Apolyton CS: Civilization III: The List v1: Wonders (page 2)

WONDERS
-Summarized by Thread Master: EnochF-
a-kevsn@microsoft.com

PAGE 1 | PAGE 2

2. NEW RULES FOR WONDERS    TOP

Many players wish to keep the basic system for building Wonders that has existed in Civilization II and carried on to Call to Power. However, they wish to "tweak" the rules slightly, either in the name of realism or competitive gameplay or something else. Here are some of the changes to the current rules.

2.1) Disallowing "Races to Build": No two cities in one civilization can build the same wonder at the same time. (meowser)

2.1a) CyberShy: No races allowed at all.
2.1b) kmj: Races between two civilizations should be discouraged but not disallowed by the game. A message appears, such as, "Sir, the Egyptians are believed to be working on a similar project. Shall we continue?"
2.1c) SnowFire: Disallowing switching production would severely handicap the AI. A player can always buy the wonder at the last minute, leaving the computer with a great deal of wasted production.
2.1d) ErikNYC: Left-over production could be converted into trade, food, science, or some other variable related to the Wonder being constructed.
2.1e) Stefu: Don't disallow races. Disallow rush-building Wonders. This would make races more interesting. (Trying various ways of cranking up production).
2.1f) NotLikeTea: Don't disallow rush-building Wonders. Limit it. Allow 10% rush-building per turn at a high cost.
2.1g) Jimmy: Disallow switching production. How can Pyramid builders suddenly start building Leonardo's Workshop?
2.1h) Theben: Do not allow civilizations to continue building Wonders that are already built; they can "upgrade" a city improvement to a mini-wonder or world's greatest, or simply receive a mini-wonder/world's greatest from scratch as a kind of consolation prize.

2.2) Visible Wonders: Certain Wonders would appear in the city radius as impressive graphics. They would not confer any bonus to the worker on that square. (EnochF)

2.2a) meowser: Visible wonders should be vulnerable to pillage (without direct assault on the city).
2.2b) Ecce Homo: All Wonders should be visible. If it's not visible, it's not a Wonder (Women's Suffrage, Internet, Emancipation Act are thus disallowed)

2.3) Gradual Wonder Obsolescence: Wonders should not cease all effects on obsolescence, but gradually "phase out" over a few turns. (Zorloc)

2.3a) Zakalwe: Suggests something similar for captured wonders. Effects do not take effect immediately.
2.3b) kmj: No advance should make more than one Wonder obsolete.
2.3c) Russell: An advance discovered by a faraway civilization should not make your wonder go obsolete. This should only happen when you've encountered the civilization directly.
2.3d) Ecce Homo: Wonders should not "go obsolete." They should become irrelevant. Examples: Great Library will only give Ancient or Medieval advances. Great Wall does not protect against gunpowder units. Thus, Great Wall will always protect against Legions, whether or not Metallurgy has been discovered.

2.4) Wonders as a Civilization-Wide Project: Wonders are not built on the level of the city at all. Instead of being a city project, they are built by the entire civilization, using X% of total production or some such thing. Wonders thus do not appear in cities but in a special "wonder screen." (meowser)

2.4a) Fugi the Great: Wonders built by engineers or terraformers rather than X% of production. Increase costs of Wonders.
2.4b) Eggman: Instead, have cities "funnel" their production into building the Wonder. Instead of having cities build caravans, which add to production, "eliminate the middleman." A city could dedicate its production (or a percentage) to building a Wonder.

2.5) Wonder Deterrents: Random negative effects for more powerful wonders. Leonardo's might leave a percentage of units not upgraded. Lighthouse has a chance to burn out each turn. (Ufa)

2.5a) EnochF: As an alternative to random effects, use constant negative effects instead. Increased pollution or corruption in the host city, slight happiness reduction for the civilization, high maintenance cost in gold, or something along those lines.
2.5b) EnochF: Example: if the Great Library is ever captured, your civilization may lose all the technology it provided.

2.6) Re-buildable Wonders: Only if two rival civilizations are building the same wonder, the second civilization to complete the wonder receives a "compensation" bonus of happiness or gold. The first civilization receives the standard wonder effect. (meowser)

2.6a) Fugi the Great: Civs can build the same Wonder and call it something different.
2.6b) wheathin: Wonders should be only those things which are not reproducible; everything else is a city improvement of some kind, but mini-wonders could work as a middle step.
2.6c) paraclet: Favors off button, or that all civilizations should be able to build each Wonder once. Once a Wonder is built, all civilizations could build a corresponding "national project," i.e., Leonardo's equivalent would be National Academy of Technology.
2.6d) Flavor Dave: Wonders should be built only once. This incorporates important choices in the strategy of the game.
2.6e) Q Cubed: Multiple clones of a Wonder are a poor alternative to the "unfair advantage" of one civilization having dominion over one Wonder. A re-buildable Wonder wouldn't be a Wonder.

2.7) Evolving Wonders Through the Ages: Wonder effects which change as the ages progress. Pyramids act as granary early on, then change to gold bonus. Olympic Games provide extra gold, cease to function in Renaissance, then increase happiness in later ages, etc. Aging wonders may incur higher and higher maintenance costs. (Eggman)

2.7a) EnochF: All obsolete wonders generate tourism gold.
2.7b) SnowFire: Aging wonders should not incur maintenance costs simply because they are obsolete. However, maintenance costs for certain Wonders may be feasible.
2.7c) EdCase: When a Wonder goes obsolete, adds 10% to income of the city.
2.7d) Depp: The game's more fun when Wonders never go obsolete.

2.8) Culture Specific Wonders: Certain Wonders are only constructible by certain civilizations. Which civilization can build which Wonder may be randomized at the beginning of the game. (meowser)

2.8a) kmj: Disagrees with cultural wonders, warns against "factions" rather than civilizations, which might work in SMAC but not in Civilization III.
2.8b) (Many disagreements)

2.9) Uncertainty of Wonder Effects: Effects of wonders should not be predefined. Effects of the Wonder should only become clear to the builder X number of years after it is built. (CyberShy)

2.10) Shared Wonder Effects in Alliance: Also suggested in the Diplomacy list. All civilizations allied with each other receive the effects of each other's Wonders. (meowser)

2.11) Cooperative Wonder Building: Certain limited Wonders could be jointly built by a conglomeration of nations. United Nations is an obvious choice. (meowser)

2.12) Name Your Own Wonder: Hoover Dam may be called Aswan or Three Gorges or London Dam. Forbidden City may be called Imperial Palace, Throne Hall of Persepolis, Palace of Versailles or Atlanta Palace. The Agency may be called FBI, CIA, KGB, KLA or KMJ Killer Squad. (kmj)

2.12a) Trachmyr: The game should suggest a few key names.
2.12b) Flavor Dave: Naming your own wonder would offset America-centrism.

2.13) Wonder Cost Affected by World Type: Certain wonders are more beneficial in certain worlds. Lighthouse and Magellan are more useful in watery worlds; Marco Polo for large worlds. Thus, they would cost more shields in such worlds and less in other worlds. (Theben)

2.14) Destroy Wonder: The spy ability to destroy a Wonder in an enemy city. In SMAC terminology, counts as an atrocity. (Stefu)

2.14a) Mo: Alternate idea. If a city containing a Wonder is destroyed, the Wonder will remain visible in one of the city squares (assumes Visible Wonders are implemented). Any civilization which builds a city near the wonder gains "part of its effects."
2.14b) meowser: Visible wonders should be vulnerable to pillage. (This is a suggestion made a while ago on the subject of "visible wonders.")

2.15) Delayed Availability: Merely having researched the appropriate technology does not immediately allow the construction of the Wonder associated with that technology. There is a cumulative chance each turn that someone will "think up" the Wonder, making it available for your civilization to build. (Ufa)

3. IMPLEMENTATION OF WONDERS    TOP

This is a tricky category. Some people want to tweak the way Wonders affect the game and the way in which we think about Wonders. For example:

3.1) Programmable Wonders: A long series of flags allows players to redefine current wonders and create new ones to a much larger extent. Any Wonders dropped from the final release of the game might still persist as possible game effects to be used by scenario and modpack designers. (EnochF)

3.2) Wonders Off Option: An option in the game menu to disallow all wonder effects (and even the ability to build wonders). Alternatively, an option to "tone down" wonders, maybe decrease effects by half wherever possible. (kmj)

3.2a) Ufa: A "modifier" for wonders, like Civilization II's modifier for barbarians
3.2b) Mark_Everson: Disallow wonders that count as an improvement in every city. Wonders that never go obsolete are unbalancing.
3.2c) Ecce Homo: Suggests Pyramid be city improvement, thus Great Pyramid = world's greatest

3.3) "Culture" Partly Defined by Wonders: Part of a larger system suggested in other forums. The Wonders a player builds help define a new game element called "culture," which may affect a civilization's war readiness, science, economy, government, even graphical representation on screen. A fairly radical reordering of traditional Civilization. Bears resemblance to "social engineering" as found in SMAC. (Trachmyr)

3.3a) Darkstarr: Special Projects could be mechanisms for adjusting social engineering.

3.4) Universal Wonder Effects: Growing out of Sieve Too's Internet Wonder. Many wonders provide benefits to all civilizations, i.e. the Olympic Games open to all who choose to participate, Wormhole Sensor, Apollo, Manhattan, etc. (Ecce Homo)

3.4a) willko: Disagrees. Wonders should have localizable benefits to the city they are built in (e.g., Lighthouse only functions at X distance maximum). Any wonder with a "universal" benefit should have a separate "non-universal" benefit, i.e. Manhattan Project also grants +25% science.

3.5) Eliminating Eurocentrism and Americacentrism: Consensus is that the Wonders are Eurocentric or Americacentric. There is a call for more international Wonders. Several are listed in the Suggested Wonders section. (too many to list)

3.5a) Areas for consideration: Russia has been passed over for Wonders. The Americas are under-represented, except for the United States, which is over-represented.

3.6) Eliminating Person-Based Wonders: Wonders such as Shakespeare's Theater would be eliminated. Instead, "Great Leader" units would pop up occasionally. (Bubba)

3.7) Seven Wonders per Age: Every age would have exactly seven Wonders (mrtemba)

4. SPECIFIC WONDER SUGGESTIONS    TOP

Finally, there have been countless suggestions, in the course of this thread, for specific Wonders people want to see in Civilization III. A lot of them are absolutely terrible, a lot are appropriate, and a few are practically incontestable. I'll let you decide which are which. First, though, there are some rather important suggestions.

4.1) Internet: A suggestion that provoked a huge response of support. The Internet wonder would provide benefits to not only the host civilization, but all civilizations with the Computers advance. Sparked the discussion about "universal" wonders. (Sieve Too)

4.1a) anachron: Internet should be a technological advance, not a Wonder.
4.1b) (many agreements)

4.2) New Eiffel Tower: The Eiffel Tower would prevent other civilizations from sneak-attacking you. (Bird)

4.2a) Sieve Too: Suggests the new Eiffel Tower plus United Nations might be an unfair combination. Suggests instead a permanent, unbreakable alliance with all civilizations.
4.2b) Theben: Changed Eiffel Tower to Bill of Rights in his modpack.

4.3) Human Genome Project: Should have military ramifications, such as the ability to infect an enemy city with genetically engineered virus and start an epidemic. (anachron)

4.3a) Incidentally, the Human Genome Project is one of the few viable near-future Wonders that almost everyone can agree on. This would be an example of an NSP as described above.

4.4) Finally, the complete list of Wonder suggestions. Use at your own risk!

1. Abu Simbel
2. Admiral Nelson's Fleet: increased ship strength/movement, maybe
3. Agora (huge market in Mali, possibly, trade bonus; effect: caravans treat all squares as roads, or 6 moves, or travel over water without ships).
4. Alaskan Oil Pipeline
5. Alfred Nobel's Foundation
6. The Almagest (Ptolemy's Almagest): boost to science
7. Angel Falls
8. Angkor Wat
9. Area 51
10. Aristotle's Encyclopedia of Knowledge: boost to ancient science, but gradually declines to become a hindrance to science later on; eventually goes obsolete with Heliocentrism
11. The Aswan Dam
12. The Aztec Temple in Tenochtitlan
13. Banaue Rice Terraces
14. The Bay of Fundy
15. Borobudur Temple
16. Carnegie Steel Corporation: boost to production, I assume
17. The Channel Tunnel: connects two cities (must be constructed between two civilizations, maybe?)
18. The Clock Tower (Big Ben)
19. The CN Tower
20. The Colosseum
21. The Crystal Palace
22. Diderot's Encyclopedia: science
23. Dome on the Rock (one content per city; all civilizations with Monotheism suffer 1 unhappy per city in 4+ cities)
24. Drugs
25. Empire State Building
26. Fedreal Bureau of Investigation: veteran spies, effects of spy in every city, better protection vs. rival spies/diplomats/corporate branches, etc.
27. Francis Bacon's Royal Society: science
28. The Gateway Arch
29. The Grand Canyon
30. Grand Palace of the Soviet (diplomatic bonus)
31. The Great Barrier Reef
32. The Great Canal
33. Great General Staff (Gro?er Generalstab)
34. The Great Polis (removes negative effects of current government, fails to function if captured)
35. Ibn Battuta's Travels
36. Iguacu Falls
37. The Iliad: double movement rate of settlers and clerics
38. Imperial Navy Shipyard
39. Ise Shrine
40. Itaipu Dam
41. The Kaaba: happiness
42. King Asoka's Edict
43. KGB: same as FBI
44. Krakatoa Island
45. The Kremlin
46. The Leaning Tower
47. Lucasfilm
48. Machu Pichu
49. The Marianas Trench: underwater natural wonder
50. Mars Colony
51. The Mausoleum
52. The Mayan Temples of Mikal
53. Mines of Potosi
54. The Moai Statues
55. Mont-Saint-Michel
56. Moon Base
57. Mt. Everest
58. Mt. Fuji
59. Mt. Kilimanjaro
60. Mt. Rushmore
61. Nakamatsu's Workshop
62. The New Deal (same effect as Cure for Cancer)
63. Niagara Falls
64. The Olympic Games: happiness wonder, buildable in early ages, goes obsolete in renaissance then "turns on" again in modern times
65. Paricutin Volcano
66. The Parthenon: happiness
67. Petra
68. The Petronas Towers
69. The Polders: reclaiming land from the sea
70. Potala
71. The Queen's Dominion
72. Red Square
73. The Red-Line (Transatlantic Cable)
74. St. Basil's Cathedral
75. St. Peter's Basilica
76. SDI
77. The Shwedagon Pagoda
78. Statue of Zeus
79. Statue of Cristo Redentor: happiness
80. Stupa of Wild Goose
81. Sultan's Forge: boost to gunpowder units/cannons
82. Sydney Opera House
83. Taj Mahal
84. Temple of Artemis
85. Temple of the Inscriptions
86. Tennessee Valley Authority: increased public works, maybe...
87. Three Gorges Dam
88. The Throne Hall of Persepolis
89. The Time Tunnel (look, it wasn't my idea)
90. Trans-Siberian Railroad (will build railroads between all cities; this assumes that RR's do not allow unlimited movement, but perhaps 1/12th point per square)
91. Tycho Brahe's Observatory (Uranienborg): science
92. Victoria Falls
93. Wall Street
94. Ziggurat at Ur

PAGE 1 | PAGE 2


Apolyton Civilization Site Copyright © Daniel C. J. Quick All trademarks and trade names are the properties of their respective owners