I won't repeat everything that's posted on the Web Site, so why not go there and see for yourself??

(NOTE: The old web site link has been updated to reflect the move over to Apolyton)

Looks Great!

You guys have done a Lot of work, and it shows.

The design for each sub-page is really good, and makes getting a quick impression of a few areas pretty easy.

Link to current discussion on forum is really good. Sometimes ther'll be several needed IMO.

One quick note...

I tried the site with Netscape 4.06 and couldn't get the "site map" frame to the left to appear. It was just a blank wallpaper. And to add insult to injury the main page has Two Adds!

It does work fine with IE5.

Everyone in charge of an area:

As Kull said on the site, we need Executive summaries of each area for people who don't want to read 10 pages! (most people IMO ) At the top of the bit for each model it'd be a one or two paragraph description of the Big Ideas of the model/area. Alternatively you could use 5-10 bullet points. (Do we need a standard here?) After the Exec summary maybe an intro thats one to two pages? We need to figure out exactly how to get our message across in the best way.

1. Ermm.. Could we do without frames? It is very easy to do the same layout using tables and we get rid of the frames which are considered by many to be *not very good style*
You have a good point there about not having much graphics -- now, this is actually a *very* good point. It would allow to view the page with as many browsers as possible -- even the text only ones. (Like lynx -- many unix people use it. I use it occasionally) And then, having frames kills this advantage since not so many browsers out there support frames. Lynx doesn't.

We aim to make clash an inter platform project -- so we better make web site "interbrowserable" as well.

2. About the layout on the left. It would probably be good to make it "double-level". Meaning the following: to have a top level structure outlined first:

- Main
- Downloads
- Models
- Screenshots

etc,
and then below we can expand on it, providing opportunity for "fine-choosing" from the main page:

...
- Main
**** news
**** project synopsis

- Model
**** diplomacy
**** military

etc.

With this layout we will have to have additional pages that will be shown when a person chooses top-level links ("main", "models" etc) that will describe the contents a bit and provide the same links as in the corresponding "expanded" section below on the left.

I hope this is understandable

3. Minor comments.

-- should have a "status" section
-- links that lead off the clash site should be opened in the new window (well, this is definetely optional but worth discussing)

Also i have much to say about the improvements that could be made on sub-pages, but i wonder if you gonna change them pretty soon anyways. If you don't, i'll post my thoughts.

Thanks,

I got the same problem with the site like Mark. I use Netscape 4.6 . I think in long term we need to support minimum the two mainstream browser: IE and Netscape.

2) Now for the frame not working with Netscape; I don't know really why it dose not work.

Thanks,

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dominic on 10-31-1999 01:53 PM
1) In the regards to the frame. Kull and myself have thought long and hard on that question. He had a very good idea. That if go to a site, without frames, you can leave vary easily. With the frame you have to stick with the web site. This can of course be easily changed. I think it would go against Kull's better judgment.

2) Now for the frame not working with Netscape; I don't know really why it dose not work.

---

• Now, i'll tell you why it doesn't work. Look at the source of clash_list.html very carefully... YOU ARE MISSING A CLOSING </TABLE> TAG, that's why it doesn't work! Insert one after the line
  <tr>

  <td align="center" width="117">

  and before the start of the script at the very end. Also it is a good practice to put closing </HTML> tag in the end of the document. You know.. just to respect standards.. Because there are GOOD browsers that somehow conform to them and don't automatically suppose anything about what you meant.. like ie does for instance.. (which is not necesserily a good thing)

  Now i don't know whether it's M$ frontPage or what... but if it is -- take a good advice - throw it in garbage along with windoze and get the work done in some good old text editor...

• About the frames.
  First of all, it's not hard at all to get out of such a site. Just do "open the link in the new window". I do it all the time, don't know about others..
  Second, "tabled" sites look better. Virtually all big corporations have tabled layout.. Ah.. I guess i can't convince you of that anyways.. It's just my experience and general ideas of web design.. Even this: frames may look good.. but that scrolling bar -- it destroys the beauty of the whole design solution you have there.. i mean, the colors and pics. It is made cool, but - my opinion - tables would make it better...
  

-- Anton.

One more thing...

Guys, REMOVE THAT UGLY <BLINK> thing from the news section!!!

Read some guidelines for a good web design - it says everywhere - DON'T USE BLINK!

The reason is simple -- it takes 80% of your attention so you can't see anything else on the page.
Now, it doesn't show in ie, but after i corrected the clash_list and loaded it in Netscape, it is perfectly there...

Also, you will probably need to do some more script magic to get rid of the ad on the left in Netscape.. but if the site will be hosted on apolyton, that doesn't really needed i guess..

Thanks for telling me Anton. I'll try to fit that in. I have mainly been working hard on the non frame part of the site.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dominic on 10-31-1999 01:53 PM
1) In the regards to the frame. Kull and myself have thought long and hard on that question. He had a very good idea. That if go to a site, without frames, you can leave vary easily. With the frame you have to stick with the web site. This can of course be easily changed. I think it would go against Kull's better judgment.
Dom

---

Umm don't you see anything wrong with that? That is simply immoral. For that reason alone the frames should be removed. People should be able to come and go as they please, that is what people expect. Sure they might stay a little longer on their first trip but if they find it hard to leave then they will not come back.

OK. Let's clear something up. My partiality toward frames is not part of some evil, Machiavellian plot to "trap" helpless surfers within the web of the Clash Site. There is ONLY one reason: Making it easy for people to move around within the Clash World.

You'll note I use the term "World" instead of "Web Site". It's NOT an accident. Although many important Clash events will be chronicled by and hosted within the Clash Web Site, it's not the only Clash thing happening out there. We have the Apolyton Forums, member sites, and many related topics. ALL of these exist elsewhere on the web. If you use the Web Index frame as it's intended, you can do ONE-CLICK hopping from a Model description, to a related thread on the Apolyton Clash forum, to Mark Everson's site, to the Java download page, back to Clash Home, etc. etc. Maybe it's just me, but I LOVE being able to do that! I find it to be extremely user friendly. (Down off my "frame" soap box.)

Aw, I was hoping Somebody had an Evil Plot going... I can never seem to get organized enough to pull off My evil plots . Agree with your approach.

Colon:

Thanks for the moral support, but next time just Send Money . When you get a chance, please give us some constructive criticism on our game models...

Glak:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kull on 11-06-1999 02:23 PM
Frames:

<snip>

We have the Apolyton Forums, member sites, and many related topics. ALL of these exist elsewhere on the web. If you use the Web Index frame as it's intended, you can do ONE-CLICK hopping from a Model description, to a related thread on the Apolyton Clash forum, to Mark Everson's site, to the Java download page, back to Clash Home, etc. etc. Maybe it's just me, but I LOVE being able to do that! I find it to be extremely user friendly. (Down off my "frame" soap box.)

And perhaps right now there aren't enough good examples to fully highlight my "Clash World" vision. But in the long run, I truly believe frames are the best way to implement it.

---

Kull,

I haven't thought about it at all. What you're saying makes perfect sense to me -- indeed, it is convinient to be able to browse through all the forums and stuff having all links in the frame on the left ready.. So, thanks for enlightening Had you said this before, i believe my post about frames would be very different

Taking that into account, just a suggestion about non-framed version. I dunno what you have in mind already, but i would keep the layout but would make it using tables instead of frames, and that's it. Minimum changes. And then, as i alraedy said somewhere, you could make all the links that lead off the main site (like forums) open in the new window. Thus, it would somehow comply to your idea of navigability in the "clash world."
There's a very simple way to implement it.. Probably you can do it easier in FrontPage, but in case it's not the case Make something like a layout stub: two-column table i believe, and then just cut-n-paste (int the text editor )the code from the left frame into all the pages' left table column, and the corresponding code from the right frame into the right table column..

In case i failed to mention - i really like your overall design

-- Anton

I checked your non-framed page preview and.. you may call me a maniac but i love it. And gonna use it only..

Just one thing -- it is quite unusual that the layout is centered, usually they align it to the left. Takes some time getting used to the blank space on the left.. Was it done on purpose?

I just checked out the web page. I Really Like the new layout for each area! You've made a lot of progress .

http://www.fortunecity.com/underworld/run/943/

Great Job Guys!

I checked out the alternative styles. I think style #3 is pretty good if you would lose the blinking stuff. I like having the logo up top! I personally don't like a black background, but it does show off the artwork much better. A gold metallic font, like Dominique had way back when, would look Really cool if we go with a black background. You might be able to grab that font from the old preview page if it's still up...

The flames on #2 turned me off (surprise!). I also personally prefer the "exploded" menu on the left, rather than just having the main areas shown. The cross-hair bullets looked good.

style #1 was a good no-frames version.

1) To see what you like (and don't!)
2) To prepare for the day when the Clash Web Site transitions from a "workgroup" to a "marketing" focus (ie. when the game is ready to ship!) When that happens, a completely new look is almost going to be mandatory! It may seem like a long way off, but I commend him for the foresight.