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Civ 4 the List: Terrain & Terrain Improvements

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  • Civ 4 the List: Terrain & Terrain Improvements

    Introduction

    Terrain; the environment of our civ. Terrain improvements; the ways civ alters its environment. Here; the place to find ideas on how this should be done in Civ4!
    -List Threadmaster Nikolai

    Summary

    In the start of the discussion, the "terrain" and the "terrain improvements" parts of the list was most debated. People are mostly agreeing on the need of a new and vastly improved terrain/map, but when it comes to the actual kind of new terrains, the ideas are splitting.

    Later in the discussion process, the old public works vs. workers discussion arose. Pages after pages of this discussion filled the threads, and many ideas was proposed and debated.

    The third large discussion point, was railroads and transportation. Most people think that it have to be changed. Infinite movement for example, is not particularly popular everywhere, one might say.

    Related Threads

    Radical Ideas
    Spherical World
    Things to Borrow from Other Games
    Squares, Hexes, Octagons...
    Terrain Improvements?
    The design decision that can have a huge impact
    Growth - should it be related to food?
    Customizable Auto Workers
    What's in Civ4. Just the facts, ma'am
    Civ IV will have a 3D map! Discussion of possibilities
    Railroads?
    A vision of cIV
    Terrain:Public Works System - Ideas
    Terrain:Workers System - Ideas

    Table of Contents

    1 - The Terrain
    2 - Terrain improvements
    3 - Worker and PW ideas
    4 - Transportation over the map
    5 - Cities
    6 - Pollution
    7 - Mini-map
    8 - Climate and weather
    Conclusion

    The Ideas

    1 - The terrain

    1.1 - Harsher environment

    It should never be possible to irrigate desert or tundra EVER. Most military units that cross them should die, as should be the case with mountains and jungles. Forests and jungles should create plains when cut down. Irrigation should be curtailed.
    (Posted By Sandman)

    Agreementos with the 'harsher environment' idea, but if it's implemented, better make sure that the player is guaranteed at least a stretch of 'nice' environment, with room for 4-5 cities - otherwise it'll easily get really friggin' annoying.
    (Posted by Stefu)

    1.2 - Terrain technology

    1.2.1 - Back to SMAC

    Go back toward SMAC. have certain characteristics like elevation, ruggedness, trees, grass, rocks, sand, moisture, temparature. Treat north and south poles as in Civ2. Include fungus terrain characteristic in editor.
    (Posted By Brent)

    1.2.2 - Spherical world

    Spheric world!!
    If it would be done well and nice, it could really bring some immersion, hype and a bit more sense (not including the graphics ).
    (Posted by trifna)

    I am strongly in favour of a civilization game with a spherical map. The reasons why a spherical map would be an improvement include:

    1. A spherical map would be more realistic. The polar areas could be fully implemented, withn the possibility of nuclear exchanges over the poles, for example.
    2. A spherical map would reinvigorate the game, presenting a new challenge to long-time civ players, who've grown accustomed to playing on a flat map. No other grand-strategy game has used a spherical map to my knowledge, and if civ doesn't get it, some other game will.
    3. A spherical map would be aesthetically pleasing, particularly if it was combined with a renewed investment in the terrain graphics.
    (Posted by Sandman)

    1.2.3 - Triangular/octagonal pixels

    Triangular Pixels!
    Or octagonal to increase the accuracy of the modeling and to maximize strategic assault patterns.
    (Posted by DarkCloud

    1.2.4 - Hexgrid

    I would support a hexgrid.
    With a hexgrid, some adjustments would need to be made as there would only be 18 tiles in a city radius. Here are some suggestions (these suggestions generally have to deal with the population explosion of the late 19th/20th centuries that is so poorly represented in Civ I, II and III):

    Either when a certian tech is gained or when a city reaches a predetermined population (ie: 1-6 = town, 7-12 = city, 13+ = Metropololis) the city expands to a third ring of tiles (anything more than 3, like in CTPII, I think would be too much). The increase in available tiles will reflect in a larger population and thus more accurately represent the modern age.
    (Posted by donegeal)

    We can also look at the possibility of hexagons with four-sided figures.
    (Posted by Trifna)

    1.2.5 - Multiple level map

    How about a multiple level map, like ToT, so there is a level for land, a level for undersea, a level for orbit, and so on.

    1.3 - Suburbs

    1.3.1 - Suburbs in a hexgrid

    [On the discussion about using a hexgrid]
    However, since most Civ players aren't going to space their cities 6 hexs apart to take advantage of the additonal hex ring, I would also like to see the worker job of "Build Suburb" added. As I stated in another thread, the action would consume the worker and place a "town" graphic on the grid. Now if the "Build Suburb" action was limited to the inner ring of hexs surrounding the actual city, we would get a fine graphical representation of "Urban Sprawl". Now to fix the actual population explosion problem I mentioned at the on set of this post, I would have the "Build Suburb" action add two food to the tile it is built on (now I know that building a suburb on farm land does NOT increase the food gained from that farm, but the added food will reflect a higher population in the city it is attached to to better represent the population explosion).
    (Posted by donegeal)

    1.3.2 - Worker builds suburbs

    I have also be wanting a good way to deal with Urban Sprawl/Suburbs. Currently, for astetic reasons, I use the Urban Sprawl graphic for rail roads. Looks good, but then you get the Urban Sprawl everywhere. I have been wanting a "Suburb" tile improvement. The graphic would be similar to a "town". Suburbs would only be allowed to be built in the inner eight squares surrounding the actual city (maybe even giving cities the ability to build naval/costal things even if they are one tile back of the coast) and only on flat terrain (Grassland, Plains, Desert). Have a suburb add one or two of each food/shield/commerce (added food to show that the city is now larger population wise, added shield to show that there is infact more than one city working to complete something, and added commerce for all the extra trade that goes on). Building a Suburb comsumes the worker.
    (Posted By donegeal)

    1.3.3 - City growth builds suburbs

    When a city gets to a certain size, any additional growth has a chance of happening not in the city center, but in a suburb. This turns a surrounding tile into a "suburb" tile. These tiles do not produce food, or shields, but can hold up to 5 citizens which can be made into tax collectors, or workers, or whatever.

    The upside is that it gives you a lot of flexibility in terms of whether you want the city to be commercial or producing or science, etc. The down side is that you have to double irrigate, or farm other tiles to feed them. And you have to defend them from enemy attack.
    (Posted by wrylachlan)

    1.3.4 - Suburbs must not increase food output

    I like the "build suburb" idea, but INCREASE FOOD?! WTF?! What we really need to increase is Production and trade. In civ3 those specialists were goddamn worthless.
    (Posted by Azazel)

    1.4 - Terrain-specific Civs

    Let some Civs be more suited to specific terrain types, such as mountains, arctic, desert, forest, and islands.
    (Posted By Brent)

    1.5 - Text and names on terrain

    1.5.1 - Naming of the terrain

    However, past units it would be fun to have the option of giving names to terrain features. No default random ones to clutter the map, but (deleteable) ones you make like 'Monte Cassino', 'the Little Big Horn', the Mississippi, the Rhine, the Urals, etc. Names for map places that you can put anywhere and turn off if you don't want to see them.
    (Posted by Seeker)

    Place names. It would be good to have the option to put the place names in game (and obviously when editing an scenario).
    (Posted by Kramsib)

    1.5.2 - Ability to add text on the terrain

    The ability to right click on terrain and add text (from SMAC). This adds a great deal to the experience.
    (jimmytrick)

    1.6 - Landmarks

    Landmarks: like in SMAC.
    (Posted by J-S)

    1.7 - Terrain affects units

    1.7.1 - Damage from some terrain types

    Terrain afects units: some units should not be able to cross certain terrains without damage. That is afterall why both Napoleon and Hitler failed in Russia.
    (Posted by J-S)

    1.7.2 - Chance to damage units in certain terrains

    Certain terrains have a percentage chance each turn you move through them of taking away hitpoints. It could be as though the terrain itself were a unit and it "attacks" you as you go by. Certain units or civs would be more immune than others to these effects ie. Mayans have no jungle penalty or a late game Special Forces unit that is imune to all terrain penalties...
    (Posted by wrylachlan)

    1.8 - No tile overlay

    As for radical... I'd love to see a sphere witout any sort of tile overlay. You would tell units to go to coordinates instead.
    (Posted by Fosse)

    1.9 - Terrain types

    1.9.1 - Volcanoes
    1.9.1.1 - Active and dormant volcano

    Dormant is very fertile, but has a risk of becoming active...
    (Posted by Seeker)

    Volcano terrain - great benefits while dormant: tourism, fertile after a number of turns, science, any others? Should be able to include in City Radius, but definite risk for partial or total destruction every millennium or so.
    (Posted by La Diva)

    1.9.1.2 - Unability to build on volcanoes

    Volcanoes: Unable to build on them as mountains are now (but no roads or mining is allowed either)
    (Jer8m8)

    1.9.2 - Hills divided into new terrain types

    Hills divided into Mediterranean/Chaparral and Foothill, med hills are more agricultural, foothills more barren.
    (Posted by Seeker)

    1.9.3 - Impassable terrain/Some terrain hard to pass
    1.9.3.1 - Impassable mountain

    Would establish a clear line between mountainous but passable terrain (switzerland, nepal) from totally impassable peaks.
    (Posted by Seeker)

    1.9.3.2 - Impassable tiles

    Have more tiles which are totally impassible and/or impassible in a certain direction. The code is already in the game for not being able to go from one tile to another in a certain direction. Its used for wheeled units crossing rivers without a road. Why not add in cliffs, or mountains that are too steep to climb.
    (Posted by wrylachlan)

    1.9.3.3 - Some terrain hard to pass

    What if the movement cost of a tile was not determined by the tile itself, but the tile border? For example Grassland:Grassland is 1, but Mountains:Grassland is 2. Similarly Grasslands:Mountain is 3 because you're climbing up the mountain, but Mountain:Mountain is only 2 because you're walking along the ridge.
    (Posted by wrylachlan)

    1.9.3.4 - Do not implement it

    impassable terrain - CivTot has impassable tiles - a bloomin' nuisance, IMO. The playing grid is small enough without stealing usable space for worthless features.
    (Posted by La Diva)

    1.9.4 - Plateau

    Distinguish between saltwater and freshwater, and have them give different resources, saltwater producing salt.
    (Posted by Brent)

    1.9.5 - Rice paddies

    More fertile than swamps, found in deltas, don't disappear with irrigation.
    (Posted by Seeker)

    1.9.6 - Ocean Trench

    More fish, adds more 'stuff' to look at in the ocean besides coastal/deep sea.
    (Posted by Seeker)

    1.9.7 - Badlands/Mesas

    Hills for obs. purposes but very dry, irrigation gives 1 food.
    (Posted by Seeker)

    1.9.8 - Natural harbour

    There should be a 'natural harbour' type of terrain that makes sea improvements much cheaper to any city built on it and also gives extra trade.
    (Posted by Sandman)

    1.9.9 - Shallow water type

    Shallow water type, at allows only small ships to sail there.

    Why? To make it easier to defend coastal lines from massive invasions.

    How to manage an invasion from sea then? Not sure, either the big ships must carry those small ships as cargo with the other units or you could allow units to "cross" that watertype using all movementpoints to advance only one tile. I am sure some has better ideas for this.

    How to bombard then? Again not sure.... But you could allow bombarding units to fire up to two (or three or more) tiles away, couldn't you?! AFAIR that was possible in the old war-game The Perfect General 2.
    (Posted by TheBirdMan)

    shallow water ... manage invasion from sea - ships could bombard from farther out, with less accuracy (less damage), units coming ashore would use one of the ship's movement points to "cross" the shallow area via AI landing craft
    (Posted by La Diva)

    1.9.10 - Basic terrain types

    Peaks (really high mountains)
    Mountain
    Hill
    grass
    plains
    desert
    tundra
    glacier

    Jungle, forest, and swamp are 'improvements' in this model, similar to SMAC forest and fungus.

    Some terraforming should be allowed. With really advanced technology, it should be possible to terraform a mountain into a hill. However, the system should remember the original terrain. While a mountain can be transformed into a hill, and a hill into plains, a tile that was originally a mountain cannot be levelled into plains.
    (Posted by lajzar)

    1.9.11 - Sea terrains

    Coast
    Seas
    Oceans
    Iceburgs
    Ice Cap
    Shallows

    Coast, sea, and oceans are as per civ3. Iceburgs represent a shipping hazard, and ice caps are impassable except for subs. Shallows represent about 1/5 of all coast tiles, and possibly other areas (such as the Dogger Bank in the North Sea). The following special rules apply to shallows:

    Certain large ships (carriers, dreadnoughts, battleships) cannot enter shallows.

    Most units can only unload from a transport if the transport is in a shallows tile or if unloading into a friendly city.

    Marines (including any unit with this flag) can unload from a transport into hostile cities or from normal coast tiles.

    In addition, Oceans may have a trade wind (direction) flag. Any sail ship moving in the same direction (or with a 45 degree angle) gets a movement bonus. Note sure how easy this would be for the system to randomly generate maps so this feature would appear to mesh with reality.
    (Posted by lajzar)

    1.9.12 - Natural

    Forest (plains/grass/hill only)
    Jungle (grass only)
    Swamp (grass only)
    Nature Park

    Forest, swamp, and jungle replace the traditional separate terrain types. This isn't a gameplay change, as these terrain types couldn't have farms or mines anyway. It is more a change in the internal logic used. The Nature Park corresponds to national parks. It appears around late industrial times (Yellowstone was the world's first iirc), and provides a trade bonus and a pollution bonus.
    (Posted by lajzar)

    1.9.13 - Other new terrains

    Glacier: the food/shield/commerce production of this terrain would be 0/0/0, although being next to a river would still give the bonus commerce; no terrain improvements could be built on glacier (including irrigation, mines, and roads); no planting forests on glaciers; movement cost of 3; can't build cities on glacier

    Arctic: production would be 0/0/0, but could be mined; in addition, could have roads built on them, but not rails; no planting forests in arctic terrain either; movement cost would be 2

    Shield-Land: represents heavily eroded ancient mountains; a hybrid of hills and plains; production would be 1/1/0; irrigation would provide 1 additional food, mines 2 additional shields; movement cost would be 1; low (20%) defensive bonus; can contain forests

    Ice-Flow: an overlay on top of coast, sea, or ocean terrain; high movement cost (of 3?); chance every turn for units occupying ice-flow tiles to sink (with lesser chance for more modern units to sink); production would be same as underlying terrain

    Ice Cap: another water-based terrain; zero production; impassable except to units flagged to pass through or under this terrain (such as nuclear subs)
    (Posted by Xorbon)

    1.9.14 - Forest being an overlay

    I would like forests to be an overlay tile that adds +1 sheilds, not a terrain. if you cut down a forest it will stowly grow back (100 turns?). about terrain names with forest:

    Grassland + Forest = Temperate Forest, Tropical Rain Forest

    Plains + Forest = Chapparal/Mediterrainean scrub, Monsoon Forest

    Hills + Forest = Upland Forests

    Mountains + Forests = Montane Forests, Cloud Forests

    Tundra + Forest = Taiga

    Coast + Forests = Mangrove Swamps, Kelp Beds, Coral Reefs
    (Posted by Odin)

    1.10 - Terrain dependant on "neighbour"

    ONE thing about terrain: puting tiles in an aleatory manner just doesn't give the best results. An amphasis should be put on "next to huge mountains, there's more chances to get little mountains", "next to a delta there's more chances to get better plains", "next to desert, there is less chances to see jungle", etc.

    It changes a landscape AND strategy alot (strategy would include to get "this region" or "this other region"!)
    (Posted by Trifna
    )

    1.11 - Rivers a bigger part of the game

    Rivers need to become a bigger part of the game, there should be some wider rivers say 3/4 of a tile, or multiple tiles, with fish, in them at locations, etc.

    You should need a large river in the city to build the dam imporvement.
    You also would not be able to cross these until after getting engineering and then building a bridge across them. This would not be automatic it would cost more worker time. If this is a variable width, it could cost more at a wider spot. You should need to upgrade your bridge to allow the railroad or mechanized units to cross it as they put to much strain on the bridge you built in the middle ages.
    (Posted by marcthornton)

    1.12 - Generating a Map

    On a random map, give significant chances both for landmasses to be close enough for a primitive ship to safely reach the other, and for landmasses that you won't see until you start exploring the deep oceans.

    In choosing options for your map, be able to set percentages and numbers of tiles of a particular terrain. You could have 50 to 90 % water, 0 to 100 volcanoes, and 40 to 100 % of your land as grassland.

    Pregame, be able to chronologically guide the formation of your planet.

    Based on the current world customization system, give five degrees of options for setting each landform characteristic.
    (Posted by Brent)

    1.13 - ZOC

    For ZOC, I'd like to see the ZOC only extend to the surrounding 1 tile radius or where you can move in 1 turn, whichever is smaller. Thus if I can't cross a river in a turn, I have no ZOC on the tiles across the river. Similarly if we accept the creation of cliffs, etc. which are total barriers to movement, I can't ZOC the tile on the other side of the cliff.
    (Posted by wrylachlan)

    1.14 - Terrain Graphics

    Include more than one set of terrain graphics.
    (Posted by Brent)

    1.15 - Production Variance

    I've seen people advocate the use of a 'x10 system' for food/shield/commerce production. I think that increasing tile production would help give game designers and modders more flexibility in fine tuning production from terrains and terrain improvements.

    In addition to that, an idea I have is to introduce a variance in tile production. That way, tiles of the same terrain-type don't always produce exactly the same amounts of food or shields. For instance, desert tiles could produce 8-12 shields (10 +/- 2 shields) instead of always producing 10 shields. In that case, one desert tile could produce 9 shields while an adjacent desert-tile could produce 12.

    A way to implement this would be to have 'base-production' and 'variance' values for each terrain-type for food and shields. So, in the above desert example, the base-production and variance would be 10 and 2 for shield production. If the variance would cause a tile to produce a negative amount of a resource, the tile produces zero of that resource instead. So, a desert could be given base food production and variance values of 0 and 3. Deserts would then produce between 0 and 3 units of food (instead of -3 to 3). The negative values would come into play later if the tile is irrigated. For instance, if irrigating the tile gives +10 food, a tile that has a -2 adjustment because of variance would produce 8 food after irrigating, not 10.
    (Posted by Xorbon)

    It would be nice if the map generator could perform a smoothing function on the amount of variance, so that you would get regions of high fertility grasslands, or extremely resource poor mountain ranges.

    I would even go so far as to say letting 60 or 70% of the potential production of a tile be the varaiable kind. So grass lands would produce 10 food no matter what, but CAN produce up to 60. Most would fall someplace in between, but every now and then you'd get a great fertile area, and somewhere else on the globe somebody is stuck with what looks like grassland, but has terrible harvests.

    For those who care a lot about eyecandy: This system is a good place for the usefull kind... A graphic tile would show the type of terrain, and a graphic overlay would show how fertile or mineral rich an area is. The map would look better, provide more information, and have more interesting terrain with possible strategic influences.
    (Posted by Fosse)

    Given what Xorbon is saying about increasing the potential for 'Variance', I think that the idea of 'Overexploitation' should be raised too! What I'm thinking is that, once you build a terrain improvement on a HEX (notice HEX, not square, or tile BUT HEX !!!), be it a farm or a mine, then you should be able to set the output of that improvement-up to its maximum allowed level. This could have important ramifications, should you decide to max out a specific tile-as it would increase the chance of that tile becoming less productive. In addition, overexploitation of tiles should also contribute to a city's pollution level.

    For example: Lets say that a farm can produce a maximum of +3 food-in my system, this maximum would only be if you were using so-called 'Intensive Agriculture'. This would be highly productive, but also highly degrading for the terrain.
    Anyway, just a thought!
    (Posted by The_Aussie_Lurker)

    1.16 - Terrain change and resources

    A flag for (strategic, bonus, luxury) resources that causes them to disappear if the terrain is altered to a terrain-type that doesn't support that resource. For instance, spices and rubber should disappear if you chop down the forest/jungle they're found in. Horses should disappear from plains if you plant forests. Uranium would be an example of a resource that would not disappear if the terrain is altered (i.e. the flag wouldn't be enabled for uranium).
    (Posted by Xorbon)

    1.17 - Unimproved terrain earns culture/income after some time

    After you discover say, ecology, every X hexes of 'unimproved' forest, jungle or marsh squares will earn culture and tourist income for the city that has them within its radius-or the nation will recieve the benefit if it lies outside of any individual city's radius!
    This would encourage players and the AI to leave areas of forest intact and untouched for the later part of the game. Also, if forests and jungles reduced per-turn pollution output, then these terrain types would be even MORE important!
    (Posted by The_Aussie_Lurker)

    1.18 - New terrain types

    Oasis - trying to grow a city in the desert for its strategic and/or resource advantage is virtually impossible without one, until reaching Electricity and artificial irrigation.

    Quicksand - now there's a new tile. Unless the world map gets much larger, I don't think I'd want to waste any tile on that terrain. Actually, most pools are too small to be a whole tile anyway, right?
    (Posted by La Diva)

    Also, the more I think of it, the more I like the idea of a "shoals" type water tile that makes it so you can't land there. That would allow the defender to concentrate its forces on the "likely" landing spots.
    (Posted by wrylachlan)

    1.19 - Unexplored terrain harder to move into

    I had a thought about a way to make scout/explorer units more useful and desirable in the early game. Have a movement penelty for moving into unexplored squares for regular units.

    So a civ would have the following mapsquare statuses.

    Unknown: Completely black. Here be dragons. No clue at all.

    Unexplored: Squares that have come into the LOS of a unit, but your people have never travelled into the square. You can see something of what's there, but it's not mapped and the first unit to move through there is gonna go slow cause they don't know the best routes, watering holes, etc.

    Explored: Been there, done that, got the tshirt and the stupid bumper sticker.

    Of course, Fog of War would also be overlayed on this too. And any territory inside a civ's cultural borders would be automatically explored.

    So in exploring with a regular unit, movement into an unexplored square would have an extra movement cost. But a scout/explorer unit would be exempt from the penelty. An early horseman with 2 movement might only be able to move at a rate of 1 through unexplored territory. A scout would be able to move at full speed everywhere.

    In the early game scouts would be more useful. This could even be extended to the seas. If variable movement rates for water were implemented a form of this could be applied to water. Perhaps a transport with a scout onboard would gain the movement benifits of the scout.

    Another potential aspect of this is in map trading. It could become a lot more useful with the increased informational benifits.

    I was also thinking that perhaps map resources would only be revealed in explored spaces. Ie. if nobody's ever been there, no one will know that there's gold there, or oil or saltpeter.

    I'm sure there's a lot more that could be done with the idea than I've outlined here.
    (Posted by Bleyn
    )

    2 - Terrain improvements

    2.1 - Natural terrain improvements

    2.1.1 - Natural wonders

    Natural Wonders. Small percentage chance, when you build a town, that there is a natural wonder near-by. It would be cool to have them on the map, and you can build near it, but I think the map would have enough to deal with. Thus, just add it as a town/terrain function. Not sure what it would give, maybe culture points.

    2.1.2 - Changing terrain types over time

    As some have probably already suggested, changing terrain types over time might be nice. In the case of forests, newly planted ones might mature through various intermediary stages over many turns. Perhaps only if not actively worked during a given turn would a tile 'age' as such. Similarly, unworked grassland (or farm?) might slowly develop towards a natural climax ecosystem... particularly if such an ecosystem is represented in an adjacent tile (like a less all-or-nothing version of SMAC's forest expansion). This whole tile changing system could be nicely incorporated with the concept of old growth forests (climax temperate ecosystem)
    (Posted by Geoff the Medio)

    2.2 - Natural Parks

    Natural Parks and Protective land. If you are going to be able to designate borders it would also be cool to designate natural parks that could help combat pollution. This land could sacrifice shield bonus' for commerace.
    (Posted by Japher)

    National parks can be implemented as another terrain improvement. The same could be done for suburban sprawl.
    (Posted by lajzar)

    2.3 - Ability to build things directly on the map

    Be able to build Walls, such as The Great Wall of China and Hadrian's Wall, which have an effect without the involvement of units. Be able to build Canals.
    (Posted By Brent)

    -walls. would there be a certain length that would constitute the Great Wall wonder? would the length depend on the size of your map?

    -canals. probably couldn't be built through mountains or hills. Maybe could only be one square.

    -bridges. could only be built over one square, and only very late in the game

    -tunnel (chunnel). see bridges. One would be cheaper than the other, and maybe something could happen to one more easily than the other. Chunnel could be a Feat of Wonder.
    (Posted by) Brent

    2.4 - More levels for terrain improvements

    Terrain improvements should have more levels, so that an industrial farm or mine is many times as productive as their ancient counterparts.
    This will allow well-developed civs with small territory to be more productive than larger civs with less infrastructure.
    (Posted by Optimizer)

    2.4.1 - Bring farmland back

    I must admit to missing one thing about Civ2...irrigation to farmlands. Twice the effort for workers (I'm bracing myself for the comments from people who hate anything that increases the amount of micromanagement), but I liked the nod to improved strategies and technologies in domestic production.
    (Posted by Shogun Gunner)

    I'd be okay with farms, if we stick to the proposal someone else (forgive me for neglecting credit where credit is due, I just don't want to browse the many threads right now!) made about limiting irrigation to right along the water's edge.
    You would farm over your old irrigation, netting improvement, but you would also farm over everything else as well, which you couldn't irrigate.
    (Posted by Fosse)

    2.4.2 - Multiple levels

    For food (and others, this is n example), you should have multiple levels of improvement a la CTP. However, certain terrain types will not allow irrigation, and advanced improvements won't give teh same bonus across different terrains. An example data file might be:

    grasslands - 1 2 4
    plains - 1 2 3
    desert - 0 1 2

    basically, irrigation can't be built in desert, farms can, but produce less food, and superfarms get an extra bonus in grasslands. Similar paths could be done for mining.
    (Posted by lajzar)

    2.5 - No tile improvements at all

    No tile improvements at all. Public works (or even just cash) could be used for things like military roads and canals and bridges... but not for building one mine, or one farm, etc.

    People in cities are responsible for improving their own cities, and will do so according to the tech they have. When crop rotation is discovered, crop output goes up without the player having to move a unit to the city and pushing the "Fallow" command a bunch of times.

    Cities can only build improvments if they have the available money, but the player could earmark parts of the economy to be used by those cities. he could set, say, 10% of the treasury to be used by cities to subsize perhaps 70% of the cost of building mines.
    (Posted by Fosse)

    2.6- Canals

    It should be possible to build a canal when the knowledge and resources are in place. But to avoid it to be too crazy, limit the length to a few tiles starting or ending (or both) at the sea.
    (Posted by TheBirdMan)

    2.7 - New improvements

    • upgradable fortresses (maybe they can add defense AND act as a colony?)
    • national flags (basically claim a square and eight surrounding squares, similar to colonies, but still count as within borders)
    • bridges across one tile of ocean between landmasses

    (cassembler)
    (Drathx)

    2.8 - Water-based tile improvements

    Water-based tile improvements (nets, fishing fleets, oil platforms)
    (Posted by hexagonian)

    I really disagree with nets and fishing fleets... Mostly because they seem like too large an abstraction for civ- can't we just assume that each individual city builds a harbor and as such, there are shipmen?
    (Posted by DarkCloud)

    2.9 - Industry/settlement improvement

    I'd like to see an "industry" or "settlement" improvement that comes with industrialization and can be created like an outpost or airfield - it eats a worker. It gives a big shield and trade bonus but cuts all food production. This would also require the ability to ship food between cities.
    (Posted by skywalker)

    2.10 - Movement bonuses to some improvements

    Give a little movement bonuses to other infrastructures. For example, moving in irrigated fields could cost 1/2 moves. This way, roads would still be good as major axes of communication, but there would be no incentive to build them on each and every square (or hexa )
    (Posted by Spiffor)

    2.11 - Industrial improvements

    Mines
    Deep Mines
    Mega Mines
    Oil Rigs

    Lots of industry, and pollution as a consequential side effect of that. Oil rigs do the same for the sea.
    (Posted by)

    2.12 - Food improvements

    Irrigation
    Farm
    Genetic Farm
    Fishing Nets
    Fishery
    Sea Farm

    Irrigation is ancient farming. Probably needs a better name. Farms refers to late medieval crop rotation techniques through to modern farms. Genetic farm refers to genetic engineering. It provides increased food and some pollution. Fisheries etc do the same for sea tiles.

    Hills can only be irrigated once you have the terrace farming technology, and until you have desalination technology, you should only be able to irrigate from a fresh water source. It should never be possible to irrigate a mountain.

    Hydroponics should be a city improvement, as they dont take up vast areas of land to run. Think Algae vats and mushroom farms.
    (Posted by lajzar)

    2.13 - Transportation improvements

    Undersea tunnel
    Tracks
    (Roman) Road
    Highway

    Provides 2/3, 1/3, and 1/5 normal move costs, respectively. Undersea tunnels provide 1/5 move cost, but if pillaged, all land units in connected tiles drown.

    Rail depots are a city improvement that provides transport facilities similar to Civ2 airports.
    (Posted by lajzar)

    2.14 - Civ specific terrain improvements

    why not have civilisation specific tile improvements?

    I have been able to think of the following:

    Dutch: tulipfields +2 trade
    Ottoman, Arab: caravanserai +1 trade/+25%defense
    Zulu: kraal +25% defense/slows down enemy movement
    Romans: imperial road +1 movement/ignore river
    French: Vauban fortress +50% defense/intrinsic bombard
    English: steampowered mine +2 shields
    Scandinavians: sawmill +1 trade/+1shield
    Chinese: fishpond +1 food
    Persians: quanat +1 food
    Greeks: olive grove +1 trade/immune to pillage
    Inca: trail +1 movement/ignore river
    Aztec: chinampas +1 food
    Hittites: iron foundry +2 shield
    Russians: gas pipeline +1 shield
    Koreans: supercomputer access +2 trade
    Americans: GPS decoder +1 food
    Germans: Autobahn: +1 trade/immune to bombard

    More can be added.

    These become available when certain techs are discovered. The advantage is commensurate with the time it takes to build them, so that some effort will be put into building them.

    Also certain improvements can only be built on certain terrain. For instance sawmill can only be built on forrest tiles next to rivers. Likewise certain improvements can only be built if there is acces to certain resources, fo instance Hittite iron foundry.

    Maybe to make it interesting captured or bought workers can build the improvements of the original civ, so that for instance the Persians capture some Greek workers and can make them build olive groves.

    The advantages to this scheme would be multifold. 1) it would further differentiate between the different civs, making the game more enjoyable. 2) it would ensure a map that is more varied and thus easier on the eye.
    (Posted by tripledoc)

    2.15 - Use techs to improve the terrain

    My suggestion: use techs instead. Have food improving techs like:
    irrigation
    crop rotation
    accurate calendar
    fish net
    terrace farming
    pesticides
    hybrid strains

    Shield improving techs like:
    pit mining
    strip mining
    quarrying
    oil drilling
    off shore drilling

    And trade improving techs like:
    roads
    currency
    trade ships
    banking
    limited liability

    Maybe each tech increases the production of all cities by a certain percentage.

    I would keep roads / railroads (built with a public works system), but only for movement, not trade increases. This is because placing roads to important places is actually an interesting strategic decision, not the drudgery of must-rr-every-tile.

    This will also have the bonus of not turning the map into an ugly railroaded robotic looking mess.

    Whether you like the tech idea or not, please give serious thought to eliminating terrain improvements.

    In a game, how many times do you decide to, for instance, declare war? Maybe a dozen or so. And how many times do you decide what tile to move worker #45 to? How many times do you decide "irrigate here, mine there?" Literally hundreds, probably THOUSANDS.

    Change that ratio! Spend time making fun decisions, not mindless ones!

    Eliminating terrain improvements is the single thing that will do the most to increase the fun of Civ and make it appeal to a wider audiance.
    (Posted by nato)

    You ideas would not work nato:

    1. Getting rid of roads is impossible-a tech that would allow your units the same benefits on every square would be ridiculously powerful, as well as completely ahistorical-how could we cut the roads? IN fact, the same goes for mines.

    Tedium of micromanagement can be solved with better automation-need to make a road? Tell worker x, we need a road from here to there.

    The fact is that what you term tedious is in fact the core of empire building:administration. If you don;t like it, automate the workers. That simple.

    I play civ to build an empire, to simulate building a civilization. That means making roads-that means grand improvement project-the romans are known for theirs roads, the chinese emperor for their canals and walls. If you want a game devoid of that, simple, don't play civ.
    (Posted by GePap)

    Terrain & Improvements Page 2

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    • Civ 4 the List: List of Threadmasters
      by DarkCloud

      The List for Civ IV was a project that could not have been accomplished without the hard work and dedication of the many Threadmasters and ideas-finders on the forums. While idea-suggestors are likewise important, I have compiled here a list of the volunteers who went above and beyond the call of duty to take on the task of threadmastering a thread for the List.

      And here they are, alphabetically:

      Asmodean- Former Administrator of the List
      Azazel- Government and Social Engineering
      DarkCloud- Administrator; Civilizations, General, Scenario/Map Editor; List Formatter
      Fosse- The Polls
      Ixnay- Space
      Lajzar- Units
      MattH- Cheats
      Nikolai- AI, Resources, Terrain
      Octavian X- Wonders
      Platypus Rex- Regional and City Menus
      TechWins- Diplomacy
      Trifna- Movement/Supply, User Friendliness

      August 31, 2012, 18:13
    • Civ 4 the List: Closing Remarks
      by DarkCloud

      And so now the list has drawn to a close. Thousands of ideas have been culled from the Civ III community at Apolyton. Hopefully the list that we propose here has been easy enough to search through and hopefully it will lead to a great parnership between the players and the corporation.

      Good luck with your struggles and please, keep civving!

      -DarkCloud
      List Administrator

      PS: Here's a link to the Civ III-Ideas List compiled by Apolyton Fans on July 14, 1999 - Civ III List in case you wish to compare it to the current creation

      August 31, 2012, 18:05
    • Civ 4 the List: The Polls
      by Fosse

      Introduction

      Realizing that some polls about hot topics have already left the top page, and that newcomers to the discussion seldom dig through the back pages in order to find out what's been discussed before, I've decided to compile a list of the Civ 4 List related polls.

      I've abandoned keeping a running talley of votes, as it's a great deal of work that is immediatley outdated, and if you really were interested in the results you would visit the poll and read the comments.

      Now... the polls:

      Stacked vs. Single Unit Combat: The Battle Continues
      Should units be stacked into "armies" that fight and operate as a single unit, or does moving them one at a time provide a boost to strategic considerations?

      Resources: How to Handle
      Is a system with stores and limits on resources a better simulation and more fun, or tedious micromangement?

      From Civ 3 to Civ 4
      More of the same, or a bold new direction for Civ 4?

      Squares, Hexes, Octagons...
      Pick your poison, the traditional Civ Map, traditional War Games map, or something else entirely.

      Eras in Civ 4?
      Is the new era system a great addition, or a stifling hindrance?

      Espionage & Assymetrical Warfare
      Does Bond get his own unit?

      To 2000 AD or Beyond?
      Civ, From the Ancients to the Stars; or Civ, The Whole of Human History.

      {The List} United Nations
      A resolution for change... do you Veto?

      {The List} What Should Happen to Civ Traits?
      Should Civ 4 have homogenous Civs or even more differences?

      Terrain Improvements
      "Give me Workers, or Give me Death" vs "Micromagement Gives me Death."

      Nomads and Chiefdoms
      Should Civ 4 let us wander the great wide open?

      Civ 4 ideas - straights and canals
      Do you want straigts? Or canals?

      Civ 4 idea: Armies instead of units
      Once again, armies or single units?

      Health in Civ 4?
      Should we have sick Civs?

      Emphasis on Age
      Which historical era, if any, should get a boost in Civ 4?

      Civ 4 resistance
      Do you want partisans from Civ 2? Resistors from Civ 3? Or something new for Civ 4?

      Fire and Movement
      How should firepower and movement rates affect combat in Civ 4?

      Stacking Limits Y/N
      Assuming we have stacks, what sorts of stack limits should there be?

      Improved Poll: When should Civilization IV end?
      What is a good time for the game to end?

      Future Techs in Civ 4
      Which future era techs would you like in Civ 4?

      What ARE wonders, anyway?
      Well? What are they?

      Pollution Managers:
      Would you like Pollution Managment added to city screen?

      Tech Transmission


      Here is some food for thought from Civfanatics.

      -Respectfully Compiled by Fosse

      ...
      August 31, 2012, 18:03
    • Civ 4 the List: Wonders
      by Fosse
      Introduction The concept of the great Wonders of the World in Civ is as old as the series itself. For years, civvers around the world have built Pyramids, Great Libraries, Magellanic Voyages, and trips to the Moon. And, as Civ has gone from I to II to III, wonders have been added, removed, or have changed in some way. With Civ3 came the idea of Small Wonders that each nation had the oppertunity to build individually, further widening the effect of these great projects. As Civ4 looms over the horizon, how will the concept of Wonders of the World evolve further? Summary As you can see, I'm still coming up with ideas already proposed and boiling them down into a list. The links I have found to all threads in this forum pertaining to wonders has been included. If you have some more links, or brand new ideas, please feel free to post them in this thread. Related Threads http://apolyton.net/showthread.php?threadid=75460 http://apolyton.net/showthread.php?threadid=106609 http://apolyton.net/showthread.php?threadid=107349 http://apolyton.net/showthread.php?threadid=117222 http://apolyton.net/showthread.php?threadid=107895 http://apolyton.net/showthread.php?threadid=111317 http://apolyton.net/showthread.php?threadid=114759 http://apolyton.net/showthread.php?threadid=115569 http://apolyton.net/showthread.php?threadid=117740 http://apolyton.net/showthread.php?threadid=117222 Table of Contents New Wonder Ideas Changes to Existing Wonders New Wonder Concepts Conclusion The Ideas I. New Wonder Ideas This section goes on the idea that the concept of the ‘wonder’ in Civ will not change from Civ3 to Civ4, that players will still accumulate production in a race with other civs in their attempt to build a wonder. Listed at those specific ideas for a brand new wonder. Statue of Liberty No so much a new wonder, but bringing back a great one from Civ2. A civ with this wonder, in Civ2, could switch to any government type, irregardless of possession of the prerequisite tech, with no anarchy time. In Civ2, it was rendered mostly useless by the fact that one could switch governments without penalty every four turns (the classic Odeo years).Arrian Banaue Rice Terraces >Ancient - allows irrigation on hills (weak, needs more benefit, maybe cut irrigation time or allow hills/forests/mountains to act as irrigated square for the purposes of irrigating next to it).Solomwi Channel Tunnel Modern/Late Industrial - allows ground units to move across single tile straits without ships.Solomwi Machu Picchu Late Ancient - allows settlement on mountains.Solomwi Attitude/Reputation Wonders Bring back some of the old ones from Civ2 that could modify relations with neighbors. (Eiffel, Marco Polo, etc.)Solomi Apian Way (Small Wonder) Originally Roman Empire, huge boon to trade (25-50% for every city connected by it) and unit movement along its length (4 tiles instead of three like other roads). For those who love micromanaging, the Wonder could cost a city less to "produce," but workers would return to existing roads for an additional one or two turns per tile, resulting in a straighter road graphic or a different color. Building the AW from scratch would take 25% longer than normal roads. The benefit would be only on city-to-city connecting roads, not on every city radius tile, but it would also apply to roads to Resources and to your civ's borders in anticipation of expansion by settlements or conquest. The benefit would continue until replaced by Railroads (not the Tech but actual construction). For those who despise micromanaging, give the option to pay more and have the work magically appear when the Wonder is produced. The entire cost would then be based upon X base plus y for so many tiles to link all cities with one road at the time of the Wonder's completion, meaning if you add more cities while in production, the cost continues to go up - but again, you dodge the microM. The Round Table (Great Wonder) A la King Arthur, this would make representative forms of government faster to discover and to implement with shorter or nonexistent anarchy. Lewis & Clark (SW) This would double Movement Points of all units exploring black-out tiles, except when barbarians have been uncovered, so you'd have to deal with them normally. Speed wouldn't be affected by another civ's units. Pony Express (SW) Faster communication improves Science and Culture and would reduce corruption in far away cities on the same continent. It would also speed up building the first Road between each city. Any additional city tiles worked for roads would still take the normal time. International Red Cross (GW) This would be a major diplomatic boost, as well as better treatment for captured units and faster healing for battle-wounded units. Recover...
      August 31, 2012, 17:58
    • Civ 4 the List: User Friendliness/ The Manual / Help Files
      by Trifna
      Introduction User Friendliness- what makes the game easy to play. The Manual- the guides to Civ I and II provided historical information and pull-out charts that gave the game character- will Civ IV have such things? Or will the manual merely be a cheap on-line PDF? Help Files- how easily can the owners of the game find their way around it once accessing the game itself? Summary While this wasnt the most glamours of sections, it is in some ways the most important because without easy accessibility, Civilization would be both unfun and impossible to play. Many ideas which could fall in this area were included in other sections, thus its sparseness can be explained by the universality in where these help information can be put in. Table of Contents The Ideas Conclusion The Ideas Historical Garbage: Forget the historical stuff about units. Most people never read it and it doesn't enhance gameplay.-Kuciwalker (It should be noted, however that a significant group of civvers actually appreciates these historical things and the fact that they are in the game makes it more educational and acceptable to teachers and parents trying to teach their children through learning. It also makes the game more 'intellectual' and provides a good reference.)-DarkCloud Generating Civlopedia Entries IN THE EDITOR:: Make it easy to generate Civpedia entries IN THE EDITOR.-Kuciwalker A "?" to click on and point at elements: I propose that somewhere at the top of the screen there would be a litte interrogation mark to click on. If you click on it, there will be a bunch of very visible interrogation marks each place on the present screen you can get a little text explaining how it works, what it is and everything that's nice to know. This would help many, without even bringing the need of a complete tutorial (though a tutorial can always be nice, and it could use the information put with this interrogation marks system).-Trifna "Hovered on" information: I also think that there should be, in the options tablet, a checkbox that when clicked, will cause the mouse button (when it's hovering over an object) to describe the object in a short description-DarkCloud Improved file save/retrieve: Would it be too much to ask to slightly improve the file save and file retrieve dialog boxes? I feel like I'm back in Windows 3.x with the spartan [...] file operation box. What I would like to see is a page ripped from Microsoft's book on this. First, make the box a little bit bigger. If I'm doing some file operation, go ahead and cover most of the screen. It's not like I'm playing the game while opening/closing a game. Second, I need to see some properties information displayed regarding my file saves. A small thumbnail of my map would be nice. Also, some information like: When was the file created (game started) Date last saved How many civs active Current scores/perhaps a histograph? Whether the game is SP, MP or PBEM Speaking of PBEM. Could a seperate interface be developed for keeping MP and PBEM games organized? I create seperate folders, but I think with minimal effort, a little nicer front end could be developed to make it easy to store, organize and launch games.One last thing...the manual makes it a point to say that it doesn't store email addresses. This is a pretty simple thing that would help the player tremendously.-Shogun Gunner Using the standard Windows open-file box: Why not use the standard Windows open-file box, with an extra part to display some info about the actual savegame you have selected?-Kuciwalker Mini-map, and opening a game in one click: A mini-map thumbnail is essential.I'd also like a way to open games with one click from the main menu.-MattH For a printed manual: The manual should be printed, not digital! I find it much nicer to be able to paw through actual paper.-MattH ...Digital is transient... paper is for all time-DarkCloud Being able to pause at any time: Be able to pause the game in the middle of anything it's doing to look at settings, etc. When it's cycling through automated or AI units. Be able to change orders in the middle. Be able to more easily observe what the AI is doing before it's finished.-Brent Conclusion This section is pretty explanatory and compact, but basically people want ways to easily determine what different sorts of data is on the map and to easily plunge into a game of civ....
      August 31, 2012, 17:55
    • Civ 4 the List: Units
      by lajzar
      Introduction This is meant as a discussion of two principal aspects of the game: what units should appear in the game, and the effects of the various unit attribute flags. Of secondary importance is finding a way to integrate unit statistics with whatever combat method is chosen; it is generally agreed that balancing stats will depend a lot on how combat (stacked vs 1:1 vs other) is implemented. Summary One recurring theme across the various lists for each generation of civ was for a unit workshop, similar to smac. I believe this would be bad for civ. While it could reflect the historical range of units if constrained with a uitably detailed complex ruleset, this rulset would be unreasonably complex for a game, forcing an extra level of management. In addition, it would make it extremely hard to mod the graphics, and all but impossible to create mods with fantasy units. Most people agree that civ3 had far too few units in the game. The big jumps in the capabilities at each critical tech gave an overwhelming advantage to teh tech leader, as well as giving a somewhat disjointed view of history. With assymetric units, there is clearly a strong desire for these functions to be implemented. The main debate is on whether or not units are the best means of implementing these functions. This a decision that should be made on a group by group basis. There is very little desire for religious units or lawyers, but worker functions are evenly split on whether units are the best method to put them in the game. Related Threads Civ4 Idea: Armies instead of Units Stacked vs. Single Unit Combat - The Battle Continues Some sort of unit design allowed? Civ4 Units Table of Contents 2.0 Miscellaneous Thoughts 5.0 Units Conclusion The Ideas Organized by: Lajzar...
      August 31, 2012, 17:52
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