Pre-scouting
I think there should be a bonus to scouting when you know the terrain. Maybe you could dispatch specific cartographers to take detailed records of the hexes to make combat bonuses. This could tie in with other combat systems (for example a improvement for a city might be a bunch of heavy cannons, if you had a detailed map of lands the cannons would be much more accurate, movement increase depending on the terrain (especially in mountainous terrain), and an obvious increase in trade over ocean squares. There should be different levels of mapping. Eventually it should tie in with bombing accuracy and there should be plenty of space based mapping system (like the one on the space shuttle right now). Maybe it could be a sub-menu on a sort of military menu to make things easier, for example you could finance so much money for a new map of different regions and when new techs come of age then you will have new options.

Non-land reconnaissance
It seemed to me you think of scouts as purely land-based guys on horses. What about air reconnaissance or space based reconnaissance? What about radar?

Spies
I think there should be some kind of combat advantage in having a very good infiltration of a nation for reconnaissance. Anything on that?

In territory
I think there should be a boost if the army is operating in their own nation, and a BIG boost if operating within their own city limits (sorry I don't know if I'm up to date with the specifics of the system of provinces so I'll just say my ideas in old Civ. II context, sorry).

Now about your advantages system, I really, really, really don't want randomness to give an someone a 50% advantage, maybe if it happens once every thousand years in certain battles, but 50%!!?? That's alot to give to the dice! I think we might want to make the model a little bit more complex and cut down on the randomness level, we are trying to find realistic battle outcomes

As to the advantage system. The percentages are the chance of gaining an advantage. If the chance to successfully scout the opposition is 30%, then 15% and below would give a basic advantage while 3% would give a major advantage. These advantages are not necessarily battle winners but they can influence the battle. Things like skewing terrain selection etc will effect the battles and the chances of a small ambush on the opposition will not greatly effect a battle but it will effect the enemies scouts more than ordinarily. The ability to more rapidly deploy a number of units will possibly allow a side to get more troops ready for battle in the first couple of maneuver phases. These will not effect the battle that greatly but can allow for more detailed battle resolution . (The possibility of allowing a fairly accurate newspaper style reporting of the broad battle is also available for those that want it.)

Note: it is envisaged that for many battles not in the modern period low scouting values will mean that the battles will have a lot of scouting and maneuvering preceeding the combat itself. The combat will necessarily be at short/melee range which will lead to high losses and the battle probably concluding within a day of combat being joined. So a battle in the "olden days" really translates to a short campaign inside a 10000 sq km area culminating in a fairly decisive battle.

The formula used at present are generally land-combat oriented. The hope is that this can be used for demo 5, and as it is unlikely there will be much besides land combat in it, this should not be a drawback.

Harli would like to know which formula should be used for the total scout strength. I would like to put forward a preference for the square root formula based on its simplicity.

The scout phase involves those troops that range ahead of the main force, normally only a small fraction of the entire force. If a force is outcouted the army could be forced to fight at a disadvantage. Quite often in ancient and medieval periods this lead to one side or the other withdrawing during what we call the maneuvering/deployment phases.

There are though some battles where documentation regarding the maneuvering and the scouting does exist, generally it is only recorded when it goes horribly wrong for one side. These reports then tend to be of battles where one side is well advantaged. I will describe some below.

- Ramases vs the hittites. Although the egyptians were advancing with a number of light scouting forces ahead of its main force they were deceived by the hittite scouts. The hittite scouts not only deceived the opposition but also allowed their forces to fully deploy before the opposition had found them. The result almost resulted in the destruction of the egyptians. Only great leadership saved the day.

- Battle of Agincourt - The english army of small size did have a number of small scouting cavalry groups and some information from the people. The french army relied mainly on the reports from the countryside. this allowed the english to consistantly withdraw ahead of the french until they ran so short on supplies they had to fight. The english used there scouting supperiority to choose terrain to their liking. During deployment they were also able to deploy their much smaller force faster than the opposition. The result was a battle where the british were in favourable terrain and were presented with the enemy in piecemeal fashion.

-Various mongol battles. Throughout their expansion the mongols were served by large numbers of light cavalry scouts. This allowed then almost always to outscout there opposition who at the time relied mainly on reports from the local populace or on reports from other forces already engaged. This scouting ability gave their forces advantages in combat on a regular basis. Their fluid non territorial strategic style also allowed them to refuse combat when they had no advantage. (There are several reports of encounters where the mongols and opposition were arranged ready for battle, and the mongols outnumbered their enemies, but the mongols still withdrew because they did not have any major advantage. They then fought a new battle weeks later after breaking away and managing to gain an advantage. Some of these withdrawals and continued attempts to gain advantage covered 250 Km or more.) So most reports of mongol battles are generally reports of battles on favourable terrain or partial ambushes or evasion. It was only when they ran into mamluke cavalry armies where they could not withdraw at will, that the mongols suffered heavy defeats.

Once 2 task forces meet we start a battle. The battle starts with a number of scouting phases that simulate the two sides trying to find each other and to determine their intentions etc. Both sides continue attempting to scout the opposition until they succeed at which point they begin to deploy vs the opposition. It is probable that one side will find the other first and therefore begin deploying first.

We determine if a force has scouted the oposition through a simple % based test. If the test is passed the side begins to deploy, If the test is very successful (<50% of target) then the side also gains a scouting advantage. If extremely successful (<10% of target) the side gains a major advantage.

We determine the target number using the following formula :- target number = total scout strength * generalship

Total scout strength = sqrt (Sum of element scout strengths + external scouting factors + #of elements + (# opposition elements / 2))

Element Scout strength = ((Exp + Tech feature + Comm tech) x (Mob - fortification benefit - terrain mod)) + hits

Example 1 - Mongol Horde -
6 x 7000 man units with 12 scouting elements and 84 elements in total vs a infantry army with 16 x 5000 man units with 160 elements.

The scouting elements are skilled and veteran they have no special technological equipment but they do use some special communication techniques that give them a +1 improvement. They also have Mob = 12 there are no fortifications but the terrain includes some marshes and hills giving a -2 mobility modifier, the elements have 500 men. The element scouting strength = ((7 + 0 + 1) x (12 - 0 - 2)) + 5 = 85

So the total scout strength is sqrt(85 x 12 + 84 + (160 / 2)) = 34

Assuming the general commanding is average (highly doubtful for mongols) 34 will be the target number. An advantage will be gained if the test beats 17 and a major advantage if the test beats 3.

Once the TF passes its scout test it then begins deploying and maneuvering for combat.

One thing I am recomending is to move both the land ownership and any spy factors used as external scouting factors outside of the SQRT part of the formula for total scout strength. This will increase the ability of small home armies to deploy for combat vs invaders on their own soil. (I think I meant this all along but I just rammed it into the formula as is.) This should lead to more advantages for defending forces etc.

My running example will be a napoleonic era force of 6 infantry, 2 cavalry and 3 artillery units for the french and 9 infantry, 1 cav and 2 artillery for the austrians.

Phase 1. Both sides cycle through the scouting phase until they pass their test.
Phase 2. Maneuvering. Once a side has passed its scouting test it begins to maneuver and deploy its troops vs the opposition. This is done as a further set of phases with leadership and command tests. In any one of these phases the battle could actually start. Units that are not yet deployed ready for combat have some negative modifiers apply to them. There is also the chance of light unit actions occurring between skirmishing forces.
Phase 3 Combat. Once a side is fully deployed and positioned for combat it can begin the combat. Alternatively the combat may begin earlier because of unintended clashes during maneuvering. At this point the front line units are matched vs opposition units on a 1-1 basis, if there are additional ones left over they will stack up until 2-1 is reached. If greater than 2-1 stacking occurs the outnumbered side must deploy reserve or support units to the front line. (This stacking reflects the ability of mass forces to overrun, infiltrate and flank the enemy. The stacking will be effected by the unit dispersion rating, some units will just have a larger frontage due to size and tactical doctrine.) Once the units are all matched, a round of combat is resolved. After the combat resolution various morale tests are made and some units may retreat from the front line. The combat phase repeats until one side withdraws voluntarily or involuntarily.
Phase 4. Withdrawal. A side may choose to withdraw after any maneuver or combat phase. The withdrawing forces units in reserve immeadiately retreat. The units in support make a mobility test to see if they manage to break from combat. The units in the front line make a opposed mobility test to break from combat. The opposition becomes the pursuer, the pursuer makes opposed mobility tests to remain in contact. Only organised units with firm morale may pursuit.

Now for a example. (I will not actually list every number and factor I will only give a overview.) The 2 armies begin scouting against each other. The square being a austrian possesion gives a enough benefit that the austrians out scout the french and begin deploying for battle (The austrians did gain a advantage - the terrain will skew towards their preference - close terrain, for the infantry). The french take 2 more scouting cycles to properly scout the austrian forces. In the mean time the austrians have managed to maneuver 3 units against the french. Both sides are now deploying units. In the 1st and 2nd french maneuvering phase a skirmishing action is fought between french light cavalry and some austrian cavalry. By the end of the austrians 7th maneuver phase they have managed to deploy all but 1 infantry unit, the french have deployed all but 1 artillery unit. At this point one of the tests forces the combat to start for real.
The 1st combat round is fairly inconclusive with some casualties to both sides. After the combat resolution both sides test to deploy their last unit. The french succeed, the austrians fail. A second combat round is fought and a number of austrian infantry units morale fails. The austrians stubbornly decide to remain and their last infantry shows up. The third combat round ends with more than half of the austrian units retiring and 2 french infantry retiring. The austrians decide to withdraw (The total losses are now more than the AI can sustain according to some arcane formula.). The 2 french cavalry who have been in reserve pursuit, along with 2 infantry units still with high morale. The austrians manage to seperate all their units except for 2 infantry and the artillery. A pursuit combat round is fought between just the 7 units, during which the 2 french infantry lose enough morale to no longer pursuit. The austrians also suffer a large number of losses and the artillery is captured. In the next withdrawal phase the 2 austrian infantry succeed in seperating from combat, and the battle concludes.

The timescales for the different phases is not set in concrete. They do lend themselves to being 1 day equivalents for the scouting and maneuvering and 1/3rd days for the combat. If we can set a definite scale then we could actually determine the length of time taken for the battle in its total, including the scouting and maneuvering. The Tf's would then have used up however many strategic movement "ticks" the battle time equates too.

More specifically the manouvre section is up
http://www.usq.edu.au/users/krenske/game/civ/scouting.htm http://www.usq.edu.au/users/krenske/game/civ/maneuvre.htm http://www.usq.edu.au/users/krenske/game/civ/unit.htm

Looks good so far! I just have one minor comment. Under Unit Comms Rating (Maneuvre 3.) you say "in these situations the Comms rating is doubled". This is a severe, nonlinear turn-on of an effect, and I think we need to avoid these. They lead to micromanagement and big result changes for very small input changes. So FE when a unit's dispersal goes from 9 to 10 is communications really changed by a factor of two! It should be a more gradual effect or players will learn special time-wasting tricks to exploit this big difference IMO.

The same type of thing is found in the unit model under "Rebuild supply" If an element is one tiny bit short of being destroyed there is a much cheaper price to rebuild than if that last tiny bit were also destroyed.

I will update the page with a change to that area soon.

The rebuilding cost is only at the element level in the unit model. An element is a small ~500 man combat element. It is envisaged that the rate and handling of element rebuilding be a completely automated system.

Assume that a infantry division has just been smacked about pretty badly and it has completely lost 5 infantry elements and has another down to half strength. Now while the unit remains in the front line only the damaged element can be repaired. So at most this will only ever top up the 1 damaged element of each type in the unit. If the Ai chooses to move the element to reserve then it can rebuild 1 element per period of time (approx 3 days). If the TF is not engaged in combat and the unit is in reserve it could rebuild 2 elements per period. I would like to assume that there will be some sort of pool of military replacements that can be used for these rebuilds along with a supply pool.

If a Unit is ever completely destroyed a proportion of the units manpower is assumed to join the replacement pool and the unit must be repurchased from scratch. The main point of the rebuild stats and the standing values is to properly simulate the cycling of units in combat. It will also tend to average the damage across a task force so that whole units will not be wiped out until a large psrt of the TF is reduced.

I have here first shot at a timeslicing system. Rather than refine it further, I thought I would present it and see what people think. Although I intentionally kept it somewhat simplistic, it may already be too complicated. That's one thing I would like People's input on. The thing I am really concerned about with this one is that the player won't always know whether they can move a TF to a particular square on a given turn without a substantial amount of calculation. One option of course is to just have the player try it and see if the move bounces, but that seems too cavalier. Anyway...

This system is designed so you can tell which TF does what, when and where. The result should be a rough mimicking of what would happen in actual continuous movements system, without much of the overhead involved. The basic idea is that each turn is divided into 10 ticks. Each action that a task force might undertake will have a cost in ticks, and when that cost is paid the unit will complete the action. This regimentation makes it possible to determine when reserves reach an area where combat is going to, or is likely to occur. I'll try and provide a quick example at the bottom. Note that it will occasionally be possible for experienced/hardened units to "break the rules" and squeeze in a few extra ticks per turn when the situation is sufficiently desperate.

Some of the more extreme actions take more than a turn worth of ticks. It's my intention that if orders are given, and not changed, then ticks can be saved up to achieve an action. This is true for even actions with much lower tick costs if they were "cut off" by the turn boundary. We will see how this works in practice. Additionally we need some mechanism to make sure TFs that happen to complete their movement actions on the same tick can't 'teleport' thru each other without ever covering the intervening space. This will be relatively easy to put in, we just need to decide on some specifics for implementations.

Mostly what I have so far relates to movement, although there is some other stuff. I think the system I have may already be too complicated, so ideas on how to simplify it with out losing the big effects are very welcome. All the tick costs below are additive. You just take all the relevant modifiers that apply and some them together. For each area I will list either the based tick costs or modifier, followed by a description that will hopefully clue you and is to what I'm talking about .

Basic terrain types
4 Flat (Grassland, steppe, flat desert)
6 Hills/Broken
10 Mountainous

- 1 Dirt Road
- 2 Hard Road (perhaps this bonus should only be for motorized vehicles)
+ 2 Obstructed Movement (Swamp, Jungle, Forest)
- 1 Any Type of Road through Obstructed Terrain Gives This Additional Bonus
+ 1 Cautious Advance (digging in every night, careful to always have scouts well in advance...)
+1 to +3 Artillery or other very slow movement item in TF
+1 to +4 Foraging for food (depending upon availability)
+1 to +4 Construct field fortifications (diminishing returns with more time spent)
+1 to +3 Flight Battle (normally on the low end of this)
+1 to +3 Pillage (depending on how much there is to wreck, somewhat diminishing returns)
+1 to Forever... Besiege

I will rely on the military guys to better specify especially the numbers that are given as ranges of tick costs.

All these modifiers assume movement across a square side. (At least the ones that are movement-oriented) for a diagonal move the tick cost is obtained by multiplying by 3/2 and rounding down.

Simple Examples
movement over flat land (4) with a dirt road (-1) with prepositioned supplies (+ 0) -- costs 3 ticks
movement in hilly (6), forested terrain (+ 2) while foraging (say + 2) -- costs 10 ticks

Example:

An ancient invasion. I can't come up with reasonable specifics right now because I'm under time pressure and want to post this, so I will just give a bland example for now. Let's say that a force from Carthage has invaded Roman territory. The Carthaginians, being low on food, and thinking there is no Roman army nearby, split up in order to forage more effectively. The two armies are in adjacent squares. The Roman army has been lucky enough to find out about this, and is going to attempt to attack the forces while they are divided. Let's say the Carthaginians have split evenly into the two forces, and that the Roman forces are equal in combat strength to the combined Carthaginians forces. Let's assume everything happens on Grassland with no roads and that the Romans have prepositioned supplies. We begin with the Carthaginians having split off, but having not yet forage for food. The Romans are in a square directly to the south of one of the Carthaginians TFs (on the right). We start the turn there.

Tick 1
both Carthaginians groups began to forage, they will be done at the end of tick 2
the Romans begin their movement into the Carthaginians square to the right, they will get there on tick 4
tick 2
both Carthaginians groups finish foraging, they are now set for food until the end of the turn.
Tick 3
Carthaginian group on the left begins moving into square on the right to reunite the armies, this takes 4 ticks, so they will arrive at the end of tick 6 (at this point they don't know the Romans are there) Carthaginian group to the right continues to forage waiting for the other group to return.
tick 4
Romans arrive in Carthaginian right square at the end of tick 4.
Tick 5
Square on Right Goes into Battle Mode. I think it's fair to say under these circumstances that the Romans will attempt to engage, and that the Carthaginians will attempt to delay or even withdraw in the direction of their compatriots. But the interesting point about the tick system here, is that if the battle were actually fought, we would know when the reserves would be showing up...
however, this isn't the battle module, so I'm not going to worry about what actually happens in the battle. All the tick system knows is that certain parts of the battle will take a certain length of ticks.
tick 6
at the end of tick 6 carthaginian 'left' shows up. This is either in the nick of time, or too late, depending how things have gone in the battle.

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This system is designed so you can tell which TF does what, when and where. The result should be a rough mimicking of what would happen in actual continuous movements system, without much of the overhead involved. The basic idea is that each turn is divided into 10 ticks. Each action that a task force might undertake will have a cost in ticks, and went back cost is paid the unit will complete the action. This regimentation makes it possible to determine when reserves reach an area where combat Hans, or is likely to occur. I'll try and provide a quick example at the bottom. Note that it will occasionally be possible for experienced/hardened units to "break the rules" and squeeze in a few extra ticks per turn when so ordered. Some of the more extreme actions take more than a turn worth of ticks. It's my intention that if orders are given, and not changed, then ticks can be saved up to achieve an action. This is true for even actions with much lower tick costs if they were "cutoff" by the turn boundary. We will see how this works in practice.
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Ticks I'm assuming represent time from all the discussions so therefore you shouldn't be able to save up an infinitate amount of ticks, and in fact, not too many at all. Probably 5 is the most. Another thing is that you should also do is have a 2:1 coversion ratio so that 2 unused ticks will convert only to 1 unused tick.

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Basic terrain types
4 Flat (Grassland, steppe, flat desert)
6 Hills/Broken
10 Mountainous

The tic system sounds good, though I am not clear on how long a turn is but I suppose it isn't too important.

A few things here. Way the unit sytem is set up we do have actual movment rates for the TF based on the slowest unit (artillery for ex.) this could probably be converted directly to a tic modifier for the said TF.

Second, the battle module is currently set up without defining how long it actually takes due to the semi-random nature of the system, if a general gets lucky he could move through the phases with relative ease, if not it could take many phases. What we could do is determine a conversion factor of total number of phases used and what that would be in tics.

Also FYI the big hurdle has been crossed, I mainled Kerenske the assult phase model (which is pretty big) a few days ago, hopefully he will get back to me with his thoughts on the formulas et al. And it can be posted on his site. Also I will be mailing him the last phase (withdrawl) in a day or two. So hopefully it can all be up within the next week.

A military turn is Always 1 mo. Remember the long agonizing discussion? That makes a tick always three days...

Yes I did receive your Email, Harli, Guess what I only opened it today! Why ? I just spent 4 days in bed recovering from an alergic reaction to some immunisation shots that I needed for an upcoming trip to africa. I will try to get the pages put together and posted somepoint today or tomorrow.

Yours

A special moral case could provide a slight benefit to the movement, especially when moving over a short area. Maybe we could give the player a "free" forced march when, say, your going towards your final assault on the capital city after 5 years of war. Or the Carthage army troops could be motivated to save their comrades and move very fast without complaining about how their tired.
Or even a huge win could ad just a little spring in the unit's step.

I think the idea on forced marches should be a little bit more complex though, here are some different speeds:

comfortable (+2) This would be useful for a army that has just had an extreme amount of action and is not presently needed but has to be moved. This would allow them to move slower and rest longer, this would boost overall troop Moral (as long as they aren't doing this while there's a major battle that they should be at) and increase their health (I don't think there is a link between the disease model and the mil model, there should be though just look at W.W.I and the Flu). This might not be needed, thoughts?

Cautious advance (+1 or +2) obvious, but there could be different amounts, for example you could send you troops and set them for +2 when you know almost for certain they will be attacked yet you don't know where and your own scouting abilities are lacking, this would allow your force to respond very quickly, but doing this for prolonged amounts of time may lower moral as troops become frustrated always being on the highest alert.

Regular (+0) obvious

Accelerated (-1) less sleep, a little quicker pace, minor moral change unless overdone, lower readiness and lower scouting ability,

High acceleration (-2) when in crisis, only really feasible if going a place for a reason, very bad for moral when used for long amounts of time, disease can be spread for long amounts of time, extremely susceptible to ambushes and some types of guerilla warfare, easy to pick up, lower combat effectiveness when attacking directly after the march

Extreme acceleration (-3) absolute sprint, absolutely impossible for more then a certain amount of time, everything that happens with high execration only doubled, only possible when troops have some kind of reason (or are extremely loyal)

I have two problems with your proposal. The first is a detail... with your proposed modifications we could end up with movement that takes zero ticks. That would be just plain silly.

My second issue is more complex. If all these different things really make a big difference, then people will want to micromanage them. If they don't make a big difference, then what's the point? So in either case I prefer the way we had it before that occasionally you can give a little boost to your speed by adding a tick or two. But otherwise there might only be the distinctions between strategic movement on your own/friendly territory. And the military guys didn't even really like that distinction.

First off would it be a good idea for there to be comanders for units along with comanders for TFs? There could be a col. somebody who effects the morale along with adding (or subtracting) combat ability. Though in realistic terms it would only add a Tactical advantage such advantages can change the course of a battle. (look at Gettysburg) any thoughts?

I don't believe there is anything in the scout model for actual combat detectibility, or stealth. What I mean is simply not being able to find small forces because of their passive actions (like absorbing radar) rather then active actions (like destroying the radar towers). Though stealth is usually not thought of when ground units are discussed they are extremely important for modern goverments who want to keep their operations rather quiet, this would create an advantage in having a smaller force. Of course stealth isn't only important in psuedo-Spec-Ops operations (Army Rangers rather then delta force) but in any combat type.

Their is nothing truly stopping Leaders being takeninto account at the individual unit level. The reason we haven't is that it appears to be a good way of interfacing with the Character model. It is assumed that the number of available characters will not be greater than 100 or so. (?) Having 1 per unit may not fit that model.

Of course the option is there to have the Command staff of the Unit modelled as various values with small random changes over time (representing the changeover of staff).