This tech model will most likely be very close to what will be in the final game, unless someone else has a brilliant new idea. If you have any ideas, comments, or suggestions, now is the time to make them known. After we agree on the final structure of the model, the hard work of adding detail and fine tuning everything will begin. We would like as much input as possible before we start sinking a lot of work into the details. The last technology thread gave us a lot of good ideas for the model and helped us improve the system. More input and discussion will improve this system as well, so please let us know what you think.

This post is meant to be a good starting point for everyone, so I will start at the beginning. If you are familiar with the tech model, just skim through what you already know.

Justification and Background

In most tech trees, all techs are discrete units that are linked together by prerequisites. This works fine for simple games that are focused on a single topic or are not very detailed. However, Clash will be a game with great depth and complexity, and this type of system would lead to many problems. The main one is complexity. A tech tree with hundreds of techs linked together would be difficult for the player to learn and very difficult to construct. It would also be vulnerable to bugs and gameplay problems. A similar problem is one of flexibility. Such a tree is very hard to adjust. It would make tech tree creation or modification very difficult for the Clash team and anyone who wanted to make a scenario.

Another problem is historical accuracy. In the normal tech tree, all knowledge comes in big chunks and never improves after you get it. Your metallurgy skill is the same in 2000 BC and 2000 AD. This is unrealistic. Historically, technologies are constantly improving in a continuous fashion.

To reflect this and avoid the problems with a standard tech tree, we have created a tree that splits technologies into four layers. The bottom layer consists of Applications, which are items, improvements, or units that you can implement in your civilization. The top three layers are Technologies that grow continuously as your civ advances.

This solves the problems of complexity and flexibility that plague most tech trees. Rather than making a complex chain of applications, a thing is simply assigned a requirement of some percentage of one or more Technologies. This makes it amazingly easy to modify the tech tree and add units. Now, we can allow other model leaders to give us a list of applications that they want and easily put those technologies in the tree. With the normal tech tree type, we would have to force other people to use the technologies that we put in at the beginning. The current tech tree model is flexible enough to be easily changed by the Clash team and any scenario designer.

Description of the System

Technologies are broad, contiguous areas of knowledge or skill that are defined as percentages from zero to a hundred. Zero percent represents no knowledge, 1% represents minimal knowledge, and 100% represents the highest level of publicly known application as of January 1, 2000. The scale is logarithmic, with each 10% increase representing approximately a doubling in knowledge or skill. This might not be entirely accurate, but it works for now and we can rescale it later.

There are three layers of these Technologies. We have names for the levels, but to avoid confusion I will refer to them as Level 1, 2, and 3.

Level 1 technologies are broad, theoretical fields of knowledge like Physics or Biology. Level 1 technologies determine how fast other technologies will advance. This will be described in detail later.

Level 2 technologies are more focused and practical areas of study, usually within the Level 1 techs. They include things like Mechanics, Electromagnetics, and Optics under the Physics tech and Anatomy, Botany, and Ecology under the Biology tech. The level of these technologies determine the efficiency at which your civ can do certain things, as well as determining the rate of advancement of Level 3 technologies.

Level 3 technologies are your civ's knowledge and skill in some specific area of practical application of knowledge. A certain level of a Level 1 or 2 tech might be required to obtain this technology. Examples of these techs are Shipbuilding or Robotics. Specific applications become available when some percentage of one or more Level 3 technologies have been reached.

Note that Level 3 technologies like Shipbuilding are not just sets of theories and equations. The techs are also meant to represent experimentation, trials, prototypes, and the study of potential applications. So by Shipbuilding 50% your people have already drawn plans for a new type of ship, built a prototype of that device, and figured out how to operate it and what it weould be good for. At that point you get the message that some new thing is available. The practical part of things is already included in all of the techs. They are not just academic disciplines; they also represent the completed and tested plans for doing things.

Gaining Technology

Basic technology levels are increased by spending Research Points, or RP's. These are generated by your civ, and the amount your civilization generates should grow constantly as your population and economy expand. The pool of your RP's represents the entire creative capacity of your civilization, not just people working under government supervision. Any farmer, craftsman, engineer, or philosopher is a potential source of RP's. You also get RP's from any contact with other civilizations. Trade is one of the biggest RP generators, but battle, espionage, and the mere presence of another civ close by will generate RP's to simulate the diffusion of knowledge and technology. Of course, you can also generate RP's by investing in research. In addition to this, you get a small amount of RP's every time you construct something.

You do not control how most RP's are spent. Any 'free' RP will be spent automatically to advance the technology that is most related to the production source. For example, RP's generated automatically by an agricultural province would be spent on Biology, Breeding, and Botany while RP's that you get by building a string of fortifications would be spent on Masonry and Architecture.

The technologies that you will be able to most directly influence will be the Level 3 techs. Until you get close to the early modern era, your government will not be able to influence the more theoretical Level 1 and 2 techs because their connection to practical applications are not well understood. Any research you order will be into some Level 3 tech like Siege Weaponry. You can say, "Make better siege weapons for our army" but until you know more about how science works you will not be able to say, "Learn about Physics."

As you grow more advanced, you will gain the ability to put money into Level 2 techs. Later, you will be able to support the development of Level 1 techs as well.

Because the rate of knowledge growth is exponential and the rate of RP production is also close to exponential, the number of RP's spent for an increase in percentage must also grow exponentially. Also, you must spend RP's to keep your tech levels from falling. This represents the effort put into teaching the people your civ's scientific, cultural, and technical knowledge. The amount of effort you put into education is proportional to the amount you know, so you have to spend RP's based on the level of the tech.

So we have a differential equation of the form

dP=(RP-a((bP)^n))(c/(eP)^m)

where a, b, c, e, n, and m are constants, P is the current percentage, dP is the change in that percentage every turn, and RP is the amount of RP's spent on the tech in one turn.

If RP is zero, the tech declines at a rate proportional to the level of the tech. If RP=xP, there is no growth. You can see that the input required to keep the tech level constant increases as the tech does, to simulate the greater amount of teaching required. In between these two, the decline is less rapid but still present. If the first term is greater than zero, then the tech rises, but the rate of the rise slows as the tech level increases.

The previous equation does not take into account the effect of tech synergy. All fields of knowledge are related, so knowing more about Tech A will allow your research into Tech B to be more effective. The change in the percentage increase of Tech B is multiplied by some factor that depends on the level of tech A. The nominal equation for this is

dPf=dP*C*2^(A/10)

where dPf is the final increase of Tech B, dP is the number obtained from the first equation, C is a constant, and A is the percentage of Tech A. Obviously dP will have to be very small, so it will be very hard to raise the tech if A is low.

Tech A is known as either a Vital Tech or a Helper Tech, depending on the magnitude of C. A Helper Tech gives a smaller increase in tech gain, while it is almost impossible to raise a tech without a decent level of a Vital Tech.

Vital Techs are almost always techs that are one level above the tech being influenced. Vital Techs are technologies that are extremely important to the development and understanding of the tech in question. The dependant tech is usually a sub-field of the Vital Tech. For Example, Anatomy would have Biology as a Vital Tech. A Helper Tech can be any other tech that would aid the knowledge or study of the tech. Optics would be one Helper Tech for Anatomy.

Applications

Applications have percent requirements in one or more technologies, usually Level 3 technologies. When that percentage is reached, the application becomes available to your civ.

Note that gaining the requirements for the application does not necessarily mean that you can use it instantly. Any item must be made using the productive capacity of your civ, and social applications like Public Education can only be implemented if your population agrees to it, based on the social model.

The effectiveness of applications depends on the level of the relevant Level 3 technology. The tentative equation for this Application Factor is

E=.1(T1-R1+10) * .1(T2-R2+10) . . .

where E is the effectiveness of the application, R is the percentage requirement for the application, and T is the current percentage of the requirement technology.

When the device is acquired by normal research, all T values will equal the R values and E will be one. As the T values increase, E will also increase. This simulates the constant improvement of applications as basic technical knowledge increases.

To explore this equation and its consequences in detail, consider an application with only one tech requirement. Assume that the Level 3 tech Firearms is the only requirement for the Arquebusiers unit, and that this particular application needs Firearms 20%. This is not necessarily accurate or final; it is just an example.

When you reach Firearms 20%, you get the application and can now make Arquebusiers. T=R, so E=1. The unit is at its base power.

Now suppose that you increase your knowledge to Firearms 25%. This means that your firearms knowledge is about 141% of what it was at Firearms 20% when you developed the Arquebus. E is now 1.5, or 150% of what it was earlier. Your Arquebusiers are 1.5 times as good as they were when you first made them. An increase in technology has resulted in a slightly greater increase in application effectiveness. This is reasonable because there is a lot of room for improvement when something is first developed.

When Firearms reaches 30%, your knowledge of Firearms has doubled and so has the effectiveness of your Arquebusiers.

As you continue to increase your tech, you get diminishing returns on that application. This is also reasonable, because as things get better it is hader to improve that thing. At Firearms 40% your knowledge has quadruled, but the Arquebusier effectiveness in only three times its original value. At this point there will usually be a new application with a base effectiveness of four times the effectiveness of the Arquebusiers.

This new application will quickly make Arquebusiers obsolete, even though both of are increasing effectiveness based on a simple formula. At invention, there is not a very large effectiveness gap. The new thing is at 4 times original Arquebusier power, while Arquebusiers are at 3 times the original power. But as tech rises, the difference quickly becomes large. At Firearms 45%, the Arquebusiers are at 3.5 times their original power. The new unit, however, is at 1.5 times its initial value, or 6 times original Arquebusier power. Arquebusiers are now totally outclassed, even though the starting disparity was not that great.

Application Loss

The same application factor can be used to easily and realistically model the loss of ability due to a decline in technology. If you allow technology levels to fall, then applications based on that technology will become less effective. People now lack the technical knowledge to make and repair the application, so it cannot be used as well.

At first, the loss is not a big disaster. If your Firearms tech drops to 37%, or three percent below the new unit's requirement of 40%, then the Application factor is at 0.7 and the new unit is seven tenths as powerful as it was when it was invented. At this point, this unit is about as effective as your Arquebusiers, so there is no real calamity.

But as the tech continues to fall, the effects will become severe. At 35% it is at half power, at 33% it is at a third of its original power, at 32% it is one fifth original power, and at 31% it is utterly useless at one tenth of original power. At 30% Firearms technology, the Application Factor is at zero and all units disappear. The application is lost entirely and it will have to be rediscovered. This is reasonable because at this point you have half the knowledge you originally needed to make the thing. The science behind the operation of the thing is now completely foreign to you.

Sometime during this decline period, you lose the ability to make new copies of the thing and can only maintain the existing applications. The current consensus is that this cutoff point be 5% below the requirement point, when the application factor is 0.5

Invention

There is some debate about the acquisition of the applications. My recommendation, which will be used in Demo 5, is that all applications are recieved exactly at the requirement percentage without any deviation. I see this as the best option because it is simple and fair.

Other people prefer that the application be recieved randomly, with the probability of invention being something like a bell curve centered on some percentage before the requirement percentage. The width of this curve would be based on social factors, with a high chance early invention for societies that value freedom and inventiveness.

While more realistic and accurate, I think that this is needlessly complex and would lead to several gameplay problems. Any randomness can be supplied by the randomness in the generation of RP's. Occaisionally, someone will raise the Level 3 technology a few points, and this jump in tech can cause the early acquisition of an application.

This topic has been discussed extensively. The debate is in the Demo 5 Tech Tree thread and the second page of the Technology System E-Mail Archive thread.

Cultural Uniqueness

Another new concept in the tech model is the idea of a "Template Tech." This is actually a Level 3 technology or an application that changes its name, description, and icon based on the civ's culture. "Culture" in this context more closely means, "Artistic and Religious preference." It is chosen at the beginning of the game by the player and does not change. It has nothing to do with culture as defined by the social model. For example, the template tech "House of Worship" would be a cathedral for European cultures, a mosque for Arab cultures, a pagoda for Oriental cultures, and a temple for Native American cultures. The house of worship does exactly the same thing for all people and has exactly the same prerequisites, but it looks different so we don't have a situation like the one in Civ 2 where the Japanese or Zulu have to build a cathedral to keep people happy.

The player never sees the generic name. It is simply a coding description. They would simply see a message like, "We can now build cathedrals" or "We can now build mosques."

In the basic game, we should keep all things that come from template techs identical. That way, no race of people will have any kind of advantage. But we should give scenario designers the option of changing the things that come from template techs. For example, someone who made a 20th century scenario might want a template tech called, "World War 2 fighter." If you played Americans this would give you a P-51, if you played Japanese this would give you a Zero, etc. As any military history buff knows, these planes were not identical. The scenario designer might want to give them slightly different statistics to reflect history. The ability to make these template techs lead to different things based on the civ would be a powerful design tool.

The Tech Tree

This is not meant to be the complete and final list. It is meant to illustrate the structure and stimulate discussion. Most helper techs and Level 3 Technologies have not been included. We plan on adding Applications at the request of the other model leaders.

People familiar with the old tech tree will note that some technologies have vanished. In most cases this was intentional. Many previous technologies like Resource Gathering were amalgamations of many diverse skills. In this model, these techs have been split into several Level 2 and 3 techs.

Note that Mathematics is a helper tech for every technical discipline while Art is a helper tech for all social technologies.

These Level 1 techs are vital techs for all level 2 techs listed after them. The format is
Level 1 Technology---Dependant Level 2 Technologies

Art---Literature, Music, Theatre, Visual Arts

Biology---Anatomy, Botany, Breeding/Genetics, Ecology

Chemistry---Ceramics, Explosives, Fuels, Metallurgy, Synthetics

Communication---Diplomacy, Propaganda

Construction---Architecture, Roads, Mechanical Engineering

Earth Sciences---Geology, Mapping and Surveying, Navigation, Meteorology, Mining

Government and Management---Government, Industrial Engineering, Law, Management

Mathematics

Military Operations---Air Tactics, Combined Arms, Covert Operations, Infantry Tactics, Logistics, Mobile Tactics

Physics---Electronics, Fluid Dynamics, Magnetism, Mechanics, Nuclear Physics, Optics

Social Sciences---Philosophy, Psychology, Religion

Other Level 2 Techs
These techs are dependant on multiple Level 1 techs or other Level 2 techs. They also include seperate fields that are not broad enough to be Level 1 techs. The format is
Level 2 Tech---Vital Techs

Agriculture---Biology, Earth Sciences
Astronomy---None
Civil Engineering---Construction, Government and Management
Combat Engineering---Construction, Military Operations
Computers---Mathematics, Electronics
Economics---Mathematics, Social Sciences
Education---Communication, Social Sciences
Masonry and Cement---None
Medicine---Biology, Psychology
Textiles---None
Woodworking---None

Examples of Level 3 Techs with Requirements

Airplanes--- Fluid Dynamics 35%, Engines 50%
Artillery---Explosives 40%, Metallurgy 30%, Mechanics 30%
Cybernetics---Robotics 90%, Medicine 95%
Engines---Mechanical Engineering 40%, Metallurgy 40%, Fuels 40%
Firearms---Explosives 30%, Metallurgy 25%
Robotics---Computers 60%, Mechanical Engineering 60%
Shipbuilding---None

Examples of Applications

Bomber---Airpanes 30%
Crossbow---Mechanical Engineering 30%
Dreadnought---Shipbuilding 40%, Engines 35%, Artillery 30%
Rifle---Firearms 60%

Looks Good! I think we will quickly discover which of the mathematical details work out right, and which don't, as soon as we start putting meat on this for demo 5. I will try to come up with a suggested group of technologies and such for the economic area soon. Between things economic and military, we will give the new system a pretty good acid test.

Rodrigo:

Yes, all the links between the social aspects and research points need to be there. Lacking a firm proposal, all I can do is point you to the much earlier tech thread that discusses this. The specifics are about four pages from the top. I think for demo 5 we will just skip all this stuff, seeing as we have too much to work on anyway. However, for demo six I think we should aim for including the social aspects, and at least the government model.

Also the social advances I will be handling for the most part while Rich will be handling most of the military section. We'll share the rest.

Note: Last night I "discovered" that picric acid was used as a yellow dye for nearly 125 years before the fact that it was a high explosive was finally realised. A number of factories had gone boom in the meantime. This was apparently a completely accidental discovery about 150 years before other high explosives. If it was realised when originally made it would have been used as a new explosive, for certain.

My opinion is that the percentages should remain fixed if only for our own minds sakes while placing applications in the correct position.

some comments on tech model structure:

The only tweak I imagine could be given to the structure is on something I would could level 0 techs:
This came to me when I tried to understand the position of mathematics in the tech model. Mathematics is basically a language...some say the universal language of science (lets call them hard sciences opposing the "soft" social ones)
And what is true for mathematics and hard science, some people say is also true for a cultures language and "soft" sciences.
It can be argued that you can only get so far as your language capabilities allow you to organize and structure ideas.

What I suggest is that the tech model as two basic "level 0" techs: one for "hard sciences": mathematics, which will influence all physical sciences (earth/engeniering/biology etc.
The other level 0 tech is more controversial but should somehow be included. I would call it native language development. It should be the sum of the artistic development of the culture which reflects its ability to express it self in different and new ways.
On a second thought I even think that this Level 0 tech should influence research development rate on every other level 1 techs and even be used as a prerequesit for allmost every other tech
Mathematics and language development should also be influenced by the positive feedback of progress in specific techs, mathematics would be positively influenced mainly by the hard sicences while language development would be influenced by the soft sciences (but mainly by the arts techs).
regression of this techs sould also be a major factor in the loss of technological capability (2nd thought: education level could/sould affect a lot the language development)

By the way there is a theory saying that the starting point for human evolution into reason was its growing ability to comunicate and that new techs where acquired and developed as new forms of comunication where developed.

Some comments on natural resources related techs
Level 2: geology - geology is a natural science and as such uses knowledge from several other sciences, maybe it should be a vital tech being influenced by physics, chemistry, mapping (maybe you should see biology in the same light also)
Level 3: tectonic plates theory - requirement geology 75%, affected only by geology (under the natural sciences approach stated above). Applications - Generic resource evaluation provided as a average resource size map, seismic/volcanic risk evaluation centers with seismic/vulcanic risk maps available.

Level 3: mining - this should perhaps be stated has mining engeniering with no requirments: should be influenced by mechanical engeniering 50%, civil engeniering 50%.
Applications:
-mining infrastructure, mining eng 0% and would affect extraction rate vs investment rate
- underground mines, requirement mining eng 25% ,

Level 3: resource prospection - requirements none: development influenced only by geology. Applications - resource evaluation (it affects the degree to which the civ knows how much resources it has and can potentialy be extracted).
Geological Survey - state infrastructure that can be used by the state to make broad or specific resource oriented investments in prospection, requirements prospection 20% (it is a rather early state priority)

Level 3: Resource refinement: requirements none, influenced by geology 50%(more a sum of geology and physics and chemistry and mettalurgy...) and mechanical engeniering 50%
Applications - Refinery (resource pecific?), resource refinement 40%, this is a resource processing infrastructure (this is for fun factor, you might not be able to get the mines but you may destroy the refineries)
- Deffine resource recovery capability, nowdays we know that average bedrock has 15-25% alluminium but we are totally unable to extract this alluminium in a cost efficient way (some of this alluminium we cant get it at all) We know it is there, we can take it from the ground and deliver it to treatment facilities but we cant squeeze the juice out. Your capacity to refine/treat the ore you extract through mining should be simulated in the game.
This should can be used as a modiffier to the mining capacity of the civ and be expressed in the following way:
(ex: your "refinement level" allows you to separte 40% of all gold extracted)
mining production: 100 tons of gold extracted per year
resource produced 40 kg of gold per year
This refinement tech can be used to simulate proper resource production rates for different civs, and specially allow for a more resource dependent civ to invest in this technology so that it can explore as much of the resource he has as he can.

Rodrigo:
---
I'm wondering about how RPs are produced and the link with other models.
---
This has not yet been determined exactly. Population and trade will be the main things that determine science growth. So a big civ with contact with other civilizations will have a big growth in all sciences.

Physical science growth is also heavily influenced by your economy. The more you make and use stuff, the better you get at it. Social science growth is influenced by social factors like the amount of froodom people have.
---
FE if you have a scenario like Europe in mid-ages under a very rigid and intolerant christian church, you should expect developing new techs would be much harder.
---
This is simply not true for most techs. In Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire, there was constant and steady growth in most fields of practical technical knowledge. Farming, engineering, and manufacturing technologies were all improving. A peasant in 1500 had a much better standard of living than a poor Roman. The art in this time period was not as good, but the average people were much better off.
---
Also, what about government policies? Under a dictartorship probably less liberties the people have may impact on RP production. Finally, the economic system should also play a part. Under communism the lack of private property should decrease RP production because a normal guy isn't able to take a benefit from an invention and so people is less inclined to invent things.
---
We had planned on this.

Mark:

I don't have time now to read the old thread. I'll get beck to you on this.

LGJ:

I know that the percentages will need to be rescaled. It is just easier to work with in this format. Also, remember that all techs do not need the same effort to raise. The constants in the dP equation can be changed for each tech.

Krenske:

Good idea. Randomizing the tree slightly at the start and having that apply to everyone would be a problem-free way to add uncertainty. That should be a good starting option, but players should still have the option to keep things unchanged.

Disaster Model Techs:
Seismology
Meteorology
Volcanology (not sure if this is a true science, but I’m certain I’ve heard the term before)
Pesticides
Insecticides
Refrigeration
Waste Disposal (toxic waste and biohazard waste)
Genetic Engineering
Entomology

Disease Model Techs:
Quarantine
Vaccinations
Inoculations
Pesticides
Insecticides
Sewer Systems
Water Treatment Plants (an application / infrastructure)
Genetic Engineering
Pasteurization
Refrigeration
Entomology

Your comments are good and your observations valid. I'll consider them one at a time:

Level 0 Techs:

I didn't make it clear that Math and the arts are going to be more important than most helper techs. They will have an effect about halfway between the vital techs and a normal helper tech.

Your proposal is really a cosmetic change. The mechanics of the model actually make little distinction between the various layers, except in the way you can spend RP's on them. If we do have Level 0 techs, their definition would have to be something like:

An aspect of knowledge so fundamental that it cannot be changed by any direct action form the player.

By that definition, native language skill would be a Level 0 tech but Math would not. I don't think we really need the extra level. Level 1 already had basic, broad fields of knowledge. Anything above that would be under the social and economic models.
---
Some comments on natural resources related techs
Level 2: geology - geology is a natural science and as such uses knowledge from several other sciences, maybe it should be a vital tech being influenced by physics, chemistry, mapping (maybe you should see biology in the same light also)
---
I know this. I left out the helper techs so the list would be easier to read and understand. Once we agree on what needs to be included, we will add connections between those techs.
---
Level 3: tectonic plates theory
---
Good Job. This kind of thing is exactly what we are looking for.
---
Level 3: mining engineering
Level 3: resource prospection
---
I think you are right about mining needing to be split up. The combined Mining was an artifact from the old system. Also, mining is a practical Level 3 kind of thing.
---
Level 3: Resource refinement
---
I agree on most of your points. However, I think that the tech model is not the place to put your formulas. They should probably be in the ecom/resource model with your basic tech percent as an input. I expect that the same thing will be done for agriculture; farm output per acre is modified by a factor that is based on the agricultural tech percentages.

Also, I don't see how Geology has any impact on this. Why does a refinery manager need to know anything about he geology begind the ore that is getting hauled into the plant? He just takes it off the rail cart and runs it through the refinery. This is more of a Chemistry application.

Toubabo_Koomi:

This answers the question Krenske deleted. He asked about future techs. This is good general info, so I'll leave it.

Krenske:

We were going to try to make the basic tech tree go to about 2050 in a realistic way, based on what is currently being researched. I keep up with this as best I can, and while I can't claim to be able to predict anything, I am confident that I can research and make something that should be fairly accurate. At current rates of tech growth, this will sent most Level 1 and 2 techs to about 130%. We will probably double our knowledge three times in the next 50 years, assuming that no horrible disaster hits.

After this point, we have given LGJ the freedom to add whatever sci-fi gizmos he wants. 2050 will be the cutoff between near future and far future.

Of course, this is be based on real time, not game time.

This brings me to the issue of game difficulty. I think that the game should be quite challenging. At high difficulty levels, players should not be able to be as successful as reality until they are experienced and have played several games. Otherwise we have cyborg legions in 1855.

I gave petrography as an example, but I can also give you examples of the use of:
geophysics, geochemistry, mineralogy, cristalography etc, etc, etc.

The geology stuff is great in its detail...

However, I thought we agreed that we are supposed to be keeping the number of level 3 techs to something of order 100 so the player technology planning interface is reasonable. With 4 level 3 techs just in the mining area, we will have approaching 1000! It Just Can't Work for any reasonable interface. Also the player won't care, at least 95% of them anyway. The rule of thumb was something like 10-20 Per Model (Econ, Mil, etc.). I have a Lot of ground to cover in Econ, and we simply can't have more than one generic Mining tech at level 3.

The area where we Can have 1000 things is in level 4 applications. That's where IMO all the detail has to go. So I would propose that things like plate tectonics be handled essentially as applications that don't have to be "built". It's level would just feed directly into the prospecting effectiveness of the civ or whatever. I have an issue related to this that I need to bring up.

In working out some other things for the Econ model I have come across one problem with the Level 4 techs.Specifically the way the effectiveness works for level 4 technologies (applications) it implicitly assumes that one is handling an application like muskets that eventually becomes obsolete. For applications in the economic area, like libraries for educational infrastructure, we actually want something that improves continuously with the technological level. To fit into the current system we would need to have four or five arbitrary different kinds of libraries that became available in different points in time. I don't think anyone cares about this level of detail! It should be possible to simply have a library application that grows in effectiveness exactly at the rate that the knowledge in the helper technologies grows. So, for instance, if the "Paper and Printing" level three technology improves, the effectiveness of your libraries will automatically improve to match it on a one for one basis.

I realize that having two flavors of level four technology is confusing, and I would prefer not to do it, but I really don't see an alternative unless we want to litter level 4 with lots of improved versions of the same thing. Richard, perhaps we can make the effectiveness equation a little more general by putting in an exponent that determines how fast the application's effectiveness saturates. So for something like muskets the effectiveness would saturate fairly rapidly, whereas for libraries it would never saturate. This exponent would essentially describe the effective lifespan of a technology. This would have the added advantage allowing us to tailor how quickly an application gets to a point of diminishing returns for its improvement. Clearly some applications have much "longer legs" than others.

I agree
in a civ simulation approach the main subject of interest for the player would be something like:
primary sector - resource extraction (a.k.a mining)
if the player was really interested he would go and give proper attention to things like prospection, extraction, refinement.

E=C1(T1-R1+10) * C2(T2-R2+10) * C3(T3 . . .

where E is effectiveness of the application, T is the current tech level of a specific tech, R is the requirement of that tech, and C is a constant.

The default constant would be .1, but it can be adjusted to change obsolescence speed. An additional bonus is that not all techs have to be equally important. Some can influence the level more than others.

I didn't anticipate the library type apps that never grow old. The application effectiveness equation for them would be:

E=C1*2^(K1(T1-R1+10)) * C2*2^(K2(T2 . . .

where E is effectiveness, T is tech level, and R is the requirement. C and K are both constants.

If C was 0.5 and K was 0.1, the application would rise just as fast as the tech level. Like the other equation, the constants in this one can be altered.

However, I still like the dynamics of the linear equation that models things that go obsolete. We could simply assign one of the equations to an application, and tell the player what type it is. We simply mark it as an Obsolescence or a Growth application. Obsolescence apps increase by the linear model, while Growth apps use the exponential equation.

Early Tech Acquisition:

This wasn't covered in the post. It is possible to get things before you invent them, but your ability to use it is based on the Application Factor. This will usually be less than one, but there may be a situation where you have high levels of three tech requirements, but are deficient in one area so you can't invent a thing with four requirements. You would then be able to use that thing at a higher app factor because the three good things cancel out the thing you are bad in.

You can get apps by trading or espionage, but this cannot be abused because you can't use a thing if your tech is low and you get it anyway if your tech is high.

I have a suggestion that I think is better for handling applications of both the transient and permanent (like libraries) sort in a uniform and consistent way.

The premise is that we have a variety of helper technologies each with a strength, and an overall longevity number that indicates how fast the application gets into the strong diminishing returns regime. I'm not completely happy with my expression, but I thought I would put it up and let people comment on it. I think regardless of what we do, we just need a few simple numbers, or even strengths in words, that we can tell the player, rather than have a zillion different constants floating around. The expression I have is not really simple, but its effects will be easily explained to the player.

First of all, longevity is on a 1 to 10 scale, with one meaning that the application suffers severe diminishing returns, and 10 meaning that it suffers no diminishing returns, essentially being a persistent application like libraries. The strengths of helper/required technologies would also be on a 1 to 10 scale, with one indicating a technology that helps a little bit, and 10 being one that is virtually essential to have an effective application.

To make this a little easier to understand, first I will define the relative tech level (RTL) of the application. The RTL is just the average (weighted by strengths of helper technologies) technology level by which the application exceeds its required technologies. When all the helper technologies are at their required level the RTL equals 0%. When all the helper technologies are 10% above their required level the RTL equals 10%. For the more complicated cases we just use the weighted average as shown below. So using the same terminology as Richard (but using S for the strength) we have:
RTL = (S1*(T1-R1) + S2*(T2-R2) + ...)/(S1+S2+...)

And the whole effectiveness formula is just:
E = (1+ longevity/10) ^ (RTL/10)

So for a longevity of 10, like the library example quoted in the post above, this expression has the effectiveness growing exactly as the knowledge level in the helper technologies. For a small longevity, the effectiveness will grow only slowly with technology. This simple expression may actually grow a little bit too slowly, and we might need to add a little bit to give an effectiveness boost in the range were RTL equals 0% to 10% or so.

On early aquistition the latter (aquiring better basic techs) should and must be in there because this is how most stealing and trading is done. As to the former, if we do so we should model it similar to how we discussed with the inventor window. It shouldn't be able to be gotten unless all relevant basic techs are within 5% of the minimum standards since ur people wouldn't understand it. If it was traded, well then if u don't get to that point in say 3 years or 1 turn, whichever is longer it is considered lost since ur people have given up on understanding it. We could also model the useage of the applications similar to ur gradual loss of techs posted above.

Mark:

On the logetiity i still think there needs to be a dimishing returns even for things like libraries. Not that it should be very much, but it still should be there because just like anything else, the more u increase its potential the harder it becomes to increase it again (unless technology takes hold). Otherwise we are saying that libraries and similar things are above these basic mathmatical forulas which isn't true.
-------
Now for my next section. I am posting what I have done so far on the social advances. Right now there is only level 1 and 2 Tech levels posted. Also Social Scienses has been renamed to Humanities.

Format:
Level 1 Techs---Level 2 Techs

Arts---Literature, Music, Theater, Visual Arts

Humanities---Philosophy, Psychology, Religion
-----------
Formate:
Level 2 Techs---Level 3 Techs (Some may be shared with more tham 1 group).

Literature----Poetics, Story Telling

Music---Harmony, Instruments, Song

Theatre---Cinema, Play, Storytelling

Visual Arts---Animation, Painting, Sculpting

Philosophy---Ethics

Psychology---Analytical, Behavioral, Social

Religion---Nature Worship, Monastic, Monotheism, Polytheism
-------
This next section pertains also to the social model, but because it also pertains to the social advances i am posing it here (Mark, if u want I'll copy the section below and also paste it in the social thread).

On religion I will make some distictions. Nature Worship is not the same as poltheism for this model. The differamce lies in the structure of the religipm. Nature Worship deal with things relating SPECIFICALLY with nature, such as rain, sun, etc. This can include the abstracts of life and death. Polytheism goes beyond that and copes with man made ideas such as wealth or ideas/emotions such as love and war. Second Monotheism is as it says, a belief in a single deity. To differentiate this with some vauge religons that can be termed either mono- or polytheism, we would have the following basis:
Monotheism cannot have many signifigant "near powerful" demigods that are represntative of the main god, such as hinduism. Nor can it have powerful lesser beings that aren't gods but are considered decine beings, such as Chrsitianity with its sainthood (before any of u Jesus Freaks start blowing this away, I am well versed in many religions historically and have 2 friends that are even more so (they are experts in all but name) and they agree with me on that point. Monotheisms can have prophets, mesaihs, etc. so long as A> they aren't numerours. esp the latter an B> they are recognised by the people as represmtimg the god. These people can be worshiped, however, they can't be worshipped as gods, demigods or as seperate beings.
Monastic doesn't have any deities, but can have a ruling "force" or "Forces" without a personification.

The techs are categorised according to their vital techs. We also need percentages and applications, but it will be easy to slowly build on this, by having the applications categorised according to the general tech corresponding to (the majority of) it's requirements. Depending on what applications we come up with, we can always adjust the other levels. Note that this model at least meets the size requirements put forth by Mark.

Level 1: Fields of Knowledge

1. Society
2. Science
3. Technology
4. Military

Level 2: General Techs (22)

1. Society
1.1. Arts
1.2. Humanities
1.3. Religion
1.4. Economy
1.5. Education
1.6. Administration
1.7. Law

2. Science
2.1. Mathematics
2.2. Physics
2.3. Chemistry
2.4. Earth Sciences
2.5. Biology

3. Technology
3.1. Transportation
3.2. Engineering/Craftsmanship
3.3. Resource Processing
3.4. Land Exploitation
3.5. Construction

4. Military
4.1. Tactics
4.2. Support
4.3. Fortifications
4.4. Weapons
4.5. Unconventional warfare

Level 3: Specific Techs (96)

1.1. Art
As the civilisation evolves, the artistic skill also rises into more perfect forms, while the population is craving for more complex forms of entertainment to be kept happy.

• 1.1.1. Music.
  H: Mathematics, Physics, Engineering/Craftsmansip.
  E: +Happiness
  
• 1.1.2. Litterature.
  H: Education, Humanities, Typography/Media.
  E: +Happiness, +Literacy
  
• 1.1.3. Fine Arts.
  H: Education, Engineering/Craftsmanship.
  E: +Happiness, +Architecture
  
• 1.1.4. Acting.
  H: Humanities, Typography/Media.
  E: +Happiness, +Propaganda?
  

1.2. Humanities

• 1.2.1. Sociology.
  Predominating social conditions and class relations.
  
• 1.2.2. Psychology.
  Effects in: Diplomacy, propaganda, education, military tactics, productivity, happiness.
  
• 1.2.3. History/Archaiology.
  Prevents tech loss and helps in rediscovery. Helps administration. Helps preserving some obsolete techs in effectiveness.
  
• 1.2.4. Philosophy.
  Has a general effect in all Fields of Knowledge, especially Society and Science.
  

1.3. Religion
The following values are not directly connected with a specific religion but with society as a whole. In this field advance is relative: "loss of technology" is expected to happen many times as the religious outlook of the civilisation changes and there is no obsolesence. A certain civilisation, however advanced, can be extremely backward in one or more of the religious fields.

• 1.3.1. Morality.
  Effects in crime, corruption, diplomacy, etc.
  
• 1.3.2. Ascetism.
  It has a drastic effect in the function connecting happiness with material goods.
  
• 1.3.3. Tolerance.
  A value affecting relations between cultures, nationalism, fundamentalism, scientific liberty, the existence of taboos, etc.
  
• 1.3.4. Worship.
  A value that describes how ritualistic or iconoclastic is the religious feeling, the influence of tradition and basic beliefs about the essence of God (polytheism, monotheism, atheism - the works)
  

1.4. Economy

• 1.4.1. Trade.
  Development of mercants, trading schemes, trade infrastructure and media, etc
  
• 1.4.2. Commerce.
  Concerning economic life inside a province. Marketplaces, bazaars, stockmarkets, corporations, leasing methods, etc
  
• 1.4.3. Finance.
  Banking, investments, money-lending, subsidizing, taxes, etc
  
• 1.4.4. Marketing.
  Distribution of goods, luxury level, advertisement, economic competition, etc
  

1.5. Education

• 1.5.1. Basic Education.
  H: Humanities
  E: +Economy, +Productivity.
  
• 1.5.2. Academic Education.
  Raises the player's capability to invest directly in higher levels of knowledge.
  
• 1.5.3. Literacy.
  The overall level of education of the population. Affects whole society, increases standards for quality of life.
  
• 1.5.4. Athletism.
  H: Biology, military training.
  E: +Happiness, +Health, +Ascetism
  

1.6. Administration

• 1.6.1. Government/Institutions.
  Some forms of government are much more complicated than others and became viable only after some primitive ones became obsolete.
  
• 1.6.2. Economic Planning.
  A value representing how planned or free is the civ's economy. Just like the religious concepts, this is relative, suffers no obsolesence and "loss of technology" is commonplace whenever a more liberal policy prevails. I envisioned economic planning as technology because a system that drastically changes in this area is undergoing a period of rediscovery (vide Russia). The direction of evolution however is obvious
  
• 1.6.3. Centralisation.
  Representing how centralised or localised is the administration. One of the MAJOR values in the game, it greatly affects the control of the budget (just as economic planning), the function of provinces and bureaucracy. Works exactly like economic planning, although here the direction of evolution is not obvious. (Both techs are based in an idea of Rodrigo in the econ tread)
  
• 1.6.4. Diplomacy.
  Marks the difference between the diplomacy of Iliad (making war for a woman and validating treaties with the exchange of lavish gifts ) and the diplomacy of the State Department (no comments).
  
• 1.6.5. Propaganda.
  Evolution here provides the player with ways to control public opinion. Any propaganda method acquired is in use; if it is not used, it is lost; so this tech is demonstrating not the existence of propaganda methods, but their use. The only field where evolution is definitely NOT a good thing and one of the strongest temptations for the player.
  

1.7. Law
If Administration is hosting the advances that give power to the ruler, then Law is hosting all advances that give power to the people, to control their rulers. Advance in these fields is relative too, since laws are actually based on social contracts and not on any natural necessity. When laws are slack, they work to the advantage of the mighty against the weak.

• 1.7.1. Constitutional law.
  The means by which the people can oppose governmental imperiousness.
  
• 1.7.2. Administrative law.
  The means by which the people can oppose administrative authority and reduce corruption.
  
• 1.7.2. Civil/criminal law.
  The means by which order is preserved among the people and crime is reduced.
  

2.1. Mathematics

• 2.1.1. Geometry
  
• 2.1.2. Algebra
  
• 2.1.3. Calculus
  
• 2.1.4. Statistics
  
• 2.1.5. Astronomy
  

2.2. Physics

• 2.2.1. Mechanics
  
• 2.2.2. Optics
  
• 2.2.3. Thermodynamics
  
• 2.2.4. Fluid mechanics
  
• 2.2.5. Electromagnetism
  
• 2.2.6. Quantum/Nuclear physics
  
• 2.2.7. Astrophysics
  

2.4. Earth Sciences

• 2.4.1. Geology/Prospection
  
• 2.4.2. Geophysics
  
• 2.4.3. Geography/Topography
  
• 2.4.4. Meteorology
  

2.5. Biology

• 2.5.1. Medicine
  
• 2.5.2. Hygiene/Sanitation
  
• 2.5.3. Pharmaceutics
  
• 2.5.4. Botany
  
• 2.5.5. Zoology
  
• 2.5.6. Marine Biology
  
• 2.5.7. Ecology
  
• 2.5.8. Genetics
  

3.1. Transportation

• 3.1.1. Land transportation.
  
• 3.1.2. Seafaring/Shipping.
  
• 3.1.3. Air and Space transportation.
  

3.2. Engineering/Craftsmanship

• 3.2.01. Engines.
  Any technology or machine that has something to do with power production/consumption. An area of mechanical engineering actually.
  
• 3.2.02. Manufacturing.
  Various materials processes, machine tools, machine elements, manufacturing and assembly methods. Area of mechanical engineering. Directly related to Resource Processing.
  
• 3.2.03. Electrical engineering.
  Here goes any application of electromagnetism.
  
• 3.2.04. Typography/Media.
  Printing technologies, press, radio, television, etc
  
• 3.2.05. Communications.
  Mail, telegraphy, telephony, information networks, etc
  
• 3.2.06. Robotics.
  Including everything concerning teleguidance,automatic control and actuators of every sort.
  
• 3.2.07. Electronics.
  Every piece of electronic hardware, including computers.
  
• 3.2.08. Programming.
  Any software application that we want to include.
  
• 3.2.09. Naval engineering.
  Concerns the construction skills for all naval vessels.
  
• 3.2.10. Aerospatial engineering.
  Everything from hot air baloons to spaceships fits in here.
  
• 3.2.11. Industrial engineering.
  A very essential field, related to the organisation of production and quality control. Directly related with the productivity of labour and with the Economy and Administration techs.
  

3.3. Resource Processing
The technologic factor of the secondary sector, affecting the productive output of resources

• 3.3.1. Energy.
  Energy has always been THE major resource. Here goes any technology that has something to do with production and transportation of energy.
  
• 3.3.2. Metallurgy.
  Any technology concerning the processing of metals.
  
• 3.3.3. Woodworking/Paper/Composites.
  Concerning the productivity of resources from forestry. Wood is the first composite material that man has ever used.
  
• 3.3.4. Textiles.
  Concerning the productivity of resources from agriculture and animal breeding.
  
• 3.3.5. Tannery.
  A very important sector of the production in the antiquity. Resources from Animal Breeding.
  
• 3.3.6. Ceramics.
  From pottery and glasswork to the modern high-tech ceramics.
  
• 3.3.7. Synthetics.
  All synthetic materials, produced from the refinement of carbonhydrates: plastics, elastics, fuels, lubricants, etc.
  
• 3.3.8. Food processing.
  Pickling, drying, freezing, pasteurisation, maturing, radiation treatment, hard and soft liqoirs, tobacco, sugar, cocoa, coffee, spices, precooked and synthetic food, artificial flavors and essences...