 gold for every wonder in city(tourism).
Requires: Mass Media advance(if Mass Media advance not in game then Electronics)
Cost: 240 shields
Maint: 4 gold

posted May 23, 1999 18:23                

In my opinion, this should stay over in CTP. Before clocks, roosters would wake people up. Just seems so trivial.
I think we should ask Firaxis to ignore it.

posted May 23, 1999 18:26                

In my opinion, television should be a tech advance(Mass Media) instead of an improvement. Televisions are household commodity items. The real city improvement involved would be the transmitter.

posted May 23, 1999 18:28                

Benefit: Makes two citizens content(by distraction). With the advent of Mass Media(Electronics if Mass Media not in game) provides one additional gold for every two citizens(advertising).
Requires: Radio
Cost: 120 shields
Maint: 2 gold

posted May 23, 1999 18:32                

I would prefer the addition of a city improvement called the ISP.

So, maybe we should ask Firaxis to include a...
ISP

Benefit: Plus 20% science in city. Plus 2 science for every other city with an ISP, including cities in other civs.
Requires: Computer
Cost: 160 shields
Maint: 3 gold

posted May 23, 1999 18:33                

Chopping up the game by ages is a truely vile and pernicious idea!

If this feature is implemented, I will NOT buy CivIII!

posted May 23, 1999 19:32                

I hope you know the difference between a churge and a mosque ? A moslim country should build a mosque, where a christian country should build a church. Maybe kinda the same profits, but it's weird to build a cathedral in a moslim country.

posted May 24, 1999 06:10                

Add a few new concepts like for example the health-factor: Doctors house –Pharmacy – Hospital. Add ideas like; Granary gets obsolete – build Silo instead. But as a whole: keep things just as simple and straightforward as in CIV-2.

posted May 24, 1999 18:42                

Instead, I counter, that it is the network of all human populaces, all structures (mines. roads, barracks, factories, ect.), and how they interact that decide if a nation is to succede or fail.

Regions
Regions, by their definition, is the combined character of a geographical location. To represent this, regions must be added to CIV3.
Various methods of creating regions has been discussed in other threads. I prefer computer generated, fixed regions. These would conform to terrain and natural boundries (rivers, mountains, Ocean). Regions would also have a maxinum size.
I do not believe that fixed regions would subtract from the game, since real-life regions have remained the same thoughout history, though their names have been changed, and they have been contested.
Regions would form the primary borders of a society, contested regions would have interior borders similar to SMAC.

Habitation and Population
Before cities were constructed, people were nomadic... or semi-nomadic. This needs to be represented in CIV3. My suggestion would be to treat NOMADIC POPULATIONS as a mobile city, but not "improvable".
Eventually settlements were built, which grew into towns, which grew into cities.
I believe settlements should be reprented with evolving grapichs which expand to additional tiles as the settlement expands.

The concept of city improvements is simply an abstract for the implementaion of new technology within a city. I believe CIV gamers can handle a more realistic aproach to city development:
1) Technology implementation- When new technology which can benifit a settlement (let's say an Aqueduct) is discovered, that tech must first be implemented. This cost revenue (an alternative name for GOLD), and is based upon the size of a city (It is harder to incorporate new tech into larger, more stable cities). This expenditure reprensts the cost of materials, the cost to educate engineers, and incentives to implement the technology. Once the technology is implemented, it provides it's benefits to the settlement (in this case a reduction in negative health modifiers due to overcrowding and allowing larger cities). Technology may be implemented on a city, regional or national level to reduce micromanegement.

2) City improvement. A city has many diffrent aeras in which to improve... Housing, Industry, Economy, Recreation and so on. I suggest abstract level to each aera. Thus a city with a level 4 Indusstry typically can produdue more than one with a Level 3 Industry. Improvement require Public Works, similar to CtP. To increase in an aera, a certain number of PW must be spent. Like-wise any nessacary tech must have been implemented. (In our example above, an aqueduct will allow habitation Level 4 & 5 to be reached. If the city was at Habitation 3, it would need x amount of public works to reach 4 now that Aqueducts have been implemented.)
Settlements improve semi-automatically... they only use PW to improve a level if that aera is becoming inefficient due to # of people using it. (# of factory workers for Industry, total population for Habitation). As inefficency rises, a larger percent of available PW will be used to enhance that aera. You may also set Priority numbers to the diffrent aeras. This allows a more "hands-off" approach and highly reduced micromanement (you simply choose what percent of PW to enhance the city, priorities are optional, the computer does the rest based upon your population and workforce). As city level in these aeras increase, the settlement will expand to empty tiles, become denser or expand upwards. If you run out of room, you city will stagnate.

Workforce
Your workforce is handled on a city or regional basis, depending on your "National Goverment Level" (Independant/Regional/Federal).

Workforce determines not only what you produce/build but how your cities develop as well (A city lith Level 8 Industry due to a lot of factory workers is much different than a city with Level 8 religion due to lots of clergy. Detroit vs. the Vatican)

All other projects utilize PW, from mines to roads to Wonders(which appear on the map)

The result will be a highly graphical representation of you NATION, not just cities. Also Micromanement of city improvement is eased, to allow for more detailed workforce, supply and economy.

posted May 24, 1999 20:02                

1. I think there should be an intermediate class of things to build between improvements and wonders. Large things that would affect a whole civ, which are built in only one city, but which each civ could build (i.e. each civ could build a space program, or each could build a truly massive hydro dam, etc...)

2. New improvements:
Money: Medieval Fairs
Production: forge, textile mill/loom
Overcrowding: suburbs, highways,
Science: public schools
happiness: parks, circus
Food: see below; also a futuristic Gene Bank for both better genetic medicine, but also a more robust and productive food supply.

3. Population growth is affected not only by available food, but also by birth rates and death rates. Thus, there should be improvements that reflect this. At the least, things such as the Aqueduct, Drug Store/Pharmacy, and Hospital in CtP should have a large effect on maximum city size, an effect that could be generated by having them result in increased food (paradoxical in that more old people would eat *more* food, but it is as close a representation as we can get).

4. Upgradable Improvements:

We want realistic ancient improvements. We want to build new imrpovements late in the game. We want to reward players who build them. But, we don't want a zillion improvements to be endlessly clicking on, because then the micromanagement is crzy, and cities founded late in the game can never be maxed out. We don't want our old improvements goign obsolete after we invested so much in them. Summary: we want a lot, but not a lot.

Answer 1: allow upgrades, with the existing improvement counting for 50% of the cost of the new improvement (or whatever).

My Answer 2: 4-part solution.

a. decreasing costs for improvements - as the game progresses, while established cities have much higher production levels, newly founded cities take forever to get up to speed. If the costs dropped each era, (maybe with a multiplier, and each imp has an "era" variable) it'd be easierfor your cities founded in the 1800's (like most of America) to be worthwhile before 2100.

b. Rollover on the build queue - production that's leftover is applied to the next item built... important with:

c. Allow multiple builds in one turn - so these cheap but needed imps can be finished quickly.

d. "Packages" of cheap imps for later in the game, all built one after another. (In effect, readymade queues of items) Thus, by the modern era, an "ancient package" might include Granary, Marketplace, Church, Courthouse, Colisseum, Aqueduct, Sewer, Library, Public School, and Barracks. By selecting this single "package item" in the build queue, a newly founded city could build all the ancient imps in 2-4 short turns, thus saving a player lots of needless clicks and micromanagement, and time.

posted May 25, 1999 08:37                

All postings above THIS one are included now in the main-thread. If you disagree with the way I've reflected your ideas, please mail me at rplomp@bart.nl

Trachmyr, your last post hasn't been included, since I feel like this are more topics that belong in other threads. mail me if you disagree.